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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:13 pm
  

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https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002 ... 1406400516

either it's really big, or has no visible cockpit. part's location is a bit loganish.. but not as well designed as the logan was.


honestly, looks a bit like a low budget transformers toy.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:19 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/341/335/9bf45510d41ff43b7eda22a7dac717b3_large.jpg?1406400516

either it's really big, or has no visible cockpit. part's location is a bit loganish.. but not as well designed as the logan was.

Or it's unmanned... I vaguely recall someone mentioning this was supposed to be a drone, along with the other one that looks just like a Predator drone.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
honestly, looks a bit like a low budget transformers toy.

I'm reliably informed that it bears a very strong resemblance to the IDW Revenge of the Fallen version of the Decepticon "Skystalker".

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Skystalker_(ROTF)

There's also a marked similarity to Macross's VAB-2D that was modified into the FBz-99 Zaubergeran for Macross 7. If this is its inspiration, then it is definitely VERY large. The VAB-2D/FBz-99 was the second-biggest Valkyrie in all of Macross, beaten only by the Konig Monster.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:34 pm
  

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And its a varable design.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:24 am
  

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Yeah, like Seto I thought VAB-2....

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:00 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002 ... 1406400516

either it's really big, or has no visible cockpit. part's location is a bit loganish.. but not as well designed as the logan was.


honestly, looks a bit like a low budget transformers toy.

I disagree about the cockpit. There is what could be a cockpit visible on the top down view, with the red line. It has limited viewing angles, reminiscent of the Beta. Known drone fighters in RT still have a protrusion, with a fixed forward camera with a much more limited viewing angle.

As for it being Logan-ish, I can sort of see it, but sort of don't. The limited angles make it hard to say IMHO. If its supposed to transform, it doesn't follow the Logan since there is no indication that the fuselage area tri-forcates (this brings the legs down), and the wing would have to transform much differently than the Logan.

I almost want to say the unit is derived from something like the Boeing's X-45, Lockheed Martin's RQ-170, or other (RW) flying Wing type vehicle though. The Wing/Wing-glove itself appear to be modeled (at least w/n RT) after ASC's Sylphide (depending on when you see it) and Phantom Fighters with that split sized wing sections going where the outer section leads forward from the sweep on the glove/inner where they meet (not in-line like numerous other examples I could mention).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:41 am
  

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http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vab-2.htm

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:10 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
Yeah, like Seto I thought VAB-2....

Yeah, looking at it up close on my desktop's monitor and armed with an art book, this is definitely a copy of the Macross-5 fleet's VAB-2D and Varauta FBz-99 Zaubergeran. Look at the ventral view, it's a safe bet it even transforms the same way.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/fbz-99g.htm

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:49 am
  

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:07 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Yeah, like Seto I thought VAB-2....

Yeah, looking at it up close on my desktop's monitor and armed with an art book, this is definitely a copy of the Macross-5 fleet's VAB-2D and Varauta FBz-99 Zaubergeran. Look at the ventral view, it's a safe bet it even transforms the same way.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/fbz-99g.htm

I do not dispute that the mecha in question could not have formed the inspiration for the RTA unit (Eagle Eye), but it is not a 100% clone/copy of the Macross Units in question either given the wing designs for all 3 units. Yes they are all "flying wing" type platforms apparently, but they each have their own unique feel to make them different.

The Eagle Eye has that jagged leading edge found on SDC:SC/TRM saga Sylphid Fighter and Phantom Fighter (2E RPG designations), and the Macross units have a smooth flowing leading edge. Then there is the fact that each unit in question has the wing subdivided into noticable different sections (EE =2, VAB-2=3, FBz-99=1). So right here it is not a true clone/copies.

For legal reasons I can't see HG making the Eagle Eye transform the same way as the Macross units in question. They couldn't even use the VF-X-4/YF-4 approach from SDF:M in RRT minature game (or even the older Wildstorm comic), so I don't see them using the Macross approach without enough differences to be protected from legal actions.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:02 pm
  

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When I first saw this, I thought it was a new Haydonite mecha.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:58 pm
  

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S/L - I do not think either of us stated it was a carbon copy clone.....

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:10 pm
  

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SRoss wrote:
When I first saw this, I thought it was a new Haydonite mecha.


Cue 'friendly fire' incident....

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:08 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
S/L - I do not think either of us stated it was a carbon copy clone.....

"this is definitely a copy"-Seto Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:19 pm.

About the only thing I see that is copied is the fact they could all be considered to be "flying wings", that is hardly enough to say they are "definitely a copy".


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:35 am
  

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Look closer. Flying wing with what looks to be a similar undercarriage design/formation.

Considering how much HG tried to avoid any issues with anything Macross, even doing this "inspired by", if it is in fact inspired by the VAB-2, is iffy at best for them.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:18 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
Look closer. Flying wing with what looks to be a similar undercarriage design/formation.

Which can also be shown to have a Logan and Beta vibe to it (inner legs, outer arms, wings attached to arms, low profile nose as compared to the VF-1/6, etc). So it doesn't have to strictly be seen as following the Macross approach. I'm not saying its coincidence either, but the basic layout isn't unique to the Macross designs in question.

jaymz wrote:
Considering how much HG tried to avoid any issues with anything Macross, even doing this "inspired by", if it is in fact inspired by the VAB-2, is iffy at best for them.

