The Differences between the VF-1 Valkyrie and the VF/A Alpha

[ByzantineBasileus]

Hello there

The difference in performance between the Valkyrie and the Alpha fighter has obviously been a source of discussion since the Alpha is meant to be a more advanced design. I have been doing some brainstorming on an in-universe justification for this dissimilarity. Let me know what you think:

On the VF-1 Valkyrie and the VF/A Alpha

Prior to the departure of the United Earth Expeditionary Force, the home-world of Humanity was the stage of an unprecedented level of activity. Shuttles entered and existed the atmosphere, transporting both supplies and personnel. The Robotech Factory churned out hundreds of ships whilst fleets of Tristar and Tokugawa-class spacecraft confronted one another in military exercises. Yet in many ways all this movement achieved was to mask a greater ideological conflict: the replacement of the VF-1 Valkyrie by the VF/A Alpha fighter.

Armchair generals, media personalities, military analysts and former Veritech pilots all pointed out the inferiority of the Alpha fighter as a successor. The Valkyrie was faster, especially at high altitudes, and through the use of advanced computer and fly-by-wire systems was much more manoeuvrable and able to acquire and identify targets quicker. In this regards the Alpha was a huge waste of money and resources, and it was more sensible to continue to use the VF-1.

However, a study produced by a private think-tank on behalf of the United Earth Government examined the performance of the VF-1 Valkyrie and had come to the following conclusions:

1: The Valkyrie was very expensive to produce, and as a result could not be manufactured in large numbers. Pilots were often overwhelmed by the sheer volume of Zentraedi mecha.

2: The computer and fly-by-wire systems required extensive and constant maintenance, meaning that only a small proportion of Veritechs could be deployed at any one time, further limiting the forces available to counter Zentraedi attacks.

3: The Valkyrie, with its limited payload, was not suited for extended engagements. After expending its ammunition, a VF-1 would frequently need to return to base to re-arm. The Zentraedi, with their energy-based weaponry, were not subject to these restrictions and could bring more forces to bear over a longer period of time.

4: The computer and fly-by-wire systems were very delicate. Significant damage to the VF-1 would shut them down, and the Veritech would immediately become far less agile and more vulnerable.

In addition to all this, those involved in planning and organizing the UEEF mission were operating under the following assumptions:

1: They would be encountering Zentraedi under the command of the Robotech Masters, or forces that would function according to a similar doctrine that emphasized overwhelming numbers and speed of attack.

2: After departing the Earth, it would be extremely difficult to replenish manpower.

3: Troops would be split between defending colony worlds and accompanying the main fleet.

4: The UEEF would need a simplified logistics chain and be able to organize its own sources of supply.

All these elements informed the design of the VF/A Alpha Fighter. First and foremost, the UEEF needed to maximise the number of soldiers and mecha that they could put into combat. The decision not incorporate fly-by-wire or the computer control scheme of the VF-1 into the Alpha Fighter was a deliberate one. Yes, it made the VF/A slower to fly, but also infinitely cheaper to build and maintain. The Armor-class Aerospacecraft Carrier could only field one squadron of Valkyries, whilst the 1200 meter long SDF-1 possessed 240 VF-1s. By comparison, the Ikazuchi Carrier contained 305 Alpha Fighters, and even the diminutive Garfish could hold 9 VF/As. As such the UEEF could utilize far more Veritechs.

The main weapon of the Alpha Fighter, the MM-60 Missile Delivery System, was also designed to further counter the numerical superiority of opponents they were most likely to face. The reasoning behind a large amount of short-range missiles was simple: to destroy a lot of opponents in a short period time, thus preventing the VF/As from being swarmed. According to tests conducted against captured Battle-pods, a single Regult could be destroyed by as few as two short-range missiles, and three usually guaranteed a kill. A single squadron of Alpha Fighters (9 Veritechs), launching all their missiles, would be able to wipe out 180 Battle-pods at once if each individual Zentraedi were targeted with three missiles each. The main weapon of the VF-1 Valkyrie, the GU-11 gunpod, would need the equivalent of three bursts to eliminate a single Regult. Since a GU-11 only carried about 25 bursts, a Valkyrie could only kill 5-6 Battlepods at the most. Alternately, the MM-60 system would enable an Alpha to engage in multiple dogfights against one or two opponents, and do so many times over, granting greater endurance in terms of long-range capabilities.

The gunpod of the Alpha Fighter, the EU-13, was also tested next to the GU-11. Whilst the GU-11 was found to be more powerful during a single burst of 55mm shells, it could only be reloaded by trained mechanics, and it was difficult to so in the field as ammunition had to be fed directly into the weapon using proper equipment. Being energy based, the EU-13 required only a single Protoculture magazine to function. An Alpha Fighter carried multiple magazines which, when depleted, could be rapidly exchanged in Battloid mode. This meant the EU-13 could inflict a higher level of sustained damage.

Finally, the VF/A was smaller and more heavily armoured, resulting in greater pilot survivability, an important factor for a fleet fighting far from home. It also utilized a unified energy supply system that meant it needed only one type of fuel: protoculture. Whereas a Valkyrie needed separate 55mm rounds, medium or long range missiles and liquid hydrogen, the Alpha needed only fuel cells charged from the main reactor of a ship and a standardized missile load-out. This greatly reduced the amount of supplies required and further enabled the UEEF to resupply and relaunch an Alpha far quicker than a VF-1.

[ShadowLogan]

The Valkyrie was faster, especially at high altitudes, and through the use of advanced computer and fly-by-wire systems was much more manoeuvrable and able to acquire and identify targets quicke

Not quite. In FIGHTER MODE the Valkyrie is faster, but when looking at BATTLOID/GUARDIAN MODES modes the Alpha is faster. Most likely a driving factor in the lowered airspeed in fighter mode was the actual use of that speed, it may not have been used as much pushing the requirements down.

The Alpha does suffer in tankage space though in space, so much so that it required the development of the Beta system (and who knows what else).

The decision not incorporate fly-by-wire or the computer control scheme of the VF-1 into the Alpha Fighter was a deliberate one.

This does not explain why the VF-8 Logan and VFH-10 AGAC still retained the fly-by-wire system and bonuses (reality is all VFs are going to need FBW to operate in fighter mode), nor does it explain why the Alpha and Beta could not be retrofitted at a later date with a better system. I bring up the Logan and AGAC because the Logan enters service before the Alpha, and the Alpha fighter is supposed to have received numerous updates.

The main weapon of the VF-1 Valkyrie, the GU-11 gunpod, would need the equivalent of three bursts to eliminate a single Regult. Since a GU-11 only carried about 25 bursts, a Valkyrie could only kill 5-6 Battlepods at the most. Alternately, the MM-60 system would enable an Alpha to engage in multiple dogfights against one or two opponents, and do so many times over, granting greater endurance in terms of long-range capabilities.

Actually it is more like 2 bursts for a GU-11 by RAW, so 12-3 battlepods. An EU-13 will require x3 as many bursts, which means it will take x3 as long to kill a Battlepod. By RAW there is no real reason the EU-13 (or any of the energy gunpods) should have replaced the GU-11 as they take longer to do the same job. Its one advantage is in terms of ammunition supply, but if it takes x3 longer to do a job it may not be worth it in other areas (since your shooters can likely be sustaining damage). Really this is one of those editorial errors (like the FBW) that you don't notice internally for a given saga, but notice when you start doing cross-saga stuff.

Augmentation wise the MM-60 can counter the Valkryie's stock configuration options (MRM, LRM, or Mini) if we assume 2:1 damage ratio between each scale (that means the VF-1 can have equivalent of 30SRM/24SRM/32SRM depending on the type of missile). The Valkryie can also be equipped with add-ons to increase payload (the Beta section wasn't conceived until several years after the Alpha, and it was shelved for around a decade, so would not be a factor to counter this at the time "your study" occurs) and does so directly in the SRM realm. The net effect is that the MM-60 vs Valk can quickly become "balanced", or slightly tilted in favour of the Valk, depending on how the Valkyrie is configured.

A more likely answer here is that some of the VF-1s capabilities where found to be underutilized and dropped on the next generation VF requirement, at least when it comes to missiles. Firing off MRM at close range really negates the need for MRM range capacity, and LRM use is more for specialized role that was used only a few times possibly to few to justify the capability.

An Alpha Fighter carried multiple magazines which, when depleted, could be rapidly exchanged in Battloid mode. This meant the EU-13 could inflict a higher level of sustained damage.

Actually the Alpha Fighter does not carry spare magazines any more (if so where is it specifically mentioned how many it now carries). The EU-13 can not inflict higher damage firing bursts (20*40=800 burst EU-13 vs GU-11 120*25= 3000, even single shot EU-13 does only 1600points per magazine). The EU-13 also takes x3 longer to do comparable damage. That is x3 longer the target can retaliate and result in more maintenance.

[ByzantineBasileus]

Not quite. In FIGHTER MODE the Valkyrie is faster, but when looking at BATTLOID/GUARDIAN MODES modes the Alpha is faster. Most likely a driving factor in the lowered airspeed in fighter mode was the actual use of that speed, it may not have been used as much pushing the requirements down.

You are right, I should have mentioned that.

The Alpha does suffer in tankage space though in space, so much so that it required the development of the Beta system (and who knows what else).

How do you mean suffer in tankage space?

This does not explain why the VF-8 Logan and VFH-10 AGAC still retained the fly-by-wire system and bonuses (reality is all VFs are going to need FBW to operate in fighter mode), nor does it explain why the Alpha and Beta could not be retrofitted at a later date with a better system. I bring up the Logan and AGAC because the Logan enters service before the Alpha, and the Alpha fighter is supposed to have received numerous updates.

It all comes down to a question of numbers. Anatole Leonard preferred to focus on conventional aircraft, battloids and infantry. As a result the ASC initially had small numbers of Veritechs. Since there was no need to field a large force of them, they had the luxury of using the fly-by-wire system. If you are going to have small numbers of a certain type of mecha, then you may at least have them use the best technology available, no matter how finicky it was. The UEEF needed to field a large number of decent Veritechs rather than a small number of excellent ones. Even when switching to a Veritech-focused force the ASC still had smaller numbers. The Tristar class only carried 100 Ajaxes, indicating their cost.

Actually it is more like 2 bursts for a GU-11 by RAW, so 12-3 battlepods. An EU-13 will require x3 as many bursts, which means it will take x3 as long to kill a Battlepod. By RAW there is no real reason the EU-13 (or any of the energy gunpods) should have replaced the GU-11 as they take longer to do the same job. Its one advantage is in terms of ammunition supply, but if it takes x3 longer to do a job it may not be worth it in other areas (since your shooters can likely be sustaining damage). Really this is one of those editorial errors (like the FBW) that you don't notice internally for a given saga, but notice when you start doing cross-saga stuff.

The GU-11 does 2d6x10 MD per burst, the same as the average short-range missile. You can kill a Battlepod with two bursts, but to be sure of a kill, three is better. That still does not change the fact that the Alpha Fighter can kill way more battlepods in a quicker fashion than the VF-1. Likewise it is no good having a high-damage weapon if you run out of ammo quicker and still have lots of enemies around. Plus you will have many more VF/As then VF-1s.

Actually the Alpha Fighter does not carry spare magazines any more (if so where is it specifically mentioned how many it now carries).

The Shadow Chronicles main book states:

"It is powered by a rechargeable Protoculture cell that is inserted into the weapon like a magazine, and can be switched for a new one easily"

Why include the capacity to easily switch magazines if the Alpha Fighter is not going to carry more of them?

The EU-13 can not inflict higher damage firing bursts (20*40=800 burst EU-13 vs GU-11 120*25= 3000, even single shot EU-13 does only 1600points per magazine). The EU-13 also takes x3 longer to do comparable damage. That is x3 longer the target can retaliate and result in more maintenance.

There will be more Alphas than Valkyries, meaning more missiles and beam cannon joy to spread around.

[ShadowLogan]

How do you mean suffer in tankage space?

Outside of the RPG one of the reasons given for the development of the Beta was the Alpha's limited propellant tankage (separate from the PC). It isn't mentioned w/re to the Alpha in the 2E RPG, but is mentioned in the Beta entry (pg112m "It also increase the Alpa's fuel capacity"). Propellant is a generic term, that includes both fuel and oxidizer in rocketry. So in space a given mecha's propellant load is important. Said factor is not really considered or addressed in the game stats, fortunately/unfortunately depending on one's POV.

all comes down to a question of numbers. Anatole Leonard preferred to focus on conventional aircraft, battloids and infantry...

I agree that the ASC had a different focus, but production cost goes down as numbers go up. In the 1990s while the F-22 was being developed planned production numbers where being cut due to escalating costs, which resulted in additional raised costs. So a cost metric does not work to explain anything since increased production should lower the cost.

Nor should the finickiness of the system matter in this case if you have spares. Or elect to go with a more robust design that was clearly available. If anything the VF-1 should have the lest impressive FBW system since it is 1st gen Veritech Technology.

The GU-11 does 2d6x10 MD per burst, the same as the average short-range missile. You can kill a Battlepod with two bursts, but to be sure of a kill, three is better. That still does not change the fact that the Alpha Fighter can kill way more battlepods in a quicker fashion than the VF-1. Likewise it is no good having a high-damage weapon if you run out of ammo quicker and still have lots of enemies around. Plus you will have many more VF/As then VF-1s.

