Missing Invid in REF Marines

[ShadowLogan]

That sort of mega-scale architecture is a bit beyond them... or, really, anyone else in Robotech.

I'm not so sure. They don't necessarily need to do one big structure, they could do a network of smaller structures.

The Russians deployed a mirror in space that was 65ft (~19.8m) in diameter in the early 90s and a larger one in the late 90s (this 2nd mission failed to deploy), it didn't send that much light down (several full Moon's worth at best). Still the UEEF can build structures with much larger surface areas.

The Ikazzuchi carrier is 608m long by 154m wide by 177m tall (per Art of the Shadow Chornicles, I'm ignoring the "engine shield/antenna length that pushes it close to 700m, going by the official size line per HG). That means the UEEF can build structures at least 608m x 177m. Since the Tokugawa, SDF-3/4 all have lengths of over 1000meters, Ark-Angel class is over 2,000meters and are much bigger than an Ik. So they can clearly build space mirrors (reflectors) or shades in the 2000m diameter size, and they can build multiple instances of them.

Nor does it require it to be a pure human invention if we are involving the Sentinels in the effort (they did help with SDF-3 restoration and developing Shadow Tech per Prelude).

Now getting a network to offer that much coverage of course might be beyond them, but I'm not sure of that either. All those ships have internal decking so the area of a ship isn't really x2 (top/bottom), but also include each deck (they have floors) since they aren't single deck ships. And depending on the approach you might not need as many either (a sun shade will need millions, Space Mirror/reflectors fewer).

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/05/world ... -dark.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/04/world ... night.html

It could also be intercepted fairly easily within the known capabilities of the Regess and her swarm.

The UEEF could escort the space rocks in to screen them form counter mecha action. Plus the Rocks could also be sent on higher energy trajectories, and won't need to slow down on approach like the UEEF escorts (unless those escorts are sucidal). The Regis's ability to do anything about the rocks will come down to using the Pheonix method of travel, not a real solution or she would have used it to swatt the UEEF fleets of the 10th & 21st MD, and the TSC/Ep84-5 Fleet and not sacrifice a part of their collective.

There is an issue with lead time I admit, but don't think Fold solution is the answer. The UEEF knows they have to take their time to build up their forces for a given attack.

And from a cost perspective, the UEEF builds missiles the size of their largest battleships (N-S Missiles). Those missiles use a lot of PC to move, so using space rocks would seem to be the PC friendly solution. Not to mention no one knows the full power of the NS missiles when they decide to use them, they would with asteroids or comets.

[Seto Kaiba]

You do not need to sacrifice a ship or human life, you fold in a low orbit and let that rock go. gravity will pull it straight down. well maybe at a curve but its gonna fall. and she can do whatever she wants she is not gonna see that .
anyway it goes the flower of life is gone.

You're never going to get a straight line out of orbital mechanics... it just doesn't happen. The most likely results of attempting to carry out a straight-line orbital intercept like that are missing the target completely, a slingshot elliptical orbit, or a slow decaying orbit that could take months to reach its inevitable end. Even then, how are they going to accelerate that rock? Objects inside of hyperspace fold bubbles are not, themselves, moving. The fold bubble is.

Also, with a maximum fold bubble diameter of 1.6km (1 mile), a UEEF ship is not going to be able to carry a rock big enough to do the kind of damage you're talking about in one fell swoop. Assuming they find a rock dense enough to not completely ablate away during reentry or explode in midair instead of striking ground, you're looking at something more along the lines of the impact that created the Steinheim crater in Germany in the Miocene era. Yeah, it'll hit like a nuke, but you're not looking at a climate-altering boom here unless you fling dozens or hundreds of such rocks at extremely high velocities.

Actually its evident that the lower cast are stupid. turn off mecha lay it down and hide. humans run/ride into tall grass and turn everything off and they ignore them. its not till the higher cast come along that they use any true signs of intelligence.

According to the RPG, the Invid's default reaction to a perceived threat is to destroy it... and according to Page 14 of the core book the Invid are more than smart enough to destroy a potential threat even if it's stopped attacking them. The reason for the behavior you refer to is cited as being that they shut off the protoculture power source, hid the vehicle/weapon and the person using it, and remain unspotted by the Invid they attacked.

she turned her people into energy.

To move across interplanetary distances, yes... but for planetary defense she had those wonderful carriers.

Solor sails could do the job. and they could be down cheep and with little effort compared to building a NS missile.

Building enough to alter a planet's climate and deploying them in a way that will enable them to function for long enough to have an effect that the Invid can't counter? That's a significant investment of resources right there, and there really wasn't any effort behind building the Neutron-S missiles. The UEEF captured the warheads in Optera's orbit and the delivery system was a pre-existing, and superfluous, line of rejected colony ships that they'd already built.

The Ikazzuchi carrier is 608m long by 154m wide by 177m tall (per Art of the Shadow Chornicles, I'm ignoring the "engine shield/antenna length that pushes it close to 700m, going by the official size line per HG). That means the UEEF can build structures at least 608m x 177m. Since the Tokugawa, SDF-3/4 all have lengths of over 1000meters, Ark-Angel class is over 2,000meters and are much bigger than an Ik. So they can clearly build space mirrors (reflectors) or shades in the 2000m diameter size, and they can build multiple instances of them.

The big ships are an investment of years of time and material... and the UEEF's resources were so tight thanks to their war with the Regent that they couldn't even afford to spare Alpha fighters for the 1st Earth Reclamation Force. Building something like Mobile Suit Gundam's Solar System on a scale large enough to affect a planet's climate probably isn't in the cards.

The UEEF could escort the space rocks in to screen them form counter mecha action.

They could try... but it must be admitted that their track record for escorting things down into the atmosphere of post-Invid Earth is worthy of the 2008 Detroit Lions.

And from a cost perspective, the UEEF builds missiles the size of their largest battleships (N-S Missiles). Those missiles use a lot of PC to move, so using space rocks would seem to be the PC friendly solution. Not to mention no one knows the full power of the NS missiles when they decide to use them, they would with asteroids or comets.

Moving space rocks on the scale we're talking is going to require an expenditure of protoculture rivaling or exceeding moving the neutron-s missiles, either because you'll be moving a handful of rocks that dwarf the UEEF fleet with some kind of purpose-built special fold engine, or hundreds of smaller rocks using a fleet of individual ships.

If they don't fold 'em, there's a massive amount of lead time for the Invid to mount an interception mission.

[Lt Gargoyle]

You do not need to sacrifice a ship or human life, you fold in a low orbit and let that rock go. gravity will pull it straight down. well maybe at a curve but its gonna fall. and she can do whatever she wants she is not gonna see that .
anyway it goes the flower of life is gone.

You're never going to get a straight line out of orbital mechanics... it just doesn't happen. The most likely results of attempting to carry out a straight-line orbital intercept like that are missing the target completely, a slingshot elliptical orbit, or a slow decaying orbit that could take months to reach its inevitable end. Even then, how are they going to accelerate that rock? Objects inside of hyperspace fold bubbles are not, themselves, moving. The fold bubble is.

Also, with a maximum fold bubble diameter of 1.6km (1 mile), a UEEF ship is not going to be able to carry a rock big enough to do the kind of damage you're talking about in one fell swoop. Assuming they find a rock dense enough to not completely ablate away during reentry or explode in midair instead of striking ground, you're looking at something more along the lines of the impact that created the Steinheim crater in Germany in the Miocene era. Yeah, it'll hit like a nuke, but you're not looking at a climate-altering boom here unless you fling dozens or hundreds of such rocks at extremely high velocities.

With Robotech Engine tech the could fly just attach a cable to the big old rock and fly them to earth, This could have been done while fleet was being rebuilt, So size is not an issue. And to destroy the planets climate you do not need that big of a mass. A mile size rock can put enough debris into the atmosphere to drop the temperature by several degrees. And since the Flower of life is a make believe plant we do not know if that slight change will or will not kill it. But Its less costly in life then the armed conflict.

