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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:48 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Well men if we're going to die, then let us die with honor.
the factory Satellite was geared to mass produce battle pods for the masters slave race. You know the one which was captured and used for the UEEF to build their fleet. So I do not buy that they would run out of battle pods before their human mecha.

My reason for this line of thinking is simply that, there is no way they could have redesigned this entire factory and in such a short time especially when resources are so finite.

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If all of your wishes are granted then many of your dreams will be destroyed.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:27 am
  

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Champion

Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:17 pm
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Location: Monument City, UEF HQ
Ah, where to begin?

Let's see....

- Major Carpenter is now the commander of a prototype warship...even though his aide says its been their home for 15 years. Oh, and from p. 161 of The Masters Saga Sourcebook: "The UEEF even took a few Tristars on their mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility." Edit - From p.125 The Expeditionary Force Marines Sourcebook: "The GMU is so large that it can only be carried by the SDF-03 or the Tokugawa Carriers(sic)...."
- Carpenter's crew state that the City-ships in orbit around the Earth of an unidentified alien origin. Cabell never told the REF anything about The Masters City-ships?
- Colonel Wolfe takes part in the liberation of planets from the Invid with The Wolfe Pack. He then arrives on Earth AFTER the 2nd Robotech War. Ironic since Scott plainly states that Wolfe was sent back by Admiral Hunter with the first wave to fight The Robotech Masters. Wolfe also further establishes this when he tells Scott that "this is not The Wolfe Pack, this is Earth and our enemy, the Invid, are savages". Odd that he somehow fights the Invid in deep space and on Earth...but doesn't associate fighting the Invid with The Wolfe Pack.
- The SDF-03 took a 3 year fold, even though others have pointed to the fact the fluff text of other entries (Bioroid Interceptor) say the exact opposite.
- Edwards flees Tirol for Optera and dies BEFORE the 2nd Robotech War? Odd, he seems rather alive according to Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles which is set 2043 - 2044.
- Dana commandeer's Colonel Wolfe's ship and the spacefold system is fixed by Louie Nichols? Weird, cause Robotech: Love, Live, Alive shows nothing whatsoever of the sort.
- The FoL is released from the SDF-01 and SDF-02? Funny that The Ruins of the SDF-01/SX.83 never once is stated to be the resting place of the SDF-02. Bowie Grant even says in Triumvirate that its the spot of the Earth's first battlefortress.
- The Regess destroys The Factory Satellite? You mean Space Station Liberty? Funny, it seems to still be in working order before moronic Captain Vince Grant blows it up in late 2044/early 2045 during The Shadow Chronicles.
- Breetai and The Regent kill each other in mortal combat in 2028? No, they are incinerated by Edwards firing the synchro-cannon from the UES Icarus in 2044.
- So....the REF basically sits on its ass for 15 years? They do nothing to liberate the Earth until 2038 at the earliest...even though the Regent has been dead for a decade? That makes no sense.

Seriously...this is just skimming the timeline and this many problems crop up? This is not bad research. Its literally no research. There is so much wrong with this book, just at first glance, that it needs to be completely revised and rewritten.


Last edited by Rabid Southern Cross Fan on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:35 am
  

Adventurer

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:58 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Lancaster County, land of the amish
Comment: "... and that is why you should never put a spork in a toaster."
-Over heard conversation in highschool
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Ah, where to begin?

Let's see....

- Major Carpenter is now the commander of a prototype warship...even though his aide says its been their home for 15 years. Oh, and from p. 161 of The Masters Saga Sourcebook: "The UEEF even took a few Tristars on their mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility." Also, Carpenter's crew state that the City-ships in orbit around the Earth of an unidentified alien origin. Cabell never told the REF anything about The Masters City-ships?
- Colonel Wolfe takes part in the liberation of planets from the Invid with The Wolfe Pack. He then arrives on Earth AFTER the 2nd Robotech War. Ironic since Scott plainly states that Wolfe was sent back by Admiral Hunter with the first wave to fight The Robotech Masters. Wolfe also further establishes this when he tells Scott that "this is not The Wolfe Pack, this is Earth and our enemy, the Invid, are savages". Odd that he somehow fights the Invid in deep space and on Earth...but doesn't associate fighting the Invid with The Wolfe Pack.
- The SDF-03 took a 3 year fold, even though others have pointed to the fact the fluff text of other entries (Bioroid Interceptor) say the exact opposite.
- Edwards flees Tirol for Optera and dies BEFORE the 2nd Robotech War? Odd, he seems rather alive according to Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles which is set 2043 - 2044.
- Dana commandeer's Colonel Wolfe's ship and the spacefold system is fixed by Louie Nichols? Weird, cause Robotech: Love, Live, Alive shows nothing whatsoever of the sort.
- The FoL is released from the SDF-01 and SDF-02? Funny that The Ruins of the SDF-01/SX.83 never once is stated to be the resting place of the SDF-02. Bowie Grant even says in Triumvirate that its the spot of the Earth's first battlefortress.
- The Regess destroys The Factory Satellite? You mean Space Station Liberty? Funny, it seems to still be in working order before moronic Captain Vince Grant blows it up in late 2044/early 2045 during The Shadow Chronicles.
- Breetai and The Regent kill each other in mortal combat in 2028? No, they are incinerated by Edwards firing the synchro-cannon from the UES Icarus in 2044.
- So....the REF basically sits on its ass for 15 years? They do nothing to liberate the Earth until 2038 at the earliest...even though the Regent has been dead for a decade? That makes no sense.

Seriously...this is just skimming the timeline and this many problems crop up? This is not bad research. Its literally no research. There is so much wrong with this book, just at first glance, that it needs to be completely revised and rewritten.


(sigh) Looks like I got my work cut out for my little "pet" project. :-(


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:09 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 0
Hi long time lurker, first time poster
sorry if I interrupting the flow but I thought it kind of seemed to fit here

So what ships were taken along on the pioneer mission to begin with? The kind of convoluted time line has got me a little baffled... Was the Garfish in ikuzaki built later by the Karbarrans?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:56 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 2681
Location: Dino Swamp (well...should be "underseas")
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Ah, where to begin?

Let's see....