2 bursts is the fastest a GU-11 can kill a battlepod, that helps to determine the maximum value it can take out. Counting an extra "just to be sure" is not necessary, otherwise you also have to account for misses (dodge/failed strike roll). And if we are doing negatives missiles can be dodged in small volleys, they can also be shot down, so you would need to account for this in missile total.

Yes the Alpha fighter can potentially kill more battlepods than a VF-1, but it does depend on how the VF-1 is configured and how different classes of missiles are evaluated in their comparison.

The Shadow Chronicles main book states:

"It is powered by a rechargeable Protoculture cell that is inserted into the weapon like a magazine, and can be switched for a new one easily"

Why include the capacity to easily switch magazines if the Alpha Fighter is not going to carry more of them?

I am aware of that. however I am looking for where it states the Alpha Fighter actually has how many?. In 1E the Alpha and VF-1 are both said to carry multiple spare clips for their respective gunpods clearly, we are not left guessing in terms of spares there. We do not have that in 2E.

There will be more Alphas than Valkyries, meaning more missiles and beam cannon joy to spread around.

Irrelevant. 1vs1, the EU-13 can not do what you say it does. You may have more missiles and mecha out there, but the weapon system in question is not out damaging a GU-11 individually. Which is important if you are expecting to be at a numerical disadvantage.

[Seto Kaiba]

The difference in performance between the Valkyrie and the Alpha fighter has obviously been a source of discussion since the Alpha is meant to be a more advanced design. I have been doing some brainstorming on an in-universe justification for this dissimilarity. Let me know what you think:

You're in for a series of nasty surprises...

1: The Valkyrie was very expensive to produce, and as a result could not be manufactured in large numbers. Pilots were often overwhelmed by the sheer volume of Zentraedi mecha.

There's really nothing to support that part of your theory... remember, even in the RPG, the VF-1 is tipped as being the main VF for the entire UEDF. They were planning to re-arm a global military force with the VF-1... that means building them by the thousands, and likely the only thing that stopped production was the loss of the factories themselves during the orbital bombardment.

(As the Macross OSM has it, the VF-1 was actually fairly cheap as VF's go... and over 5,000 VF-1 Valkyries had been built by December 2011.)

2: The computer and fly-by-wire systems required extensive and constant maintenance, meaning that only a small proportion of Veritechs could be deployed at any one time, further limiting the forces available to counter Zentraedi attacks.

There's nothing in canon sources or the OSM to suggest this is the case... and the RPG gives them functionally identical computers, except for the size of the target recognition database.

3: The Valkyrie, with its limited payload, was not suited for extended engagements. After expending its ammunition, a VF-1 would frequently need to return to base to re-arm. The Zentraedi, with their energy-based weaponry, were not subject to these restrictions and could bring more forces to bear over a longer period of time.

This, also, does not line up with existing facts.

Due to having blindly copy-pasted from the Macross OSM, the official Robotech stats for the VF-1 AND the RPG stats both accidentally inherited the UUM-7 micro-missile pod. It is perfectly possible to stick 60 missiles onto a VF-1 without resorting to any FAST packs. The VF-1 simply has greater versatility in its armaments, with the ability to carry medium or long-range ordinance... a capability none of its successor aircraft in Robotech have.

Slap the Super Pack on there, and you've got 56% more missiles to play with than the Alpha.

(The RPG did misidentify two different types of missiles there... the UUM-7 and FAST pack actually use the same model of SRM, tho the forearm packs use a different model of armor-piercing high initial-velocity missile.)

4: The computer and fly-by-wire systems were very delicate. Significant damage to the VF-1 would shut them down, and the Veritech would immediately become far less agile and more vulnerable.

This particular foible is an invention of the RPG's authors... but the VF-1 starts out markedly faster and more maneuverable than an Alpha anyway, and has auto-dodge bonuses that the Alpha doesn't. The SLEP VF-1 variant has even more speed and as much main body MDC as an Alpha.

1: They would be encountering Zentraedi under the command of the Robotech Masters, or forces that would function according to a similar doctrine that emphasized overwhelming numbers and speed of attack.

Then the VF-1, with its greater armament, would be the more advantageous choice... a Super Pack-equipped VF-1 carries over 100 missiles in the RPG. An Alpha carries 68. The VF-1 can also take reflex warheads, which are good for mopping up mobs of enemies, which neither the Alpha nor Beta can take.

2: After departing the Earth, it would be extremely difficult to replenish manpower.

Which, again, argues for the VF-1 with its superior speed, ordinance capacity, and a MDC-by-location breakdown that's equal to or superior to what the Alpha has.

3: Troops would be split between defending colony worlds and accompanying the main fleet.

... and since they had but one protoculture matrix to play with, the logical choice would've been a fusion-powered aircraft. You can get hydrogen pretty much anywhere, and the VF-1 can return to orbit under its own power. The Alpha needs a Beta for that, and as we know the Beta wasn't available until the 2040's.

4: The UEEF would need a simplified logistics chain and be able to organize its own sources of supply.

See the above WRT the availability of hydrogen vs. protoculture.

The Armor-class Aerospacecraft Carrier could only field one squadron of Valkyries, whilst the 1200 meter long SDF-1 possessed 240 VF-1s. By comparison, the Ikazuchi Carrier contained 305 Alpha Fighters, and even the diminutive Garfish could hold 9 VF/As. As such the UEEF could utilize far more Veritechs.

Three Four errors here:

1. Your SDF-1 stat is misleading... the SDF-1 carried 420 fighters according to its stats (320 in RT canon), but simply had a greater variety of fighter craft to play with. (The OSM version had 300+ VF-1's circa Ep.27 on top of their supply of drone fighters and the movie and the postwar mass production versions had a carrying capacity of over 650 fighters, in both cases not counting the other types of aircraft carried.)
2. The RPG stats for the ARMD-class show the presence of TWO squadrons of VF-1's. (pg139)
3. Those stats only represent the ARMD's in use early in the First Robotech War... and the RPG is taking considerable liberties with the stats here. The official Robotech stats indicate the ARMD-class could carry 382 fighters to the Ikazuchi-class's 144... the OSM indicates the ARMD-class carried 348 or more fighters early in the war, and postwar variants carried around 328 (262 of which were VF-1 Super Valkyries).
4. The Ikazuchi-class is also about half-again the size of an ARMD, so it's not a great parallel on that basis either.

The main weapon of the Alpha Fighter, the MM-60 Missile Delivery System, was also designed to further counter the numerical superiority of opponents they were most likely to face. The reasoning behind a large amount of short-range missiles was simple: to destroy a lot of opponents in a short period time, thus preventing the VF/As from being swarmed.

Those missiles only have a range of a few km... that's not going to stop you from being swarmed. Preventing a swarming means using a large, area-of-effect weapon to clear up mobs of foes long before they reach engagement range (like the reflex warheads which only the VF-1 can deploy in the RPG).

According to tests conducted against captured Battle-pods, [...]

Assuming, of course, all weapons hit... the VF-1 is a notably more accurate shot thanks to all those strike bonuses that apply to even burst-fire weapons.

Also, under even less-than-ideal conditions, a GU-11 can destroy a battlepod with room to spare in 2 bursts... the Alpha would need 4, minimum, and the Alpha's gun pod holds fewer bursts.

An Alpha Fighter carried multiple magazines which, when depleted, could be rapidly exchanged in Battloid mode. This meant the EU-13 could inflict a higher level of sustained damage.

This is not supported by the RPG or the canon stats... the Alpha does not carry replacement protoculture cells for its gun pod.

Finally, the VF/A was smaller and more heavily armoured,

As noted previously, the Alpha was indeed smaller... but the VF-1 variant in service at the time of the Alpha's introduction (VF-1R) has comparable MDC values.

It also utilized a unified energy supply system that meant it needed only one type of fuel: protoculture.

This is also technically not true.

As far as we know, protoculture fuel cannot be used as propellant for space flight... while the fusion engines of the VF-1 provide a ready source of propellant from the byproducts of the fusion process. The VF-1 needs one type of fuel, the Alpha needs to have a protoculture cell power system and a separate fuel tank system for propellant.

[Alrik Vas]

Basically, VF-1 is #1.

Honestly, an Alpha is like a slower, less maneuverable, more training intensive Quadrano with fewer missiles.

I don't understand the decision to switch no matter the edition. Unless the reasons were political or business-driven.

[ShadowLogan]

There's nothing in canon sources or the OSM to suggest this is the case... and the RPG gives them functionally identical computers, except for the size of the target recognition database.

That and the "special bonuses" given out that where introduced retroactively to earlier time periods in their later books.

Due to having blindly copy-pasted from the Macross OSM, the official Robotech stats for the VF-1 AND the RPG stats both accidentally inherited the UUM-7 micro-missile pod. It is perfectly possible to stick 60 missiles onto a VF-1 without resorting to any FAST packs. The VF-1 simply has greater versatility in its armaments, with the ability to carry medium or long-range ordinance... a capability none of its successor aircraft in Robotech have.

Not quite accurate here. The 15shot missile pod you mention is classified as a Mini-Missile Launcher by RAW. And a Mini-Missile is typically half as powerful (damage) as a short range missile, and can't reach as far between comparable types. In the RT.com Infopedia (before it went down, checked via wayback machine) the Alpha's actual mini-missile launcher (in 2E RPG) and the VF-1's 15shot Mini-Missile rack are both described as SRMs. So if we are upping the launcher on the VF-1, we might also have to do it to the Alpha if we are chaning the RAW.

Which, again, argues for the VF-1 with its superior speed, ordinance capacity, and a MDC-by-location breakdown that's equal to or superior to what the Alpha has.

I would actually argue that the Beta would be a better candidate than a VF-1 over an Alpha in this role. Especially if we are allowed to make adjustments to the Beta design by ditching the Alpha requirements, adjusting aerodynamics (which are likely partly influenced by the need to connect to an Alpha) and giving NG-era hardware the "special bonus" feature later books introduced.

The official Robotech stats indicate the ARMD-class could carry 382 fighters to the Ikazuchi-class's 144...

I will remind you that the Ikazuichi in the offical stats (at RT.com's infopedia earlier this year AND Art of the Shadow Chronicles book) also add in another "~440 additional mecha such as Beta Fighters, Numerous Shuttles, and auxiliary craft" after the 144 Alphas. Since neither source does a break down on the ~440figure... So depending on just what HG has in mind for those ~440 mecha, it could have just as many or more fighters as an ARMD.

Those missiles only have a range of a few km... that's not going to stop you from being swarmed. Preventing a swarming means using a large, area-of-effect weapon to clear up mobs of foes long before they reach engagement range (like the reflex warheads which only the VF-1 can deploy in the RPG).

NOT necessarily, that is ONE approach. I will remind you that in the show (not detailed in the RPG I admit) had 2 alphas (Rand/Rook) syncronize their MM-60s and swat down a swarm in a "death blossom" type attack (between them scoring ~37 kills), and it isn't the only time the Alpha spams missile volleys of varying sizes at groups of Invid mecha (though it is the most effective).

I would also remind you that in RT the VF-1 doesn't use its big heavy missiles for that role, they use them for anti-capital ship work. And by the 2E RPG those LRMs don't exactly have a big blast radius by RAW (30-100ft), much to narrow to really be an effective swarm killer unless the enemy is in real tight.

Assuming, of course, all weapons hit... the VF-1 is a notably more accurate shot thanks to all those strike bonuses that apply to even burst-fire weapons.

Actually it isn't. The EU-13/15 is +3native to strike vs GU-11's +1native+2SB. If we are networking them (ie Command models granting bonus) the Alpha has a better strike bonus via networking (neither qualify it with range or melee), plus if we are talking -6Z it might get another +2 due to the "all combat rolls" bonus the model has. If we allow aimed shots, the EU-13 can trade damage for accuracy (which is a bonus against Invid mecha and their Achilles Eye) that the GU-11 can't duplicate. Other bonuses are likely from skills that can be duplicated. So the Alpha has equal or better accuracy potential.

[Seto Kaiba]

That and the "special bonuses" given out that where introduced retroactively to earlier time periods in their later books.

There is that, yes... and the OSM for both shows makes absolutely zero mention of any kind of instability or extensive maintenance requirement for the control system. (Both aircraft are shown operating in what could be called post-apocalyptic conditions without significant maintenance requirements.)

Not quite accurate here. The 15shot missile pod you mention is classified as a Mini-Missile Launcher by RAW.

That'd be why I noted the RPG had misidentified the missiles, my friend. The underwing UUM-7 missile packs and the missile packs for the VF-1's NP-BP-01 OMS/RMS use the same model of missile in canon... the Bifors HMM-1. The forearm packs use the Erlikon GA-100.

I would actually argue that the Beta would be a better candidate than a VF-1 over an Alpha in this role.

Without modification, it's a pretty poor substitute... esp. since it can't take any heavy bombs or long-range missiles.

I will remind you that the Ikazuichi in the offical stats (at RT.com's infopedia earlier this year AND Art of the Shadow Chronicles book) also add in another "~440 additional mecha such as Beta Fighters, Numerous Shuttles, and auxiliary craft"

If we take the RPG as guidance (which it isn't, necessarily) most of those are Cyclones and troop landers. likewise, the OSM gives it only 144 fighters. I'm only concerned with explicitly-identified fighter aircraft.