I agree HG will make an effort to avoid legal issues with Macross, but there is no escaping the "inspired by" on some level aspect if the people working on it are familiar with the setting IMHO at the generic concept/design stage (that legally they may be able to get away with).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:08 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Which can also be shown to have a Logan and Beta vibe to it (inner legs, outer arms, wings attached to arms, low profile nose as compared to the VF-1/6, etc).

It's a flying wing with a virtually identical undercarriage configuration to the VAB-2/FBz-99... and a fair few other design points in common.


ShadowLogan wrote:
So it doesn't have to strictly be seen as following the Macross approach. I'm not saying its coincidence either, but the basic layout isn't unique to the Macross designs in question.

Considering what we've seen so far, it makes far more sense that it IS "taking pointers" from Macross quite heavily... but for the ??? ship, everything we've seen so far is either "taking pointers" from designs in Macross or Transformers, except for the Takeru, which is drawn from either Macross and Space Battleship Yamato or Macross and Gundam.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:51 am
  

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Seto wrote:
It's a flying wing with a virtually identical undercarriage configuration to the VAB-2/FBz-99... and a fair few other design points in common

That it can qualify as a flying wing I do not dispute, which would influence design choices in certain aspects along with its stealth aspect which would lead to some common aspects as a result of those criteria and not necessarily because it was to be a close copy the VAB-2/FBz-99. However, the undercarriage configuration/layout is also a close match for the VF-8 Logan, and to a lesser extent the VBF-7/9 Beta, with the placement of what we all assume to be the arms and legs (we have to admit we only have the F-mode at this time, as bias in looking at the design might influence how we think it transforms and where parts are located, just look at the Sylphid/Condor debates about how these two units might transform and the lack of concensous there).

I would add that given that the Veritech Drone that looks like a Predator/Reaper UAV, they may be looking at non-Macross/Anime sources for design inspiration. Though it is a close match for Soundwave in one of the newer Transformers cartoons (Prime).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:00 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
However, the undercarriage configuration/layout is also a close match for the VF-8 Logan, and to a lesser extent the VBF-7/9 Beta, [...]

A very loose match at best, you may want to review both designs.

There are two candidate "inspirations" that are too close to ignore... one is Macross 7's VAB-2D/FBz-99, and the other is a Transformers toy.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:24 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I would add that given that the Veritech Drone that looks like a Predator/Reaper UAV, they may be looking at non-Macross/Anime sources for design inspiration. Though it is a close match for Soundwave in one of the newer Transformers cartoons (Prime).


Obligatory: "Soundwave supeiror, Veritech Drone inferior."

Sorry, but a variation of that quote WOULD be coming eventually.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:45 pm
  

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Dairugger XV wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
I would add that given that the Veritech Drone that looks like a Predator/Reaper UAV, they may be looking at non-Macross/Anime sources for design inspiration. Though it is a close match for Soundwave in one of the newer Transformers cartoons (Prime).


Obligatory: "Soundwave supeiror, Veritech Drone inferior."

Sorry, but a variation of that quote WOULD be coming eventually.

Y'know what, I'll +1 that just because I freaking loved that movie when I was a kid.

Took me ages to notice that there were cameos by mobile suits from Zeta Gundam in the Quintisson jail... bits of the Rick Dias, Galbaldy Beta, GM II and Gundam MK-II.

Still, I'm a little worried that every design in this so far except the ??? ship and (arguably) the VF salvaged from Cesar's attempt to reboot Project Valkyrie as an original series after Harmony Gold C&D'd it have been drawing very heavily from other shows.

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Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:36 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
A very loose match at best, you may want to review both designs.

There are two candidate "inspirations" that are too close to ignore... one is Macross 7's VAB-2D/FBz-99, and the other is a Transformers toy.

I have reviewed them. The only thing the Eagle Eye shares that is distinct from the M7 Valks is that they are all basicly flying wings, which isn't enough IMHO to say they are copying Macross7 unless they have a monopoly on transforming flying wings (and TF does have a few so they obviously don't). There are only so many places one can logically put things w/n the given shape/profile. It doesn't take much to see the Logan in the Eagle Eye once you remove the wings and the enclosed tail engine covers of the EE (or morph the wings on the Logan and put a cover over the gap on the tail engines of the Logan). To see the M7 stuff I find I'm doing far more mental gymnastics to make it work. And as I said, until we have examples of it in alt modes, we're all just guessing at how it transforms. And I think we can agree for Legal reasons HG likely is not going to copy TF or M7.

Dairugger XV wrote:
Obligatory: "Soundwave supeiror, Veritech Drone inferior."

Sorry, but a variation of that quote WOULD be coming eventually.


Obligitory reference to Soundwave: No one would follow an uncharasmatic bore like you.

Seto wrote:
Still, I'm a little worried that every design in this so far except the ??? ship and (arguably) the VF salvaged from Cesar's attempt to reboot Project Valkyrie as an original series after Harmony Gold C&D'd it have been drawing very heavily from other shows.
[/quote]
Unless KS funding increases in short order OR they get funding from elsewhere, I don't think there will be much to worry about at this point. I'm not surprised either about them drawing heavily from other shows.

