How to deal with the glut of skills in the game

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Okay,

I want to broach a topic that I bet will get me 10,000 angry replies, but I don't care. The simple fact is the game as it stands now is way too complex. Not only are the game mechanics broken, but I think the skills list is overcomplicated. There are too many skills. Period. Most of the skill list should be pared down to be less insane (and skills restricted to certain MOS selections). I almost wonder if something more akin to Recon: Modern Combat would not be better:

- Basic Training (depends upon Service Branch)
- Pick your Primary MOS
- Pick a Secondary MOS

Each MOS has a fixed set of skills, leaving you at the end to pick 4 "Other Skills" to represent additional learning gained during training. Voila, you're done and ready to climb in your mecha and go.

You spend XP in the same manner as in Recon, to improve skills (ie - dispensing with Levels altogether).

Edit: I decided to completely delete the Domestic Skills category. Only Civilian OCC characters would really need most of those skills anyway. A few exceptions exist like the Tirolian Muse.

[flatline]

I'm all for it!

Simplify your game as much as possible while retaining the flavor you want.

Get rid of skill rolls except at dramatically appropriate times.

Replace the skill list with a better thought out skill list from another game (or of your own design).

Do whatever it takes to get the most enjoyment out of your game time.

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

i disagree.. robotech is not just about fighting.. there is plenty of chance for non-combat roleplay, and in that area the current RPG does just fine.
remember that in the show, we see a lot of non-combat stuff going on with the characters, and the characters have knowledge of stuff beyond "drive a mecha".

under this approach you'd not really be able to do Louis Nichols for example.. or Rand.

[Jefffar]

Indeed, without the domestic skills nobody is going to be able to make a Pineapple Salad.


In regards to skills, there are a number of redundant/duplicate skills to be sure. A careful reading of what's there and some editing could probably cut down the overall skill list by maybe 10% without needing to eliminate categories or significantly alter anything.

I do like the Branch, MOS, MOS idea for military characters. Did something similar last game I ran, Southern Cross Era, everyone got a two MOSes to make up for the fact that basically everyone was Tactical Corps.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

under this approach you'd not really be able to do Louis Nichols for example.. or Rand.

Except you're assuming I got rid of everything but combat skills. I didn't since there would still be a Bio-Maintenance Engineer MOS (and related ones like Motorpool Mechanic).

[parkhyun]

What I'd like is some better explanation of how skills are used in game: how do you distinguish between hard and easy things? What happens when you fail? What influence does your stats have? Can you spend more time trying? I don't remember the rules ever addressing these issues.

[glitterboy2098]

under this approach you'd not really be able to do Louis Nichols for example.. or Rand.

Except you're assuming I got rid of everything but combat skills. I didn't since there would still be a Bio-Maintenance Engineer MOS (and related ones like Motorpool Mechanic).

except louis was not a mechanic or engineer by MOS.. he was a tanker. those technical skills were all non-MOS, Non-OCC. which would not be possible under the outline you gave above.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

except louis was not a mechanic or engineer by MOS.. he was a tanker. those technical skills were all non-MOS, Non-OCC. which would not be possible under the outline you gave above.

Oh really?

- Basic Training (depends upon Service Branch)
- Pick your Primary MOS
- Pick a Secondary MOS

[The Artist Formerly]

More skills=better. Skills are how more then blowing stuff up and keeping your tank on the road. They help define the character. More options give the players more ways to highlight the character's design. Otherwise you're just one of the Veritech fighters with the grey trim who maybe doesn't get blown up.

[Tiree]

Taffy - I disagree.

Less skills, but with more versatility to them are really the ones that are important. Right now Robotech has over 200 skills, closer to 300 if you count each Mecha Combat as separate entities. Each OCC gets less than 40. You would need a few teams to have every skill covered. It's not worth it. What you need to do is combine every skill as much as possible. Get it so you don't need more than 5 to 10 players to cover every skill needed.

Then you have something

[The Artist Formerly]

Taffy - I disagree.

Less skills, but with more versatility to them are really the ones that are important. Right now Robotech has over 200 skills, closer to 300 if you count each Mecha Combat as separate entities. Each OCC gets less than 40. You would need a few teams to have every skill covered. It's not worth it. What you need to do is combine every skill as much as possible. Get it so you don't need more than 5 to 10 players to cover every skill needed.

Then you have something

It's bigger then that though. Over the years, I've had six or seven long running Veritech pilots. They all had the same basic skill set. But I am most found of Watchman (Trevor Macguire). He fast talked EBSIS guards into not calling their superiors and checking his ID, he danced with Lisa Hayes (**** you Hunter), and worked as a chef at the diner club where York leadership for the labor party often ate(and met their mistresses and lovers). Your skill set defines your character. Helps differentiate the character from other characters you've played.

