Post Refit Garfish

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Post Refit Garfish

Unread post by Kagashi »

Since we are never going to get a space ship book that was referenced in three existing RT 2d edition books (tSC, Macross, and Masters), I am going to be talking about what the Garfish Class Shadow Dimension Light Cruiser should be statted out with.

The Garfish described in tSC (Super Dimension Light Cruiser) works fine for 2031-2042 era campaigns, but by primary source materials, the ships the RPG describes do not work for an actual Haydonite campaign or post Reflex Point campaign (which tSC RPG is supposedly written for). Obviously, many of the Garfish class ships were refit to include upgraded and new weapon systems and features than the original ships had. This likely happened during the time period when the Tokugawa and the SDF-3 were refit by L'Ron after Edwards disabled the original version of SDF-3 with the Icarus. Clearly, not all Garfish were refit, as non-refit, 21st Mars Division, Garfish made their assault on Reflex Point in 2042. We do not see these refit craft until the 2044 assault on Reflex Point.

These refit craft still retain their intention of being Light Modular Super Dimension hulls, but have upgraded weapons and systems which appear to be common to all variants.

- The older HPC-SL240 triple barreled cannons appear to be replaced by a three barreled version of the Shimakaze's HPC-SC320 320mm cannons. I'd triple the damage of the single barrel blast described on the Shimakaze since the Shimakaze only has two barrels and the Garfish clearly has three. All else would remain the same.
- The original forward firing HM-6 Heavy Missile Launchers appear to have been retained.
- In addition to the HM-6, the new Garfish also has a series of eight tubed HM-1 along the midsection of the hull near the engines. Use the same stats as the Shimakaze's HM-1 but modify for having eight vertical tubes, as opposed to 30.
- The MLWS-40 lasers seem to have been replaced with MLWS-60s (the pics have similar guns to those of the Shimakaze), but the Prelude Graphic Novel only has single barrels extending from the ports and can only be seen in the top view of the craft, thus only four ports remain. Use the same stats for the MLWS-60 lasers as per the Shimakaze.
- The biggest change would be the fact that in The Shadow Chronicles movie, Garfish are clearly seen employing Shadow Devices and Prelude shows a cut away of the front of the ship that employs a Type I Capital Class Synchro Cannon the same used on a Shimakaze (except the Shimakaze's is always exposed and a Garfish's is concealed and is only visible when the maw opens, similar to older Zentraedi craft).

The only variant depicted in either The Shadow Chronicles movie, Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comic, or Art of the Shadow Chronicles other than the standard Hangar Module (which should be no change from tSC), is the Science and Reconnaissance Module. In neither the comic or the movie do we really see this thing in action, but we do see the effects of their work in the comics. Its capabilities should be similar to that of a EC-33B Tiger's Eye TAWACS as far as the radar and C4 data link is concerned. In the comics, they obviously were monitoring the Neutron S missiles from 500 megameters (310K miles) away, so additional sensors such as IR, UV, optical and so on are likely to be present. Since this is a science and reconnaissance vessel, it is doubtful it employs any traditional Electronic Attack capabilities, especially since the Invid do not really use standard communication (they use telepathy) or radar waves as detection like the Zentraedi and Masters did, so traditional jammers simply do not work anyway. The Invid use Electo Magnetic Sensors that detect natural EM spectrum emissions (no range listed), Protoculture sensors, and optics as their means of detection. But I can see the possiblitiy of the UEEF developing EM spoofers similarly to how Lancer created a Protoculture spoofer on Earth to battle the Invid in the Electronic Warfare realm.

These new features are obviously working against the UEEF as far the Haydonites are concerned. As machines, they clearly utilize wireless technology as they pass data to each other as shown in the movie and they also employ traditional jamming techniques against the UEEF whom were used to fighting the Invid for the past 20 years or so whom never applied those TTPs against the humans. It may behoove the UEEF to reexplore the concept of traditional communication, data link, and radar jamming as well as explore communication and detection in a degraded enviornment like the days of the Global Civil War. Time to retrieve those VEF-1 Loki's from mothballed service.