- Major Carpenter is now the commander of a prototype warship...even though his aide says its been their home for 15 years. Oh, and from p. 161 of The Masters Saga Sourcebook: "The UEEF even took a few Tristars on their mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility." Edit - From p.125 The Expeditionary Force Marines Sourcebook: "The GMU is so large that it can only be carried by the SDF-03 or the Tokugawa Carriers(sic)...."
- Carpenter's crew state that the City-ships in orbit around the Earth of an unidentified alien origin. Cabell never told the REF anything about The Masters City-ships?
- Colonel Wolfe takes part in the liberation of planets from the Invid with The Wolfe Pack. He then arrives on Earth AFTER the 2nd Robotech War. Ironic since Scott plainly states that Wolfe was sent back by Admiral Hunter with the first wave to fight The Robotech Masters. Wolfe also further establishes this when he tells Scott that "this is not The Wolfe Pack, this is Earth and our enemy, the Invid, are savages". Odd that he somehow fights the Invid in deep space and on Earth...but doesn't associate fighting the Invid with The Wolfe Pack.
- The SDF-03 took a 3 year fold, even though others have pointed to the fact the fluff text of other entries (Bioroid Interceptor) say the exact opposite.
- Edwards flees Tirol for Optera and dies BEFORE the 2nd Robotech War? Odd, he seems rather alive according to Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles which is set 2043 - 2044.
- Dana commandeer's Colonel Wolfe's ship and the spacefold system is fixed by Louie Nichols? Weird, cause Robotech: Love, Live, Alive shows nothing whatsoever of the sort.
- The FoL is released from the SDF-01 and SDF-02? Funny that The Ruins of the SDF-01/SX.83 never once is stated to be the resting place of the SDF-02. Bowie Grant even says in Triumvirate that its the spot of the Earth's first battlefortress.
- The Regess destroys The Factory Satellite? You mean Space Station Liberty? Funny, it seems to still be in working order before moronic Captain Vince Grant blows it up in late 2044/early 2045 during The Shadow Chronicles.
- Breetai and The Regent kill each other in mortal combat in 2028? No, they are incinerated by Edwards firing the synchro-cannon from the UES Icarus in 2044.
- So....the REF basically sits on its ass for 15 years? They do nothing to liberate the Earth until 2038 at the earliest...even though the Regent has been dead for a decade? That makes no sense.

Seriously...this is just skimming the timeline and this many problems crop up? This is not bad research. Its literally no research. There is so much wrong with this book, just at first glance, that it needs to be completely revised and rewritten.


Yep, use it for source material only to help spice up some variety into your game. This book should be decanonized faster than it was written...so basically we have like 6 years to decanonize it.

_________________
I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:33 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 1608
Location: In the Land of La La
Comment: Well men if we're going to die, then let us die with honor.
Kagashi wrote:
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Ah, where to begin?

Let's see....

- Major Carpenter is now the commander of a prototype warship...even though his aide says its been their home for 15 years. Oh, and from p. 161 of The Masters Saga Sourcebook: "The UEEF even took a few Tristars on their mission, along with their Tokugawa battleships, a testament to the ship's power and versatility." Edit - From p.125 The Expeditionary Force Marines Sourcebook: "The GMU is so large that it can only be carried by the SDF-03 or the Tokugawa Carriers(sic)...."
- Carpenter's crew state that the City-ships in orbit around the Earth of an unidentified alien origin. Cabell never told the REF anything about The Masters City-ships?
- Colonel Wolfe takes part in the liberation of planets from the Invid with The Wolfe Pack. He then arrives on Earth AFTER the 2nd Robotech War. Ironic since Scott plainly states that Wolfe was sent back by Admiral Hunter with the first wave to fight The Robotech Masters. Wolfe also further establishes this when he tells Scott that "this is not The Wolfe Pack, this is Earth and our enemy, the Invid, are savages". Odd that he somehow fights the Invid in deep space and on Earth...but doesn't associate fighting the Invid with The Wolfe Pack.
- The SDF-03 took a 3 year fold, even though others have pointed to the fact the fluff text of other entries (Bioroid Interceptor) say the exact opposite.
- Edwards flees Tirol for Optera and dies BEFORE the 2nd Robotech War? Odd, he seems rather alive according to Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles which is set 2043 - 2044.
- Dana commandeer's Colonel Wolfe's ship and the spacefold system is fixed by Louie Nichols? Weird, cause Robotech: Love, Live, Alive shows nothing whatsoever of the sort.
- The FoL is released from the SDF-01 and SDF-02? Funny that The Ruins of the SDF-01/SX.83 never once is stated to be the resting place of the SDF-02. Bowie Grant even says in Triumvirate that its the spot of the Earth's first battlefortress.
- The Regess destroys The Factory Satellite? You mean Space Station Liberty? Funny, it seems to still be in working order before moronic Captain Vince Grant blows it up in late 2044/early 2045 during The Shadow Chronicles.
- Breetai and The Regent kill each other in mortal combat in 2028? No, they are incinerated by Edwards firing the synchro-cannon from the UES Icarus in 2044.
- So....the REF basically sits on its ass for 15 years? They do nothing to liberate the Earth until 2038 at the earliest...even though the Regent has been dead for a decade? That makes no sense.

Seriously...this is just skimming the timeline and this many problems crop up? This is not bad research. Its literally no research. There is so much wrong with this book, just at first glance, that it needs to be completely revised and rewritten.


Yep, use it for source material only to help spice up some variety into your game. This book should be decanonized faster than it was written...so basically we have like 6 years to decanonize it.


I think everyone who plays Robotech does this.

_________________
Well men if we are destine to die, let us die with honor

If all of your wishes are granted then many of your dreams will be destroyed.

The final form of a person character lies in their own hands


Image


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:28 pm
  

Megaversal® Ambassador

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Comment: Slip the surly bonds of Earth and touch the face of perfection.

Battle Cry, pilots! Defend the SDF-1!
Title:

I noticed in the final release they dropped the "Sourcebook One" from what it was announced as back in 2013. So does this mean that we're not getting Sourcebook Two?

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:31 am
  

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Champion

Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:17 pm
Posts: 2571
Location: Monument City, UEF HQ
Oh yea..here's some more....

- CVR-3 and Gallant H-90 not available until 2035? Wow, guess the Old Coots in Ghost Town must have stolen those CVR-3 suits (someone explain how they got munchkin-sized armor for "Shorty"). And Lancer must be a complete and total moron to have identified the Gallant H-90's in their arsenal as "dating clear back to the War against The Robotech Masters".
- Lang doesn't start developing the Cyclones (according to the new timeline) until after the war against the Invid Regent is over in 2029. So...Marines have no Cyclones until after the war with the Invid in deep space is over? Can someone explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever? Funny that Dana Sterling has CVR-3F Body Armor on in Robotech: Love, Live, Alive....which is set in 2031 and was mass produced enough to rearm The Army of the Southern Cross.....


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:13 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:37 pm
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Location: Tampa FL
Comment: Poster's making baseless accusations of illegal actions go on the Foe list...
There is almost nothing good in this book.
it is the worst editing job I have yet to see palladium produce, the timeline and fluff texts are so far from canon and contradictory that I want to think the Author copied the novels timeline and changed maybe 5-10 word out of thousands...
The Author didn't research anything when he wrote this. but this is par for the course with the author, if he had read the prelude comics, or possible watched even one episode of Robotech & Shadow chornicles he would have known to correct 80% of the mistakes he made....
but Maybe i'm upset that Palladium Overcharged my credit card for the book and refused to fix their error...