NOT necessarily, that is ONE approach. I will remind you that in the show (not detailed in the RPG I admit) had 2 alphas (Rand/Rook) syncronize their MM-60s and swat down a swarm in a "death blossom" type attack (between them scoring ~37 kills), and it isn't the only time the Alpha spams missile volleys of varying sizes at groups of Invid mecha (though it is the most effective).

Micro-missile spam doesn't really keep you from getting swarmed, it just lets you deal with the swarm that's already on your doorstep (if you're lucky).

I would also remind you that in RT the VF-1 doesn't use its big heavy missiles for that role, they use them for anti-capital ship work. And by the 2E RPG those LRMs don't exactly have a big blast radius by RAW (30-100ft), much to narrow to really be an effective swarm killer unless the enemy is in real tight.

True, though there is an OSM-based case for them being used that way... and one in the RPG rules as well, though the RPG rather short-sells them the way it does with most human equipment. Still, since you can cram a couple of those bad boys on each wing, you've got a lot of kaboom to deal with swarms at long range.

Assuming, of course, all weapons hit... the VF-1 is a notably more accurate shot thanks to all those strike bonuses that apply to even burst-fire weapons.

Actually it isn't. The EU-13/15 is +3native to strike vs GU-11's +1native+2SB.

The difference there is between ice and frozen water... in burst-firing they're pretty much comparable due to the penalties incurred to strike bonuses there.

[Zer0 Kay]

No veritech could operate without a super complex control system that would also handle flight control. No veritech would ever use cable for its control systems with wire being the minimum and redundancies being mandatory. It would be more likely that by not being FBW it means they upgraded to FBF or for lack of a better term FBWF, those would be Fiber and Wi-Fi. Though any sort of remote network control would probably be more like Bluetooth so that the link is dedicated once connected. A FBWG or FBB would eliviate the need for the fragile cabling and the possibility or rather complexity required to keep the transportation media from being broken by the machines ability to transform.

[Seto Kaiba]

No veritech could operate without a super complex control system that would also handle flight control. No veritech would ever use cable for its control systems with wire being the minimum and redundancies being mandatory. It would be more likely that by not being FBW it means they upgraded to FBF or for lack of a better term FBWF, those would be Fiber and Wi-Fi.

Quite.

In fact, the OSM spec. for the Stonewell/Bellcom VF-1 Valkyrie clearly indicates it's using a fly-by-light AI-supported IFCS. The tech manuals also contend that it's all power-by-wire too.

(EDIT: Fly-by-wireless is probably right out in the Macross OSM, due to the way energy conversion armor works.)

[ShadowLogan]

That'd be why I noted the RPG had misidentified the missiles, my friend. The underwing UUM-7 missile packs and the missile packs for the VF-1's NP-BP-01 OMS/RMS use the same model of missile in canon... the Bifors HMM-1. The forearm packs use the Erlikon GA-100.

I get that, but HG classified them as SRM, the same as the Alpha's head missiles, both of which by the RPG are treated as Mini-Missiles. If someone decides that one should be switched then it is possible we would have to switch others.

Without modification, it's a pretty poor substitute... esp. since it can't take any heavy bombs or long-range missiles.

I would have to disagree, but that's really a discussion for another time. I will only add that the LRM issue is consistent with the 2E RPG, but not with AotSC/Infopedia writeup, though the RPG does allow for 2000lb bombs, which are heavy (must be one dense bomb).

If we take the RPG as guidance (which it isn't, necessarily) most of those are Cyclones and troop landers. likewise, the OSM gives it only 144 fighters. I'm only concerned with explicitly-identified fighter aircraft.

Granted, but the text outside of the RPG is vague and does allow for other hardware without much depth. So an Ik, acting as a fighter carrier (like the ARMD) is going to look different than one configured for multi-role or ground assault (which the RPG might be).

Micro-missile spam doesn't really keep you from getting swarmed, it just lets you deal with the swarm that's already on your doorstep (if you're lucky).

All am saying is that there are multiple ways to deal with the Swarm. You could also just bust out a Reflex or Syncro Cannon and sweep an area to.

. and one in the RPG rules as well, though the RPG rather short-sells them the way it does with most human equipment. Still, since you can cram a couple of those bad boys on each wing, you've got a lot of kaboom to deal with swarms at long range.

Not really by the RPG rules due to the blast radius. That would require the enemy to be grouped ridiculously close to be effective, even if you spam them. It might also be more cost effective to counter a swarm with another swarm. RT doesn't have cost for missiles to consider. If we use the Rifts RPG line for a rough cost estimate the cheapest LRM is 80x the cost of the cheapest SRM (more expensive ones are separated by even bigger gap), that would make an SRM swarm far more effective in terms of cost and possible kills.

I do not think it is necessarily the way they short-sell equipment, it is the way they have the system setup to deal with scale, which it does badly given we have man-size items with better MDC than some giant mecha in terms of MDC and mass, not to mention weapons...

The difference there is between ice and frozen water... in burst-firing they're pretty much comparable due to the penalties incurred to strike bonuses there.

[/quote][/quote]
No they are not. The Alpha doesn't discriminate the strike bonus between burst and single shot firing when it uses its gunpod in the specific entry so it would make sense it would apply to both. The WP skills yes, that is how they would work, but I do not think it would apply to the system bonuses unless specifically mentioned to apply to one attack or the other.

[Seto Kaiba]

I get that, but HG classified them as SRM, the same as the Alpha's head missiles, both of which by the RPG are treated as Mini-Missiles. If someone decides that one should be switched then it is possible we would have to switch others.

HG doesn't have mini-missiles in its stats... that's a RPG-ism.

(Though, you'll note, I did exactly that... I counted all sixty-eight missiles on the Alpha in my comparison. The RPG's notion of these missiles being unguided is just silly, and doesn't at all match the show.)

Granted, but the text outside of the RPG is vague and does allow for other hardware without much depth. So an Ik, acting as a fighter carrier (like the ARMD) is going to look different than one configured for multi-role or ground assault (which the RPG might be).

Depends... the ones in Shadow Chronicles seem to be configured as pure carriers, but also appear to be carrying far fewer than 144 fighters.

All am saying is that there are multiple ways to deal with the Swarm. You could also just bust out a Reflex or Syncro Cannon and sweep an area to.

This is very, VERY true... but for our purposes, we're comparing the fighters on their own merits.

Not really by the RPG rules due to the blast radius. That would require the enemy to be grouped ridiculously close to be effective, even if you spam them.

It's not enough to catch enormous numbers of pods all in one go, but 31m isn't anything to sneeze that... that'll take four or five of 'em out in one go (more if they're Invid) if they're flying in the kind of close formation we often see in the animation.

(Now if we had the missiles on levels seen in the animation... watch out, you could clear whole battalions with a single missile.)

[taalismn]

Using exclusively short range missiles may streamline the Alpha's logistics, but the integral launchers don't allow for versatility of payload. Now it cpuld be argued that a few long range missiles are less effective than a volley of SRMs, because an enemy can see an LRM coming and take action against it, better than at short range against SRMs, but the added mass and power of an LRM allows it to carry much more in the way of manuevaring fuel, sensors, countermeasures, and even a warhead of smaller missiles(the best of both worlds).
The addition of the Beta fighter addresses some of the concerns with regards to ordnance versatility, but if you're comparing the VF-1 vs the VAF-6 Alpha as individual aircraft and not as SYSTEMS, then the Alpha's still looking lackluster in the hardpoints.

[glitterboy2098]

the dig difference is the Alpha is an attack fighter, the Valkyrie is a high performance interceptor. like the difference between the F-14 Tomcat and A-7 Corsair.

[Alrik Vas]

As an attack platform it still needs work. Honestly I think the Valkyrie is a better multi-role anyway. Higher altitude strikes for one. Harder hitting ordinance from a longer range for two.

So in faster, out faster, with more punch, and from farther away.

[Seto Kaiba]

Using exclusively short range missiles may streamline the Alpha's logistics, but the integral launchers don't allow for versatility of payload.

Not to mention internalizing the launcher systems means there's more work to be done if new models of missile become available...

As a fun aside, since the missiles used by the Legioss/Alpha are roughly the same diameter as the VF-1's Bifors HMM-1 but 1/3 the length... so the VF-1's launchers (both the under-wing and FAST pack varieties) would likely be able to easily adopt the missiles on the Alpha and triple the capacity of its launchers with relatively little modification. (That would give the VF-1 the ability to carry a whopping 180 SRMs on its wings, and another 138 in its FAST pack!)

[...] but the added mass and power of an LRM allows it to carry much more in the way of manuevaring fuel, sensors, countermeasures, and even a warhead of smaller missiles(the best of both worlds).

Believe me, some of the stuff that the Macross setting has done with fighter-carried missiles turns all that up to 12, because 11 was insufficiently off the hook. My personal favorite is the AI-guided cruise missile... which is functionally a semi-autonomous drone fighter with its own SRMs and an internal warhead, made small enough to be hung from a hardpoint.

the dig difference is the Alpha is an attack fighter, the Valkyrie is a high performance interceptor. like the difference between the F-14 Tomcat and A-7 Corsair.

Not wishing to say you don't have a valid point (because you absolutely do), but if we're concerning ourselves with what's written rather than what's immediately obvious to us all, it becomes a rather different (facepalm-worthy) story.

The RPG asserts that both the Valkyrie and Alpha are multi-role aircraft. It specifically refers to the VF-1 as being an air superiority and attack craft (Manga Ed., pg54), and the Alpha as an aerospace superiority strike fighter (Manga Ed., page 97). The Infopedia is mute on the matter beyond alluding to both being multirole fighters, and AotSC inexplicably describes the Alpha as an interceptor...

So, while it might be rather obvious to all of us that the VF-1 is a multirole fighter and the Alpha is more a dedicated attacker built with close air support in mind, Robotech's official and RPG resources seem to be trying to assert these two radically different planes are meant for the same roles.

As an attack platform it still needs work. Honestly I think the Valkyrie is a better multi-role anyway. Higher altitude strikes for one. Harder hitting ordinance from a longer range for two.

So in faster, out faster, with more punch, and from farther away.

My read of the Legioss/Alpha has always been that it's something along the lines of a World War II-era ground attacker... like the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt. Something designed for low-altitude strafing runs and infantry support, the kind of role that's usually accomplished by attack helicopters these days.

The VF-1 Valkyrie is more along the lines of what the F-35 is supposed to be if they can ever get it working properly... a true multi-role fighter aircraft that can switch between air-to-air and air-to-ground freely, though it's a ground attacker in the more jet fighter sense of guided missiles and bombs from higher altitudes.

[taalismn]

Believe me, some of the stuff that the Macross setting has done with fighter-carried missiles turns all that up to 12, because 11 was insufficiently off the hook. My personal favorite is the AI-guided cruise missile... which is functionally a semi-autonomous drone fighter with its own SRMs and an internal warhead, made small enough to be hung from a hardpoint..

Reminds me of the Mechanismo* Gassi Fighter. It featured underwing cannon pods that were in reality ai-controled parasite fighters that could detach and attach using point-defense cluster lasers.

*This was an old 1980s sci-fi art book that combined a rather bland history of sci-fi with a space-opera databook using various artists' illustrations, clearly inspired by the success of Stewart Cowley's Terran Trade Authority books. It's probably best known for the cover painting of an F-4-style space fighter(the 'GGassi' mentioned above) and a ghoulish-looking robot guard floating in front of it.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

As an attack platform it still needs work. Honestly I think the Valkyrie is a better multi-role anyway. Higher altitude strikes for one. Harder hitting ordinance from a longer range for two.

So in faster, out faster, with more punch, and from farther away.

And yet the Queadlunn-Rau's were shown to maul the crap out of the Valkyrie......

[ByzantineBasileus]

I am aware of that. however I am looking for where it states the Alpha Fighter actually has how many?. In 1E the Alpha and VF-1 are both said to carry multiple spare clips for their respective gunpods clearly, we are not left guessing in terms of spares there. We do not have that in 2E.

If we follow that line of thought, then we should assume that UEEF infantry would not carry extra magazines when equipped with the M-25 Wolverine Assault Rifle because the RPG makes no mention of them carrying extra ones. But of course we don't, because we know that going into battle without extra ammunition would be absolutely stupid. The reason they did not describe how many extra magazines are carried is because they did not need to, it is obvious they would bring extra ammo.

[ByzantineBasileus]

This particular foible is an invention of the RPG's authors... but the VF-1 starts out markedly faster and more maneuverable than an Alpha anyway, and has auto-dodge bonuses that the Alpha doesn't. The SLEP VF-1 variant has even more speed and as much main body MDC as an Alpha..

Well, I am just providing an in universe justification for the difference. I will get to your points shortly.

[Seto Kaiba]

If we follow that line of thought, then we should assume that UEEF infantry would not carry extra magazines when equipped with the M-25 Wolverine Assault Rifle because the RPG makes no mention of them carrying extra ones. But of course we don't, because we know that going into battle without extra ammunition would be absolutely stupid. The reason they did not describe how many extra magazines are carried is because they did not need to, it is obvious they would bring extra ammo.