But clearly, the Syncho Cannons and Shadow devices need to be disabled, as described in tSC RPG, now that the Haydonites can employ their Trojan Horse any time they find an active device.

As far as armor is concerned, in the movie, the Invid threw a similar defense at the Jupiter division as it did against the 21st Mars Division (Clamshells and Armored Scouts with boosters). Garfish were still being torn apart by kamikaze style attacks, thus I do not advocate adjusting the MDC levels described in tSC RPG.
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Re: Post Refit Garfish

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

personally i'm not convinced it's a refit. as in, i don't think that they took old Garfish's and rebuilt them. there are enough changes to the hull shape and size (it is slightly wider) that i beleive these were new builds, a new sub-class. rather like how the Arleigh Burke class destroyers got a hull extension and extra weapons (as well as various parts moved around) when they switched from building the Flight I to Flight II versions. (not an ideal comparison since the changes involved there were comparatively minor). we saw similar with the Perry class Frigates as well, in a switch between short hull and long hull versions.

thus you'd still have the new Generation "carrier" version around, probably with its own shadow tech refit (and perhaps minor changes like the turret guns being swapped out)

further changes between the classes would probably be internal. the loss of the internal mecha bays to make room for the extra missiles and the bow cannon seems likely for example.

as far as the science package.. well we know from the art of shadow chronicles material the garfish class in general uses a modular docking port. so the hanger module and sensor package are both going to be stuff any garfish can carry. makes them fairly flexible. (for the RPG i'd imagine there would be other modules as well, like cargo bay modules, and ones for carrying ground troops. the module system would also make it easier to update to new mecha.. if you need room for say, a VF-1 sized mecha you could just build a new module type with hanger bays for the bigger units.)

in regards to the science package contents.. a powerful radar seems likely, but i'd not expect EW gear. it's main goal is scientific study after all. so a powerful radar optimized for remote imaging, another for penetrating materials and giving a look at interior composition/shapes, spectrographic sensors for determining compositions, star types, etc. as well as a slew of particle sensors to measure things like radiation and solar wind (photons, alpha and beta particles) as well as the more exotic stuff (quarks, neutrino's, muons, mesons, etc.) that can give you some good data on stellar events, scientific oddities, and the nature of various technological processes. as well as a computer system designed to take all the data from such sensors and crunch it into results that can be used by scientists.

however i could see an EW module with combat oriented radar and powerful jamming gear. though i tend to assume human ships have a fair bit of jamming gear built in already to help offset their more limited weapons ranges. sure the zents and tyrolians may have a range advantage, but that doesn't help much if you have to get in close to be able to target anything reliably. human mecha seem to focus more on EW than the alien stuff as well so extending that to the ships seems logical.
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Re: Post Refit Garfish

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Kagashi wrote:Obviously, many of the Garfish class ships were refit to include upgraded and new weapon systems and features than the original ships had. This likely happened during the time period when the Tokugawa and the SDF-3 were refit by L'Ron after Edwards disabled the original version of SDF-3 with the Icarus. Clearly, not all Garfish were refit, as non-refit, 21st Mars Division, Garfish made their assault on Reflex Point in 2042. We do not see these refit craft until the 2044 assault on Reflex Point.

Canonically speaking, the retrofit to incorporate shadow technology into the UEEF fleet occurred 2043-2044.

At the time the 2nd ERF operation began, the UEEF had not yet discovered the existence of shadow technology... so all Garfish-class ships were still of the type seen in the first episode of the New Generation.



Kagashi wrote:- The older HPC-SL240 triple barreled cannons appear to be replaced by a three barreled version of the Shimakaze's HPC-SC320 320mm cannons. I'd triple the damage of the single barrel blast described on the Shimakaze since the Shimakaze only has two barrels and the Garfish clearly has three. All else would remain the same.

Based on the official writeup and the animation, I would have to disagree... it doesn't look like the ventral gun turret was one of the systems affected by the modifications. There were some minor stylistic refinements made when they went to a CG model, but they don't seem to have actually changed the turret's design any, and it's not described as having changed during the retrofit.