Actually its evident that the lower cast are stupid. turn off mecha lay it down and hide. humans run/ride into tall grass and turn everything off and they ignore them. its not till the higher cast come along that they use any true signs of intelligence.

According to the RPG, the Invid's default reaction to a perceived threat is to destroy it... and according to Page 14 of the core book the Invid are more than smart enough to destroy a potential threat even if it's stopped attacking them. The reason for the behavior you refer to is cited as being that they shut off the protoculture power source, hid the vehicle/weapon and the person using it, and remain unspotted by the Invid they attacked.

the big difference is how do you know they would see the rock as a threat in space. its a floating rock in space. I think they would need the Regess's or a higher caste to say something.

she turned her people into energy.

To move across interplanetary distances, yes... but for planetary defense she had those wonderful carriers.

It was how she destroyed the NS missiles. It was not those Pretty little carriers and her Mecha.

Solor sails could do the job. and they could be down cheep and with little effort compared to building a NS missile.

Building enough to alter a planet's climate and deploying them in a way that will enable them to function for long enough to have an effect that the Invid can't counter? That's a significant investment of resources right there, and there really wasn't any effort behind building the Neutron-S missiles. The UEEF captured the warheads in Optera's orbit and the delivery system was a pre-existing, and superfluous, line of rejected colony ships that they'd already built.

Its not that hard to make, a reflective material in hexagon patterns so they can lock together. and once deployed it would block the sun at the right distance from earth. look at the moon on an eclipse. And best part, if the Invid come into space at that distance they could be shot down with missile. Like they should have done in the first place. But yea this would caste the planet in a shadow and after a month the planet would cool off. and likely kill the FoL or at least kill the current crops and hinder furture growth until she comes out and deals with it. Again she would be forced to do the whole people into energy thing.

The Ikazzuchi carrier is 608m long by 154m wide by 177m tall (per Art of the Shadow Chornicles, I'm ignoring the "engine shield/antenna length that pushes it close to 700m, going by the official size line per HG). That means the UEEF can build structures at least 608m x 177m. Since the Tokugawa, SDF-3/4 all have lengths of over 1000meters, Ark-Angel class is over 2,000meters and are much bigger than an Ik. So they can clearly build space mirrors (reflectors) or shades in the 2000m diameter size, and they can build multiple instances of them.

The big ships are an investment of years of time and material... and the UEEF's resources were so tight thanks to their war with the Regent that they couldn't even afford to spare Alpha fighters for the 1st Earth Reclamation Force. Building something like Mobile Suit Gundam's Solar System on a scale large enough to affect a planet's climate probably isn't in the cards.

Its a reflective material. Like a emergency blanket. Not that costly, nor that space consuming. I bet a handful of those Ikazzuchi carriers could easily done the work within a two week time period.

The UEEF could escort the space rocks in to screen them form counter mecha action.

They could try... but it must be admitted that their track record for escorting things down into the atmosphere of post-Invid Earth is worthy of the 2008 Detroit Lions.

So what if the Invid blow the big rock up? if the projected area is calculated correctly and using the angle of approuch, they would effectively have thousands of projectiles hitting them at such high impact speed it would cause mass damage over more area of effects. And it would not be all that slow. Unlike a natural approach this is a deliberate push/pulled rock being guided in, with zero resistance until they hit earth orbit.

And from a cost perspective, the UEEF builds missiles the size of their largest battleships (N-S Missiles). Those missiles use a lot of PC to move, so using space rocks would seem to be the PC friendly solution. Not to mention no one knows the full power of the NS missiles when they decide to use them, they would with asteroids or comets.

Moving space rocks on the scale we're talking is going to require an expenditure of protoculture rivaling or exceeding moving the neutron-s missiles, either because you'll be moving a handful of rocks that dwarf the UEEF fleet with some kind of purpose-built special fold engine, or hundreds of smaller rocks using a fleet of individual ships.

If they don't fold 'em, there's a massive amount of lead time for the Invid to mount an interception mission.

Again so what, they hit and blow these things up, and get killed by thousands of smaller one smashing all over reflex point. the damage would be so intense the UEEF could clean up with orbital bombardment with near zero resistance.

Your thinking is with modern tech. robotech space tech is beyond our modern stuff and could do this.

[Seto Kaiba]

With Robotech Engine tech the could fly just attach a cable to the big old rock and fly them to earth, This could have been done while fleet was being rebuilt, So size is not an issue.

Well, actually... the engine power thing is going to be rather an issue on its own.

Assuming there's a sufficiently strong tow cable to do the job on a chunk of rock weighing significantly more than the ship towing it, the trip is going to take weeks or even months. Ships in Robotech aren't as fast as they used to be. At cruising speed, going from the asteroid belt to Earth unencumbered is a couple days short of a five year one-way trip for the faster ships in the fleet. To use one of the bigger, shootier ones, you're looking at about seven and a half years. They top out at like Mach 20 in normal flight in space, and the cruising speed is Mach 9 on the smaller, faster ones.

Getting the ships up to their maximum achievable space speed takes about two weeks of run-up, and will still take a week at that maximum velocity to get to Earth... and that's assuming that acceleration isn't drastically curtailed by the mass of the asteroid they'd be hauling. Hauling an asteroid of sufficient mass to do that damage would drastically lengthen that period. This is a multi-month operation we're talking about, with ample opportunity for the Invid to detect and intercept it.

And to destroy the planets climate you do not need that big of a mass. A mile size rock can put enough debris into the atmosphere to drop the temperature by several degrees. And since the Flower of life is a make believe plant we do not know if that slight change will or will not kill it. But Its less costly in life then the armed conflict.

That depends on the rock's composition... not all asteroids are created equal, and impact energy is a function of both the mass at impact and its speed. You need a pretty hefty chunk of dense, metal-rich rock moving at fifteen or twenty times the speed of sound to do that kind of damage. Even then, just altering the climate a few degrees isn't guaranteed to kill off the flower of life or provide the Invid with any appreciable discomfort. The only ones an attack like that is 100% guaranteed to affect are the human slaves on Earth.

(We are, after all, talking about flowers of life that had mutated... it's an extremely adaptable species, a few degrees difference in temperature may be nothing at all to it, and it's pretty much guaranteed to be nothing at all to the Invid, who have no bones about flying around in space.)

the big difference is how do you know they would see the rock as a threat in space. its a floating rock in space. I think they would need the Regess's or a higher caste to say something.

They're pretty good about spotting metallic objects moving in near-Earth space in the series and RTSC movie... even when those objects aren't emitting protoculture signatures. I wouldn't put it past them.

It was how she destroyed the NS missiles. It was not those Pretty little carriers and her Mecha.

I know, but she destroyed several fleets with her pretty little carriers and her mecha... and an asteroid is a lot less threat than half a dozen warheads full of enough neutron star matter to turn Earth into a black hole.

Its a reflective material. Like a emergency blanket. Not that costly, nor that space consuming. I bet a handful of those Ikazzuchi carriers could easily done the work within a two week time period.

It's not as simple as all that... you have to actually be able to keep the material in its appropriate position, which requires they be outfitted with verniers and control avionics to maintain their position like any other satellite. It's not like tossing mirrors out of an airlock, you've got to actually corral them into a usable formation and keep them there for a significant period of time (and hope that the Invid don't attack).

So what if the Invid blow the big rock up? if the projected area is calculated correctly and using the angle of approuch, they would effectively have thousands of projectiles hitting them at such high impact speed it would cause mass damage over more area of effects. And it would not be all that slow. Unlike a natural approach this is a deliberate push/pulled rock being guided in, with zero resistance until they hit earth orbit.

Unless they intercept the ship before it reaches Earth orbit, push the rock into a more stable orbit, or simply destroy it with massed weapons fire or the Regess's powers, or just break it up into chunks that will safely burn up on reentry. If the asteroid is being pushed or pulled by a ship, then it's not going to be moving all that fast based on the stats...

Again so what, they hit and blow these things up, and get killed by thousands of smaller one smashing all over reflex point. the damage would be so intense the UEEF could clean up with orbital bombardment with near zero resistance.