Three problems with this line of thinking:

1. Normally, when a mecha is equipped with a reloadable weapon and can be reloaded in combat, the weapon's stats include both a statement to that effect and the time it takes to perform the reloading operation. Neither piece of information is present in the stats RT2E has for the Alpha fighter, which suggests that the mecha is not capable of reloading the weapon itself.
   
2. An infantryman carrying spare magazines for his personal firearm is different... that's a matter of character inventory rather than significant onboard storage space inside of a mecha. It's generally a safe assumption that a character has pockets in his trousers, or some other kind of storage like a Cyclone's saddlebags or at least a backpack. Storage compartments in mecha are explicitly called out in their stats.
   
3. The Alpha fighter has nowhere to store spare magazines... the only storage compartment is the wrong size and shape, and holds the Cyclone.

[ByzantineBasileus]

Outside of the RPG one of the reasons given for the development of the Beta was the Alpha's limited propellant tankage (separate from the PC). It isn't mentioned w/re to the Alpha in the 2E RPG, but is mentioned in the Beta entry (pg112m "It also increase the Alpa's fuel capacity"). Propellant is a generic term, that includes both fuel and oxidizer in rocketry. So in space a given mecha's propellant load is important. Said factor is not really considered or addressed in the game stats, fortunately/unfortunately depending on one's POV.

I am discussing things in the context of the RPG-universe. The Alpha Fighter in this respects is superior to the VF-1 Valkyrie.

I agree that the ASC had a different focus, but production cost goes down as numbers go up. In the 1990s while the F-22 was being developed planned production numbers where being cut due to escalating costs, which resulted in additional raised costs. So a cost metric does not work to explain anything since increased production should lower the cost.

Nor should the finickiness of the system matter in this case if you have spares. Or elect to go with a more robust design that was clearly available. If anything the VF-1 should have the lest impressive FBW system since it is 1st gen Veritech Technology.

In terms of in-universe justification, despite the issue of production costs going down, one could imagine they were unable to develop a more robust design as Mecha are expected to engage in close combat and thus take extensive damage. They had no way of ensuring that the fly-by-wire system would not go down after taking hits. This is different to air-craft which would usually fight at a distance and rely on counter-measures.

Irrelevant. 1vs1, the EU-13 can not do what you say it does. You may have more missiles and mecha out there, but the weapon system in question is not out damaging a GU-11 individually. Which is important if you are expecting to be at a numerical disadvantage.

I acknowledge that the GU-11 does more damage, but I am looking at things from the perspective of the mission of the UEEF. A VF-1 Alpha would be used like conventional fighter craft - go on a sortie and then return to base to re-arm. The UEEF needed mecha that could operate for extended periods, without the expectation that they could immediately return. Hence the large number of missiles, fuel capacity and magazines for the EU-13. The lower damage was a trade-off for extended ammunition capacity in the form of magazines.

[ByzantineBasileus]

There's really nothing to support that part of your theory... remember, even in the RPG, the VF-1 is tipped as being the main VF for the entire UEDF. They were planning to re-arm a global military force with the VF-1... that means building them by the thousands, and likely the only thing that stopped production was the loss of the factories themselves during the orbital bombardment.

(As the Macross OSM has it, the VF-1 was actually fairly cheap as VF's go... and over 5,000 VF-1 Valkyries had been built by December 2011.)

But that was with an infrastructure and industrial capacity that was not devastated by the Zentraedi invasion.

There's nothing in canon sources or the OSM to suggest this is the case... and the RPG gives them functionally identical computers, except for the size of the target recognition database.

I am aware of that. I am speculating in a creative context to try rationalize the differences. The meta-explanation is obviously "they came up with new ideas after the first book was released".

This, also, does not line up with existing facts. Due to having blindly copy-pasted from the Macross OSM, the official Robotech stats for the VF-1 AND the RPG stats both accidentally inherited the UUM-7 micro-missile pod. It is perfectly possible to stick 60 missiles onto a VF-1 without resorting to any FAST packs. The VF-1 simply has greater versatility in its armaments, with the ability to carry medium or long-range ordinance... a capability none of its successor aircraft in Robotech have.

I am arguing from the stand-point of the rpg universe. The Alpha was paired with the conbat, meaning its mission was a different. Yes, it could do air-superiority and interception, but it was designed as a strike fighter that also had the capacity to engage air and land mecha in close-combat rather than dog-fighting in the conventional sense.

Slap the Super Pack on there, and you've got 56% more missiles to play with than the Alpha.

But within the boundaries of the RPG the UEEF did not do this, and I am speculating that the issue was cost.

This particular foible is an invention of the RPG's authors... but the VF-1 starts out markedly faster and more maneuverable than an Alpha anyway, and has auto-dodge bonuses that the Alpha doesn't. The SLEP VF-1 variant has even more speed and as much main body MDC as an Alpha.

But again, the UEEF switched to the Alpha, which would suggest that there was something that made the VF-1 unattractive for their mission, which was cost and lack of long-range endurance.

Then the VF-1, with its greater armament, would be the more advantageous choice... a Super Pack-equipped VF-1 carries over 100 missiles in the RPG. An Alpha carries 68. The VF-1 can also take reflex warheads, which are good for mopping up mobs of enemies, which neither the Alpha nor Beta can take.

The Shadow Chronicles RPG mentions that Reflex weapons are very rare, so I do not think the UEEF had the luxury of equipping every single fighter with one. The expense of the VF-1 also made this impractical.

Which, again, argues for the VF-1 with its superior speed, ordinance capacity, and a MDC-by-location breakdown that's equal to or superior to what the Alpha has.

The Alpha has superior MDC for the main body and is faster in Battloid and Gerwalk mode. If we look at total damage that can be done by missile payloads, the Alpha can do 7200 mdc with its short-range missiles. With medium range missiles the VF-1 can do 3600 MDC total. With long-range missiles, a full payload of proton torpedoes can do 3240 mdc. The VF-1 with its GU-11 gunpod can do 3000 MDC, but then loses its main weapon. The EU-13 can do a maximum of 800 MDC per magazine, but since every law of combat plausibility states it would have multiple magazines, an Alpha Fighter with 5 magazines can do 4000 MDC total.

... and since they had but one protoculture matrix to play with, the logical choice would've been a fusion-powered aircraft. You can get hydrogen pretty much anywhere, and the VF-1 can return to orbit under its own power. The Alpha needs a Beta for that, and as we know the Beta wasn't available until the 2040's.

One matrix, but many, many reactors. The matrix was needed to replenish a reactor, but the UEEF had a very large reserve of Protoculture. And the Macross RPG book states the VF-1 needs a booster pack to escape orbit.

Your SDF-1 stat is misleading... the SDF-1 carried 420 fighters according to its stats (320 in RT canon), but simply had a greater variety of fighter craft to play with. (The OSM version had 300+ VF-1's circa Ep.27 on top of their supply of drone fighters and the movie and the postwar mass production versions had a carrying capacity of over 650 fighters, in both cases not counting the other types of aircraft carried.)

[*] The RPG stats for the ARMD-class show the presence of TWO squadrons of VF-1's. (pg139)
[*] Those stats only represent the ARMD's in use early in the First Robotech War... and the RPG is taking considerable liberties with the stats here. The official Robotech stats indicate the ARMD-class could carry 382 fighters to the Ikazuchi-class's 144... the OSM indicates the ARMD-class carried 348 or more fighters early in the war, and postwar variants carried around 328 (262 of which were VF-1 Super Valkyries).
[*] The Ikazuchi-class is also about half-again the size of an ARMD, so it's not a great parallel on that basis either.[/list]

The SDF had 240 Veritech fighters, according to the Macross Sourcebook (and again I am operating within the RPG univerise), and 48 of those were EWAR and thus useless for battle. The extra fighters came from the aircraft carrier, so is not really part of the standard complement.

Likewise the ARMD had 12 EWAR fighters which were useless for battle.

The UEEF did not have the luxury of large numbers of different fighters. It was the Alpha and Conbat, later the Alpha and Beta.

Those missiles only have a range of a few km... that's not going to stop you from being swarmed. Preventing a swarming means using a large, area-of-effect weapon to clear up mobs of foes long before they reach engagement range (like the reflex warheads which only the VF-1 can deploy in the RPG).

Large area effect weapons are costly, and as a strike fighter the Alpha was intended for close range combat against ground and air-borne mecha, not dog-fighting and air-superiority like the VF-1.

Assuming, of course, all weapons hit... the VF-1 is a notably more accurate shot thanks to all those strike bonuses that apply to even burst-fire weapons.

Also, under even less-than-ideal conditions, a GU-11 can destroy a battlepod with room to spare in 2 bursts... the Alpha would need 4, minimum, and the Alpha's gun pod holds fewer bursts.

The EU-13 has a +3 bonus to strike, and whilst it has fewer bursts it has more ammunition thanks to the magazines,

As noted previously, the Alpha was indeed smaller... but the VF-1 variant in service at the time of the Alpha's introduction (VF-1R) has comparable MDC values.

But still had all the weaknesses associated with the delicacy of the fly-by-wire and computer systems. And was also still very expensive.

As far as we know, protoculture fuel cannot be used as propellant for space flight... while the fusion engines of the VF-1 provide a ready source of propellant from the byproducts of the fusion process. The VF-1 needs one type of fuel, the Alpha needs to have a protoculture cell power system and a separate fuel tank system for propellant.

The RPG does not support this assertion at all. It states the Alpha only needs Protoculture cells and can fly in space, so it is obvious the propulsion system functions on Protoculture.

[ByzantineBasileus]

If we follow that line of thought, then we should assume that UEEF infantry would not carry extra magazines when equipped with the M-25 Wolverine Assault Rifle because the RPG makes no mention of them carrying extra ones. But of course we don't, because we know that going into battle without extra ammunition would be absolutely stupid. The reason they did not describe how many extra magazines are carried is because they did not need to, it is obvious they would bring extra ammo.

Three problems with this line of thinking:

1. Normally, when a mecha is equipped with a reloadable weapon and can be reloaded in combat, the weapon's stats include both a statement to that effect and the time it takes to perform the reloading operation. Neither piece of information is present in the stats RT2E has for the Alpha fighter, which suggests that the mecha is not capable of reloading the weapon itself.
   
2. An infantryman carrying spare magazines for his personal firearm is different... that's a matter of character inventory rather than significant onboard storage space inside of a mecha. It's generally a safe assumption that a character has pockets in his trousers, or some other kind of storage like a Cyclone's saddlebags or at least a backpack. Storage compartments in mecha are explicitly called out in their stats.
   
3. The Alpha fighter has nowhere to store spare magazines... the only storage compartment is the wrong size and shape, and holds the Cyclone.

So you assume the infantryman has the capacity in his uniform to carry extra magazines, but the Alpha, which is equipped with a weapon that can exchange magazines, was for some reason built without the ability to store them? Likewise the RPG states the magazines can be exchanged easily, but because it does not give exact mechanics it cannot be done? All that is required is simple extrapolation. The time it takes a character to change a magazine is the time it takes an Alpha in battloid mode to do so. Really, its so elementary that it falls under the category if "does not need to be explained".

[Seto Kaiba]

I am discussing things in the context of the RPG-universe. The Alpha Fighter in this respects is superior to the VF-1 Valkyrie.

Er... help me out here. If the aspect of flight range in space is not actually covered in the RPG's fluff or crunch, how can the Alpha's performance in that respect be superior to the VF-1's?

In terms of in-universe justification, despite the issue of production costs going down, one could imagine they were unable to develop a more robust design as Mecha are expected to engage in close combat and thus take extensive damage. They had no way of ensuring that the fly-by-wire system would not go down after taking hits.

Um... almost certainly not, considering the Army of the Southern Cross's VF's get the the same style of computer-based bonuses in their stats that the VF-1 does, but they lack the fly-by-wire damage penalties described on page 56 of the Macross Saga book. Put simply, the durability problem was obviously resolved.

A VF-1 Alpha would be used like conventional fighter craft - go on a sortie and then return to base to re-arm.

Last I checked, the VF-1 Valkyrie had enough fuel for 48 hours of continuous deployment in the RPG.

The UEEF needed mecha that could operate for extended periods, without the expectation that they could immediately return. Hence the large number of missiles, fuel capacity and magazines for the EU-13. The lower damage was a trade-off for extended ammunition capacity in the form of magazines.

Ironically, the RPG asserts pretty much the exact opposite of that on page 111... the Alpha's inability to return to its carrier in orbit under its own power at will is described as a "logistical nightmare" for the UEEF. A nightmare that it took almost twenty years for UEEF engineers to sort out. (Amusingly, not an issue for the VF-1, which has multiple options to get orbital without a second VF to push it... including the canon option of just flying there under its own power without any kind of support.)

Also, as previously noted, the VF-1 can take a similarly large number of missiles and a variety of other ordinance that not even the Beta and Condor can take... and the GU-11 holds 25% more bursts than the EU-13 (25 vs. 20) and, on average, with each of those bursts doing an average of 2.8x as much damage (a mean of 70MD vs. 25MD). The Alpha's stats do not indicate that it carries any spare magazines, or that it has anywhere where it might carry spare magazines, nor does it indicate that the Alpha itself is able to reload the weapon.