Kagashi wrote:- In addition to the HM-6, the new Garfish also has a series of eight tubed HM-1 along the midsection of the hull near the engines. Use the same stats as the Shimakaze's HM-1 but modify for having eight vertical tubes, as opposed to 30.

Officially, it has twelve VLS-type missile launcher systems similar to the Shimakaze-class's 30 VLS-type missile launchers on the ventral hull. (AotSC pg139)

The art shows what appears to be twenty hatches in total though...



Kagashi wrote:- The MLWS-40 lasers seem to have been replaced with MLWS-60s (the pics have similar guns to those of the Shimakaze), but the Prelude Graphic Novel only has single barrels extending from the ports and can only be seen in the top view of the craft, thus only four ports remain. Use the same stats for the MLWS-60 lasers as per the Shimakaze.

The pre-retrofit version did not possess the dorsal anti-aircraft gun turrets, the post-retrofit version has four that are, as you say, the same time employed on the Shimakaze-class.



Kagashi wrote:- The biggest change would be the fact that in The Shadow Chronicles movie, Garfish are clearly seen employing Shadow Devices and Prelude shows a cut away of the front of the ship that employs a Type I Capital Class Synchro Cannon the same used on a Shimakaze (except the Shimakaze's is always exposed and a Garfish's is concealed and is only visible when the maw opens, similar to older Zentraedi craft).

AotSC's writeup makes this into an interchangeable modular weapons bay in the forward hull on the combat version of the shadow retrofit Garfish... though only the synchro cannon module is actually depicted. The writeup in the stats section seems to imply that the science variant did not receive the modular weapons bay update.



Kagashi wrote:In neither the comic or the movie do we really see this thing in action, but we do see the effects of their work in the comics. Its capabilities should be similar to that of a EC-33B Tiger's Eye TAWACS as far as the radar and C4 data link is concerned. In the comics, they obviously were monitoring the Neutron S missiles from 500 megameters (310K miles) away, so additional sensors such as IR, UV, optical and so on are likely to be present. Since this is a science and reconnaissance vessel, it is doubtful it employs any traditional Electronic Attack capabilities, especially since the Invid do not really use standard communication (they use telepathy) or radar waves as detection like the Zentraedi and Masters did, so traditional jammers simply do not work anyway. The Invid use Electo Magnetic Sensors that detect natural EM spectrum emissions (no range listed), Protoculture sensors, and optics as their means of detection. But I can see the possiblitiy of the UEEF developing EM spoofers similarly to how Lancer created a Protoculture spoofer on Earth to battle the Invid in the Electronic Warfare realm.

The description in AotSC makes this a "science and exploration" variant, which to me suggests that its sensor array is probably not military in nature... though if it's for surveying planets, one would expect a variety of relevant sensors for assessing planets and a host of stellar phenomena including a variety of high gain cameras in different spectra, a fairly powerful radar for terrain mapping and geophysical surveying, likely a LIDAR system (same purposes), and various other more SF-y sensors for measuring things like gravitation, hyperspace effects, etc.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't have any electronic attack capabilities though... if nothing else, a powerful RADAR system could be turned into an impromptu attack system by turning the power to max and blasting the enemy with radar noise... or even inflicting physical harm on the enemy with the high-intensity radar. (This was an OSM-ly noted capability of the radar on the SDR-04-Mk.XIV Phalanx destroid.)
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Re: Post Refit Garfish

Unread post by Kagashi »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Kagashi wrote:Obviously, many of the Garfish class ships were refit to include upgraded and new weapon systems and features than the original ships had. This likely happened during the time period when the Tokugawa and the SDF-3 were refit by L'Ron after Edwards disabled the original version of SDF-3 with the Icarus. Clearly, not all Garfish were refit, as non-refit, 21st Mars Division, Garfish made their assault on Reflex Point in 2042. We do not see these refit craft until the 2044 assault on Reflex Point.