Your thinking is with modern tech. robotech space tech is beyond our modern stuff and could do this.

Not really, no... I'm looking at the practical physics of a meteorite impact and how much mass/density you'd need to achieve your intended result, the necessary velocity, and a couple specific factors from Robotech proper and the RPG.

Yes, the technology in Robotech is more advanced than we have today... but it's more on a Gundam level than the kind of Star Trek level that would make this kind of attack easy and equally practical with just bombing the planet with actual bombs. It should be much easier for the UEEF to knock together a couple dozen Tsar Bomba equivalents and drop those in strategic places around the world to trigger the same result with a lot less effort. Bombs like that can be made small enough to shoot down to Earth disguised as comet fragments or other space junk. Either that or just running a small FTL ship into Earth at speed and letting F=MA do the work.

(Gundam's official publications actually have a pretty good explanation of why this kind of attack is fairly impractical... it gets used a lot anyway because the conventional alternative of nukes is banned by treaty.)

[Lt Gargoyle]

With Robotech Engine tech the could fly just attach a cable to the big old rock and fly them to earth, This could have been done while fleet was being rebuilt, So size is not an issue.

Well, actually... the engine power thing is going to be rather an issue on its own.

Assuming there's a sufficiently strong tow cable to do the job on a chunk of rock weighing significantly more than the ship towing it, the trip is going to take weeks or even months. Ships in Robotech aren't as fast as they used to be. At cruising speed, going from the asteroid belt to Earth unencumbered is a couple days short of a five year one-way trip for the faster ships in the fleet. To use one of the bigger, shootier ones, you're looking at about seven and a half years. They top out at like Mach 20 in normal flight in space, and the cruising speed is Mach 9 on the smaller, faster ones.

Getting the ships up to their maximum achievable space speed takes about two weeks of run-up, and will still take a week at that maximum velocity to get to Earth... and that's assuming that acceleration isn't drastically curtailed by the mass of the asteroid they'd be hauling. Hauling an asteroid of sufficient mass to do that damage would drastically lengthen that period. This is a multi-month operation we're talking about, with ample opportunity for the Invid to detect and intercept it.

I am sure they could figure it out, I mean they have 6 years in which they could have come up with something better. And even if they only use mile size space rocks with all the right material density, something they could do while they figure out which ones to grab.

And to destroy the planets climate you do not need that big of a mass. A mile size rock can put enough debris into the atmosphere to drop the temperature by several degrees. And since the Flower of life is a make believe plant we do not know if that slight change will or will not kill it. But Its less costly in life then the armed conflict.

That depends on the rock's composition... not all asteroids are created equal, and impact energy is a function of both the mass at impact and its speed. You need a pretty hefty chunk of dense, metal-rich rock moving at fifteen or twenty times the speed of sound to do that kind of damage. Even then, just altering the climate a few degrees isn't guaranteed to kill off the flower of life or provide the Invid with any appreciable discomfort. The only ones an attack like that is 100% guaranteed to affect are the human slaves on Earth.

(We are, after all, talking about flowers of life that had mutated... it's an extremely adaptable species, a few degrees difference in temperature may be nothing at all to it, and it's pretty much guaranteed to be nothing at all to the Invid, who have no bones about flying around in space.)

again it would not be that hard for them to figure it out. the earth was hit already 6 times that they can actually see. and while it did not kill all life, the one that hit with the dino's took 25% of all life. If it hit in north America, I have no doubt the Invid would be toast.

the big difference is how do you know they would see the rock as a threat in space. its a floating rock in space. I think they would need the Regess's or a higher caste to say something.

They're pretty good about spotting metallic objects moving in near-Earth space in the series and RTSC movie... even when those objects aren't emitting protoculture signatures. I wouldn't put it past them.

we really have no evidence of the Invids ability to see into space. And its not until the big giant fleet comes out that the Regess turns her attention to space. And they had to activate their shadow cloaking devises. Its possible that she spotted them before they did and then was able to keep track of them. But as pointed out by you, the Regess only has troop carriers. And they do not sit in orbit, but carry the invid into space.

It was how she destroyed the NS missiles. It was not those Pretty little carriers and her Mecha.

I know, but she destroyed several fleets with her pretty little carriers and her mecha... and an asteroid is a lot less threat than half a dozen warheads full of enough neutron star matter to turn Earth into a black hole.

Again there is not evidence of her true ability. I am not saying the half dozen missiles would not be more devastating, but only the astroids are plausible.

Its a reflective material. Like a emergency blanket. Not that costly, nor that space consuming. I bet a handful of those Ikazzuchi carriers could easily done the work within a two week time period.

It's not as simple as all that... you have to actually be able to keep the material in its appropriate position, which requires they be outfitted with verniers and control avionics to maintain their position like any other satellite. It's not like tossing mirrors out of an airlock, you've got to actually corral them into a usable formation and keep them there for a significant period of time (and hope that the Invid don't attack).

Once again it would not be that hard. You use a metal hexagon frame lock them together then you attach the material to the individual grids and then once you have x amount assembled in smaller sections to attach them together. until you have achieved the size you desired. cost would be considerably less then building a single UES ship with all its working parts.
It would take time to work but it would work. Attach small engines to keep them where they need or maybe a Garfish or two and boom its good to go.

So what if the Invid blow the big rock up? if the projected area is calculated correctly and using the angle of approuch, they would effectively have thousands of projectiles hitting them at such high impact speed it would cause mass damage over more area of effects. And it would not be all that slow. Unlike a natural approach this is a deliberate push/pulled rock being guided in, with zero resistance until they hit earth orbit.

Unless they intercept the ship before it reaches Earth orbit, push the rock into a more stable orbit, or simply destroy it with massed weapons fire or the Regess's powers, or just break it up into chunks that will safely burn up on reentry. If the asteroid is being pushed or pulled by a ship, then it's not going to be moving all that fast based on the stats...

There is currently nothing in the Invid Arsonal to show that they could deflect it back into space. And the only thing we see that the Invid have that could knock it out of the sky is the Regess ability to transform her people and go into Phoenix mode. Thats it. In a high orbit, the Invid do not have anything that can reach it except troop carriers. Non of the weapons In the show used by the Invid shot into high orbit or higher. her mecha could not do it. she has nothing to stop an asteroid.

Again so what, they hit and blow these things up, and get killed by thousands of smaller one smashing all over reflex point. the damage would be so intense the UEEF could clean up with orbital bombardment with near zero resistance.

Your thinking is with modern tech. robotech space tech is beyond our modern stuff and could do this.

Not really, no... I'm looking at the practical physics of a meteorite impact and how much mass/density you'd need to achieve your intended result, the necessary velocity, and a couple specific factors from Robotech proper and the RPG.

Yes, the technology in Robotech is more advanced than we have today... but it's more on a Gundam level than the kind of Star Trek level that would make this kind of attack easy and equally practical with just bombing the planet with actual bombs. It should be much easier for the UEEF to knock together a couple dozen Tsar Bomba equivalents and drop those in strategic places around the world to trigger the same result with a lot less effort. Bombs like that can be made small enough to shoot down to Earth disguised as comet fragments or other space junk. Either that or just running a small FTL ship into Earth at speed and letting F=MA do the work.

(Gundam's official publications actually have a pretty good explanation of why this kind of attack is fairly impractical... it gets used a lot anyway because the conventional alternative of nukes is banned by treaty.)

I never watch Gundam, the show bored me and so i cannot use it to compare. but i was not using startrek, starwars or any other show. just physics and robotech. And unless you can show me something in the show that show the Invid can shoot that sucker down, we could sit here all year in this debate.


That said I thought the humans should have just left the earth to the Invid or NS missiled it in the first place. Why waste life and resources on a dead planet. It is shown that there are habitable worlds out there and they had the resources to be a space faring race.

[ShadowLogan]

The big ships are an investment of years of time and material... and the UEEF's resources were so tight thanks to their war with the Regent that they couldn't even afford to spare Alpha fighters for the 1st Earth Reclamation Force. Building something like Mobile Suit Gundam's Solar System on a scale large enough to affect a planet's climate probably isn't in the cards.