[Tiree]

Taffy - I disagree.

Less skills, but with more versatility to them are really the ones that are important. Right now Robotech has over 200 skills, closer to 300 if you count each Mecha Combat as separate entities. Each OCC gets less than 40. You would need a few teams to have every skill covered. It's not worth it. What you need to do is combine every skill as much as possible. Get it so you don't need more than 5 to 10 players to cover every skill needed.

Then you have something

It's bigger then that though. Over the years, I've had six or seven long running Veritech pilots. They all had the same basic skill set. But I am most found of Watchman (Trevor Macguire). He fast talked EBSIS guards into not calling their superiors and checking his ID, he danced with Lisa Hayes (**** you Hunter), and worked as a chef at the diner club where York leadership for the labor party often ate(and met their mistresses and lovers). Your skill set defines your character. Helps differentiate the character from other characters you've played.

Skills don't define characters. Personalities, background, and the adventures do.

I have two characters in d20 Star Wars. Practically the same skills, same classes. But they are different by the adventures they have gone through. The stories that were told, and the actions they have done.

[guardiandashi]

IMO there are arguments that can be made for both points of view. with that said In a lot of ways I prefer the palladium method of handling skills vs the D20 systems method ESPECIALLY in a "tech" environment like star wars.

whoever thought "soldiers" don't need no stinking skills, and especially the gimped Jedi (guardians) should be held down and slapped a lot IMO

[Jefffar]

Part of the issue is that once upon a time, Palladium heavily stratified their skill lists into skills that could only be done with highly specialized training, some skills that didn't need such rigourous training, but would still be beyond the average person to pick up without some help and some really basic skills anyone could learn.

The divisions still remain, but the skill list has been merged somewhat so now there are a lot of skills that are lesser and greater versions of the same thing. This results in the same skill selection could be used, for example, to pick up basic mechanics, automotive mechanics or mechanical engineering.

This is what makes things seem so bloated and skills seem redundant.

[guardiandashi]

Part of the issue is that once upon a time, Palladium heavily stratified their skill lists into skills that could only be done with highly specialized training, some skills that didn't need such rigourous training, but would still be beyond the average person to pick up without some help and some really basic skills anyone could learn.

The divisions still remain, but the skill list has been merged somewhat so now there are a lot of skills that are lesser and greater versions of the same thing. This results in the same skill selection could be used, for example, to pick up basic mechanics, automotive mechanics or mechanical engineering.

This is what makes things seem so bloated and skills seem redundant.

agree I think one thing that would help that issue in some ways would be to have more clear "prereq" and or "bonus skill" paths listed better.

I will use an example some of the skills such as in CWC say class can take x y and z skills, if they choose y skill they get y2 automatically as a "bonus skill"

so having a char that can pick up in "robotech" say robotech mechanics and it requires x and y skills in addition I kind of like when you just get some of the "requireds" without using up additional skill selections.

[The Artist Formerly]

Taffy - I disagree.

Less skills, but with more versatility to them are really the ones that are important. Right now Robotech has over 200 skills, closer to 300 if you count each Mecha Combat as separate entities. Each OCC gets less than 40. You would need a few teams to have every skill covered. It's not worth it. What you need to do is combine every skill as much as possible. Get it so you don't need more than 5 to 10 players to cover every skill needed.

Then you have something

It's bigger then that though. Over the years, I've had six or seven long running Veritech pilots. They all had the same basic skill set. But I am most found of Watchman (Trevor Macguire). He fast talked EBSIS guards into not calling their superiors and checking his ID, he danced with Lisa Hayes (**** you Hunter), and worked as a chef at the diner club where York leadership for the labor party often ate(and met their mistresses and lovers). Your skill set defines your character. Helps differentiate the character from other characters you've played.

Skills don't define characters. Personalities, background, and the adventures do.

I have two characters in d20 Star Wars. Practically the same skills, same classes. But they are different by the adventures they have gone through. The stories that were told, and the actions they have done.

Skills are an expression of those characters. When the GM gives us the problem(s) that we need to solve, the first thing I do is think about the skill set I have to work with, and see how they can be applied to the problem.

For example, I needed to find out where York was keeping stolen RDF mecha. How do I do that? I don't have the Computer Programing skill (and Comp hack doesn't exist in Palladium books yet). I don't have the skill set to break in and swipe the information from York military HQ. But I do have a decent MA, and I'm pretty good at cooking. Asking a few questions of the GM, I find out that there is diner club in York, where the high powered come to dine. I get a job there. After a week of working, one of the other PCs hits the car of the head chef in traffic. Hard enough to put him in the hospital. Everyone on the staff moves up one rank for the night. I slipped a micro-radio transmitter into the under secretary of defense's oysters on the half shell. Skills used, cooking + radio basic. Impersonation/disguise check could have been called for, but I use my Trust/intimidate instead. A staged event to forced him to run to the secret base. Game, set match with the RDF for the win.