Canonically speaking, the retrofit to incorporate shadow technology into the UEEF fleet occurred 2043-2044.

At the time the 2nd ERF operation began, the UEEF had not yet discovered the existence of shadow technology... so all Garfish-class ships were still of the type seen in the first episode of the New Generation.


Are you concurring? Cause I think that's what I said.

Do you have a definitive timeframe of the refits? The best I can find is the old RT.com described the Tokugawa as being 2043 and the SDF-3 being 2044 (despite Prelude showing them being worked on at the same time). But no dates are actually thrown around other than "one year later" in Prelude proper.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Kagashi wrote:- The older HPC-SL240 triple barreled cannons appear to be replaced by a three barreled version of the Shimakaze's HPC-SC320 320mm cannons. I'd triple the damage of the single barrel blast described on the Shimakaze since the Shimakaze only has two barrels and the Garfish clearly has three. All else would remain the same.

Based on the official writeup and the animation, I would have to disagree... it doesn't look like the ventral gun turret was one of the systems affected by the modifications. There were some minor stylistic refinements made when they went to a CG model, but they don't seem to have actually changed the turret's design any, and it's not described as having changed during the retrofit.


Just an assumption from me due to the similar style of the new ships/refits.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Kagashi wrote:- In addition to the HM-6, the new Garfish also has a series of eight tubed HM-1 along the midsection of the hull near the engines. Use the same stats as the Shimakaze's HM-1 but modify for having eight vertical tubes, as opposed to 30.

Officially, it has twelve VLS-type missile launcher systems similar to the Shimakaze-class's 30 VLS-type missile launchers on the ventral hull. (AotSC pg139)

The art shows what appears to be twenty hatches in total though...


Ha, good catch. The art in Prelude (Graphic Novel version) shows only the rear eight which is what I was basing off of. In the cut away of the synchro cannon in Prelude, I find it hard that the forward twelve (shown in AotCS) could exist in the same space as the syncho cannon. Perhaps there are two different versions? A missile boat role and a mobile syncho cannon role? unless the rear eight are not missile launchers, despite a big red arrow pointing to it saying 'missile launchers' in Prelude.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Kagashi wrote:- The MLWS-40 lasers seem to have been replaced with MLWS-60s (the pics have similar guns to those of the Shimakaze), but the Prelude Graphic Novel only has single barrels extending from the ports and can only be seen in the top view of the craft, thus only four ports remain. Use the same stats for the MLWS-60 lasers as per the Shimakaze.

The pre-retrofit version did not possess the dorsal anti-aircraft gun turrets, the post-retrofit version has four that are, as you say, the same time employed on the Shimakaze-class.


Aye, however, KS included MLSW-40s in the tSC RPG for some reason, despite the art in tSC RPG not even showing where the turrets would be. Since this is an RPG site, I included them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Kagashi wrote:- The biggest change would be the fact that in The Shadow Chronicles movie, Garfish are clearly seen employing Shadow Devices and Prelude shows a cut away of the front of the ship that employs a Type I Capital Class Synchro Cannon the same used on a Shimakaze (except the Shimakaze's is always exposed and a Garfish's is concealed and is only visible when the maw opens, similar to older Zentraedi craft).

AotSC's writeup makes this into an interchangeable modular weapons bay in the forward hull on the combat version of the shadow retrofit Garfish... though only the synchro cannon module is actually depicted. The writeup in the stats section seems to imply that the science variant did not receive the modular weapons bay update.


True. It appears the modular system isnt as modular as KS describes in tSC RPG. Reality is more like how a C-130 and an AC-130 share the same -130 airframe, but extensive modifications are needed to make the aircraft an AC-130. Its not as simple as just pulling off a panel and snapping in a 105mm cannon, which is pretty much how KS described going from troop carrier to science vessel in tSC RPG. The internal workings between the two variants (possibly three if you use the art from Prelude Graphic Novel) are different and require a lot more than detaching the troop carrier and picking up the science package.

glitterboy2098 wrote:personally i'm not convinced it's a refit. as in, i don't think that they took old Garfish's and rebuilt them. there are enough changes to the hull shape and size (it is slightly wider) that i beleive these were new builds, a new sub-class.