While it is years of investment to build, it took the UEEF 7years to be ready to attempt anything at Earth apparently with 10th MD, it took them 4 years to recover from 10th MD failure to launch the 21st, and 2 more after the 21st (and that was with help from the Kabareens and Edwards bad job at deleting data). I do not dispute that it will take time and investments, but it does appear the UEEF has to do that anyway when it recovers from each failed attempt. And given the simplicity of the manufacturing process here compared to a ship or mecha, they should have an easier time of it.

Still the approach chosen (shade or mirror) determines how much material they will need to build. A shade to cover the Earth will have to be big (Venus terraforming I looked at for a baseline size required x2 Venus diameter to reduce sunlight by 90%), however depending on how much climate alteration desired (or needed to make Earth un-viable for the FoL) will determine the size of the shade/mirror that is needed.

They could try... but it must be admitted that their track record for escorting things down into the atmosphere of post-Invid Earth is worthy of the 2008 Detroit Lions.

The biggest difference here though is that when escorting ships in they have to slow down or the crew is dead. They don't need to do that with the rocks, only the escorts. Invid kamakazies aren't going to be as effective against the asteroid/comet as UEEF space ships.

If they don't fold 'em, there's a massive amount of lead time for the Invid to mount an interception mission.

Unless the Invid have an asteroid/comet detection system in place and that is better than our current system, they aren't necesarily going to have that much lead time.

They also can't just blow it up. If the do, they may actually make the situation worse because now each of those big rocks is no longer a deer slug, but buck shot (that can explode) which might actually make things worse, this of course depends also on the size of the metor one is looking to create.

Moving space rocks on the scale we're talking is going to require an expenditure of protoculture rivaling or exceeding moving the neutron-s missiles, either because you'll be moving a handful of rocks that dwarf the UEEF fleet with some kind of purpose-built special fold engine, or hundreds of smaller rocks using a fleet of individual ships.

Not necessarily. The UEEF does have options, especially if they are willing to be patient. None of the real methods considered for asteroid/comet deflection require PC, so the UEEF PC expenditure can be limited to having "spent" it for regular operation anyway weather they try this or not.

Recall that the UEEF does have access to fusion technology (mecha have back-up fusion systems), so they have non-PC method of powering various approaches.

[Jefffar]

Actually, the Invid coming up to intercept the rock of doom plays into the UEEF's hands as it draws them out in deeper space away from the planet. This gives them a chance to either attack the planet directly while the Invid are out of position, or to set up some long range firing at those clamships and eliminate the Invid in bulk while stranding the surviving mecha too far from Earth to return under their own power. The Invid stopping the rock or not is immaterial to destroying a sizable portion of their fleet.

But that assumes the Invid look that far out. The UEEF fleet seems to have been using Moon Base as a staging area in the lead up to the Battle of Reflex Point. The lack of a known Invid offensive against the Moon indicates there may be some deficiencies in their ability to detect threats.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am sure they could figure it out, I mean they have 6 years in which they could have come up with something better. And even if they only use mile size space rocks with all the right material density, something they could do while they figure out which ones to grab.

True, but then... we're assuming the UEEF ships are structurally sound-enough to tow a piece of irregularly-shaped space debris that may be several times their mass. We're also assuming that the ecological damage caused by such an impact will have a significant negative effect on the Invid and the Flowers of Life, which is unlikely considering the Flowers of Life were perfectly able to bloom in subterranean conditions and the Invid are perfectly capable of surviving in space.

There's a strong possibility the Invid would just have to push the rock onto a slightly different course to protect their hives and then just back and watch the monkeys freeze and starve.

again it would not be that hard for them to figure it out. the earth was hit already 6 times that they can actually see. and while it did not kill all life, the one that hit with the dino's took 25% of all life. If it hit in north America, I have no doubt the Invid would be toast.

We're talking about a species that has resisted the best efforts of the Robotech Masters, Zentradi, and Haydonites to wipe them out for untold millennia... I don't think an asteroid attack is going to be that off-putting to them.

Again there is not evidence of her true ability. I am not saying the half dozen missiles would not be more devastating, but only the astroids are plausible.

It's evidence of her ability to respond to an extreme threat.

Once again it would not be that hard. You use a metal hexagon frame lock them together then you attach the material to the individual grids and then once you have x amount assembled in smaller sections to attach them together.

Things don't just sit still in space... the material is going to have to stand up to micrometeoroid impacts, gravitational forces, its own structural stresses, and maintain its position. That's a complex undertaking, at least as complex as building a starship (esp. since, in the UEEF's case, a lot of their early ships are built around tech salvage).

There is currently nothing in the Invid Arsonal to show that they could deflect it back into space.

Ram it with a couple ships and let their engines push it into a more stable trajectory. It's not that hard.

And unless you can show me something in the show that show the Invid can shoot that sucker down, we could sit here all year in this debate.

They don't need to shoot the rock down, they just need to push it a tiny bit one way or the other to cause it to slingshot around the planet or miss entirely.

I do not dispute that it will take time and investments, but it does appear the UEEF has to do that anyway when it recovers from each failed attempt. And given the simplicity of the manufacturing process here compared to a ship or mecha, they should have an easier time of it.

Based on the practical problems of assembling and deploying a mirror array vast enough to achieve the desired result (which may not actually DO anything to the Invid or FoL), I wouldn't agree that it's simpler than assembling a fleet... and the probability for success is even less certain than the armed intervention option.

The biggest difference here though is that when escorting ships in they have to slow down or the crew is dead. They don't need to do that with the rocks, only the escorts. Invid kamakazies aren't going to be as effective against the asteroid/comet as UEEF space ships.

They don't need to kamikaze the rock, just knock a few ships into it and push it away with their engines while the troops that those ships carried mulch the UEEF forces the way they always do.

(Easier by far to just run an unmanned fold-capable warship into the planet at fold speeds... and there's no stopping THAT.)

Unless the Invid have an asteroid/comet detection system in place and that is better than our current system, they aren't necesarily going to have that much lead time.

They have something better... a system for detecting protoculture expenditure from things like reflex furnaces, fold drives, and so on... and shadow stealth technology wouldn't have been available in the timeframe we're talking, since that only came out in 2044.

Recall that the UEEF does have access to fusion technology (mecha have back-up fusion systems), so they have non-PC method of powering various approaches.

Which is still going to be less efficient than just dropping fusion bombs on the planet... esp. if they can do it without a fission trigger.

[ShadowLogan]

Based on the practical problems of assembling and deploying a mirror array vast enough to achieve the desired result (which may not actually DO anything to the Invid or FoL), I wouldn't agree that it's simpler than assembling a fleet... and the probability for success is even less certain than the armed intervention option.

It may not do much to Invid directly, but if you alter the environment of Earth, the FoL may not be able to grow. We don't know what makes Earth prime realestate for it to grow (per the Regis), so if you start messing with Earth's environment it should influence the FoL.

As far as assembling and deploying the array. It would be an undertaking for sure, but it certainly seems within their capacity given they construct starships over 1km long and have given a face lift to at least one RFS (Liberty).

They don't need to kamikaze the rock, just knock a few ships into it and push it away with their engines while the troops that those ships carried mulch the UEEF forces the way they always do.

For the carriers to pull that off though is best pulled off at range, not on final approach. The Regis is only seen to regularly project power from Earth into space at less than the distance to the Moon, at which point she will need to use a lot of ships, or project farther out.

The UEEF can shoot down carriers after all (though apparently don't like the idea and would rather just blast the mecha after launch).

They have something better... a system for detecting protoculture expenditure from things like reflex furnaces, fold drives, and so on... and shadow stealth technology wouldn't have been available in the timeframe we're talking, since that only came out in 2044.

Shadow Systems are not needed. You only need the PC expenditure to appear at one or two phases in the asteroid/comet's flight, altering its trajectory (which could be happening outside the detection range and doesn't even need PC to actually execute) and on final approach (from escorts).