The design asthetics for the two mecha displayed just doesn't feel right for the period either. Take the Drone, it feels very EVA-esque (and ugly IMHO) in Battloid, which is really a dramatic depature from known designs in the period (2009-34/44). The Eagle Eye doesn't feel right either, almost as if it would be more at home around TSC period than Sent. One would think being placed in the Sent. Period we'd see things that blend attributes of the 3 series better, so far that is lacking IMHO.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:49 pm
  

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Heck, I would rather have seen first-gen Alphas then these things.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:30 pm
  

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Arnie100 wrote:
Heck, I would rather have seen first-gen Alphas then these things.


Could be Red Shirt Mecha....make appearance(Cadets: "We're SAVED!"), get blown away next moment(#BLAM# Cadets: "...we're ####ed!").

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:06 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Unless KS funding increases in short order OR they get funding from elsewhere, I don't think there will be much to worry about at this point. I'm not surprised either about them drawing heavily from other shows.

You have a point there... there's little sense in worrying about the lack of originality in the design when they won't be making the show.

Still, I can't help but feel that it's that very profound derivative-ness in the Robotech Academy ships and mecha is one of the things hurting the project. It comes across as very fan fiction-y when every last design looks like the designer took the parts of mecha he liked from other, more popular shows, and simply stuck them together in a fairly haphazard way. It doesn't give the designs any real distinct flavor of their own, and it makes the production feel very amateurish and unpolished. :(



ShadowLogan wrote:
The design asthetics for the two mecha displayed just doesn't feel right for the period either.

And how! What we were promised were designs that would bridge the gap between the Masters Saga's mecha and New Generation's mecha. These are too streamlined to belong to either. The transformable Predator looks like it should belong to the Macross Saga, since the Predator would have been a thing of the past (assuming it were ever even developed) by 2009, let alone 2022-2029. The aesthetic mismatch is also something that applies to that one gunship as well.

The third mecha that was teased that hasn't been shown yet (IIRC)* is a VF, and looks very much like it's trying to be a Macross design rather than anything that might fit between the Alpha and Logan... it looks like a chunky attempt to copy the aesthetics of a VF-0D Phoenix or YF-30 Chronos, or at best they were trying to make a transforming CFA-44 Nosferatu (from Ace Combat). It's simply a reuse of the original VF design that Cesar and co. attempted to develop after Harmony Gold C&D'd them for a Macross Saga fan film though, so it's arguably not even really a Robotech design twice over.


* Yep, still hasn't been shown...

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:06 am
  

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Didn't they say that most if not all the new designs were suppose to be prototyes and such. And if so, wouldn't that make more cense for the way the are design?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:48 am
  

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Alpha 11 wrote:
Didn't they say that most if not all the new designs were suppose to be prototyes and such. And if so, wouldn't that make more cense for the way the are design?

That doesn't address why they don't fit, technologically or aesthetically, with the stuff that's being actively used by the UEDF and UEEF... never mind continuity screwups like accidentally designating two completely different and obviously unrelated fighters as "VF-X-7" or having a frigging transformable MQ-1 Predator when the Predator would've been retired with the introduction of the Ghost prior to 2009 and there would've been no reason to return to such a retro design.

Did'ja see the latest update? The Takeru-class splits apart... because one gun boom flying through space on its lonesome doesn't look silly at all.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:14 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Still, I can't help but feel that it's that very profound derivative-ness in the Robotech Academy ships and mecha is one of the things hurting the project.

I don't think there is a way around the derivativeness. It will always be there to some extent since designs may appear that are based on the RW, and influences by other stories (though this last bit is a bit different than what HG is doing).

TSC/RTA both feel like fan-fiction to me.

Seto wrote:
And how! What we were promised were designs that would bridge the gap between the Masters Saga's mecha and New Generation's mecha.

I could be wrong, but I thought they wanted to bridge all 3 sagas. And it isn't like one couldn't "force" some of the existing designs into that role either.

Seto wrote:
These are too streamlined to belong to either. The transformable Predator looks like it should belong to the Macross Saga, since the Predator would have been a thing of the past (assuming it were ever even developed) by 2009, let alone 2022-2029. The aesthetic mismatch is also something that applies to that one gunship as well.

The Predator design itself dates back to mid-1994 for first flight, and is a derivative of an older GNAT 750 design (first flight 1989). So it may not be a true "Predator/Reaper" derivative in RT, but in fact the older GNAT 750 w/o some rw-history alteration for RT (which can open up a lot of worms).

As we don't have background information on the drone, its possible it dates back to the TMS period. However the Battloid mode asthetics seem way off for the TMS era, or even the TRM/NG eras. The drone preview pic also has text in the bottom left corner pic labeling locations (though you have to really zoom in to read it, I'm not seeing anything like this in the Eagle Eye).

And the Eagle Eye's emphasis on Stealth seems out of place w/the established eras given emphasized "stealth" designs don't appear until late NG early TSC period. (NOTE: I'm not saying Stealth wasn't/couldn't be a factor, but it wasn't an overriding factor in the design that it has to be noted in the name/role description).