[eliakon]

The UEEF needed mecha that could operate for extended periods, without the expectation that they could immediately return. Hence the large number of missiles, fuel capacity and magazines for the EU-13. The lower damage was a trade-off for extended ammunition capacity in the form of magazines.

Ironically, the RPG asserts pretty much the exact opposite of that on page 111... the Alpha's inability to return to its carrier in orbit under its own power at will is described as a "logistical nightmare" for the UEEF. A nightmare that it took almost twenty years for UEEF engineers to sort out. (Amusingly, not an issue for the VF-1, which has multiple options to get orbital without a second VF to push it... including the canon option of just flying there under its own power without any kind of support.)

I am having trouble finding this quote on page 111 that says that Alpha's can not return to carriers an that it is a logistical nightmare....
Can you quote the entire sentence that says this, and tell me what paragraph it is in and what section that paragraph is in? Thanks.

[Seto Kaiba]

But that was with an infrastructure and industrial capacity that was not devastated by the Zentraedi invasion.

That was also without possession of multiple factory satellites designed to equip a force of millions of ships... the sort of absolutely insane manufacturing muscle that dwarfs most civilizations.

(and, in both Robotech and the OSM, the orbital bombardment doesn't seem to have stopped the production and maintenance of VF-1's in the field.)

I am speculating in a creative context to try rationalize the differences.

A rationalization of the differences should fit the evidence, not fly in its face.

I am arguing from the stand-point of the rpg universe. The Alpha was paired with the conbat, meaning its mission was a different.

I'm afraid not... as noted previously, the RPG describes both the VF-1 and Alpha as air-superiority and ground attack planes.

But within the boundaries of the RPG the UEEF did not do this, and I am speculating that the issue was cost.

The Marines book seems to contradict that assertion, given that the Marine CAS pilot MOS specifically mentions them using Super Valkyries (pages 35 and 63 of the Expeditionary Force Marines sourcebook, and are described as continuing in service until the Beta's introduction).

But again, the UEEF switched to the Alpha, which would suggest that there was something that made the VF-1 unattractive for their mission, which was cost and lack of long-range endurance.

Long-range endurance clearly isn't the case, since the VF-1 didn't need a whole second plane bolted to it to reach orbit from a planetary surface or to extend its range in space. Cost is just silly... as the VF-1 uses a much more accessible fuel, and was already an established platform with existing production infrastructure.

The Shadow Chronicles RPG mentions that Reflex weapons are very rare, so I do not think the UEEF had the luxury of equipping every single fighter with one. The expense of the VF-1 also made this impractical.

Rare does not mean unobtainable, and since the SDF-3 had the sole protoculture matrix left in the galaxy it would be the place that you would most expect to find reflex warheads in large numbers. The cost thing, well, there's nothing to support it.

The Alpha has superior MDC for the main body

Not compared to the version in service during the 2020's it doesn't... the VF-1R and Alpha both have 420.

[...] and is faster in Battloid and Gerwalk mode.

Only marginally, thanks to the VF-1R's speed bonuses, though if you're trying to achieve top speed in GERWALK or Battloid you're doing it wrong... that's what fighter is for.

The EU-13 can do a maximum of 800 MDC per magazine, but since every law of combat plausibility states it would have multiple magazines, an Alpha Fighter with 5 magazines can do 4000 MDC total.

Per its stats, the Alpha does not carry multiple magazines in the RPG, in canon, or in the OSM... so we can safely discard this supposition as unsupported.

One matrix, but many, many reactors. The matrix was needed to replenish a reactor, but the UEEF had a very large reserve of Protoculture. And the Macross RPG book states the VF-1 needs a booster pack to escape orbit.

Strictly speaking, the RPG says the VF-1 can use a FAST pack or booster to reach orbit... it doesn't say it can't get there on its own, the way it's shown doing in the series, and the way it explicitly says the Alpha CAN'T do.

The UEEF did not have the luxury of large numbers of different fighters. It was the Alpha and Conbat, later the Alpha and Beta.

Please note that this is false, per the remarks in the core book and Marines book about the UEEF using Zentradi fighter pods and Super Valkyries as well.

Large area effect weapons are costly, and as a strike fighter the Alpha was intended for close range combat against ground and air-borne mecha, not dog-fighting and air-superiority like the VF-1.

That's not what the RPG says... the RPG says it's for air superiority operations too!

The EU-13 has a +3 bonus to strike, and whilst it has fewer bursts it has more ammunition thanks to the magazines,

Again, baseless supposition. The Alpha's stats do not support it carrying spare magazines.

But still had all the weaknesses associated with the delicacy of the fly-by-wire and computer systems.

But greater performance by far... an acceptable tradeoff, considering the cost aspect has no foundation in fact in the RPG.

The RPG does not support this assertion at all. It states the Alpha only needs Protoculture cells and can fly in space, so it is obvious the propulsion system functions on Protoculture.

Actually, the RPG does mention it in the Beta entry... about the need for extra fuel for space flight, but then propellant budgeting is not actually part of the game system, so it's merely an allusion to a canon fact.

So you assume the infantryman has the capacity in his uniform to carry extra magazines, but the Alpha, which is equipped with a weapon that can exchange magazines, was for some reason built without the ability to store them?

Yes, because the infantryman's equipment listing in the rules specifically and explicitly mentions carrying spare magazines... while stats for the Alpha do not mention the fighter carrying any spare magazines, or having the ability to reload its gunpod on its own in Palladium's usual fashion for mecha with reloadable weapons.

If it's not listed, it's not present. That shouldn't need explaining.

[ByzantineBasileus]

Er... help me out here. If the aspect of flight range in space is not actually covered in the RPG's fluff or crunch, how can the Alpha's performance in that respect be superior to the VF-1's?

The VF/A can operate for a month without needing the refuel. The VF-1 can only do so for 48 hours, meaning the VF/A has superior endurance.

Um... almost certainly not, considering the Army of the Southern Cross's VF's get the the same style of computer-based bonuses in their stats that the VF-1 does, but they lack the fly-by-wire damage penalties described on page 56 of the Macross Saga book. Put simply, the durability problem was obviously resolved. .

Hmm, you have point there. Okay, new fanwank: the fly-by-wire and computer systems were still very expensive and the UEEF still preferred large numbers of Veritech mecha, and so were willing to accept the trade-off in performance.

Last I checked, the VF-1 Valkyrie had enough fuel for 48 hours of continuous deployment in the RPG.

Yes, but that is not the same as ammunition. After the missile and GU-11 payload was exhausted, the VF-1 could only fight with the head-lasers, meaning it was no longer a viable combat asset. Hence the need to return to base.

Also, as previously noted, the VF-1 can take a similarly large number of missiles and a variety of other ordinance that not even the Beta and Condor can take... and the GU-11 holds 25% more bursts than the EU-13 (25 vs. 20) and, on average, with each of those bursts doing an average of 2.8x as much damage (a mean of 70MD vs. 25MD). The Alpha's stats do not indicate that it carries any spare magazines, or that it has anywhere where it might carry spare magazines, nor does it indicate that the Alpha itself is able to reload the weapon.

But since the UEEF did not use the VF-1 as a standard fighter, we have to assume there was a reason for doing so. The cost of the base air-frame plus upgrades meant it was not viable for the doctrine the UEEF followed. An again, it would make no sense for the Alpha to have a weapon that could change magazines and yet not have a capacity to store and change them.

Also, the Garfish, Tristar and Ikazuchi could all operate in Earth atmosphere, and the RPG also mentions they did not have the tech to develop the Beta until later in the conflict, so I expect they just made do.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am having trouble finding this quote on page 111 that says that Alpha's can not return to carriers an that it is a logistical nightmare....
Can you quote the entire sentence that says this, and tell me what paragraph it is in and what section that paragraph is in? Thanks.

Certainly, my good chum.

Sentences 2 and 3 of the bottom paragraph, right column.

Their non-transatmospheric nature limited the Alpha's operational range to wherever they were shipped. This became more and more of a logistical nightmare as the UEEF Pioneer Expedition made contact with more worlds and the Alphas were expected to operate in and out of atmosphere on a regular basis.

EDIT: Missed the last "and" in the second sentence.

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF/A can operate for a month without needing the refuel. The VF-1 can only do so for 48 hours, meaning the VF/A has superior endurance.

That's power plant endurance, not space flight fuel endurance. Apples and oranges. The RPG outright ignores propellant use in space flight because who the hell wants to be doing heavy physics when they're role-playing?

Hmm, you have point there. Okay, new fanwank: the fly-by-wire and computer systems were still very expensive and the UEEF still preferred large numbers of Veritech mecha, and so were willing to accept the trade-off in performance.

But they made large numbers of Logans and AGACs, and page 63 of the Marines book indicates that the UEEF used Logans too... so that can't be the case either.

Yes, but that is not the same as ammunition. After the missile and GU-11 payload was exhausted, the VF-1 could only fight with the head-lasers, meaning it was no longer a viable combat asset. Hence the need to return to base.

The same's true for the Alpha... so, what was your point? At least the VF-1's fallback weapons can be used in all modes, the Alpha can't make the same boast (its lasers being part of its arse in battloid mode).

But since the UEEF did not use the VF-1 as a standard fighter, [...]

The VF-1 Super Valkyrie was one of the standard VF's of the UEEF Marines until the introduction of the Beta in the late 2030's and early 2040's... and they're mentioned as being the most common of the older mecha in use as well. Gotta hand it to the VF-1, it's a survivor... and apparently a prized UEEF Marine Corps asset.

An again, it would make no sense for the Alpha to have a weapon that could change magazines and yet not have a capacity to store and change them.

It could speed servicing by a qualified technician... instead of having to hook up an autoloader carriage and reload an internal magazine, he could remove the external magazine and replace it. (But it's worth noting the "easily changed magazine" is not a feature described in canon or the OSM... so it being slightly illogical is only to be expected.)

Also, the Garfish, Tristar and Ikazuchi could all operate in Earth atmosphere, and the RPG also mentions they did not have the tech to develop the Beta until later in the conflict, so I expect they just made do.

That'd be the "logistical nightmare" aspect of it... plus, who really wants to expose the entire warship to danger to recover fighters that can't ascend to orbit when you could use fighters that are just as capable (if not more so), use more economical fuel, and can ascend to orbit under their own power?

[eliakon]

I am having trouble finding this quote on page 111 that says that Alpha's can not return to carriers an that it is a logistical nightmare....
Can you quote the entire sentence that says this, and tell me what paragraph it is in and what section that paragraph is in? Thanks.

Certainly, my good chum.

Sentences 2 and 3 of the bottom paragraph, right column.

Their non-transatmospheric nature limited the Alpha's operational range to wherever they were shipped. This became more and more of a logistical nightmare as the UEEF Pioneer Expedition made contact with more worlds and the Alphas were expected to operate in and out of atmosphere on a regular basis.

EDIT: Missed the last "and" in the second sentence.

Ummm that says that they were non-trasatmospheric....not that they couldn't land on their ships.....there is a wee bit of a difference between 'can not take off from a world on its own' and 'can not land on a space ship'

[ByzantineBasileus]

That's power plant endurance, not space flight fuel endurance. Apples and oranges. The RPG outright ignores propellant use in space flight because who the hell wants to be doing heavy physics when they're role-playing?

According to the RPG, the Protoculture supply powers the engines both in atmosphere and in space. The SC main-book says that using fusion power decreases speed by two thirds for the Alpha, which means that the engines rely on Protoculture for power if fusion power is so ineffective.

But they made large numbers of Logans and AGACs, and page 63 of the Marines book indicates that the UEEF used Logans too... so that can't be the case either.

The Southern Cross book says they increased manufacture of Veritech mecha, not that they were available in large numbers. The Tristar class only carried one hundred AGAX, whilst the UEEF used far larger numbers of Alphas on their ships. This must mean there was a reason for why Alphas are used in larger numbers compared to Logans and AGAX. I presume because of cost. Plus Logans were not the main mecha of the UEEF.

The same's true for the Alpha... so, what was your point? At least the VF-1's fallback weapons can be used in all modes, the Alpha can't make the same boast (its lasers being part of its arse in battloid mode).

But it still had the EU-13, which could be easily reloaded. Lasers for Fighter mode, EU-13 for Gerwalk and Battloid mode. Plus its short-range missile allowed it more endurance in battle.

The VF-1 Super Valkyrie was one of the standard VF's of the UEEF Marines until the introduction of the Beta in the late 2030's and early 2040's... and they're mentioned as being the most common of the older mecha in use as well. Gotta hand it to the VF-1, it's a survivor... and apparently a prized UEEF Marine Corps asset.

I can't address this as the Marines book has not been released in Australian yet.

It could speed servicing by a qualified technician... instead of having to hook up an autoloader carriage and reload an internal magazine, he could remove the external magazine and replace it. (But it's worth noting the "easily changed magazine" is not a feature described in canon or the OSM... so it being slightly illogical is only to be expected.)

Hard to do in the field or under combat conditions. Plus we are going with the RPG universe here, so OSM is not part of the discussion.

That'd be the "logistical nightmare" aspect of it... plus, who really wants to expose the entire warship to danger to recover fighters that can't ascend to orbit when you could use fighters that are just as capable (if not more so), use more economical fuel, and can ascend to orbit under their own power?