EDIT: Purchasing issues need to be resolved in direct contact with Palladium Books rather than through their forums. I recommend using the contact information here, in particular the order line - J

EDIT: Already contacted through the help deask and they refused to fix the problem

_________________
Give another Gamer a hand up with his education.
"By no means am I an expert on Southern Cross (I cordially detest the series)"-Seto
"Truth is determined by the evidence, not some nonexistent seniority system."-Seto
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Last edited by Colonel Wolfe on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:19 am
  

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Champion

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Comment: Well men if we're going to die, then let us die with honor.
use it purely for a source for material and disregard everything else which does not work.

_________________
Well men if we are destine to die, let us die with honor

If all of your wishes are granted then many of your dreams will be destroyed.

The final form of a person character lies in their own hands


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:27 am
  

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Supreme Being

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If the continuity issues are as major as is alleged, that is disappointing. It probably won't stop me from picking up the book as I tend to run outside of the core continuity and fudge a few things here and there.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:50 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:04 am
Posts: 304
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
use it purely for a source for material and disregard everything else which does not work.


I dunno, that's sort of like, "Use the car for transport and disregard the fact the doors have fallen off."

And honestly? Stuff like this is what you have editors and rough drafts for.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:24 am
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:50 pm
Posts: 562
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Oh yea..here's some more....

- CVR-3 and Gallant H-90 not available until 2035? Wow, guess the Old Coots in Ghost Town must have stolen those CVR-3 suits (someone explain how they got munchkin-sized armor for "Shorty"). And Lancer must be a complete and total moron to have identified the Gallant H-90's in their arsenal as "dating clear back to the War against The Robotech Masters".
- Lang doesn't start developing the Cyclones (according to the new timeline) until after the war against the Invid Regent is over in 2029. So...Marines have no Cyclones until after the war with the Invid in deep space is over? Can someone explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever? Funny that Dana Sterling has CVR-3F Body Armor on in Robotech: Love, Live, Alive....which is set in 2031 and was mass produced enough to rearm The Army of the Southern Cross.....



It has been years since I read them but didn't the modern cyclone (not the new earlier 10/20 series) make an appearance on the planet along with the Silverback in the Prelude comics right after the Regent dies? It's a fully functional modern mecha present at the final battle with the regent. Did the author just not bother to read practically the ONLY source of modern canon on the fleet that dealth with the time before the Shadow Chronicles?

_________________
Congratulations, Palladium Books. You just threw away a customer of 28 years because of how you handled Robotech Tactics.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:53 am
  

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Monk

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Why a marine book instead of a Sentinels or UEEF book?

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Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:57 am
  

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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:50 pm
Posts: 562
Jefffar wrote:
If the continuity issues are as major as is alleged, that is disappointing. It probably won't stop me from picking up the book as I tend to run outside of the core continuity and fudge a few things here and there.


It will for me (stop me from picking it up). If I see it in a bargain bin or used at a big discount (40-50%) then I'll pick it up just out of curiosity but the seemingly frequent lack of adherence to the small amount of canon on the part of Palladium and Harmony Gold is the final straw for me. I was already iffy due to the constant and ongoing frustration with Tactics (lack of meaningful) communication as well as my dissatisfaction with the RPG rules but I was considering getting it just for completeness (I still have my complete original RPG edition book collection despite selling off more than half my rifts collection years ago). While the art would be just fine for NG or NGR Rifts, I'm not a fan of turning everything seemingly into an Alpha frankenmech visually and now the text/fluff isn't consistent with the small amount of material that should have been researched prior to writing. It's not like there wasn't time enough to do it in the 5+ years this book was advertised or more recently the 2+ years that it has been advertised in its current author/version.

For those more into the canon than me, how many different sources are there to research in the "modern" developed canon (since shadow chronicles)? So no novels, old edition rpg books, old comics, etc. There is the TV show obviously, the Shadow Chronicles movie, the Shadow Chronicles art book, Live Love Alive, the prelude comics, and the current RPG books are the ones that come to mind for me.

_________________
Congratulations, Palladium Books. You just threw away a customer of 28 years because of how you handled Robotech Tactics.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:14 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
bieimic wrote:
For those more into the canon than me, how many different sources are there to research in the "modern" developed canon (since shadow chronicles)? So no novels, old edition rpg books, old comics, etc. There is the TV show obviously, the Shadow Chronicles movie, the Shadow Chronicles art book, Live Love Alive, the prelude comics, and the current RPG books are the ones that come to mind for me.

85 Ep., TSC OVA, LLA OVA for animation.

In comics: you have the Prelude Comics, you have Invasion/MB1 comic, Love & War Comic (and the side story for Little White Dragon IINM), and "From the Stars" comic. All of which where short run comic series (planned).

Art of the Shadow Chronicles is canon. You could probably include the Robotech.com Infopedia before the site went belly up (can still reference a good portion via Internet Wayback machine) and reduced itself to being just a store.

Quote:
It has been years since I read them but didn't the modern cyclone (not the new earlier 10/20 series) make an appearance on the planet along with the Silverback in the Prelude comics right after the Regent dies? It's a fully functional modern mecha present at the final battle with the regent. Did the author just not bother to read practically the ONLY source of modern canon on the fleet that dealth with the time before the Shadow Chronicles?

The VR-052 (Scott/Rand type) was introduced as "new" in Ep61, the VR-041 was in service when Lancer arrived on the planet (not to mention Nader Jr when Lunk was still active in the military during the Invid Invasion), there is no indication how old the VR-038 is based on the show. Prelude is set after Ep61 but before Ep83 for the most part.

And yes the Silverback and the VR-052 Cyclone did appear in Prelude, actually the VR-052 is in the first volume. The VR-052 appears in several volume/chapters.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:14 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:37 pm
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Location: Tampa FL
Comment: Poster's making baseless accusations of illegal actions go on the Foe list...
Jefffar wrote:
If the continuity issues are as major as is alleged, that is disappointing. It probably won't stop me from picking up the book as I tend to run outside of the core continuity and fudge a few things here and there.
its not allegations, its fact. Have the book on the desk in front of me, would be glad to discuss the problems more in depth via PM

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:50 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:13 pm
Posts: 4808
Location: Vernon, ON. Canada
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Why a marine book instead of a Sentinels or UEEF book?


Only speculation, but maybe HG has plans for Sentinels?


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:47 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:09 am
Posts: 4591
I actually like the new Spartan and Valiant destroids...and the VR-11 Rifleman cyclone. Hopefully, it doesn't take 5-10 years for Book 2 to come out...

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:00 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
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Location: Snoqualmie, WA
SRoss wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Why a marine book instead of a Sentinels or UEEF book?