Alpha11 wrote:
Didn't they say that most if not all the new designs were suppose to be prototyes and such. And if so, wouldn't that make more cense for the way the are design?

I thought the only prototypes mentioned where the Fold Engines. But no, it wouldn't make sense for the way these are designed to be that much different than known established designs without a very good reason to have them to this extent. And if these are Veritechs, either HG is going to have to redo the numbering convention (again), or these aren't going to "fit" the current sceme as they only really have the VF-2&3 numbers to play with, but I would suspect those would be older TMS era designs given the VF-4 is also a TMS design (that doens't mean they couldn't serve longer than the VF-1).

Seto wrote:
or having a frigging transformable MQ-1 Predator when the Predator would've been retired with the introduction of the Ghost prior to 2009 and there would've been no reason to return to such a retro design.

It is unlikly the design is a Predator relative, but rather a GNAT-750. Given the VF-1 was introduced to be an update to a "retro" design, it isn't out of the question this Drone couldn't follow suit. I'm not sure the Predator (or another relative) would have been retired due to the Ghost by 2009, they fill vastly different missions (one is a fighter, the other is a recon unit with a lightly armed variant). Even a VT version of the Reaper (which is basically what the RTA Drone is) wouldn't necessarily be retired due to the Ghost by 2009 since they could be intended for different missions.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:09 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Alpha 11 wrote:
Didn't they say that most if not all the new designs were suppose to be prototyes and such. And if so, wouldn't that make more cense for the way the are design?

That doesn't address why they don't fit, technologically or aesthetically, with the stuff that's being actively used by the UEDF and UEEF... never mind continuity screwups like accidentally designating two completely different and obviously unrelated fighters as "VF-X-7" or having a frigging transformable MQ-1 Predator when the Predator would've been retired with the introduction of the Ghost prior to 2009 and there would've been no reason to return to such a retro design.

Did'ja see the latest update? The Takeru-class splits apart... because one gun boom flying through space on its lonesome doesn't look silly at all.


Just so everyone is aware, in the Real World, the MQ-1 Predator has already been retired from production, the last one came off the Poway line in 2011. Considering that they have been around since the early 90's they've had a great life. The design shown in the mecha would be more along the lines of the MQ-9 Reaper, which we produce about 24 of those a year.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:32 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I don't think there is a way around the derivativeness. It will always be there to some extent since designs may appear that are based on the RW, and influences by other stories (though this last bit is a bit different than what HG is doing).

Even it it's unavoidable, it doesn't need to be this blatant or this omnipresent... :(



ShadowLogan wrote:
I could be wrong, but I thought they wanted to bridge all 3 sagas. And it isn't like one couldn't "force" some of the existing designs into that role either.

They only promised, in the Kickstarter and their panel, that the show's designs would be transitional ones bridging those used in the Masters Saga and New Generation. Nothing was said about the Macross Saga, as far as I am aware.



ShadowLogan wrote:
As we don't have background information on the drone, its possible it dates back to the TMS period. However the Battloid mode asthetics seem way off for the TMS era, or even the TRM/NG eras.

Their pitch promises these would be designs that bridged the gap between the Masters Saga and New Gen designs... and this definitely doesn't fit that, though it does give us a chronological frame of reference for development (2022-2029).



ShadowLogan wrote:
I thought the only prototypes mentioned where the Fold Engines. But no, it wouldn't make sense for the way these are designed to be that much different than known established designs without a very good reason to have them to this extent.

It was mentioned that the cadets at the academy were going to have to pillage its stockpiles of old and discarded prototypes and so on to defend themselves, so it may in fact apply.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:50 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Even it it's unavoidable, it doesn't need to be this blatant or this omnipresent... :(

No argument from me.

Seto wrote:
Their pitch promises these would be designs that bridged the gap between the Masters Saga and New Gen designs... and this definitely doesn't fit that, though it does give us a chronological frame of reference for development (2022-2029).

Wouldn't the start of that period be before 2022 (like mid 201x's) given that some units supposedly date that far back like the Alpha and Conbat. And if the 2E RPG dates are any indication even more designs pre-date the 2022 idea (I worked out a timeline some time ago).

Seto wrote:
It was mentioned that the cadets at the academy were going to have to pillage its stockpiles of old and discarded prototypes and so on to defend themselves, so it may in fact apply.

Is every base now going to have a depot of prototypes in storage and for R&D? And an extensive one to boot. What would be wrong with having to adapt their training mecha for actual combat instead of playing the "we've got this old prototype stuff in storage" card. Or even simply putting it down as non-prototypes that have been mothballed? That would be a better way of explaining the large numbers they likely are going to use for any design.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:30 pm
  

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To be honest, I think any of us jaded otaku here could look at just about ANY recent mecha design and say 'funny, that looks an awful lot like..."
It's the same thing with me and sci-fi book covers. There have been more than a few book covers that derive from previous works by other artists, and more than a few that have blatantly cut-and-pasted from other sources(or, increasingly, use 3D rendering software designs) without any sign of accreditation). But even in original artwork, I see echoes of other artists and photographers.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:34 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Even it it's unavoidable, it doesn't need to be this blatant or this omnipresent... :(

No argument from me.

