Invid Commander mecha a good match for the Alpha?

[bielmic]

I'm curious if there are any thoughts about the two mecha above and if they are approximately equivalent in overall power. They have roughly similar MDC, weapon loadouts (better but less missiles on alpha than on the Invid), and speed (Alpha is faster overall but only in jet mode). The reason I'm asking is that I've been looking at some of my old and new-ish robotech rpg books while watching paint dry on some models and was curious as to how to possibly incorporate one of my favoriate original rpg mecha into the current books (the Zentraedi Striker Battloid). The ZBR-10 battloid in the shadow chronicles core book is a good "update" for friendly bioroid characters but it really doesn't capture the feel of the ZSB as it is way too slow in flight. Does anyone see any potential problems with using the Invid Commander mecha stats as the ZSB? I'd obviously get rid of the protoculture sensor and instead just sub in the alpha sensors and equipment (just like the ZBR). The only other housekeeping issue I see is that the invid stats just have a flat value for the number of attacks for the pilots (makes sense as they're at a flat common level for NPCs) so I'd sub in the alpha stats for attack progression as well (and the original ZSB did that as well as an option). Ideas? I'm just very underwhelmed with both of the battloids in the shadow chronicles book in terms of mobility. While I obviously just could create all the stats out of thin air, I've found that using an existing mecha whenever possible as a template is easier both for comprehension, bookkeeping, and acceptance. As a side note, that last part is a bit inconsequential as I don't have any (possibility for a) group so this is more theoretical than anything.

[ShadowLogan]

Why not just port the Zentreadi Striker Battloid straight from 1E Bk6pg109-12 as is. MDC isn't significantly different between the ZBR-10 and and it. Just give the ZSB-20 an appropriately updated back story. Might have to tweak the bonuses based on the 2E (in 1E its based on the ZFPA, so in 2E might have to tweak it to be similar)

But yes the 2E flying battloids in the TSC mainbook did get the shaft if you are comparing them to Veritech's vehicle mode (the ZBR-10 is comparable to an Alpha/Beta in terms of flight speed in Battloid mode). But aren't that out of place compared to similar platforms in an atmosphere, in space (that's another matter). It might just be easier to improve their mobility with an add-on (FAST-Pack/Beta like, animation shows the Condor with such a system, but it isn't stated out) or use of a transport vehicle (ex Horizon), rather than go monkeying with stats.

[bielmic]

Why not just port the Zentreadi Striker Battloid straight from 1E Bk6pg109-12 as is. MDC isn't significantly different between the ZBR-10 and and it. Just give the ZSB-20 an appropriately updated back story. Might have to tweak the bonuses based on the 2E (in 1E its based on the ZFPA, so in 2E might have to tweak it to be similar)

But yes the 2E flying battloids in the TSC mainbook did get the shaft if you are comparing them to Veritech's vehicle mode (the ZBR-10 is comparable to an Alpha/Beta in terms of flight speed in Battloid mode). But aren't that out of place compared to similar platforms in an atmosphere, in space (that's another matter). It might just be easier to improve their mobility with an add-on (FAST-Pack/Beta like, animation shows the Condor with such a system, but it isn't stated out) or use of a transport vehicle (ex Horizon), rather than go monkeying with stats.

I didn't port it over for a couple of reasons that I hinted at in my original post (comprehension, bookkeeping, and acceptance). Porting the stats over from ROTMpartDeux means that I'm technically using "outdated" rules from a long OOP book which pretty much don't meet the above criteria. Your suggestion is reasonable but it makes it a bit difficult for others to use though. For instance, if I just port over the stats directly from ROTM, the ZSB is the only mecha in shadow chronicles that has an autododge. Now the rules for autododge (and palladium combat in general frankly) are a hodgepodge mess but they are powerful and it would instantly make it stand out as "different" and also the ZBR doesn't have any normal dodge bonuses at all which is likely just a slapdash rules oversight. Additionally, the missile loadout on the original ZSB is noticeably better than the alpha. Do those two factors balance out the fairly weak MDC for a 28ft tall battloid? (less than that of the 23ft ZBR and markedly less than an alpha battloid of the same height). Now, admittedly none of those are a huge bother individually or game breaking but porting it over as a whole seems more troublesome to me personally since I'd need to change stuff anyways (which partly defeats the purpose). With the Invid "counts as" option, you just use the stats that are already in the book a potential player/GM already must own to play the game and I'm just putting on one stat and some equipment as is from a different part of the book. It seems like the easiest option and honestly to me at least feels appropriate. It has the speed that I expect from a ZSB, it has the armament (missiles, disc burst for the arm weapons and more powerful arm beam and head laser from the chest cluster), it has equivalent combat stats like bonuses and MDC already, and it is in the book players must own.

I guess I'm back to the original question... do you feel that the invid commander is a bad match? You offered a reasonable alternative but, as the only respondent so far, didn't answer the original question of whether you feel the invid commander is too much.

As for the other battloids, yeah, I agree. The speeds are very underwhelming. I'd have preferred if the ZBR atmosphere speed was about double what it is (600mph) to make it roughly on par with an alpha guardian but still obviously inferior to the alpha jet. I've seen pics in various sigs here of a "bigger" condor with lots of fast pack type jets on its back so that might work for that one but I don't think the ZBR necessarily needs it.

[ShadowLogan]

Porting the stats over from ROTMpartDeux means that I'm technically using "outdated" rules from a long OOP book which pretty much don't meet the above criteria.

Believe it or not, at the core the core rules haven't changed that much between 1E and 2E, and things can generally be dropped in as is between the two lines. XP in use though might require some fine tuning. Now game mechanic values have changed, but they still function the same as they always have.