Only speculation, but maybe HG has plans for Sentinels?


That'd be cool, but they already did Sentinels in the marine book. It is just weird for the Sentinel races to be released in a book prior to sentinels.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:05 pm
  

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Knight

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Okay - if you toss out the fluff, is the mechanics and art any good?


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:31 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:09 am
Posts: 4591
Tiree wrote:
Okay - if you toss out the fluff, is the mechanics and art any good?


I was pleased with it.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:26 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:50 pm
Posts: 562
Tiree wrote:
Okay - if you toss out the fluff, is the mechanics and art any good?


I can't speak to the mechanics but the art would be good for rifts but IMO not so much for Robotech from the various preview pics folks have posted on the internet. Everything looks like an alpha frankenmech from zentraedi pods to destroids. If you had shown me the various destroids without any labels and out of context, I'd have thought they were from an NGR/NG followup rifts book. I haven't seen the cyclones though so I don't know how much those deviated from the IMAI files. I don't know if it was a directive from HG for legal reasons or artist's preference but any similarity to the originals is largely gone. The old zentraedi sentinel pods looked like their predecessors but updated; the new ones look like you crossed a battletech mech from the clix game with an alpha. Again, I'd have no issue with them in Rifts but they just don't feel robotechy to me personally. YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:59 pm
  

Hero

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Just my $0.02 worth of input in regards to the art. I like the art itself...it is the design I have issue with.

The Cyclones are fine. But the Destroids/Battloids....well there is an old saying..."Be careful what you wish for....you just might get it."

Looks like the entire design philosophy was to "kitbash" the existing Alpha and Cyclone designs and meld parts together to make something "new." And all these Alpha parts on the new mecha don't even have missiles.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:38 pm
  

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Chris0013 wrote:
Looks like the entire design philosophy was to "kitbash" the existing Alpha and Cyclone designs and meld parts together to make something "new." And all these Alpha parts on the new mecha don't even have missiles.


Its not just Alpha parts, but also Beta (which isn't in production yet), Ajax (also supposedly not in production), Spartas and Condor frames/parts stuck to everything. The designs work fine as Improvised Mecha Units on Invid Occupied Earth. They make no sense whatsoever being mecha that rolled off the lines of any Robotech Factory Satellite. There is also the fact that this feels like HG crapping on the legacy of Studio Ammonite by replacing a large chunk of the mecha they designed SPECIFICALLY for Harmony Gold to use in The Sentinels....

The best of the bunch has to be the "Space Cyclones". However, they make no sense being mecha produced before the VR-030/040/050 series. CVR-2 also doesn't make sense, especially when you consider that the Colonel Wolfe armor from Eulogy is not in this book. And that is the real rub: a great many things that SHOULD be in this book including, but not limited to: SDF-03 Pioneer, Tokugawa-class Battleships, Medium Transports (Mind Games), Liberte Fighter, Wolfe's Fighter (may be a Veritech), Wolfe's SMG, VTOL Fighter, Prototype Cyclone, numerous vehicles used by the REF that were in The Sentinels RPG as well as various alien vehicles (Perytonian Hovercycle comes to mind).


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:14 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 912
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Chris0013 wrote:
Looks like the entire design philosophy was to "kitbash" the existing Alpha and Cyclone designs and meld parts together to make something "new." And all these Alpha parts on the new mecha don't even have missiles.


Its not just Alpha parts, but also Beta (which isn't in production yet), Ajax (also supposedly not in production), Spartas and Condor frames/parts stuck to everything. The designs work fine as Improvised Mecha Units on Invid Occupied Earth. They make no sense whatsoever being mecha that rolled off the lines of any Robotech Factory Satellite. There is also the fact that this feels like HG crapping on the legacy of Studio Ammonite by replacing a large chunk of the mecha they designed SPECIFICALLY for Harmony Gold to use in The Sentinels....

The best of the bunch has to be the "Space Cyclones". However, they make no sense being mecha produced before the VR-030/040/050 series. CVR-2 also doesn't make sense, especially when you consider that the Colonel Wolfe armor from Eulogy is not in this book. And that is the real rub: a great many things that SHOULD be in this book including, but not limited to: SDF-03 Pioneer, Tokugawa-class Battleships, Medium Transports (Mind Games), Liberte Fighter, Wolfe's Fighter (may be a Veritech), Wolfe's SMG, VTOL Fighter, Prototype Cyclone, numerous vehicles used by the REF that were in The Sentinels RPG as well as various alien vehicles (Perytonian Hovercycle comes to mind).


Brother....it is all of it....the Golem alone has Alpha, Cyclone, Beta, and Condor parts all mashed up together. The only thing I recognize from the IMAI files is the jets on the back.

I could see if they corrected* the Condor's size to roughly that of the Alpha and used that as a basis for the lower body and shoulder area of the new destroid line but changed out arms and center of the torso based on the different models.

Also...I love the look of the Battlepods, especially the Officer's Pod, but again...."LOOK, ALPHA ARMS!!!!" And it is not so much the arms themselves in those cases...it is the triangular shoulders that serve no purpose since there are no missiles in them.

As far as the Cyclones I love what they did....except that the CVR armors are not usable across all generations of Cyclones and vice versa. They may have used older, heavier materials for the original armors...but that does not mean the connections have to be of a different design. I would say use an in game rule that is is that way.

*I know there are a lot of feelings on what the Condor should have been...I am basing this term on the line art for it that shows it to be roughly the size of the Alpha in battloid mode.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:56 pm
  

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mech798 wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
use it purely for a source for material and disregard everything else which does not work.


I dunno, that's sort of like, "Use the car for transport and disregard the fact the doors have fallen off."

And honestly? Stuff like this is what you have editors and rough drafts for.


Why. I have found half the players do just this.

If you are a Novel Fan then this book is for you. if not then this book has source materials. While I agree I think the destroids look like frank mecha, I just plan on adding missiles where they should be since its clear they are using design which have missile. just edit the Cyclones to be universal. Why would they not be, is the true question. when limited resources and manufacturing facilities are available. Why would you not keep the universal system functioning so you could keep using the older mecha when needed.

the space cyclones are a good but why not develop a full blown hover-cyclone? i am not a fan of the spider Cyclone since it can fly and they did not develop this trait in later models.

I do not mind the OCCs, though Jedi is right. They could have just made one Marine OCC and actually turned the many OCCs into MOS. The Sentinels races done better. And I am looking forward to seeing them fully played in my games. though the Preytons Energy wizard spell accumulation is not covered from what i have found. So i am assuming it was an over sight, since they covered the non wizards getting some innate abilities. And the addition of a non clone Tirolian is nice as well.

and there should have been at least the SDF-3 and the other pioneer ships and the transport vessel for the GMU.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:01 pm
  

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Its what the fans are doing like Robotech Visions which is where we see what Robotech COULD have become. Instead, we get sired with the likes of the REF Marines Sourcebook which not only flushes the memory of The Sentinels down the toilet, but is so poorly edited and thought out that it comes off as little more than poorly written fan fiction.