Which is still going to be less efficient than just dropping fusion bombs on the planet... esp. if they can do it without a fission trigger.

Less efficient maybe, but now you don't have to manufacture said fusion bombs. The asteroid/comets are ready made.

They could also just manufacture their own "rocks" via the "Rods from God" concept that uses Tungsten rods dropped from orbit. Which might get by the Invid if they are "distracted" by the apparent UEEF threat (who don't have to actually go all the way down).

[Seto Kaiba]

It may not do much to Invid directly, but if you alter the environment of Earth, the FoL may not be able to grow. We don't know what makes Earth prime realestate for it to grow (per the Regis), so if you start messing with Earth's environment it should influence the FoL.

The Flower of Life had little difficulty growing in the wreckage of a spaceship and all over the planet when it was still mostly just a radioactive wasteland. This is just my suspicion, but I rather doubt altering the environment slightly is going to be that off-putting where the Flower of Life is concerned.

As far as assembling and deploying the array. It would be an undertaking for sure, but it certainly seems within their capacity given they construct starships over 1km long and have given a face lift to at least one RFS (Liberty).

I don't deny that they're capable of building big... but they're not exactly great at doing it fast. Between meeting the requirements that the UEEF has for materiel and new shipbuilding, a solar reflector large enough to affect Earth's climate would likely take them the better part of a decade to construct and months to deploy. The same result could be achieved with much less effort and with a great deal less expenditure of resources and time by other means.

For the carriers to pull that off though is best pulled off at range, not on final approach. The Regis is only seen to regularly project power from Earth into space at less than the distance to the Moon, at which point she will need to use a lot of ships, or project farther out.

That depends on the amount of thrust those ships are capable of, more than anything.

The UEEF can shoot down carriers after all (though apparently don't like the idea and would rather just blast the mecha after launch).

They can certainly try... but even bringing their entire fleet they weren't enough to actually match the Invid in a battle of attrition, as noted in "Symphony of Light" and Shadow Chronicles.

Less efficient maybe, but now you don't have to manufacture said fusion bombs. The asteroid/comets are ready made.

Yes, but asteroids and comets are hard to move... so what you might be saving in manufacturing time you're losing in fuel and the other resources consumed by the ships sent to move and escort the rocks. After all, Rocks are not free.

[ShadowLogan]

The Flower of Life had little difficulty growing in the wreckage of a spaceship and all over the planet when it was still mostly just a radioactive wasteland. This is just my suspicion, but I rather doubt altering the environment slightly is going to be that off-putting where the Flower of Life is concerned.

However the PC matrix/factory was involved at that stage. Globally the FoL doesn't have that resource to use, so altering the climate may actually have an impact.

That depends on the amount of thrust those ships are capable of, more than anything.

Yes and No. The closer they have to intercept the rock using ship thrust, the more thrust they are going to need to alter the trajectory enough in time to be of any value.

If the metor is on final approach, you need a lot more thrust to alter the trajectory than if you can do it farther out. Low thrust can do the same job, if given enough lead time.

They can certainly try... but even bringing their entire fleet they weren't enough to actually match the Invid in a battle of attrition, as noted in "Symphony of Light" and Shadow Chronicles.

And how often did they try to shoot down the carriers? Last I checked they only are shown to target 1 Carrier in Ep85, that's it and they didn't do anything to the carriers in Ep61. It almost seems like the UEEF wants to do things the hardway.

Yes, but asteroids and comets are hard to move... so what you might be saving in manufacturing time you're losing in fuel and the other resources consumed by the ships sent to move and escort the rocks. After all, Rocks are not free.

Actually they are not hard to move if you have time on your side. The Asteroid and comet themselves can provide the actual fuel/reaction-mass used to alter their trajectory, if you go about it in the right way.

I read the link previously. I don't agree with it because a good deal of the cost for the asteroid mission will be incurred anyway regardless of if its done or not.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Yawn.

The Invid ships would never get close to an asteroid once it broke orbit the heat alone would destroy and deflect the pieces. once those rocks break through orbit nothing is gonna stop it.

As for the Invid being beat down by the masters and the Zentraedi they made tactical errors due to arrogance. The master dropped Neutron bombs and killed all the plant life. We have no causality numbers from that. And the Hadonite hide behide everyone else, there is nothing showing the haydonite have fought the invid directly.

But the damage from and asteroid has been proven, And the "Rods from God" concept that uses Tungsten rods dropped from orbit. is proven by science that it would destroy huge sections of land mass. And I do not think the invid have anything that would stop those. for the same reason as stated before.
And you dont have to hit a hive or its little shield as the earth around them explodes and sends them flying in random directions. the impact alone from their free fall will take care of those in the Hives.

Seto cutting off part of what i said to hold solor sail in place to get the results you want is boring. In my spelled out version I had said: It would take time to work but it would work. Attach small engines to keep them where they need or maybe a Garfish or two and boom its good to go. And there is still no reason it would not with two ships guiding them to where they need to be.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Wasn't a Commet/Asteroid how Tommy has written the Haydonites were going to wipeout Tirol during Shadow-Rising in his script-outline?
Basically Zor builds a new Matrix for the REF, but the Hadonites have sent a Massive asteroid toward Tirol, Ariel uses her Invid powers to destroy it... dies in the process ect. ect... I could easily see the REF being able to do this... but the Regesis could simply use her energy form to destroy it.. possibly killing her in the process.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 969&type=1

[Lt Gargoyle]

Wasn't a Commet/Asteroid how Tommy has written the Haydonites were going to wipeout Tirol during Shadow-Rising in his script-outline?
Basically Zor builds a new Matrix for the REF, but the Hadonites have sent a Massive asteroid toward Tirol, Ariel uses her Invid powers to destroy it... dies in the process ect. ect... I could easily see the REF being able to do this... but the Regesis could simply use her energy form to destroy it.. possibly killing her in the process.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 969&type=1

Just read it. no Ariel can only slow it down, the big cannon fired by the Tirolian blows it up into fragments which devastates Tirol. And require vince to use the ark angel to save the tirolians. So it worked. But even if the Regesis is killed in the process, I think that is considered a win for the human. the Invid would be a shatted race, The Prince's and Princess's might be able to get regional control over certain hives, but with their emotions being so new, its possible to see them fighting each other for control. We see Corg and Sera having issues getting along.

I do not see the Invid queen as a God and until they make her one in the series I will not consider her one. I do not like the idea that there is something that is beyond all the laws of physic, especially all they have is a poor plot devise to explain it.

But I am not really sad that they dropped the ball with that robotech story line. It sucked in the outline. but thank you for sharing.

[Seto Kaiba]

However the PC matrix/factory was involved at that stage. Globally the FoL doesn't have that resource to use, so altering the climate may actually have an impact.

Only initially, when it was buried... after it was released from the mounds, the fact that Earth was a desolate (possibly radioactive) wasteland didn't even slow it down.

And how often did they try to shoot down the carriers? Last I checked they only are shown to target 1 Carrier in Ep85, that's it and they didn't do anything to the carriers in Ep61. It almost seems like the UEEF wants to do things the hardway.

They tried in RTSC with long-range synchro cannon bombardment too, with an admittedly dismal display of accuracy... (ironically, if it'd been reflex cannons, those near misses would have still been lethal).

The Invid ships would never get close to an asteroid once it broke orbit the heat alone would destroy and deflect the pieces. once those rocks break through orbit nothing is gonna stop it.

That's an awfully bold and baseless statement... do you have something to back it up?

As for the Invid being beat down by the masters and the Zentraedi they made tactical errors due to arrogance. The master dropped Neutron bombs and killed all the plant life. We have no causality numbers from that. And the Hadonite hide behide everyone else, there is nothing showing the haydonite have fought the invid directly.

Where is this coming from?

Also, in RTSC itself Ariel attributes the loss of the original (pre-Optera) Invid homeworld to an attack by the Haydonites.