Might have something to do with play style, but when I build a character, it's not a piece built for adventures. They are these guys, who happen to find themselves at the core of these pivotal moments.

[Nightmask]

Taffy - I disagree.

Less skills, but with more versatility to them are really the ones that are important. Right now Robotech has over 200 skills, closer to 300 if you count each Mecha Combat as separate entities. Each OCC gets less than 40. You would need a few teams to have every skill covered. It's not worth it. What you need to do is combine every skill as much as possible. Get it so you don't need more than 5 to 10 players to cover every skill needed.

Then you have something

It's bigger then that though. Over the years, I've had six or seven long running Veritech pilots. They all had the same basic skill set. But I am most found of Watchman (Trevor Macguire). He fast talked EBSIS guards into not calling their superiors and checking his ID, he danced with Lisa Hayes (**** you Hunter), and worked as a chef at the diner club where York leadership for the labor party often ate(and met their mistresses and lovers). Your skill set defines your character. Helps differentiate the character from other characters you've played.

Skills don't define characters. Personalities, background, and the adventures do.

I have two characters in d20 Star Wars. Practically the same skills, same classes. But they are different by the adventures they have gone through. The stories that were told, and the actions they have done.

Of course skills define characters, or at least they're an important aspect of the character. How the non-mecha pilot for example interacts with an adventure is going to be different than the one who is one, especially if piloting mecha is important some or most of the time. Which is why a varied skill selection is important, so you don't feel like you're playing just another generic member of a particular character class where if you get killed they just drop another one in and keep moving on without interruption.

[jedi078]

I consider the OCC skills to be 'basic training' as well as subsequent follow up training one receives before going to MOS school. In doing this I had to revamp a few OCC's For example the ATAC OCC was renamed Armored Tactical Assault Corps and hover tank pilot was just one of the available MOS selections.

Primary MOS is of course one's primary MOS. What I did when re-writing the ASC OCC and MOS's is ensure that even IF all the characters have the same OCC (such as in my game set on Mars where the PC's are all TSC grunts) everyone would not have the same MOS, but have MOS's respective of their role within an infantry squad or platoon. Likewise I expanded the total number of veritech pilot MOS's in my games to a total of 6, along with a WSO and EWO MOS for 'backseaters'

Realistically a secondary MOS is not all that common, and when you pick up a secondary MOS you often will not return to your primary MOS, and if you do it will be several years before you do so (I speak from real life experience here because I held a secondary MOS while I was in the USMC). That said in Robotech one can argue that due to manpower shortages a serviceman could be sent to a secondary MOS as long as it complemented his/her primary MOS. For example Louie was a VHT crewman, and it is my opinion has held some sort of tech MOS for fixing and maintaining the VHT's.

Number of OCC related and secondary skills. My simple solution to this was to use the character IQ attribute to determine how many 'other' skills the character gets. Divide the IQ by half and round up for OCC Related skills. For secondary skills divide IQ by half and round down. For example with an IQ of 11 the character gets 6 OCC related and 5 secondary skills.

Domestic skills Many of the domestic skills listed in the book have relevance to military life. The rest make great hobbies, or secondary job or areas of interest.

I did a lot of cleaning (i.e. Housekeeping) while I was in the USMC. Every single Thursday we had to clean the heck out of our room far beyond making it sanitary. My first job after I got out of the USMC included janitorial duties, and I put my co-workers to shame to the point that they didn't like the fact I made them look bad because my quality of work was ten times better then theirs. That said the Housekeeping has relevance in a military themed RPG. Mind you not every serviceman would posses this skill, but a fair amount of them would.

One also has to prepare themselves for uniform inspections while in the military. So the Wardrobe and Grooming skill also has relevance. Again, not every serviceman would posses this skill, but a fair amount of them would.

Sewing.....I had to sew plenty of buttons back on my uniforms because I did not have time before an inspection to take the article of clothing down to the seamstress and have it professionally done. Such a fix though was only temporary because I could sew worth a dang. Still a few guys int he platoon could perfectly sew the chevrons on their dress uniforms

It is my personal belief as a GM that personality, background (and I have a big set of tables for players to roll on to determine their characters military service history), and skill set defines the character. You can't really do this with the OCC's, MOS's and number of OCC related and secondary skills you can select per what's in the books.

[Kagashi]

Domestic skills Many of the domestic skills listed in the book have relevance to military life.

Not to mention cooking. I have been at many of FOBs where there was no DFAC and we had to live off the local economy. In some places, we had our own gardens which required basic gardening . Mostly because we would go hungry if the air lift didnt make it out in time to give us our MREs and water. I'd imagine in Robotech, similar situations would arise but on a planetary scale, especially hopping from planet to planet fighting Invid. Same with water conservation. Luckily we had a few hunters in the groups and we were able to fresh eat meat from wild goats and such, but without that cooking skill, we would all have parasites today (prolly do...)!