The decisions for the rules as written also make no sense. Compare the new Tomahawk's 120mm Paticle Beam Cannon to that of the VHT-1 Spartas. Not only does the PBC have a range more than 10x the Spartas (which is supposed to be technology that is newer by almost a decade than the Tomahawk's), its fires twice as much in a round for about 1/2 the max damage. I'm supposed to believe that makes sense in any way, shape or form? Both the REF and Army of the Southern Cross have access to Robotech Factory Satellites and somehow there are severe disparities? Why is this so hard to grok? Seriously.....


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:26 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Lt Gargoyle wrote:
mech798 wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
use it purely for a source for material and disregard everything else which does not work.


I dunno, that's sort of like, "Use the car for transport and disregard the fact the doors have fallen off."

And honestly? Stuff like this is what you have editors and rough drafts for.


Why. I have found half the players do just this.


For myself? The problem is that is not what I paid for.* I paid for a product that is minimally acceptable and in the case of a book for robotech that would mean "sticks with the canon as established".

Sure, I can do what half the players can do, hell I make my money from writing, so it's not a big deal.

But that's not what I'm supposed to have to do for a product. it's supposed to be compliant with canon out of the box, with no changes needed.

*presuming I bought this which is now looking pretty unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:01 am
  

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Champion

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mech798 wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
mech798 wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
use it purely for a source for material and disregard everything else which does not work.


I dunno, that's sort of like, "Use the car for transport and disregard the fact the doors have fallen off."

And honestly? Stuff like this is what you have editors and rough drafts for.


Why. I have found half the players do just this.


For myself? The problem is that is not what I paid for.* I paid for a product that is minimally acceptable and in the case of a book for robotech that would mean "sticks with the canon as established".

Sure, I can do what half the players can do, hell I make my money from writing, so it's not a big deal.

But that's not what I'm supposed to have to do for a product. it's supposed to be compliant with canon out of the box, with no changes needed.

*presuming I bought this which is now looking pretty unlikely.



I fully understand your frustration as well. I bought mine purely because i wanted the game stats for the Sentinel races.
HG said they would not give approval for this kind of work. But yet they did. Is that an excuse to write stuff the fans are not happy with. And I love the forum, because you guys pick this stuff apart so i do not really have to. Which is awesome. After all I have not gotten to the point where i compared the mecha ranges like RSCF and others have.

But i have already established my campaigns history and story. so I got what i wanted. And i am ok with it. the truth of the matter is, it all seems like first edition with all the errors and inconsistencies reappearing. though some of the new art is way better. I like the look of the new sentinels way better.

As for wrecking my childhood memories of Robotech, HG beat him to that by cutting the Sentinels altogether, yet still sells the videos. I loved the novels, minus end of the circle. that one was over the top.
Seto has said multiple times its HGs property and they can do as they want with it, same with PB if they can get the permission to do it. PB has to send the manuscript in. And i imagine even after the raw version was finally completed into what we got, they still had to give their approval. and they did say they would not let this happen. and they have. at best we can buy the products and take what we want from it. or we can stop buying it. and watch it disappear into history. and keep our fond memories of it as they were. the problem in robotech i can truly see is there is not gonna be any real effort to make it move forward. it is where it is and they have effectively dropped the ball once more. I have not gotten into tactics for this reason as well. the writing of the game could bother me if i thought the future looked good for it. LLA movie was basicly recycled material which we already had and did not need retelling. and it did not move the story forward in any way. except to say that human/Invid Hybrids are possible. so most the alien races in robotech can make babies together.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:56 am
  

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Remember, the ball was dropped not only by the author, but by the editor(s) as well. Furthermore, with all Robotech books, it has to be passed by Tommy Yune as well. Nobody caught any of these mistakes before it went to print, mistakes which are so obvious to the fans. Perhaps they should just hire fans in the future...

I think that is my main frustration, that this book had many different levels of oversight, yet such glaring issues came from the final product. We even got a glimpse of what was on the table with the RAW product and we provided our inputs, most of which were ignored. Then compound this with the fact nobody really wanted a "Marines" book in the first place and wanted source material that is canon that has not been covered yet, like the SDF-3 (you know...the central source material for the entire plot), Wolf Fighter or the Tiger Destroid...yet none of that was even looked at. Add the fact this book was years late...our frustrations are extremely high.

This book does have one thing going for it. Genesis Pits and New Gen source books were both this random assortment of materials smashed together and given a name. They do not follow any real theme. At least this one does follow a theme somewhat...its just a theme for 1st edition.

Looks like I will be mentally cutting out the updated Sentinels races and pretty much throwing the rest of the book away.

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-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:13 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Problem is, Marines could have worked really well-- but not like this. Marines would have been nice with support for a "Pacific island hopping in space" style game with material to support that, including at the very least, FTL transports. But we don't get that. I mean, the sentinals races are just a waste because there's very little you can do with them. No worlds, no information on what they're doing right now. Are they refounding their empires? Also under attack? Sent allied forces to help the REF retake earth?


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:13 am
  

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Lt Gargoyle wrote:
HG said they would not give approval for this kind of work. But yet they did.

Did they, though? I just picked up my copy last night, and the overwhelming impression I'm getting on my first skim-through is the Marines book was never intended to have more than the most tangential relationship with Sentinels. Significant failures in the research process aside, this is less a replacement for the Sentinels books than it is a adventure book for faffing about in times and places "adjacent to" the Sentinels story without any actual relevance to it.

I'm a little disappointed to admit that the Marines book, as delivered, met many of my more pessimistic expectations. :(



Kagashi wrote:
Remember, the ball was dropped not only by the author, but by the editor(s) as well. Furthermore, with all Robotech books, it has to be passed by Tommy Yune as well. Nobody caught any of these mistakes before it went to print, mistakes which are so obvious to the fans. Perhaps they should just hire fans in the future...

They DID hire fans, Kagashi... that's a big part of the franchise's problem. The first (and only) time they had serious pros on staff was when Tatsunoko supplied writers to Robotech II: the Sentinels. Those writers (incl. Sukehiro Tomita, writer of many of Macross's most memorable shows) were removed from the project after they complained that they couldn't understand the convoluted and (in their view) unnecessary changes to the source material.

With its difficult production history and the minimal budget given to it by Harmony Gold's management, they had to make do with hiring fans to manage the rebooted Robotech. Tommy is an avowed Robotech and Macross fan. Steve was a fan too, as is Tom Bateman. Kevin McKeever was quite notorious (in the bad way) as a Robotech fan. They had enthusiasm for their work... but not the professional training, experience, or monetary support to do the job at the same level as the professional studios in Japan or Korea.