VF-1s had the same limitation, and the Alpha was more economical for the UEEF since the VF/A used the same unified energy system as the whole fleet.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ummm that says that they were non-trasatmospheric....not that they couldn't land on their ships.....there is a wee bit of a difference between 'can not take off from a world on its own' and 'can not land on a space ship'

Being non-transatmospheric (not being able to reach space from the planet's surface) kind of implies that they're not going to be able to return to the ships in orbit to land on a carrier and be resupplied... or even just return to space, period, without outside assistance.

That's a pretty freaking significant problem when you're operating a military expedition whose primary MO is orbit-to-surface assaults... if something goes wrong, your fighters are SCREWED.

[ByzantineBasileus]

Ummm that says that they were non-trasatmospheric....not that they couldn't land on their ships.....there is a wee bit of a difference between 'can not take off from a world on its own' and 'can not land on a space ship'

Being non-transatmospheric (not being able to reach space from the planet's surface) kind of implies that they're not going to be able to return to the ships in orbit to land on a carrier and be resupplied... or even just return to space, period, without outside assistance.

That's a pretty freaking significant problem when you're operating a military expedition whose primary MO is orbit-to-surface assaults... if something goes wrong, your fighters are SCREWED.

Which is why ships could enter the Atmosphere, plus one would assume the main battle would be fought in space, so once space superiority is established, all that is needed is mopping up in the atmosphere, plus not every planet had the same gravity as earth.

[eliakon]

Ummm that says that they were non-trasatmospheric....not that they couldn't land on their ships.....there is a wee bit of a difference between 'can not take off from a world on its own' and 'can not land on a space ship'

Being non-transatmospheric (not being able to reach space from the planet's surface) kind of implies that they're not going to be able to return to the ships in orbit to land on a carrier and be resupplied... or even just return to space, period, without outside assistance.

That's a pretty freaking significant problem when you're operating a military expedition whose primary MO is orbit-to-surface assaults... if something goes wrong, your fighters are SCREWED.

Its a good thing that their transports CAN enter the atmosphere and pick them up.
Which is in fact probably why it would be a logistical nightmare....you have to send a taxi to pick up your Alpha's every time. Real pain in the rear. But the ships can land on their carriers....just as long as the carrier is where ever the Alpha is.....

[Seto Kaiba]

According to the RPG, the Protoculture supply powers the engines both in atmosphere and in space.

Yes, it powers the engines... it does not provide reaction mass (fuel/propellant) for maneuvering in space.

The SC main-book says that using fusion power decreases speed by two thirds for the Alpha, which means that the engines rely on Protoculture for power if fusion power is so ineffective.

That's a misleading and inaccurate statement... the core book says the Alpha's small backup fusion generator (which is only designed to support VTOL and flight capabilities in emergencies) can only run the engines 1/3 speed. It's not a deficiency in fusion power, it's the fact that it's a small, backup power source not intended to run the mecha at combat levels.

The Southern Cross book says they increased manufacture of Veritech mecha, not that they were available in large numbers.

The Logan was the primary fighter of the TASC until the AGACs was introduced, and the RPG makes the ASC out to have had MANY more soldiers than it actually had in canon.

The Tristar class only carried one hundred AGAX, whilst the UEEF used far larger numbers of Alphas on their ships. This must mean there was a reason for why Alphas are used in larger numbers compared to Logans and AGAX. I presume because of cost. Plus Logans were not the main mecha of the UEEF.

Goodness, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Tristar-class being substantially smaller than the Ikazuchi-class... or that they were sharing hangar space with 120 additional fighters.

But it still had the EU-13, which could be easily reloaded. Lasers for Fighter mode, EU-13 for Gerwalk and Battloid mode. Plus its short-range missile allowed it more endurance in battle.

*Sigh* Easily reloaded... with the magazines the mecha's stats don't say it carries, which means precisely nothing.

The VF-1 has lasers available in all modes... a minimum of three, and as many as six laser weapons on the airframe depending on variant. (The Alpha tops out at two.) The VF-1R variant common in that period also has an independently operated autocannon on the head available in all modes. WRT missiles, the Marines favor the Super Valkyrie, so it's got 46 SRMs to play with before you start counting what's hung on the wings... that gives the VF-1 a considerable edge.

I can't address this as the Marines book has not been released in Australian yet.

I'd think the bare fact that we're told the VF-1 Super Valkyrie was the most common retained mecha in the Marine inventory, AND that the Marines continued using it even after the Alpha was introduced, would tend to stand on its own...

Hard to do in the field or under combat conditions. Plus we are going with the RPG universe here, so OSM is not part of the discussion.

OK, so you just have an illogical statement in the books about an easily-reloaded gunpod for a mecha that doesn't carry spares and can't reload it anyway... I was just explaining WHY it doesn't make any logical sense, and why the Alpha's payload doesn't include a spare magazine or two (because the OSM and official RT stats don't say the gunpod can be easily reloaded).

VF-1s had the same limitation, and the Alpha was more economical for the UEEF since the VF/A used the same unified energy system as the whole fleet.

There is nothing in the VF-1's writeup that says it cannot reach orbit under its own power... which it is perfectly capable of doing in the OSM and RT Canon. Such a limitation IS explicitly given with respect to the Alpha though. Also, the Marines book establishes that the UEEF has more than one type of fusion-powered mecha in its inventory, so the supply chain is well-established.

The Alpha was less economical because:

• Protoculture is an extremely scarce commodity that is near-impossible to produce. (e.g. why the UEEF is utterly hosed now that they've lost the matrix)
• Using protoculture requires the craft maintain a separate fuel system for space-use propellant. (not relevant to RPG stats, but factual nonetheless for the RT setting.)
• You can quite literally get hydrogen just about anywhere in the universe... most common element and all that, plus metallic hydrogen occurs naturally in gas giants, and guess what Tirol orbits? Use hydrogen fusion and all of creation is your gas station.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which is why ships could enter the Atmosphere, plus one would assume the main battle would be fought in space, so once space superiority is established, all that is needed is mopping up in the atmosphere, plus not every planet had the same gravity as earth.

One would assume incorrectly... as depicted in the old Sentinels materials, the new canon comics, the Marines book, etc., most UEEF warfare was orbit-to-surface landing operations and planet-side warfare. The Invid don't really go in for space battles much, as they kind of suck at them on account of having a grand total of one spaceship with offensive weaponry.

The point, of course, is that it's hideously inconvenient to have your carriers enter the atmosphere to recover your fighters even if the fight is going well or already over... and very likely suicidal if the fight is going poorly or has turned into a rout.

Its a good thing that their transports CAN enter the atmosphere and pick them up.
Which is in fact probably why it would be a logistical nightmare....you have to send a taxi to pick up your Alpha's every time. Real pain in the rear. But the ships can land on their carriers....just as long as the carrier is where ever the Alpha is.....

Yes... but the point is you have to bring some kind of transport to the fighter, rather than having the fighter return under its own power. If the fight turns against you and it's not safe enough to bring your ships down, your pilots are dead because they have no way to reach a ship in orbit for recovery.

[Zer0 Kay]

No veritech could operate without a super complex control system that would also handle flight control. No veritech would ever use cable for its control systems with wire being the minimum and redundancies being mandatory. It would be more likely that by not being FBW it means they upgraded to FBF or for lack of a better term FBWF, those would be Fiber and Wi-Fi.

Quite.

In fact, the OSM spec. for the Stonewell/Bellcom VF-1 Valkyrie clearly indicates it's using a fly-by-light AI-supported IFCS. The tech manuals also contend that it's all power-by-wire too.

(EDIT: Fly-by-wireless is probably right out in the Macross OSM, due to the way energy conversion armor works.)

Hmm, I have no clue about energy conversion armor but if it interferes with wifi/bluetooth tech it'd probably mess with wire, leaving only cable or fiber and cable wouldn't be fast enough to balance a mecha or provide the reaction times we see in RT.

[ByzantineBasileus]

Yes, it powers the engines... it does not provide reaction mass (fuel/propellant) for maneuvering in space.

Except that it obviously does, since the Alpha can fly in space. It has engines that can convert protoculture into thrust that can be used to fly in both space and atmosphere.

That's a misleading and inaccurate statement... the core book says the Alpha's small backup fusion generator (which is only designed to support VTOL and flight capabilities in emergencies) can only run the engines 1/3 speed. It's not a deficiency in fusion power, it's the fact that it's a small, backup power source not intended to run the mecha at combat levels.

Okay, I acknowledge that, but the engines still convert Protocultre into thrust. I don't know why you are even debating that. The RPG states the main power-source is Protoculture, and that it cannot operate without it, so the engines clearly need Protoculture to function in space and atmosphere.

The Logan was the primary fighter of the TASC until the AGACs was introduced, and the RPG makes the ASC out to have had MANY more soldiers than it actually had in canon.

The Century series were the primary fighters. The Logan was designed for close-air support and urban combat, not air superiority. And we are focusing on the RPG.

Goodness, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Tristar-class being substantially smaller than the Ikazuchi-class... or that they were sharing hangar space with 120 additional fighters.

The Tristar was 461m in Length, the Ikazuchi was 704m . Yet the Ikazuchi also carries 161 Betas, 80 Bioroid Interceptors and 12 condors, as a result those 305 Alphas were sharing the hangar space with 250+ additional mecha. So whilst the Ikazuchi was around 45% larger, it still carried 200% more Veritechs, going just by the Alpha Fighters.

*Sigh* Easily reloaded... with the magazines the mecha's stats don't say it carries, which means precisely nothing.

So why mention the capacity to change magazines? Why not just have a capacitor as a power source like in ASC? The only reason to have changeable magazines if because the Alpha carried additional magazines to exchange.

The VF-1 has lasers available in all modes... a minimum of three, and as many as six laser weapons on the airframe depending on variant. (The Alpha tops out at two.) The VF-1R variant common in that period also has an independently operated autocannon on the head available in all modes. WRT missiles, the Marines favor the Super Valkyrie, so it's got 46 SRMs to play with before you start counting what's hung on the wings... that gives the VF-1 a considerable edge.

But again, the UEEF used Alphas as its main Veritech mecha, which meant the Alpha had advantages the VF-1 did not possess: a cheaper cost and greater endurance. Plus all those variants makes repair difficult given all the extra parts needed. Alphas had a standardized load-out, fuel and energy source. For the VF-1 you need parts for booster packs, ammunition for the auto-cannon which is different to the ammunition for the GU-11, different types or armour since the VF-1R is more heavily armoured and the booster pack has additional modules. A logistical nightmare.

OK, so you just have an illogical statement in the books about an easily-reloaded gunpod for a mecha that doesn't carry spares and can't reload it anyway... I was just explaining WHY it doesn't make any logical sense, and why the Alpha's payload doesn't include a spare magazine or two (because the OSM and official RT stats don't say the gunpod can be easily reloaded).

As I said, my original post was an attempt at rationalization the differences in stats in the RPG universe. The GU-11 needs a certified technician and tools to reload, and reloading in the field without such tools has a big skill penalty. The EU-13 just needs to be "switched for a new one easily". No skill penalty, no special tools.

The Alpha was less economical because:

• Protoculture is an extremely scarce commodity that is near-impossible to produce. (e.g. why the UEEF is utterly hosed now that they've lost the matrix)
• Using protoculture requires the craft maintain a separate fuel system for space-use propellant. (not relevant to RPG stats, but factual nonetheless for the RT setting.)
• You can quite literally get hydrogen just about anywhere in the universe... most common element and all that, plus metallic hydrogen occurs naturally in gas giants, and guess what Tirol orbits? Use hydrogen fusion and all of creation is your gas station.

The UEEF had massive reserves of Protoculture from the Zentraedi they fought against. It was not in short supply at all. Plus since they were dealing with the Robotech Masters who used the same fuel supply, they logically assumed they could use the infrastructure in Robotech Masters Empire to resupply. There was no guarantee that the Masters had the ability to refine hydrogen fuel, or that the UEEF could develop the means to create such industry from scratch, as they were a mobile force.

Again you are pushing a separate fuel system for space combat. The RPG neither states one is present, implies one is present or creates the conditions where a separate fuel system is a plausible extrapolation. The engines obviously have the capacity to convert Protoculture into thrust. The Conbat uses a Protoculture reactor, and the SC main book states the Garfish uses a Reflex reactor (Protoculture) to power three sub-capital plasma thrusters. Everything in whole book makes it clear Protoculture can be converted into thrust.

[silvermoon383]

At the risk of getting skewered by my fellow Alpha lovers (and admittedly I'm about 300 miles away from my books so I can't check), but I don't recall the Alpha's gunpod magazine as being easily replaced by the pilot. It could be that the magazine design makes it easy for the ground crew to swap it out during a reload operation.

[ByzantineBasileus]

At the risk of getting skewered by my fellow Alpha lovers (and admittedly I'm about 300 miles away from my books so I can't check), but I don't recall the Alpha's gunpod magazine as being easily replaced by the pilot. It could be that the magazine design makes it easy for the ground crew to swap it out during a reload operation.