Stop doing that... every time we agree I have to check outside and make sure it's not raining blood or frogs or something. :wink: :lol:



ShadowLogan wrote:
Wouldn't the start of that period be before 2022 (like mid 201x's) given that some units supposedly date that far back like the Alpha and Conbat. And if the 2E RPG dates are any indication even more designs pre-date the 2022 idea (I worked out a timeline some time ago).

Well, the timeframe for the establishment of Mars Base is iffy at best, but this raises another issue in the continuity too. Leonard's address in "Dana's Story" indicates that the first graduating class from the new academy was the class of 2029. Unless the UEDF and UEEF also have completely separate academies to train their officers, something is very badly awry here. Since Emerson is supposed to appear in this, that means that the story can't take place any later than 2029, meaning that either the academy's first class was also its last (WTH?!) or that this is another ill-conceived retcon.

As far as the transitional period, the Alpha was developed in the late 2010s, but were not in production until the 2020s, and the Masters Saga mecha were also originally not supposed to be available until that period either (though canon sources do not specify WHEN they appeared, only that they do not appear to exist at until after the emergence of the VF-X-6 at the very least).


ShadowLogan wrote:
Is every base now going to have a depot of prototypes in storage and for R&D? And an extensive one to boot.

No, this is supposedly a unique feature of the Academy... that, according to the series pitch, it serves the military as a training facility, a research and development facility, and a museum of sorts.


ShadowLogan wrote:
What would be wrong with having to adapt their training mecha for actual combat instead of playing the "we've got this old prototype stuff in storage" card.

It smacks of Gundam to me... the "we just happened to have exactly enough prototypes for every overemotional psychic teenager" chestnut. You'd think that they'd be training on much the same craft they'd be fighting with... a trainer with optionally non-lethal or simulated weapons like the VF-1D. (It's quite a shame that Robotech never really evidenced the dedicated training craft that often appear in its primogenitor, Macross. That would add some much-needed realism.)


taalismn wrote:
To be honest, I think any of us jaded otaku here could look at just about ANY recent mecha design and say 'funny, that looks an awful lot like..."

I... don't think that's what it is. The vocal criticism of these designs is surprisingly common, far more so than one would expect. This isn't jaded hobbyists saying "well that looks a bit like", this is people on the entire spectrum from casual to hardcore saying "that's a blatant copy of X". These new designs are not going over well AT ALL, and that bodes even more ill than the pledge total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:22 am
  

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as far as graduating classes go.. the only explanation i can see is that the class in the academy vanishes with the academy, and doesn't get back to earth until after 2029. so Dana's class is the 1st class to actually graduate.. but only by default. presumably a few years was lost between the academy around mars vanishing and the one on earth dana attended opening as well.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:42 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Stop doing that... every time we agree I have to check outside and make sure it's not raining blood or frogs or something

Must take a lot of time to check all the possibilities, especially those dooplegangers and exploring the multi-verse w/o realizing it. ;).

Still this is one area that shouldn't be that much a surprise given how often it comes up and we agree.

Seto wrote:
Well, the timeframe for the establishment of Mars Base is iffy at best, but this raises another issue in the continuity too. Leonard's address in "Dana's Story" indicates that the first graduating class from the new academy was the class of 2029. Unless the UEDF and UEEF also have completely separate academies to train their officers, something is very badly awry here. Since Emerson is supposed to appear in this, that means that the story can't take place any later than 2029, meaning that either the academy's first class was also its last (WTH?!) or that this is another ill-conceived retcon.

Is it possible that Leonard mispoke and was only referencing this particular academy at Monument City? (It isn't like you can't build a new School after the old one becomes unavailable). Issues already exist w/n 85ep since IIRC Col. Wolfe is also connected w/the Academy by Scott. Wolfe also has to predate Dana given his rank/age, time on world, and connection to the Sentinels.

Theoretically a re-establishment of Mars and Lunar Bases could be done in the mid 2010s with assistance from the Zentraedi providing transport for materials and personnel. Inidations are that around 2014 man-kind was already moving out into space (recycled footage from the Masters w/those ASC ships in a later TMS episode). Even Carpenter's ship is said to be 15years old (minimum) when he arrives during the 2RW (which would put it around 2014).

Seto wrote:
No, this is supposedly a unique feature of the Academy... that, according to the series pitch, it serves the military as a training facility, a research and development facility, and a museum of sorts.


This just feels awfully contrived really in a variety of ways. And I thought the SSL/Sent.-OVA Sat. had these roles, so how can it be a unique feature. What I find truely odd is the number of prototypes that just happen to be available. They can't all be simply in storage or museum peices (and not all museum peices are functional).

Seto wrote:
It smacks of Gundam to me... the "we just happened to have exactly enough prototypes for every overemotional psychic teenager" chestnut. You'd think that they'd be training on much the same craft they'd be fighting with... a trainer with optionally non-lethal or simulated weapons like the VF-1D. (It's quite a shame that Robotech never really evidenced the dedicated training craft that often appear in its primogenitor, Macross. That would add some much-needed realism.)

Now that you mention Gundam, it does sound a bit Gundam-esque in that respect.