If I had to guess, I would say I strongly suspect the editorial ball-dropping occurred because Harmony Gold's senior management is very probably no longer interested in supporting the Robotech animated series after being made to look foolish on Kickstarter (by the failure of same, after the staff boasted that success was guaranteed). They seem to be pinning all their hopes on the live action movie (again).



mech798 wrote:
Problem is, Marines could have worked really well-- but not like this. Marines would have been nice with support for a "Pacific island hopping in space" style game with material to support that, including at the very least, FTL transports. But we don't get that.

Probably because there are no canon FTL troop transports... the Horizon shuttles (T and V) are short-range shuttles able to make it from orbit to the surface of a planet and back, or a run to the moon, but no farther. As canon would have it, troop landers have to ride inside the fold bubble of a larger warship (or, in the Crusader-class dropship's case from Prelude, be bolted to the side of said warship).

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:47 pm
  

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Kagashi wrote:
Remember, the ball was dropped not only by the author, but by the editor(s) as well. Furthermore, with all Robotech books, it has to be passed by Tommy Yune as well. Nobody caught any of these mistakes before it went to print, mistakes which are so obvious to the fans. Perhaps they should just hire fans in the future...

The problem with relying on the fans though is that the fandom is fractured on a host of issues. So are you getting it "right" by relying on fans or "right" by some of the fans? I honestly don't think you can get both at this point, at least not without pushing RT into a multi-verse for organization and even then there will be issues that would need to be resolved.

Though at this point for RT I almost wonder if Palladium should consider using a continuity Editor for Robotech products to minimize issues like this. Someone seperate from HG and KS-as-editor-finale-rewrite, someone who's job it is to go over it with a fine-tooth-comb to make sure it fits established material. Dating events/availability likely would be the easiest part, the hard part might come down to technology's game stats which creates a disconnect that already exists owing to a desire by HG to treat TRM/NG as a technology backslide (that really isn't supported by the animation/85ep itself).

mech798 wrote:
Problem is, Marines could have worked really well-- but not like this. Marines would have been nice with support for a "Pacific island hopping in space" style game with material to support that, including at the very least, FTL transports. But we don't get that. I mean, the sentinals races are just a waste because there's very little you can do with them. No worlds, no information on what they're doing right now. Are they refounding their empires? Also under attack? Sent allied forces to help the REF retake earth?

Regarding FTL transports. Is there a real need to create new ships (stating established ships is another matter)? Or aren't the established ships workable in that role with a bit of work as far as what they can carry?

How much PB can do with aliens (Sentienls races) is likely hamstrung by HG (who may not know what they want to do with them yet or reveal to much for some project that likely won't happen). Though given PBs handling of the numerous aliens in Rifts, with only a few getting any major development, I am not surprised by what it sounds like they did in Marines with the Sentinels races.

Seto wrote:
If I had to guess, I would say I strongly suspect the editorial ball-dropping occurred because Harmony Gold's senior management is very probably no longer interested in supporting the Robotech animated series after being made to look foolish on Kickstarter (by the failure of same, after the staff boasted that success was guaranteed). They seem to be pinning all their hopes on the live action movie (again

Well the second RT IP associated Kickstarter you mean. The first one (Tactics, though off hand I don't know how much HG involvement there was at that level) was successful in the sense of raising money for it's KS project, which Academy wasn't. I think the ball-dropping occurred before Academy-KS (like w/comics & TSC given they haven't gone anywhere and the Voltron comic being someone's dream crossover?), Academy-KS was just another nail in the coffin. The only "successful" part of the IP seems to be the RPG/RPG-releated (which is where I would put Tactics) and they don't seem to want to support it with the information the producer needs and doesn't want them to get to "loose" resulting in a repeat of the 90s.

And if they are pinning their hopes on a LA-movie, wouldn't it stand a better chance at being successful (the LA-movie) with support and growth building it up rather than apathy and shrinking base with mostly re-hash products? If they can't get a KS for animation to be successful, doesn't that sort of bode ill for the LA movie? Even with a big name studio/cast?


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:46 pm
  

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I would have liked to have seen how the Corps would have been organized from squad to battalion-level. How they fit into different ships, etc. That was one of things I had hoped to see.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:13 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
mech798 wrote:
Problem is, Marines could have worked really well-- but not like this. Marines would have been nice with support for a "Pacific island hopping in space" style game with material to support that, including at the very least, FTL transports. But we don't get that.

Probably because there are no canon FTL troop transports... the Horizon shuttles (T and V) are short-range shuttles able to make it from orbit to the surface of a planet and back, or a run to the moon, but no farther. As canon would have it, troop landers have to ride inside the fold bubble of a larger warship (or, in the Crusader-class dropship's case from Prelude, be bolted to the side of said warship).

Or in other words it would end up being exactly like a WWII Pacific Island Hopping scenario where the Marines ride to the next island/world on large ships, then disembark onto their landing boats/Assault Shuttles and those go in while the Ships stand off and provide support.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:40 pm
  

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Champion

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
HG said they would not give approval for this kind of work. But yet they did.

Did they, though? I just picked up my copy last night, and the overwhelming impression I'm getting on my first skim-through is the Marines book was never intended to have more than the most tangential relationship with Sentinels. Significant failures in the research process aside, this is less a replacement for the Sentinels books than it is a adventure book for faffing about in times and places "adjacent to" the Sentinels story without any actual relevance to it.

I'm a little disappointed to admit that the Marines book, as delivered, met many of my more pessimistic expectations. :(



I have been under the Belief that all material before final production was to be finalized with their approval. so yea they dropped the ball too.

Arnie100 wrote:
I would have liked to have seen how the Corps would have been organized from squad to battalion-level. How they fit into different ships, etc. That was one of things I had hoped to see.


Hell yea, I fully agree with this as well.



I fully see the Sentinels/Regent war like the Pacific war of WWII.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:55 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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ShadowLogan wrote:

And if they are pinning their hopes on a LA-movie, wouldn't it stand a better chance at being successful (the LA-movie) with support and growth building it up rather than apathy and shrinking base with mostly re-hash products? If they can't get a KS for animation to be successful, doesn't that sort of bode ill for the LA movie? Even with a big name studio/cast?


I strongly doubt we'll ever see a robotech movie. (Note that as yet, no shootng has started, or even any serious preproduction).

but yes, if that was in the cards, it would be imperative for HG to start drumming up publicity.

Which means that HG will do anything but that, because if there is one bit of wisdom we can accept, it is whatever should be done, HG will do 180 degrees the opposite from.

For example the urge to stick to canon?