If RT.com (old site, mecha comparison page) and AotSC didnt describe them as refits, I would concur. I think the differences you are seeing is the difference between 80s 2D traditional animation vs 2000s 3D CGI.
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Re: Post Refit Garfish

Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

Kagashi wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:personally i'm not convinced it's a refit. as in, i don't think that they took old Garfish's and rebuilt them. there are enough changes to the hull shape and size (it is slightly wider) that i beleive these were new builds, a new sub-class.


If RT.com (old site, mecha comparison page) and AotSC didnt describe them as refits, I would concur. I think the differences you are seeing is the difference between 80s 2D traditional animation vs 2000s 3D CGI.


Well i am gonna say the New 3D versions do make them look like a new model/class of Garfish and I was actually expecting that when the TSC rpg came out. But I can chalk it up to the new way it was animated. though i would love to have two class's for the Garfish.


As for the EW stuff, I can see that being apart of a science array as well, there is no reason why those antennas could not be used for such a purpose. I would not disagree that there could be a ultra powerful Array designed for warfare and the extremely long range exploration, since space folding is gonna take you out there along ways beyond satellites ranges. Multi purpose toys make it more useful when you have limited supplies and personnel.


I cannot see any of the ships giving away to much of their hanger space, since the primary mecha used in space is the veritech, and your gonna need room for repairs and parts storage. Especially if the ships are playing any type of patrol duty.
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Re: Post Refit Garfish

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Kagashi wrote:Are you concurring? Cause I think that's what I said.

I'm concurring with precision, yes. :-D



Kagashi wrote:Do you have a definitive timeframe of the refits? The best I can find is the old RT.com described the Tokugawa as being 2043 and the SDF-3 being 2044 (despite Prelude showing them being worked on at the same time). But no dates are actually thrown around other than "one year later" in Prelude proper.

Round numbers only, I'm afraid... but as Tommy has it, the events of Prelude's final issues are in the early months of 2044, which puts the retrofit program in approximately Summer 2043 to Summer 2044.



Kagashi wrote:Ha, good catch. The art in Prelude (Graphic Novel version) shows only the rear eight which is what I was basing off of. In the cut away of the synchro cannon in Prelude, I find it hard that the forward twelve (shown in AotCS) could exist in the same space as the syncho cannon. Perhaps there are two different versions? A missile boat role and a mobile syncho cannon role? unless the rear eight are not missile launchers, despite a big red arrow pointing to it saying 'missile launchers' in Prelude.

I'm using AotSC for reference... and the weird part is the red arrow is labeling the rear eight hatches as missile launchers, but the count given is twelve, which only accounts for the forward two rows of six. I would think that those wouldn't be affected by those other modifications, since the one alternative fitting for the modular weapons bay that was shown in roughed-out sketches was a version that had a fixed-forward missile array inside the synchro cannon mount. That version seems to have been dropped in the development of the film, though.

Initially, Tommy seems to have been leaning toward making the Garfish-class fill a role similar role in the UEEF to what the Northampton-class stealth frigates fill in Macross's UN Spacy. One ubiquitous class of escorts built such that with little modification they can cover a diverse array of operational roles like frigate, guided missile destroyer, cruiser, light carrier, or pilot fleet explorers.



Kagashi wrote:Aye, however, KS included MLSW-40s in the tSC RPG for some reason, despite the art in tSC RPG not even showing where the turrets would be. Since this is an RPG site, I included them.

I'd leave them out of the pre-retrofit version, since they were added to the Ikazuchi-class during that ship's retrofit too... their pedestals aren't on the designs until the CG models.



Kagashi wrote:If RT.com (old site, mecha comparison page) and AotSC didnt describe them as refits, I would concur. I think the differences you are seeing is the difference between 80s 2D traditional animation vs 2000s 3D CGI.
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