You spend XP in the same manner as in Recon, to improve skills (ie - dispensing with Levels altogether).

Now...this...is something that I have been tinkering with myself. I never liked how a character suddenly gets better at EVERYTHING all at the same time. Even skills which the character has NEVER used. This way, a player could make his Pilot Veritech skill be extremely high, but not focus on the Prowl skill which he rarely uses.

As a matter of a fact, I think each skill should have atrophy over a certain time has passed (like every 3 months of game time each skill drops 1-3%), replicating when you had learned something, but didn't use it or build upon it over time, you drop in proficiency ("Man, I used to be good at this, now I'm fumbling through what used to be a simple procedure" or "whew...boy am I out of shape...I used to be able to run this in 10 minutes flat".). Basically, if you don't use it, you lose it.

The only real issue I have with this system is, it is very in the weeds and requires a lot of bookkeeping. This means from the GM perspective, the hundreds of NPCs would need this care as well...which is why the blanket level system works so well. "I need 50 zentraedi, all level 5" and you are 90% there. Perhaps NPCs should follow the easier, current, method and Player Characters could use this more tactical approach to character development.

[ShadowLogan]

[quote="Kagashi"]Now...this...is something that I have been tinkering with myself. I never liked how a character suddenly gets better at EVERYTHING all at the same time. Even skills which the character has NEVER used. This way, a player could make his Pilot Veritech skill be extremely high, but not focus on the Prowl skill which he rarely uses.

As a matter of a fact, I think each skill should have atrophy over a certain time has passed (like every 3 months of game time each skill drops 1-3%), replicating when you had learned something, but didn't use it or build upon it over time, you drop in proficiency ("Man, I used to be good at this, now I'm fumbling through what used to be a simple procedure" or "whew...boy am I out of shape...I used to be able to run this in 10 minutes flat".). Basically, if you don't use it, you lose it.
The problem with spending generic XP to improve skills instead of level is that they can do the same thing. They can essentially leave Pilot Veritech at starting level and spend the XP on some of their other skills they seldom use. I know I've seen skill atrophy rules/examples in places for other Palladium lines, but I also assume that in the "down" time between scenes/sessions characters are at least practicing their skills to explain how they get better.

I will admit this is something I've considered to, doing away with levels like in the Fuzion/Inter-lock Systems of RL Tolsien. But run into the above, and keeping track of each named skill use would be a lot of extra work unless it could be automated.

[flatline]

Some "skills" aren't worth spending a skill slot on them.

As a kid, I planted carrot seeds, watered them, and ate them all summer long. I didn't have a "gardening" skill, but I was capable of following simple directions.

I would let a character do the same without spending a skill slot.

--flatline

[The Artist Formerly]

Some "skills" aren't worth spending a skill slot on them.

As a kid, I planted carrot seeds, watered them, and ate them all summer long. I didn't have a "gardening" skill, but I was capable of following simple directions.

I would let a character do the same without spending a skill slot.

--flatline

But during Invid Invasion period, gardening could be very, very useful...

[MikelAmroni]

There are a LOT of places in the existing skill list where you could EASILY combine skills. And add in the ones that are desperately needed to be added/expanded/or better explained (social skills, I'm looking at you). And there are multiple skills that are really different versions of the same skill (Lore, for example).

Star Wars D6 and D20 (among others) actually have a decent way of dealing with this. Certain skills can be done by anyone with a normal amount of training. Certain skills required advanced training. The way to determine your success without a specific skill was to use the attribute for your roll. In a percentile system, you might need to do attribute x 2 (or combine two attributes), but then you could let folks try simple stuff without demanding a skill expenditure. Then add a certain amount per level if it's trained, along with a boost from OCC. Incidentally, P.S. and Speed (the easiest attributes to raise) would get the fewest skills.

[Zer0 Kay]

. Angry post

[glitterboy2098]

to use gardening as an example.. yes if you follow the instructions you can grow something.

but with the skill, you can produce bigger yields (bigger individual vegetables/fruit, or more per plant, or both), could know when and where to plant without packet instructions, would know when and how to fertilize and pollinate, would be able to attempt to adjust the seed packet instructions to account for shifts in climate (due to nuclear winter/iceage, changes in regional weather patterns, and so on), and would know how to determine how to replant the results of the growing season the next years. (since many modern plants have been bred in such a way that the food product does not produce viable seeds or produce seeds in such a fashion they are not good for replanting. many breeds nowadays require special cultivation to produce the seeds for replanting..at the expense of the food value of the produce.

someone with the gardening skills would be able to attempt to account for all those factors. it basically a (small scale focus) farming skill.