However with regard to trainers, there should still be pre-cursor trainers of different types that would lead into specific models (like a VF-#). Most likely they would have non-tranformable trainers (vehicle and battloid), and possibly even a dedicated VT trainer before cadets would even lay there hands on the real deal. Pilots don't learn to fly (from the begining) on the F-15 (or insert military fighter/aircraft), they tranisition from other vehicles.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:30 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
as far as graduating classes go.. the only explanation i can see is that the class in the academy vanishes with the academy, and doesn't get back to earth until after 2029. so Dana's class is the 1st class to actually graduate.. but only by default. presumably a few years was lost between the academy around mars vanishing and the one on earth dana attended opening as well.

The chief problem I see with that is that the premise they've put forward suggests that they abandoned the Academy and the moon it's on for the ships that they're using to get back to the Sol system...




ShadowLogan wrote:
Is it possible that Leonard mispoke and was only referencing this particular academy at Monument City? (It isn't like you can't build a new School after the old one becomes unavailable).

True, but the KS pitch strongly implied that the Academy was both THE academy rather than one of several, and also suggested that it has been in existence long enough to also become a museum, which is rather problematic considering how extensive the modification of the moon apparently has been. (This is right up there with the dock in the Farfallas system that the XGP15A2 was kept in in Outlaw Star... some significantly-large asteroid that was completely hollowed out.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
This just feels awfully contrived really in a variety of ways. And I thought the SSL/Sent.-OVA Sat. had these roles, so how can it be a unique feature.

They're playing fast and loose with established continuity again... I'd forgotten about that part.


ShadowLogan wrote:
What I find truely odd is the number of prototypes that just happen to be available. They can't all be simply in storage or museum peices (and not all museum peices are functional).

That's what the pitch says... the moon is part training facility, part research and development base, and part museum. Several of these craft are supposed to be museum pieces or rejected prototypes.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Now that you mention Gundam, it does sound a bit Gundam-esque in that respect.

Yep... bunch of teenagers being forced to fight in prototypes that they're not trained for because their space habitat is under attack? That's a really common Gundam trope, but all things considered I'm suspecting that since there are MULTIPLE prototypes and rejected designs, and the academy is supposed to be lost, that it resonates most strongly with Gundam SEED. (That would make it truly ironic, as China's Astro Plan was ALSO a copy of Macross Frontier and Gundam SEED, and thanks to pranksters at MacrossWorld quite a few Robotech fans mistakenly believed that it was actually the next Robotech series.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
However with regard to trainers, there should still be pre-cursor trainers of different types that would lead into specific models (like a VF-#). Most likely they would have non-tranformable trainers (vehicle and battloid), and possibly even a dedicated VT trainer before cadets would even lay there hands on the real deal.

There's the catch though, there's precedent for two-seat tandem cockpit trainers for the more unique craft out there, and simulators aside one has to wonder why we haven't seen ANY training craft at all... most of the craft in Robotech are dedicated one-seaters without modular cockpits.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:26 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
True, but the KS pitch strongly implied that the Academy was both THE academy rather than one of several, and also suggested that it has been in existence long enough to also become a museum, which is rather problematic considering how extensive the modification of the moon apparently has been. (This is right up there with the dock in the Farfallas system that the XGP15A2 was kept in in Outlaw Star... some significantly-large asteroid that was completely hollowed out.)

Can't comment on Outlaw Star.

"THE" academy might be the one with prestige, but it might not be the only one since its doubtful there is only one academy to train officers for the entire UEDF/UEEF.

As for the build-up several factors to consider:
-when construction began
-when RTA is supposed to take place
-I don't think the facility has to be old to have a museum, though the exhibts are going to be limited unless you can import material or have some state of the art holographics (which we know they have in Sent. OVA and even in TRM saga) on par with Star Trek's holodeck. Actual physical artifacts would need to be imported to some degree unless it is purely R&D discards and such
-do we have any idea on how they actually built the facility? Phobos may not be as hollowed out as you think, the moon itself is pretty big (you'd need Dolza's Base or an RFS to surpass it's size)
-how long would it take them to build such a facility, Earth did build Sara Base in a few years on Mars, and that facility is just as extensive in terms of size.

Seto wrote:
but all things considered I'm suspecting that since there are MULTIPLE prototypes and rejected designs, and the academy is supposed to be lost, that it resonates most strongly with Gundam SEED. (That would make it truly ironic, as China's Astro Plan was ALSO a copy of Macross Frontier and Gundam SEED, and thanks to pranksters at MacrossWorld quite a few Robotech fans mistakenly believed that it was actually the next Robotech series.)

When I heard a moon was getting folded and lost I couldn't help but think of Space: 1999's basic concept.

I remember that about Astro Plan. I didn't really buy it either.

Seto wrote:
There's the catch though, there's precedent for two-seat tandem cockpit trainers for the more unique craft out there, and simulators aside one has to wonder why we haven't seen ANY training craft at all... most of the craft in Robotech are dedicated one-seaters without modular cockpits.

No, what I'm thinking of in terms of trainers is different. While RT can certainly have multi-seat trainer versions for various mecha, and/or rely on simulator I'm thinking of a mecha step (or two) before they even get to the "trainer" version of the Alpha/Logan/AGAC/VF-1.