If it required ground crew to reload, it would have a similar description to who reloads it as in the Macross Sourcebook. As it is, the Shadow Chronicles RPG book states it is easy to replace, which suggests that the pilot is capable of doing so in Battloid mode. If this were not the case, why include magazines and note they are replaceable? It would be simpler to have it charged by a capacitor as in the ASC sourcebook.

[ShadowLogan]

HG doesn't have mini-missiles in its stats... that's a RPG-ism.

That is correct, the RPG also has its own definition of micro-missiles. A lot of Palladium's game terminology is recycled, since they use the terms/categories for other lines. To avoid conflicting definitions it would make sense that they would try to classify them w/n the system, though their classification appears to be based soley on size to fit the exiting table(s).

If they made things do the damage we see in the series, the EU gunpods would be much more capable given they can get kills just as quickly as the GU-11 against their respective non-plot shielded targets.

It's not enough to catch enormous numbers of pods all in one go, but 31m isn't anything to sneeze that... that'll take four or five of 'em out in one go (more if they're Invid) if they're flying in the kind of close formation we often see in the animation.

1.5m-6.1m per SRM missile depending on the type. If we are looking at cost and using the Rifts line for cost (until something better comes along), then you can get 31m coverage more cost effectively in terms of coverage since you can get like 80 cheap SRMs for the same cost as 1 cheap LRM (I'm using Rifts Source Book 1original, values might change depending on which book, that was just handy).

You would only need x5 of the 6.1m SRM (Frag light), it would be roughly equal to a Reflex Light LRM in terms of damage, but it would have the same coverage (radius) as the slightly better than x2 Multi Warhead LRM. With the 1.5m SRM (HEAP) you would need ~x21, that would be 42d6x10 (or 4d6x100) which clearly is better than the multi-warhead. If we go with the 4.6m variety of SRM (Plasma/HE-Med) you only need ~x7 to get the same radius, damage is less (14d6x10 or 1d6x100), but if we up the volley to x10 (so 20d6x10 or 2d6x100) we get a larger radius and more damage. So anti-swarm via missile would seem to favor the SRM in terms of cost, number carried, and coverage potentcy.

The RPG asserts that both the Valkyrie and Alpha are multi-role aircraft. It specifically refers to the VF-1 as being an air superiority and attack craft (Manga Ed., pg54), and the Alpha as an aerospace superiority strike fighter (Manga Ed., page 97). The Infopedia is mute on the matter beyond alluding to both being multirole fighters, and AotSC inexplicably describes the Alpha as an interceptor...

They can both be multi-role fighters, but they can place different emphasis on specific roles. The VF-1 could put more emphasis on air superiority at the expense of ground attack, but the Alpha could do the opposite. Multi-Role is not a hard definition in assigning capabilities w/n the scope of the multi-role aspect, only that it can do multiple roles.

If we follow that line of thought, then we should assume that UEEF infantry would not carry extra magazines when equipped with the M-25 Wolverine Assault Rifle because the RPG makes no mention of them carrying extra ones. But of course we don't, because we know that going into battle without extra ammunition would be absolutely stupid. The reason they did not describe how many extra magazines are carried is because they did not need to, it is obvious they would bring extra ammo.

The OCCs though state a given number of extra magazine/clips for their personal weapons in their equipment section. So we have some idea of how many they have. There is nothing to indicate how many the Alpha has or can carry or where they are stored. While the infantry doesn't tell us where they are stored, it doesn't take much to work it out. It is not easy to work it out with the mecha, because no Alpha is known to carry a spare magazine in depictions externally (whole gunpod yes), so where are these large magazines being stored and how do you know they are there?

I am discussing things in the context of the RPG-universe. The Alpha Fighter in this respects is superior to the VF-1 Valkyrie.

So am I, but the RPG-universe does take its cues from the show-universe. And even the RPG mentions that the Beta provides the Alpha additional fuel in its entry, pointing to a lack of tankage as I said before. And Seto is right, the RPG glosses over how to manage this, though some hard specs would still be useful in allowing different mecha to easily share fuel/reaction mass when appropriate (like we can do with the PC-cells).

I acknowledge that the GU-11 does more damage, but I am looking at things from the perspective of the mission of the UEEF. A VF-1 Alpha would be used like conventional fighter craft - go on a sortie and then return to base to re-arm. The UEEF needed mecha that could operate for extended periods, without the expectation that they could immediately return. Hence the large number of missiles, fuel capacity and magazines for the EU-13. The lower damage was a trade-off for extended ammunition capacity in the form of magazines.

And from the perspective of the UEEF the GU-11 would appear more attractive to them (hell the EU-20 should be more attractive to them and the ASC given its single blasts are as powerful as the bursts, give it burst capacity...) than the EU-13. Extending the capacity doesn't mean anything if the damage done is worse since it means combat will be drawn out, which likely means higher losses and more overhead maintenance due to battle damage/wear and tear.

In terms of damage the GU-11 only has to hit x1 vs x3 for the EU-13 to do the same damage. That means the EU-13 shooter is taking hits more often from its target than the GU-11 shooter. That means the EU-13 shooter is going to have more repair work potentially than the GU-11 shooter. So any "gains" in terms of endurance may be wiped out by "loss" in power.

You still haven't answered where it establishes how many the magazines the Alpha actually carries. Nor where you could put/store those magazines.

But within the boundaries of the RPG the UEEF did not do this, and I am speculating that the issue was cost.

If the RoD did wipe out VF-1 production plants, then cost wise there would be no benefit to restarting VF-1 production with new plants vs building new plants for a new design(s). That is one reason why ending production on a given machine is expensive to re-open. For all we know the VF-1s in service post Macross are from surviving stock, that have been given life extensions (which is what the -1R is), but that doesn't require the unit to still be in production.

We do know there is a doctrine/tactical shift (mentioned in the Alpha writeup) that helped cement the VFA-6 Alpha over the VF-X-4 (which has breath taking performance), these two factors alone can be used to explain why the VF-1 "lost" to the Alpha. So it was already on the way out, it wasn't cost effective to start new plants up, and there was a tactical shift.

Except that it obviously does, since the Alpha can fly in space. It has engines that can convert protoculture into thrust that can be used to fly in both space and atmosphere.

We do not dispute the Alpha can fly in space. That does not mean the PC is converted into direct thrust (A few years back I looked at this in support of a different project for the 2E RPG). 1 of 3 impossible scenarios would have to work to allow for direct full thrust for the full month (IIRC I went with 14days of heavy use), PC cell has to be really heavy (and know Rand/Scott/Rook can carry multiple canisters of the stuff so this is out) or it expels the product at FTL velocity (which matter can not do, so it is out) or a combination of both (some balance between the two impossible things, it was just easier to give it dedicated space propellant).

It also flies in the face of one of the stated/accepted needs for the Beta Fighter to provide more fuel for the Alpha. It is mentioned the Beta provides the Alpha with more fuel in the RPG, though outside the RPG the need is more clear.

So why mention the capacity to change magazines? Why not just have a capacitor as a power source like in ASC? The only reason to have changeable magazines if because the Alpha carried additional magazines to exchange.

The drawback to the capacitor like the ASC is the speed at which it (canonically) is recharged, so it would be faster to remove the capacitor and slap in a fully charged one (which the ASC ones do not allow), at which point you are basically changing the magazine. The Alpha's magazines are also "rechargeable" per text with no supporting information to determine rates and conditions.

As to why mention the capacity to remove/reload. It can be used to determine how fast a ground crew can switch in a new magazine (much faster/simpler than the auto-loader I suspect), a pilot could "salvage" the clip from a downed mecha using an EU-13 and not have to carry around the extra gunpod (assuming it still works, and some method to transport it is available), as a method of "disarming" the EU-13 in melee combat in a non-destructive manner, etc. A better question is why mention the change capacity AND NOT mention how many spare magazines it carries.

The UEEF had massive reserves of Protoculture from the Zentraedi they fought against. It was not in short supply at all. Plus since they were dealing with the Robotech Masters who used the same fuel supply, they logically assumed they could use the infrastructure in Robotech Masters Empire to resupply. There was no guarantee that the Masters had the ability to refine hydrogen fuel, or that the UEEF could develop the means to create such industry from scratch, as they were a mobile force.

By 2044 the UEEF has a 1 Year Supply after the Battle of Reflex Point (that is stated in the source material plain as day). So whatever massive reserve of PC the UEEF had from the Zentraedi/SDF-1 they worked through it in ~20years. The UEEF would/should also know (or consider the possibility) that the Masters likely are in the same PC straight jacket as the Zentraedi, so might not actually be able to add to the stockpile.

The Masters do not need the ability to refine Hydrogen into SLMH, the UEEF can bring that capacity with them. They actually have to if the UEEF is using SLMH vehicles from the ASC and RDF, unless those mecha have also revamped for PC-use.

[ByzantineBasileus]

The OCCs though state a given number of extra magazine/clips for their personal weapons in their equipment section. So we have some idea of how many they have. There is nothing to indicate how many the Alpha has or can carry or where they are stored. While the infantry doesn't tell us where they are stored, it doesn't take much to work it out. It is not easy to work it out with the mecha, because no Alpha is known to carry a spare magazine in depictions externally (whole gunpod yes), so where are these large magazines being stored and how do you know they are there?

Only for energy weapons, not for projectile weapons. I was just making the point that relying on a literal interpretation is not always helpful. My theory would be these magazines are located in slots on the legs. Otherwise there is not point to the weapon having magazines in the first place.

So am I, but the RPG-universe does take its cues from the show-universe. And even the RPG mentions that the Beta provides the Alpha additional fuel in its entry, pointing to a lack of tankage as I said before. And Seto is right, the RPG glosses over how to manage this, though some hard specs would still be useful in allowing different mecha to easily share fuel/reaction mass when appropriate (like we can do with the PC-cells).

Additional fuel could be meant in the context of an Alpha Fighter with can operate beyond the one month limitation if it is connected to the Beta. If it was low on Protoculture it could connect and get topped up.

In terms of damage the GU-11 only has to hit x1 vs x3 for the EU-13 to do the same damage. That means the EU-13 shooter is taking hits more often from its target than the GU-11 shooter. That means the EU-13 shooter is going to have more repair work potentially than the GU-11 shooter. So any "gains" in terms of endurance may be wiped out by "loss" in power.

You still haven't answered where it establishes how many the magazines the Alpha actually carries. Nor where you could put/store those magazines.

Given the heavier armour of the Alpha Fighter to its main-body, it is expected to get in close and thus take damage. It is not intended to evade missiles over long range or dog-fight against other aircraft. It is a strike fighter: meant to get in close against other ground and air mecha, taking the lead in attacks, taking out swarms with missiles and finishing up with the EU-13. The GU-11 is the main weapon of the
VF-1, whereas the MM-60 system is the main weapon of the Alpha Fighter. The EU-13 is there as a back-up weapon, I think, or to enable it to engage in "infantry" combat as a Battloid.

I would assume that three to four extra magazines could be carried, and are stored in special slots in the main body or the legs.

As to why mention the capacity to remove/reload. It can be used to determine how fast a ground crew can switch in a new magazine (much faster/simpler than the auto-loader I suspect), a pilot could "salvage" the clip from a downed mecha using an EU-13 and not have to carry around the extra gunpod (assuming it still works, and some method to transport it is available), as a method of "disarming" the EU-13 in melee combat in a non-destructive manner, etc. A better question is why mention the change capacity AND NOT mention how many spare magazines it carries.

Honestly? I think it was one of those things that was overlooked.

By 2044 the UEEF has a 1 Year Supply after the Battle of Reflex Point (that is stated in the source material plain as day). So whatever massive reserve of PC the UEEF had from the Zentraedi/SDF-1 they worked through it in ~20years. The UEEF would/should also know (or consider the possibility) that the Masters likely are in the same PC straight jacket as the Zentraedi, so might not actually be able to add to the stockpile. The Masters do not need the ability to refine Hydrogen into SLMH, the UEEF can bring that capacity with them. They actually have to if the UEEF is using SLMH vehicles from the ASC and RDF, unless those mecha have also revamped for PC-use.

I though the limited supplies were a result of the Regis taking all the Protoculture with her: the Reflex Reactors were drained as she departed.

[ShadowLogan]

(A few years back I looked at this in support of a different project for the 2E RPG). 1 of 3 impossible scenarios would have to work to allow for direct full thrust for the full month (IIRC I went with 14days of heavy use), PC cell has to be really heavy (and know Rand/Scott/Rook can carry multiple canisters of the stuff so this is out) or it expels the product at FTL velocity (which matter can not do, so it is out) or a combination of both (some balance between the two impossible things, it was just easier to give it dedicated space propellant).

For anyone interested. If we use the 1E RPG's specs for the Alpha's main engines. We assume that Rand/Rook are carrying 7 4pack canisters of PC and are at their PS carry limit (and ignore the weight of clothes, cases, etc) in "Curtain Call", it would require the Alpha's engines to exhaust matter at ~22x the Speed of light for 2 weeks of constant max thrust, just to reduce it to just under the speed of light requires EACH of those 16 canisters to have an additional mass of ~46kg over the value assumed in exceed the speed of light value. Rand and Rook (per NG SB) have a PS of 13 for a carry capacity of ~59kg (yet are shown carrying 28 not 1.x, and I'm not even counting other materials that would drag on their carry capacity).