That's S.T.U.P.I.D. why? Because it limits the material you have going out. Say what you want about the 1980s and 1990s, and some of the stuff was eyewateringly horrible, but it had a real presence in the comic and games markets. What HG has done now, especialyl with Shadow Chronicles, is make "Canon" such a tiny thing as to actively harm the ability to develop the property any more. Compare it to star wars, where even post EU pruning, there is a huge space to develop new narratives.

Warning: Keep your criticism respectful. You don't have to like the actions of Palladium or its partners, but you don't need to be insulting about it either.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:17 am
  

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I think HG could have room for open story lines and multiple universe story lines. It really could not hurt them. And as long as they said that the writings of others would not hinder their their movies story line.

Truthfully we could look at the marines and the Sentinel Novels in that way and everyone could relax a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:46 am
  

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mech798 wrote:
For example the urge to stick to canon?


Considering there is still a metric crapload of material just from Robotech (much of which should have been in this book) that hasn't been put in yet, just what in the frakk is wrong with sticking to the canon?


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:39 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
mech798 wrote:
For example the urge to stick to canon?


Considering there is still a metric crapload of material just from Robotech (much of which should have been in this book) that hasn't been put in yet, just what in the frakk is wrong with sticking to the canon?


Beyond the fact that it's narratively stupid (Oh wow, we're seeking a lost warship with our protoculture matrix on it...where has that ever been done before), It's narratively small. It also, since we hear that Canon is one of the reasons material isn't coming out, is harmful to getting stuff out there. Look at the rack at B&N with all the star trek stuff, half of which contradicts the other half. Paramout, which is more successful than HG could ever dream of being, doesn't care. They don't let it get in the way of a good (or more importantly, reasonably profitable) story. Under HG's new canon insistance, we have one mediocre CGI special, one VERY bad compilation video, a few comic miniseries, a very slow release schedule for palladium.

in other words, very bad for any hope of keeping your IP successful.

And also note that even HG pretty much doesn't have a very good grasp on canon, ranging from population numbers to time numbers, and they certainly didn't seem to spend much time vetting this book on canon. So it's obviously not that important.

I'm honestly not that concerned with it. I probably won't buy this book, or any other book brought out for Robotech. Why? I can slap something together myself if I ever want to run a game, and honestly, this insistance on "canon" simply means that the only stuff we see is stuff that already exists in one form or another.

The thing that made the old stuff so nice was that you could pretty much play whatever style you wanted, from cold war antics with the EBSIS to renegade zentraedi. The changes have pretty much eliminated that, and it's not a change for the better.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:50 am
  

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Champion

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Alright, got my finished copy in yesterday. Time for me to stop speculating about being upset and time to be legitimately upset.

The Good: I absolutely adore the artwork in this book. Chuck Walton is amazing and although I cannot tell who's signature did the Sentinels aliens, that really was a great improvement from the older comic-like versions we grew up with. The Sentinels alien write ups themselves addressed a lot of my concerns from the RAW version and with what little canon material to work with, these descriptions could fit with the current Robotech continuity (for the most part).

I'm including the source material themselves in the good category. Individually, these pieces of equipment are pretty snazzy and could work well if there were not obvious continuity issues. The concept of the non-transformable cyclone and the space cyclones are pretty cool and are welcome additions, as are the revival of the Z-Series Destroids. I actually like the art of them, and they can be explained with a revamp of the fluff text.

The New OCCs are okay, but they could have been one OCC with different MOS's. I did like the addition of the new Invid Scientist which was lacking even from the 1st edition.

Although not officially part of the current continuity and part of a previous comic book canon, the Karbarrian power armor is nice to see.

The Bad: Game mechanic and layout wise, there are a few issues.

1) Reprints: About 17 pages, a good 10% of the book, is reprints of material you already own. You will be paying Palladium two dollars for stuff you already paid for. 17 pages is an enormous amount of material that could have been spent working of material we all already wanted to see. I dont know...like the SDF-3 perhaps!!! You know the central plot device for the entire series. Yeah, we still dont have that, either version, the original or the 2044 refit. We spend 158 pages dealing with artwork that was intentionally not used by the designers for the series, and not once touch upon anything we know is canon, but not yet statted out. Plenty of material from the original 85 episodes have not been touched yet, let alone from the Wildstorm comics. The book already mentions how you need tSC to play the game anyway...why is character creation reprinted...especially when the quick character creation rules are for humans only and this book specifically deals with alien races which cannot use those charts anyway?

2) Perytonians: You guys already know my gripe with the spell list. Its just now verified. Yeah, they mention "Rule Zero", but I hate that and view it as a cop out. Additionally, we still dont know how many spells an Energy Wizard starts out with, nor how many he earns per level. We have a typical Perytonian, but nothing statted out for the 5% whom are energy wizards, and what a player would actually play.

3) Continuity within the artwork. Chuck, you are great, but your art of the Monster is in direct violation of canon sources of LLA which has the older Sentinels style design.

4) Im sure there are more, but have not looked hard enough. Others have already mentioned their findings anyway.

The Ugly: The continuity. Yes, by this point, its a dead horse, so I will not dwell on it. But this book is NOT a book for the current continuity. Its a first edition book, clear and simple. With all their problems, the first three core books (tSC, Macross, Masters) stayed very close to the new continuity. But subsequent books have started falling astray with no theme or direction, culminating with this book's utter lack of respect for the continuity.

Overall: This book scores a "worst book ever" in my opinion. Canon and continuity are very important aspects for me and this book fails hard. It is certainly last of all the 2nd Edition books (not that the trend is breaking with new releases...) Jason Marker needs to return to fix what he fixed to begin with. It would make a decent Rifts Space source book as far a the source material is concerned.

I think the continuity can be fixed with a "deluxe" version, but honestly, Im tired of paying Palladium twice for their errors. I did it with the Shadow Chronicles RPG manga to the Deluxe hard cover, then with Macross when they went from Manga sized to full sized. I did with with Rifts Ultimate Edition 1st printing to 2nd printing. And I already shelled out $20.00 for the RAW version before I bought this monstrosity and Ill likely buy any deluxe version to make it right in my head (if it's right). I am going to go back to my original stance...never preorder from Palladium and never buy the first print of any product.

This is frustrating because no comic shop carries Palladium on the shelf for me to thumb through to decide if its a good book or not. I have to rely on inputs from you guys, or take the risk to buy it on my own online.

_________________
I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:53 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
If I had to guess, I would say I strongly suspect the editorial ball-dropping occurred because Harmony Gold's senior management is very probably no longer interested in supporting the Robotech animated series after being made to look foolish on Kickstarter (by the failure of same, after the staff boasted that success was guaranteed). They seem to be pinning all their hopes on the live action movie (again

Well the second RT IP associated Kickstarter you mean.

No, I mean the first (and only) Robotech Kickstarter to actually involve Harmony Gold's management directly... Robotech Academy.