A Robotech version of the T-6 if you will (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ft/t-6.htm), prior to that the US used the T-37 & T-34.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:37 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Can't comment on Outlaw Star.

More's the pity... that was a FANTASTIC series, and the first collaboration I've been able to find of Junya Ishigaki and Shoji Kawamori, who would later get to work together on Macross Zero and Macross Frontier. There's a lot of good stuff there, I have some of the art work from it via Ishigaki's art book Robo no ISHI.


ShadowLogan wrote:
"THE" academy might be the one with prestige, but it might not be the only one since its doubtful there is only one academy to train officers for the entire UEDF/UEEF.

Depends, really... Leonard's dialog certainly suggests that the population of Earth isn't the massively huge one that the RPG suggests, since it took them 17 years to dredge up a first graduating class. He refers to it with a definite article, the academy, not "that" academy or "the academy in _____".

Perhaps there's a middle ground... if the space-based academy was lost, the only other one might simply become "the" academy.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-do we have any idea on how they actually built the facility? Phobos may not be as hollowed out as you think, the moon itself is pretty big (you'd need Dolza's Base or an RFS to surpass it's size)

The promotional art indicates the presence of a large spaceport on Phobos via what appears to be a very large hexagonal hangar door that has to be ten or so kilometers across unless their version of Phobos is a lot smaller than the genuine article. They have a complex of towers on there that, if the scale isn't really badly off, have to be six or seven kilometers tall (assuming that the view we're presented with represents the minimum known cross-section of that moon). Whoever built the academy did NOT do things small.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-how long would it take them to build such a facility, Earth did build Sara Base in a few years on Mars, and that facility is just as extensive in terms of size.

Sara Base wasn't huge... it was a few kilometers across at most, and much of that was empty space that was filled by separate buildings. This Academy has a spaceport that has to be easily ten kilometers in its total diameter, and towers that are upwards of six kilometers tall unless they've completely misconstrued the size of Phobos. Compared to Sara base, this is MASSIVE.


ShadowLogan wrote:
When I heard a moon was getting folded and lost I couldn't help but think of Space: 1999's basic concept.

The basic concept of a ship full of raw recruits trying to fight its way home through enemy lines left me thinking of the DS9 episode "Valiant", which was the same basic idea just with a Defiant-class ship.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I remember that about Astro Plan. I didn't really buy it either.

Enough people did that Harmony Gold had to make a public statement that they hadn't/weren't going to license Astro Plan. Probably the most successful prank in Robotech history.


ShadowLogan wrote:
No, what I'm thinking of in terms of trainers is different. While RT can certainly have multi-seat trainer versions for various mecha, and/or rely on simulator I'm thinking of a mecha step (or two) before they even get to the "trainer" version of the Alpha/Logan/AGAC/VF-1.

I'd think that's what the simulators are for, or they'd have something like a stripped down and dummied up version of the combat-ready mecha... like the training Labors from Patlabor.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:58 pm
  

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Well, I think we can conclude where the Takeru gets its design from....:puke:


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:21 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Well, I think we can conclude where the Takeru gets its design from....:puke:

Close... though the Meltrandi long-range medium-scale gun destroyer that became the Macross in the DYRL version of Macross's story didn't have the spiky bits. The human-restored version, however...

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:40 pm
  

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Seto, shame on you for forgetting the largest and most complicated part of sera base.. the massive reflex furnace underneath. in the span of a few years they excavated and built a truely massive highly complex powerplant. the surface base by comparison is effectively an afterthought. and if you go by the wildstorm comics, they also built a Grand Cannon for that reflex furnace to power. which would double the effort required.

if they could do that in only a few years before the zents arrived, i suspect their construction ability would only get better once they had a zent factory sat to crib tools from.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:12 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Seto, shame on you for forgetting the largest and most complicated part of sera base.. the massive reflex furnace underneath. in the span of a few years they excavated and built a truely massive highly complex powerplant.

Actually, glitterboy, shame on you for making an unfounded assumption. :wink:

In point of fact, we're never shown the actual reactor at Salla/Sara base in the animation... only a rather low-detail computer graphic of its rough position a kilometer or so underneath the base. Assuming that it was actually to scale with the size of ONLY the actual reactor and not any kind of structure containing it and/or providing it with logistical support (profoundly unlikely) then it's large but not unduly so for a base the size of Salla/Sara.

It's unlikely that the reactor was massive in the Robotech version of events for a variety of other reasons, including the Mars Base One mini-comic's depiction of the reactor as being not terribly large... and something that was built for purely experimental purposes, like the scaled-down prototype Grand Cannon at the base. Since the grand cannon is explicitly established in the series to use the planet's gravitational field for power, it's doubtful that the experimental reflex furnace was meant to drive it.


Certainly their construction ability should get better when they have a Zentradi factory satellite to copy... but there are a lot of "shoulds" that don't pan out where Robotech is concerned, so assumptions are not necessarily always a safe thing.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:28 am
  

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Seto wrote:
The promotional art indicates the presence of a large spaceport on Phobos via what appears to be a very large hexagonal hangar door that has to be ten or so kilometers across unless their version of Phobos is a lot smaller than the genuine article. They have a complex of towers on there that, if the scale isn't really badly off, have to be six or seven kilometers tall (assuming that the view we're presented with represents the minimum known cross-section of that moon). Whoever built the academy did NOT do things small.