What you could do though is simply replace the Mecha Combat in 1E with an equivalent in 2E (Alpha or Zentreadi FPA seem most appropriate from the text in 1E).

For instance, if I just port over the stats directly from ROTM, the ZSB is the only mecha in shadow chronicles that has an autododge

Niet. The Cyclone has Autododge (which functionally is Leap Dodge by another name). Given that the ZSB is supposed to emulate the Zentraedi Female Power Armor (and even takes systems derived from it), it having Auto-Dodge is not out of place when you consider than in 2E the ZFPA has Auto-Dodge.

Additionally, the missile loadout on the original ZSB is noticeably better than the alpha. Do those two factors balance out the fairly weak MDC for a 28ft tall battloid? (less than that of the 23ft ZBR and markedly less than an alpha battloid of the same height)

Considering the Alpha has to make sacrifices to accommodate a transformation system, and the Alpha doesn't have those two back boosters like the ZSB that contain extra missiles (which really pushes the ZSB count up) yes the Missile load out can be justified. If you feel it is to much, you could reduce it or reclassify them as Mini's.

As for the MDC, remember that the ZSB may have "weaker" armor for political reasons (in 1E the REF Zentreadi Battle/Officers Pods are weaker than the Destroids in terms of MDC) depending on who is intended to use it. Then again it may have to have that weaker armor to allow for flight (or its high speed flight), etc. There can be reasons to justify the ZSB stats "as is", but it can be done.

I guess I'm back to the original question... do you feel that the invid commander is a bad match? You offered a reasonable alternative but, as the only respondent so far, didn't answer the original question of whether you feel the invid commander is too much.

In terms of flight speed, the Invid Commander is okay I guess, but I would probably look at UEEF VT battloids more. Your changes aren't unreasonable to make the IC into a UEEF mecha in raw terms, but feels to much like a copy & paste job, and would need to explain why the UEEF/Invid mecha are so similar since it is unlikely the Invid encountered many of them (the Beta fighter seems to really have more of an influence on their later mecha than the Alpha).

The question you have to consider is if the UEEF would have/want a non-variable battloid that can compete (or even out compete) with a Veritech Fighter in given areas. That means it could be "political" as opposed to "technology" that keeps the non-variable battloids "weak".

I've seen pics in various sigs here of a "bigger" condor with lots of fast pack type jets on its back

The shot I think of is in the show ("Secret Route"), but the line art in the RPG and new comics avoids the pack. So the Condor on its own may not be very fast (though given it was originally designed as a Veritech and an alternative to the Beta, I would think it should have similar specs in that realm) without the pack. It is something that AFAIK hasn't been stated. One problem in 2E books I think many will agree with is that the main book feels more like 1.5E with later saga books feeling like 2E given game mechanic stats.

[bielmic]

For instance, if I just port over the stats directly from ROTM, the ZSB is the only mecha in shadow chronicles that has an autododge

Niet. The Cyclone has Autododge (which functionally is Leap Dodge by another name). Given that the ZSB is supposed to emulate the Zentraedi Female Power Armor (and even takes systems derived from it), it having Auto-Dodge is not out of place when you consider than in 2E the ZFPA has Auto-Dodge.

Sorry, I wasn't clear there that I was talking about mecha that are rouhgly equivalent to the alpha and not completely different in scale, size, and scope. You are obviously correct about the cyclone but I wasn't including that in the comparison for the above reasons.

I guess I'm back to the original question... do you feel that the invid commander is a bad match? You offered a reasonable alternative but, as the only respondent so far, didn't answer the original question of whether you feel the invid commander is too much.

In terms of flight speed, the Invid Commander is okay I guess, but I would probably look at UEEF VT battloids more. Your changes aren't unreasonable to make the IC into a UEEF mecha in raw terms, but feels to much like a copy & paste job, and would need to explain why the UEEF/Invid mecha are so similar since it is unlikely the Invid encountered many of them (the Beta fighter seems to really have more of an influence on their later mecha than the Alpha).

The sameness (to borrow from the video game industry) is a feature, not a bug. I had also thought about just using the guardian alpha superiority profile instead but that felt too "same" for me despite the benefit of it instantly putting to rest any talk of it being overpowered compared to the alpha. Using the invid mecha gives it a bit of an alien feel in terms of play and capability (not a bad thing for a zent-human hybrid mecha) similar to the bioroid for the Masters saga. This may all be for naught as I don't know what/if zent inspired mecha are coming up in the marines book officially for this edition of the RPG.

I've seen pics in various sigs here of a "bigger" condor with lots of fast pack type jets on its back

The shot I think of is in the show ("Secret Route"), but the line art in the RPG and new comics avoids the pack. So the Condor on its own may not be very fast (though given it was originally designed as a Veritech and an alternative to the Beta, I would think it should have similar specs in that realm) without the pack. It is something that AFAIK hasn't been stated. One problem in 2E books I think many will agree with is that the main book feels more like 1.5E with later saga books feeling like 2E given game mechanic stats.

There is a multiple personality feel going through the various books for me this edition. I find weird stuff like the original macross mecha that were humanity's first attempts at mecha having autododge standard (for valkyries) and throw away mecha like battlepods having it as well but the more supposedly advanced smaller stuff that replaced it (for the humans) or was supposed to be saved for the masters (for the bioroids) not having it. I just chalk it up to different authors and very little cohesive oversight from the palladium to make sure that the three actually mesh well together. It is ironic that it feels like three different and unbalanced RPGs mashed together into one "system" given the provenance of the original show it is based on. YMMV.