Only for energy weapons, not for projectile weapons. I was just making the point that relying on a literal interpretation is not always helpful. My theory would be these magazines are located in slots on the legs. Otherwise there is not point to the weapon having magazines in the first place.

Why would that be any different? There are no slots on the legs though and there are examples of mecha haveing reloads mentioned w/n TSC book. Outside of the RPG there are cutaways that shoot that idea down.

Additional fuel could be meant in the context of an Alpha Fighter with can operate beyond the one month limitation if it is connected to the Beta. If it was low on Protoculture it could connect and get topped up.

Afraid not. The Beta would be operating during this time period to and it uses x2 as many cells as the Alpha. The Fuel in this context then can not be not PC. The Alpha does not get topped off by the Beta, the Beta acts as the Alpha's engines (it is a booster unit).

Given the heavier armour of the Alpha Fighter to its main-body, it is expected to get in close and thus take damage. It is not intended to evade missiles over long range or dog-fight against other aircraft. It is a strike fighter: meant to get in close against other ground and air mecha, taking the lead in attacks, taking out swarms with missiles and finishing up with the EU-13. The GU-11 is the main weapon of the
VF-1, whereas the MM-60 system is the main weapon of the Alpha Fighter. The EU-13 is there as a back-up weapon, I think, or to enable it to engage in "infantry" combat as a Battloid.

I totally disagree here. Avoiding damage is also important, even for get-in-close fighting. Each time the Alpha or VF-1 takes a hit, that means it will need additional repair time to fix. Which also means more parts you have to bring along.

The GU-11 and EU-13 are both mecha's primary guns, but they are secondary weapons to their missile systems.

I would assume that three to four extra magazines could be carried, and are stored in special slots in the main body or the legs.

Why? There is no mention of this in the 2E RPG. And given the OSM leaning of HG, we can point to cutaways that also discount that idea. And HG ultimately approves what PB can publish in this area.

Honestly? I think it was one of those things that was overlooked.

I don't. It was intentional, there are examples of things that where clearly overlooked (I can think of 2 alone in the TRM book), but this does not seem to be one of them. Said capability isn't even mentioned in non-RPG sources that are canon by HG.

[quote=""}
I though the limited supplies were a result of the Regis taking all the Protoculture with her: the Reflex Reactors were drained as she departed.[/quote]
It seems unlikely the Regis is responsible for draining UEEF inventory in that way since the ships and mecha are still functional and such in space. What ever PC she used, was likely under her control.

[Tiree]

I had a conversation with Jason Marker about the energy link of the Gun Pod to the Mecha that were built into the Master's Mecha. And asked if he had thought the same link would be viable for the Alpha's. He stated yes, that if he oversaw another reprint that sort of fix would be discussed. Of course with him fired/leaving, that didn't happen.

What you have is three books not written at the same time, not edited at the same time, and written in a disjointed fashion. Because of this, you have newer writing styles and techniques being added to 'Prequel' books. Therefore your book at the end looks like a bunch of junk in comparison.

I was hoping to have the New Generation and/or Marines be the fix to inconsistencies. Instead we had a different writer, with a different agenda writing a different kind of book than one I want to see. I place a lot of blame on the writer for this, but there is just as much on the editor.

Now - I do make adjustments to the TSC Era Mecha in contrast to Macross and Masters. I also tweak the Masters Mecha a little to coincide with my view of the world (Namely SLMH Fuel Stacks - Do they look like Protoculture Canisters? My world, yes.)

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmm, I have no clue about energy conversion armor but if it interferes with wifi/bluetooth tech it'd probably mess with wire, leaving only cable or fiber and cable wouldn't be fast enough to balance a mecha or provide the reaction times we see in RT.

The Energy Conversion Armor overtechnology in Macross is a layered, laminated OTM "smart" composite material that greatly improves its resistance to impact and thermal effects when it's charged by a high-intensity electromagnetic field. That, plus all the active cancellation radar stealth technology used on Macross VF's would probably play merry hell with a fly-by-wireless setup (unless that FBW setup was using fold wave communications, which would be astronomically expensive).

Yes, it powers the engines... it does not provide reaction mass (fuel/propellant) for maneuvering in space.

Except that it obviously does, since the Alpha can fly in space. It has engines that can convert protoculture into thrust that can be used to fly in both space and atmosphere.

Please show us a statement in the RPG that says the Alpha's engines use protoculture for fuel. I'm looking, and I can't seem to find anything that supports that assertion. Indeed, look to the other examples of protoculture-powered mecha and you'll see those craft use protoculture for power generation, not for fuel. (Zentradi use protoculture to power fusion engines.)

Okay, I acknowledge that, but the engines still convert Protocultre into thrust.

There's nothing in the RPG that says the engines convert protoculture into anything... they use protoculture to generate power, but that's the extent of it.

I don't know why you are even debating that. The RPG states the main power-source is Protoculture, and that it cannot operate without it, so the engines clearly need Protoculture to function in space and atmosphere.

I'm debating it because the proof that you're wrong is right there in your own statement... its power source is protoculture, not its fuel supply. The craft is powered by protoculture, it's not shooting protoculture out the engines to produce thrust. In fact, nothing in the books says that the Alpha's engines use protoculture, just that it's power system is 16 protoculture cells.

And we are focusing on the RPG.

I know, and the vast majority of your arguments here have no foundation in the RPG or any other source.

So why mention the capacity to change magazines? Why not just have a capacitor as a power source like in ASC? The only reason to have changeable magazines if because the Alpha carried additional magazines to exchange.

That's an excellent question... why does a craft that does not carry additional magazines, nor has anywhere to carry any additional magazines, have a statement saying the gun pod can be easily reloaded? It doesn't make any logical sense, because it's the RPG's writers going against the official stats the rest of the entry is based on for no clear reason.

All I can think of that doesn't involve going against the text of the books is that someone on the ground doesn't need the armoror's skill set to replace a magazine.

But again, the UEEF used Alphas as its main Veritech mecha,

For a fairly brief period of time, according to the RPG... unlike in canon, the Alpha did not become the UEEF's main fighter until the mid-2030's. It didn't even enter mass-production until 2031, according to the core book (page 97). You've got a good decade there where the Alpha was NOT the main fighter. The Alpha becoming the next main fighter could be explained by a variety of non-performance factors like the inability to replace more effective craft after losing contact with Earth.

which meant the Alpha had advantages the VF-1 did not possess: a cheaper cost and greater endurance.

Greater power plant endurance, but that doesn't equal greater fuel endurance, greater range, or greater performance... and, as we noted many times before, the cost aspect is a completely baseless claim on your part.

Plus all those variants makes repair difficult given all the extra parts needed.

You'll note the Alpha had at least as many variants as the VF-1 did... but the VF-1's in service after the First Robotech War are noted to have mostly been updated to a single variant (VF-1R). There were no fewer than three Alpha variants in service at various points that had greater hardware differences than the VF-1 variant differences the RPG asserts were mostly cosmetic (Macross Saga, pg55).

The VF/A-6Z and -6X are the deal-breakers there, since they're SIGNIFICANTLY different, hardware-wise.

You keep saying we're talking about the RPG here, but your claims don't line up with it at all.

Alphas had a standardized load-out, fuel and energy source. For the VF-1 you need parts for booster packs, ammunition for the auto-cannon which is different to the ammunition for the GU-11, different types or armour since the VF-1R is more heavily armoured and the booster pack has additional modules. A logistical nightmare.

Let's see... the VF-1 has:

• One, maybe two, variants in common service after 2015... the Alpha ended up with four, two of which have significant hardware differences.
• Booster packs, which are standardized across all VF-1 variants, which are far less logistically demanding than bolting a WHOLE SECOND PLANE to the Alpha to make it less useless.
• An auto-cannon which uses bullets... there's no shortage of usable metals to be obtained from asteroids and so on in space, and we know they were not wanting for resources since they built a new SDF in A YEAR, but the protoculture Alpha's power system and gun pod use is a terrifyingly scarce resource with only one potential point of resupply.
• The VF-1R's booster pack does not have additional modules... where are you getting this wild claim?
• If it's such a logistical nightmare, why did the UEEF marines continue using it even AFTER the Alpha became widely available?

The UEEF had massive reserves of Protoculture from the Zentraedi they fought against.

I can't find anything in the RPG that backs this next series of your claims up. Source?

There was no guarantee that the Masters had the ability to refine hydrogen fuel, or that the UEEF could develop the means to create such industry from scratch, as they were a mobile force.

The SDF-1 had no problems keeping its hundreds of fighters and destroids fueled using hydrogen... and, as noted, metallic hydrogen is a naturally occurring substance found in many gas giants.

Again you are pushing a separate fuel system for space combat. The RPG neither states one is present, implies one is present or creates the conditions where a separate fuel system is a plausible extrapolation.

The RPG specifically mentions the Alpha needs the Beta to expand its fuel supply... and at no point does the RPG assert the Alpha's engines were consuming protoculture the way you claim. You glossed over the very contradiction I've been pointing out... they're using protoculture to POWER engines, not fuel them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Only for energy weapons, not for projectile weapons.

The reason why is obvious at a glance if you actually pay attention to the content of the books... there is no Valkyrie Pilot OCC or really any new OCCs for line soldiers in the Macross Saga source book, and the standard issue weapons thereafter are principally energy weapons for military OCCs. A few of the Civilian/Security OCCs in the Masters Saga book do mention carrying reloads for conventional weapons in the Masters Saga book.

My theory would be these magazines are located in slots on the legs. Otherwise there is not point to the weapon having magazines in the first place.

Your theory has no factual foundation in the RPG, the canon Robotech stats, or the OSM... so, yeah, there kind of isn't a point to the magazines. Welcome to Robotech... come for the space war, stay for the contradictions!

Additional fuel could be meant in the context of an Alpha Fighter with can operate beyond the one month limitation if it is connected to the Beta. If it was low on Protoculture it could connect and get topped up.

Except the Beta and Alpha have separate power systems and no mention is made of the Beta being able to power the Alpha is or vice versa.

Given the heavier armour of the Alpha Fighter to its main-body,

Not heavier vs. the SLEP VF-1 variant...

I though the limited supplies were a result of the Regis taking all the Protoculture with her: the Reflex Reactors were drained as she departed.

That's not a line of reasoning supported by the RPG or canon Robotech... the Regess is said to have taken all the protoculture from the planet Earth, not from the UEEF forces, and especially not the ones in space. (core book, manga ed., page 62)

[eliakon]

<Redacted>

[eliakon]

There was no guarantee that the Masters had the ability to refine hydrogen fuel, or that the UEEF could develop the means to create such industry from scratch, as they were a mobile force.

The SDF-1 had no problems keeping its hundreds of fighters and destroids fueled using hydrogen... and, as noted, metallic hydrogen is a naturally occurring substance found in many gas giants.

Um yeah, in the cores....that is like saying that Magma is found in terran worlds.....its not where anyone can actually get to it.
There is loose hydrogen in the upper atmosphere where it can be skimmed. It would then need a refinery to remove all the other gasses, then to convert it to SLMH (which is not the same as MH btw)....so yeah back to that infrastructure thing....
And the SDF-1 had reserves already on the ship, there is no support for the claim that it had either unlimited fuel of that it was picking up and making more.....

Again you are pushing a separate fuel system for space combat. The RPG neither states one is present, implies one is present or creates the conditions where a separate fuel system is a plausible extrapolation.

The RPG specifically mentions the Alpha needs the Beta to expand its fuel supply... and at no point does the RPG assert the Alpha's engines were consuming protoculture the way you claim. You glossed over the very contradiction I've been pointing out... they're using protoculture to POWER engines, not fuel them.

Okay so where is the explicit claim that there IS a separately fuel space drive. Because your a huge fan of 'if it doesn't explicitly say its there its not'....or does that only go for claims others make like magazines for Alphas?

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay so where is the canon in game statement that the Valkyrie has a separate space fuel.

*sigh* Going back to the point I'd made, the VF-1 and other fusion-powered aircraft DON'T NEED a separate fuel source for space as their fusion engines are producing (helium) plasma as a byproduct of the fusion reaction. In that case, power generation provides a propellant.

Where is the statement that ANY of the ships have a separate space fuel?

Explain, then, where the plasma is coming from that's being used to provide thrust in the ships that use reflex furnaces?

The Macross Saga sourcebook's stats for the Oberth-class and ARMD-class indicate that their plasma engines are running off the fusion reactors. Where is the plasma coming from on the SDF-1, Tristar, etc., where the engines are merely "powered by" rather than "fired by" the ship's power plant? It doesn't say it's coming from the reflex furnace... so where's it coming from?

Look at the Zentradi mecha and ships, and you'll see the answer... reflex power systems supplying power for a fusion-based engine to provide propulsive force.

Especially considering that none of the craft perform like one would expect them to in space....I really don't have a hard time believeing that they use PC for their space flight and that its 'not normal'

The canon stats would definitely argue against it... one of the Alpha's noted deficiencies is that its small size left it with a somewhat limited fuel tank capacity for space flight, and that that shortcoming was one of several the Beta was attempting to address.

Also, the Macross Saga book's stats for the Zentradi would also argue strongly against it... since they explicitly call out that they're using protoculture to power fusion engines, not using some engine that's consuming protoculture directly.