But the damage from and asteroid has been proven, And the "Rods from God" concept that uses Tungsten rods dropped from orbit. is proven by science that it would destroy huge sections of land mass. And I do not think the invid have anything that would stop those. for the same reason as stated before.

From orbit. Invid-controlled orbit. How to deploy those without getting kamikaze'd into a new decoration for the Regess's open-orbit debris garden?

Just read it. no Ariel can only slow it down, the big cannon fired by the Tirolian blows it up into fragments which devastates Tirol.

Yes, but this must be a meteoroid orders of magnitude larger than what we're talking about, if the combined fire of the entire UEEF fleet, Tirolian fleet, and everything else they can muster barely slows it down. We're talking about a space rock so colossal that it's resisting fire of allegedly apocalyptic scale.

On that front, it sounds less like a meteoroid and more like the Haydonites are dropping a frigging moon on Tirol.

[Lt Gargoyle]

However the PC matrix/factory was involved at that stage. Globally the FoL doesn't have that resource to use, so altering the climate may actually have an impact.

Only initially, when it was buried... after it was released from the mounds, the fact that Earth was a desolate (possibly radioactive) wasteland didn't even slow it down.

Actually in the Game books its says that the flower of life has spot where the FoL grows better then others. So high radio active areas could be the very reason the plant grows better in some spots.

And how often did they try to shoot down the carriers? Last I checked they only are shown to target 1 Carrier in Ep85, that's it and they didn't do anything to the carriers in Ep61. It almost seems like the UEEF wants to do things the hardway.

They tried in RTSC with long-range synchro cannon bombardment too, with an admittedly dismal display of accuracy... (ironically, if it'd been reflex cannons, those near misses would have still been lethal).

Yea that shows the carelessness of the officers in charge. Because we see Maya bust at least 24 of the Carriers Invid instead of shooting the carriers before they opened up. Wolfe squadron started targeting. but they sucked with the short range missiles and only allowed the invid to shoot out of the openings.

The Invid ships would never get close to an asteroid once it broke orbit the heat alone would destroy and deflect the pieces. once those rocks break through orbit nothing is gonna stop it.

That's an awfully bold and baseless statement... do you have something to back it up?

Well lets see we have the intense heat which is in the thousands of degrees, melting the ships metals. Then you add mass of the asteroid, along with acceleration for gravity which is working against the Invid, and the hollow troop carriers have no chance in hell of stopping this rock. they might hit but i would not count on it. but if they do they would at best do nothing to stop its fall. Especially if its is space folded directly in earth upper atmostmoshere.

This one is just pretty and its only six miles and does not even hit the land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYNzl2xokZU

this one has actual scientist talking about how much damage with visuals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2S-IrZLbls

And heck hoss we here at NASA don't leave things to chance, we double up on everything.

With what we have seen On screen and not in game books, A fold bubble can grab the ocean around the entire Island of macross and take it out to Pluto. So i am gonna say in this case using your type of logic The on screen shot wins. Fold this back into the atmosphere and run. After all who wants to leave an island littering space like that?

As for the Invid being beat down by the masters and the Zentraedi they made tactical errors due to arrogance. The master dropped Neutron bombs and killed all the plant life. We have no causality numbers from that. And the Hadonite hide behide everyone else, there is nothing showing the haydonite have fought the invid directly.

Where is this coming from?

Also, in RTSC itself Ariel attributes the loss of the original (pre-Optera) Invid homeworld to an attack by the Haydonites.

Yea this is where we have issue with rewritten material. I realize the old comics and Novels are out dated. But why would the Invid come after the Master If it was the Haydonite who destoryed thier homeworld. this is the problem with rewrites. the master send zor to steal the fol and then not wanting anyone else to have it pop optera so nothing grows there, I used neutron bombs because that is what they do. kill biological matter while leaving structures standing. but hell it make since with the new rewrite. The master take some FoL make protoculture and the all powerful Haydonite pop Optera so the invid could not have any, but failed to kill the primitive species and the invid starving attack the masters. ok got it.

But the damage from and asteroid has been proven, And the "Rods from God" concept that uses Tungsten rods dropped from orbit. is proven by science that it would destroy huge sections of land mass. And I do not think the invid have anything that would stop those. for the same reason as stated before.

From orbit. Invid-controlled orbit. How to deploy those without getting kamikaze'd into a new decoration for the Regess's open-orbit debris garden?

Well we do see a big debris ring in orbit around the earth of some really big chunks of spaceship which marcus and alex hide in. And with a dozen shadow fighters giving them a bit of a friendly push down, would be right there in Invid controlled space, HMMMM.... I guess the Invid did not think of that either. heck you could do this like the haydonites do the UEEF and Tirolian ships. But instead Of the Regsis saving ariel she could die.

Best part is you do not need any direct hits on a hive. With the two video links i have shown how the impacts will look. Place a ton of those missile/explosives carried by the fleet (pull them right out of the veritechs) and with the armaments still on those ship, you have a pretty big orbital nuke. And since we have so many veritechs and so much debris even if 1% hits the ground reflex point is pretty much gone.

Just read it. no Ariel can only slow it down, the big cannon fired by the Tirolian blows it up into fragments which devastates Tirol.

Yes, but this must be a meteoroid orders of magnitude larger than what we're talking about, if the combined fire of the entire UEEF fleet, Tirolian fleet, and everything else they can muster barely slows it down. We're talking about a space rock so colossal that it's resisting fire of allegedly apocalyptic scale.

On that front, it sounds less like a meteoroid and more like the Haydonites are dropping a frigging moon on Tirol.

Actually it says the Haydonites are keeping the Humans and Tirolian ships busy in a fire fight and unable to fire upon the meteorite. they even said meterorite and the one in the video with LA impact ten miles will do the same job. So it does not take a moon size rock to end the live on earth. again your deleting things from the quotes. And it does not have Ariel saving the day by magically making it vere off course. she only slows it down giving the tirolians time to shoot it with their big cannon.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually in the Game books its says that the flower of life has spot where the FoL grows better then others. So high radio active areas could be the very reason the plant grows better in some spots.

So... drop a big space rock to further contaminate the environment to make MORE Invid food, if the FoL thrives on terrible conditions?

That's the biggest sticking point... the assumption that an asteroid attack couldn't be intercepted, and that even if it wasn't, that it'd actually be enough to materially weaken the Invid occupation.

Well lets see we have the intense heat which is in the thousands of degrees, melting the ships metals.

Reentry heat doesn't seem to be an issue for most ships in the setting, though... even the Mars Base ships that are disabled and fall to Earth frequently fall in one piece.

And heck hoss we here at NASA don't leave things to chance, we double up on everything.

Both of those examples feature meteoroids several times larger than what we're told the maximum diameter of a fold bubble can be on UEEF ships of the line, or even SDFs for that matter.

With what we have seen On screen and not in game books, A fold bubble can grab the ocean around the entire Island of macross and take it out to Pluto. So i am gonna say in this case using your type of logic The on screen shot wins. Fold this back into the atmosphere and run. After all who wants to leave an island littering space like that?

Um... you do know the RPG and the animation are pretty much in accord WRT the fold bubble thing, right?

South Ataria... or "Macross Island" as Robotech has it... was a particularly small island maybe 3km across at its widest, and more than capable of fitting into the fold bubble the stats say the SDF-1 or SDF-4 can produce at their maximum. But who would take the flagship off the front lines for months to attempt an unorthodox attack that may not actually even discomfort the Invid's occupation force?

Also, no faction in Robotech has demonstrated the ability to fold with that level of precision... they usually come out of fold a good distance away from whatever planet or moon they're visiting.

(I'd also note that the island isn't going to hold up nearly as well as a dense, iron-rich asteroid... it's likely to break up immediately under the stresses involved burn up mostly harmlessly on reentry.)

Yea this is where we have issue with rewritten material. I realize the old comics and Novels are out dated. But why would the Invid come after the Master If it was the Haydonite who destoryed thier homeworld.

Because the Robotech Masters stole the Flowers of Life and then destroyed the Invid's second homeworld. The Invid wanting their flowers back was always their motivation in Sentinels... that hasn't changed.