ShadowLogan wrote:
And if they are pinning their hopes on a LA-movie, wouldn't it stand a better chance at being successful (the LA-movie) with support and growth building it up rather than apathy and shrinking base with mostly re-hash products? If they can't get a KS for animation to be successful, doesn't that sort of bode ill for the LA movie? Even with a big name studio/cast?


In the unlikely event that it gets made, we already know the live-action movie is going to be a re-imagined Robotech that will effectively start from zero. Why would the sales of merchandise based on the animated series to the few thousand people left who still buy Robotech merchandise have any effect at all? Robotech has effectively zero name recognition among non-fans and those whose fandoms are negatively impacted by Robotech's owners (Macross, Battletech Transformers), so general audiences aren't going to know or care about the animated series or Harmony Gold's handling of its merchandise.

(If the live-action movie is released, Harmony Gold will almost certainly choose to abandon the animated Robotech in favor of exploiting that... so the opinions of existing fans have probably never been less relevant to them.)



Kagashi wrote:
3) Continuity within the artwork. Chuck, you are great, but your art of the Monster is in direct violation of canon sources of LLA which has the older Sentinels style design.

That thing in LLA doesn't match the design of the old Sentinels monster (too few gun barrels), so they can justifiably claim it's something different.


Kagashi wrote:
Overall: This book scores a "worst book ever" in my opinion. Canon and continuity are very important aspects for me and this book fails hard.

Just from what I've read of it thus far, the Marines book is arguably almost as bad, accuracy-wise, as the old Macross II RPG... and those missed the mark so hard Macross's owners don't even acknowledge their existence. The only way Macross II's does it worse is the internal inconsistencies in the crunch and the misspelling of the alien enemy's name. Admittedly, even in the Macross II RPG we didn't have living characters being reported as dead decades before their major character arcs start... or being in two places at once, witnessing things later plots suggest nobody human actually knows about.

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:09 pm
  

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I'm afraid my big disappointment is that the new MAC just looks so FRAGILE compared to the familiar walking bricks of the past. The more humanoid posture does NOT do it any favors. One good recoil from the guns on full charge and I'm afraid the cannons and the main body will part company, or the upper torso will just sheer backwards, leaving the legs just standing there.

GMU Recovery Vehicle Crewmember: "Damn it...we gotta go out and haul back ANOTHER bisected REF Monster? That makes, what, five already today? Wouldn't missile bombardment be easier? We can at least TOW Arbalests."

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:12 pm
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
In the unlikely event that it gets made, we already know the live-action movie is going to be a re-imagined Robotech that will effectively start from zero. Why would the sales of merchandise based on the animated series to the few thousand people left who still buy Robotech merchandise have any effect at all? Robotech has effectively zero name recognition among non-fans and those whose fandoms are negatively impacted by Robotech's owners (Macross, Battletech Transformers), so general audiences aren't going to know or care about the animated series or Harmony Gold's handling of its merchandise.

(If the live-action movie is released, Harmony Gold will almost certainly choose to abandon the animated Robotech in favor of exploiting that... so the opinions of existing fans have probably never been less relevant to them.)

I agree it is unlikely it will get made.

Sale of merchandise can give the studio an idea how much demand/interest there is for what they might produce. That their product will be its own continuity shouldn't matter, since it will be connected in some way to what has come before. That may entice them to pass over moving RT production forward in favor of something more attractive (which can include an unknown) since they don't have unlimited funds.

mech798 wrote:
For example the urge to stick to canon?

I think this isn't a bad thing, though I do think the canon they have tried to create is bad, the urge to stick/have a canon is needed even if it has to come down to putting things into a multi-verse setup.

If inter-period SBs (as in between the arcs of 85ep) are going to introduce something new, it shouldn't be something that can already be covered by designs they haven't touched yet from the 85ep, or even just variants of designs they have covered. By the numbering scheme, there are few "old" slots they can fill, so variants make more sense than "new" in a lot of cases unless each era used a unique (to that era) numbering system.


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:22 pm
  

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Knight

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Sooooo.... I guess the short answer is; I get to save $20+ dollars? *ebil grinz*

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:50 pm
  

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Champion

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Oh yea..here's some more....

- CVR-3 and Gallant H-90 not available until 2035? Wow, guess the Old Coots in Ghost Town must have stolen those CVR-3 suits (someone explain how they got munchkin-sized armor for "Shorty"). And Lancer must be a complete and total moron to have identified the Gallant H-90's in their arsenal as "dating clear back to the War against The Robotech Masters".
- Lang doesn't start developing the Cyclones (according to the new timeline) until after the war against the Invid Regent is over in 2029. So...Marines have no Cyclones until after the war with the Invid in deep space is over? Can someone explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever? Funny that Dana Sterling has CVR-3F Body Armor on in Robotech: Love, Live, Alive....which is set in 2031 and was mass produced enough to rearm The Army of the Southern Cross.....


Dont forget that the Cyclones were not developed until after 2029...but the Z-Series Officer Destroids contain a -10 series cyclone...but these Officer pods were used to liberate Tirol and Karbarran, which according to the same timeline that states cyclones were developed in 2029, claims these campaigns happened in 2026 when it began to be phased out by the Bioroid Interceptor. So the Officer Pods contain cyclones 3 years prior to when they were developed.

_________________
I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:00 am
  

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Champion

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Kagashi wrote:
So the Officer Pods contain cyclones 3 years prior to when they were developed.


I also love the fact the fluff text on some of the Cyclones says they were designed specifically to go toe-to-toe with Bioroids. That is laughable to say the least as the Cyclone does not fundamentally offer much more in the way of armor protection than the ASC Arming Doublet and we see how bad infantry vs. Bioroids fare. And, of course, we see how badly an entire squad of Cyclone Riders fare against a single Invid Enforcer. The sad part is that I'm sure the author, who apparently did not watch the Tv series, believes that a Cyclone could go toe-to-toe with a mecha some three times its size.....


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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:23 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:09 am
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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
So the Officer Pods contain cyclones 3 years prior to when they were developed.


I also love the fact the fluff text on some of the Cyclones says they were designed specifically to go toe-to-toe with Bioroids. That is laughable to say the least as the Cyclone does not fundamentally offer much more in the way of armor protection than the ASC Arming Doublet and we see how bad infantry vs. Bioroids fare. And, of course, we see how badly an entire squad of Cyclone Riders fare against a single Invid Enforcer. The sad part is that I'm sure the author, who apparently did not watch the Tv series, believes that a Cyclone could go toe-to-toe with a mecha some three times its size.....


Unless you're Scott Bernard...

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 Post subject: Re: New Marine Book
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:34 am
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

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well in the RPG cyclones fair ok against bioroids. but i'm not sure that i'd want to make that claim for the weaker VR-010's..

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