The master take some FoL make protoculture and the all powerful Haydonite pop Optera so the invid could not have any, but failed to kill the primitive species and the invid starving attack the masters. ok got it.

No, you've misunderstood me.

Ariel establishes in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles that the Haydonites destroyed the original Invid homeworld... the world they migrated from when they moved to Optera... in an effort to wipe out protoculture. The Robotech Masters destroyed Optera's surface after the Invid reestablished their civilization there, and claimed the Flowers of Life for themselves. The Invid Regent kept using Optera as his HQ even though it was pretty much a dead world, and eventually Edwards took over that HQ, but the Regess's part of the Invid species left to find other places to live and eventually settled on Earth until humanity made it clear they'd torch it rather than let the Invid have it.

Invid homeworld #1: destroyed by Haydonites
Invid homeworld #2: Optera, destroyed by the Robotech Masters
Invid homeworld #3: Weird planet seen at the start of the New Generation, abandoned when the Flowers of Life were detected on Earth.
Invid homeworld #4: Earth, abandoned when the UEEF tried to destroy the planet after failing to recapture it.

Well we do see a big debris ring in orbit around the earth of some really big chunks of spaceship which marcus and alex hide in. And with a dozen shadow fighters giving them a bit of a friendly push down, would be right there in Invid controlled space, HMMMM.... I guess the Invid did not think of that either. heck you could do this like the haydonites do the UEEF and Tirolian ships. But instead Of the Regsis saving ariel she could die.

Or you could look at it another way... that the orbital debris and the possibility of it making reentry was not a threat to the Invid, so they ignored it as they do all other things that don't threaten them.

(Shadow fighters weren't available until the runup to the 3rd Earth Reclamation Force operation in 2044, so that wouldn't have been an option.)

Best part is you do not need any direct hits on a hive. With the two video links i have shown how the impacts will look. Place a ton of those missile/explosives carried by the fleet (pull them right out of the veritechs) and with the armaments still on those ship, you have a pretty big orbital nuke. And since we have so many veritechs and so much debris even if 1% hits the ground reflex point is pretty much gone.

You're really dramatically overestimating the energy involved here... there's a world of difference between a 16km metallic asteroid and chunks of twisted, irregularly shaped metal a few dozen to a few hundred meters long, especially if one is making a direct high velocity approach and the other is in a slowly decaying orbit. There's a difference in energy that's orders of magnitude apart.

Actually it says the Haydonites are keeping the Humans and Tirolian ships busy in a fire fight and unable to fire upon the meteorite. they even said meterorite and the one in the video with LA impact ten miles will do the same job. So it does not take a moon size rock to end the live on earth. again your deleting things from the quotes.

I'm deleting irrelevant things from quotes... and the outline says the Haydonites attack after the fleet starts firing.

(If anything, the outline would tend to support the view that an asteroid attack would be no threat to the Invid... Ariel's abilities are officially supposed to be much weaker than the Regess's, and that kind of leaves the door open the the Regess being able to exert a telekinetic push on an asteroid attack sufficient to redirect it... if she didn't simply teleport it to the far end of the universe out of spite the way Ariel dragged Scott to another galaxy as casually as stepping through a door.)

[ShadowLogan]

Only initially, when it was buried... after it was released from the mounds, the fact that Earth was a desolate (possibly radioactive) wasteland didn't even slow it down.

That doesn't mean the FoL separated from the Matrix/Factory won't be influenced by a lack of sunlight, or a drop in temp.

They tried in RTSC with long-range synchro cannon bombardment too, with an admittedly dismal display of accuracy... (ironically, if it'd been reflex cannons, those near misses would have still been lethal).

They also used beam cannons in Ep85 and it hit one ship. Being more specific I can't be if others are missed completely off hand. But it wasn't something they tried to sustain in either TSC or Ep61/85 preferring to counter fighters with fighters, instead of shooting the fighters' transport down before engaging.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Wasn't a Commet/Asteroid how Tommy has written the Haydonites were going to wipeout Tirol during Shadow-Rising in his script-outline?
Basically Zor builds a new Matrix for the REF, but the Hadonites have sent a Massive asteroid toward Tirol, Ariel uses her Invid powers to destroy it... dies in the process ect. ect... I could easily see the REF being able to do this... but the Regesis could simply use her energy form to destroy it.. possibly killing her in the process.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 969&type=1

Just read it. no Ariel can only slow it down, the big cannon fired by the Tirolian blows it up into fragments which devastates Tirol. And require vince to use the ark angel to save the tirolians. So it worked. But even if the Regesis is killed in the process, I think that is considered a win for the human. the Invid would be a shatted race, The Prince's and Princess's might be able to get regional control over certain hives, but with their emotions being so new, its possible to see them fighting each other for control. We see Corg and Sera having issues getting along.

I do not see the Invid queen as a God and until they make her one in the series I will not consider her one. I do not like the idea that there is something that is beyond all the laws of physic, especially all they have is a poor plot devise to explain it.

But I am not really sad that they dropped the ball with that robotech story line. It sucked in the outline. but thank you for sharing.

I hadn't read the thing ins a long long long long (ad infinium) time...
I forgot the got blasted by the Masters and they shattered the asteroid... and it still devastated the planet as chunks landed...
Even if this was replicated over earth and she managed to stop the main impact, residual impacts form smaller pieces might blanket the earth in some level of dust and blot out the sun for a few seasons... The FOl wouldn't do well in theses conditions as beyond growing inside the ruins in a greenhouse, they resemble tropical or suptropical plants.

[Seto Kaiba]

That doesn't mean the FoL separated from the Matrix/Factory won't be influenced by a lack of sunlight, or a drop in temp.

It doesn't mean it will, either... and for an aggressive specimen of xenoflora, it seems to thrive in conditions that would be inimical to practically every other lifeform on Earth.

This whole thing hinges on the (false) assumption that the Invid can't do anything to stop an attack like that, and that said attack will significantly harm the two most adaptable species in the entire setting... at least one of which has direct control over its own evolution.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Wasn't a Commet/Asteroid how Tommy has written the Haydonites were going to wipeout Tirol during Shadow-Rising in his script-outline?
Basically Zor builds a new Matrix for the REF, but the Hadonites have sent a Massive asteroid toward Tirol, Ariel uses her Invid powers to destroy it... dies in the process ect. ect... I could easily see the REF being able to do this... but the Regesis could simply use her energy form to destroy it.. possibly killing her in the process.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 969&type=1

Just read it. no Ariel can only slow it down, the big cannon fired by the Tirolian blows it up into fragments which devastates Tirol. And require vince to use the ark angel to save the tirolians. So it worked. But even if the Regesis is killed in the process, I think that is considered a win for the human. the Invid would be a shatted race, The Prince's and Princess's might be able to get regional control over certain hives, but with their emotions being so new, its possible to see them fighting each other for control. We see Corg and Sera having issues getting along.

I do not see the Invid queen as a God and until they make her one in the series I will not consider her one. I do not like the idea that there is something that is beyond all the laws of physic, especially all they have is a poor plot devise to explain it.

But I am not really sad that they dropped the ball with that robotech story line. It sucked in the outline. but thank you for sharing.

I hadn't read the thing ins a long long long long (ad infinium) time...
I forgot the got blasted by the Masters and they shattered the asteroid... and it still devastated the planet as chunks landed...
Even if this was replicated over earth and she managed to stop the main impact, residual impacts form smaller pieces might blanket the earth in some level of dust and blot out the sun for a few seasons... The FOl wouldn't do well in theses conditions as beyond growing inside the ruins in a greenhouse, they resemble tropical or suptropical plants.

I like the fact that the Haydonites do the same thing. we have been discussing.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I like the fact that the Haydonites do the same thing. we have been discussing.

The Creative director gets alot of unfair flack from a plurality of fans for this, but the plot is better than the final vision Macek had for Sentinels and Robotech as a whole...
The Masters have the most advanced tech in the universe, and they barely stop plan... given that Ariel was only slowing it down, and the Invid lack any reflex level weaponry... The Regsis would have to do that phoenix-force maneuver and try to melt the thing.

[glitterboy2098]

for those unaware of macek's plans.. IIRC Rem becomes his own Grandfather by becoming the father of Zor. the SDF-3, as part of the timewarp involved, ends up crashing to macross island to become the SDF-1, etc..

[Lt Gargoyle]

I like the fact that the Haydonites do the same thing. we have been discussing.

The Creative director gets alot of unfair flack from a plurality of fans for this, but the plot is better than the final vision Macek had for Sentinels and Robotech as a whole...
The Masters have the most advanced tech in the universe, and they barely stop plan... given that Ariel was only slowing it down, and the Invid lack any reflex level weaponry... The Regsis would have to do that phoenix-force maneuver and try to melt the thing.

Yea but that to me screams Copout in any writers story when they have to make a god like power to save oneself.

[Lt Gargoyle]

for those unaware of macek's plans.. IIRC Rem becomes his own Grandfather by becoming the father of Zor. the SDF-3, as part of the timewarp involved, ends up crashing to macross island to become the SDF-1, etc..

I will not argue that. though to be fair I was like huh??? when I read end of the circle the first time around. still try to forget that i ever did. this is just a horrible idea, another thing i hate about poor story telling. We will just use time travel to explain how it happens.

[Colonel Wolfe]

for those unaware of macek's plans.. IIRC Rem becomes his own Grandfather by becoming the father of Zor. the SDF-3, as part of the timewarp involved, ends up crashing to macross island to become the SDF-1, etc..

I thought it was worse... Like Rem and Minmay have a baby... That baby is Zor... who gets command of the SDF-3 when it is sent way back to the past and the REF becomes the Masters... his sentinels has hunter Kill Edwards after he learns to use the forc... I mean Hin...
Copying the plot of Micheal Bay's Armageddon is Shakespeare by some comparisons.. the Series would literally close with it crahsing on earth in 1999... he wanted 260 epsiodes so it could play every week-day of the year in a near endless loop...

[devillin]

Wasn't a Commet/Asteroid how Tommy has written the Haydonites were going to wipeout Tirol during Shadow-Rising in his script-outline?
Basically Zor builds a new Matrix for the REF, but the Hadonites have sent a Massive asteroid toward Tirol, Ariel uses her Invid powers to destroy it... dies in the process ect. ect... I could easily see the REF being able to do this... but the Regesis could simply use her energy form to destroy it.. possibly killing her in the process.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 969&type=1

This was my first time reading this. As a story concept, I actually like it a lot. From what I'm seeing, it has some of the best elements from DYRL?, Gundam Seed Destiny, and the BSG Series Finale. If they could get a director who could pull it off, and enough resources were devoted to properly produce it, I could see this being very successful.

Unfortunately, we know neither one of those is ever likely to happen...

[Kagashi]

Wasn't a Commet/Asteroid how Tommy has written the Haydonites were going to wipeout Tirol during Shadow-Rising in his script-outline?
Basically Zor builds a new Matrix for the REF, but the Hadonites have sent a Massive asteroid toward Tirol, Ariel uses her Invid powers to destroy it... dies in the process ect. ect... I could easily see the REF being able to do this... but the Regesis could simply use her energy form to destroy it.. possibly killing her in the process.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 969&type=1

This was my first time reading this. As a story concept, I actually like it a lot. From what I'm seeing, it has some of the best elements from DYRL?, Gundam Seed Destiny, and the BSG Series Finale. If they could get a director who could pull it off, and enough resources were devoted to properly produce it, I could see this being very successful.

Unfortunately, we know neither one of those is ever likely to happen...

I didnt like it. Glad it was scrapped.

Hated the idea of the Regiss as an accepting god in an afterlife. Sounds too much like season 6 of Lost. I also dont like the recycled idea of the Haydonites falling into a Civil War and banding with the humans to fight the Awareness, Breetia vs Dolza style. The Haydonites should be their own bad guy. Everybody doesnt need to play nice at the end of the war. I think the Haydonites can easily be the bad guy whom it is clear it is either them or us whom will remain standing at the end of the war. Also hated the recycled Grand Cannon idea. If the Tirolians had that weapon...why not use it on the Invid right away?

I did like the idea of rolling in Bowie and Dana into the story again though. Would like to see Max and Myria as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yea but that to me screams Copout in any writers story when they have to make a god like power to save oneself.

's kind of a recurring problem in Robotech, thanks to the pre-reboot staff's treatment of protoculture as being something near-mystical in its own right. They had to make do with the Inbit Regess's actions in MOSPEADA, but there really wasn't a reason they needed to give Ariel the same power set except to make her a walking deus ex machina. The novels were especially bad with this, turning protoculture into something analogous to the will of the force from Star Wars.

One of Tommy's better decisions, reducing protoculture to a thoroughly mundane but highly useful fuel. Jettisoning the mysticism, magic, and so on also meant that most of the Sentinels Invid depictions went with it... which is why we've got a rather vague and incomplete picture of the Regent's forces in the Sentinels era now. Mind you, he wasn't exactly well-fleshed out before... basically being your bog-standard Saturday morning 80's cartoon villain who chewed the scenery with Shatnerian gusto.

I will not argue that. though to be fair I was like huh??? when I read end of the circle the first time around. still try to forget that i ever did. this is just a horrible idea, another thing i hate about poor story telling. We will just use time travel to explain how it happens.

It was, at the end of the day, one of two rather lame ideas tabled as ways to make the Robotech series loop on itself. In the elaborate and rather over-ambitious plan for Robotech II and future sequels, the goal was to eventually have a future Admiral Hunter (not necessarily Rick or Lisa) tell a batch of new recruits how the whole mess got started, 30 GOTO 10, play episode 1.

End of the Circle and the stable time loop was the culmination of the worst creative decisions in Robotech, prior to the dual disasters of Robotech 3000 and Robotech Academy.

Hated the idea of the Regiss as an accepting god in an afterlife. Sounds too much like season 6 of Lost. I also dont like the recycled idea of the Haydonites falling into a Civil War and banding with the humans to fight the Awareness, Breetia vs Dolza style. The Haydonites should be their own bad guy. Everybody doesnt need to play nice at the end of the war. I think the Haydonites can easily be the bad guy whom it is clear it is either them or us whom will remain standing at the end of the war. Also hated the recycled Grand Cannon idea. If the Tirolians had that weapon...why not use it on the Invid right away?

IMO, it felt too much like a copout... a way to kill characters without really killing them. "He's gone, we'll never see him again, but he's still alive, honest!". (Even cornier than the final episode of DS9, which tried a similar copout WRT Sisko/Dukat.)

The Haydonites themselves are a fairly weak villain, motivationally... unless you read the comic, they're basically in it for the evulz until the UEEF captures one of their leaders and he sees the light.

I did like the idea of rolling in Bowie and Dana into the story again though. Would like to see Max and Myria as well.

We'll probably never see Max and Miriya again... too much potential for legal trouble. That's why Tommy put them on a bus along with all of the other Macross Saga holdovers except Rick.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Here is my out take on Robotech. As a series I loved it as a Kid, I enjoy the show as an adult, and ignore the shadow chronicles altogether.

For the RPG I use the series as my guideline, and the material I desire. I have developed a time line i like which is based on the show. and if the players want to play the can or they can choose to find other games. either is ok with me.

[Kagashi]

Hmm, I noticed yet another canon Invid design that has eluded the RPG. The Regent had what I had originally assumed were Invid Armored Scouts with Boosters during the battle over Opteria where the Tokugawa was crippled in Prelude. He sends out these fighters to meet the UEEFs Grant's Alphas. These Invid appear to use space boosters, but resemble closer to Shock Troopers rather than Armored Scouts. They also boast three Shock Trooper plasma cannons (the third is mounted under on the belly of the mecha, fixed forward). The hands have three large claws forward, as opposed to a Shock Troopers two with a thumb claw, but the forearms resemble Shock Troopers. This is a different design of Invid than seen anywhere else.