I'm aware of the promo art on the KckStr. But that art, at least to me appears to be mostly surface installations though. The Hexagonal door though doesn't mean they hollowed out Phobos, it could be similar to the hangars seen on the Moon faciltiies in TRM and NG, those wouldn't require hollowing out the entire moon (they could have built over a crater, the largest crater on Phobos is 9km in diameter, close enough to your eyeball estimate to be a match IMHO).

Still it would not surprise me if the researchers for RTA failed to do the proper research (it isn't that hard to find out the size of these particular moons) or thought forward if those towers turn out to be that large. Granted given Scotts comment about Venus, and TMS's Planet Pamir, and navigational information in TRM, I have to wonder if they are in fact in our own Solar System at all.

Seto wrote:
Sara Base wasn't huge... it was a few kilometers across at most, and much of that was empty space that was filled by separate buildings. This Academy has a spaceport that has to be easily ten kilometers in its total diameter, and towers that are upwards of six kilometers tall unless they've completely misconstrued the size of Phobos. Compared to Sara base, this is MASSIVE.

Maybe may not. Sara Base does have under ground aspects (which would be more demanding in Mars's higher gravity than either of its moons), and the Grand Cannon Prototype (MB1 comic) that is situated requiring a drive (so there could be other "research sites" not at the main complex that increase the overall size of the facility to more than "downtown" as depicted in the animation. This was all built between 1999-2005, at which point it was abandoned (1999 is clearly to early a date with 2001-3 being more likely). That was also built with very limited interplanetary transport capacity (Orberth we know supported it in 2005). If "Phobos"was built in the mid 2010s, Earth's interplanetary transport capacity would be much larger (Carpenter's Tok was his home in 2014, that ship alone could transport far more material than the Orberth), so they could move the necessary materials and personnel much faster. Retro-fitting Zentraedi ships into those towers would also be possible (carrier is 3km long, more common than the longer Flagship class).

I would also add that unless Sara Base's construction materials have decent radiation shielding properties, they likely did the bulk of their building underground since the buildings aren't buried. Sara Base isn't the only facility we can point to, don't forget about the Moon facilities (like ALUCE) and how extensive they appear to be and they are done heavily underground and are built before 2029. So Phobos's size isn't necessarily an issue, its more a matter of timing.

(Why couldn't they have simply used the Repair Sat. from Sent. OVA, or another similar captured facility, or even just a station as depicted in the stills in NG#1, or would moving a space station be to cliche for them to copy).

Sara Base, in one shot appears with the SDF-1 and is twice as long (roughly) as the SDF-1 in that shot, though shots have the facility as a rectangle/oval. There is also a tower at Sara Base that appears to be taller than the SDF-1 (RT.com puts the height at 312m), but perspective may be fooling us depending on if the SDF-1 is "behind", "infront", or "in-line" with Sara Base structyures, and numerous buidings appear to be a significant portion of the height of the SDF-1 (noticable, most aren't even 1/2, but a lot of them appear to reach up to the underside of the twin booms almost).

Seto wrote:
I'd think that's what the simulators are for, or they'd have something like a stripped down and dummied up version of the combat-ready mecha... like the training Labors from Patlabor.


Simulators though have limits. I can't see hands-on trainers going away, not at the state I'm considering. In stead of having to have a variety of trainers for veritech mecha for raw cadets, they would all start out with a common core unit (or two depending if ground VTs are around yet) before transition to what they use in the field. I'm not saying the unit can not have started as a combat-ready unit design, but it would be one that was repurposed for pure training role exclusively (an F-5 variant is/was used by the US for such purposes, but other countries use the F-5 in a combat role).

As a training center then it would make sense that they would have more "trainer" mecha than prototypes they could use and adapt. Pilots would have to be checked out and trained on the prototypes and such, but with the trainers it would be much quicker and easier since they don't have to do as much custom work or seat of the pants learning. This would give them "new" designs logically to use, without resorting to cliche.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:49 am
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Still it would not surprise me if the researchers for RTA failed to do the proper research (it isn't that hard to find out the size of these particular moons) or thought forward if those towers turn out to be that large.

There are a lot of folks who think they screwed up their research, since the shape they're presenting for Phobos there is way off.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Maybe may not. Sara Base does have under ground aspects (which would be more demanding in Mars's higher gravity than either of its moons), and the Grand Cannon Prototype (MB1 comic) that is situated requiring a drive (so there could be other "research sites" not at the main complex that increase the overall size of the facility to more than "downtown" as depicted in the animation.

Maybes are all well and good, but if we stick to the hard facts of the animation, Salla/Sara base isn't that subterranean. The reactor was buried, but there's no evidence to suggest there were any subterranean facilities unless we count the basements of surface construction. (Misa/Lisa's visit to the reactor control room only took her down to the fourth basement level, which is the lowest one shown on the lift's panel.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
Sara Base, in one shot appears with the SDF-1 and is twice as long (roughly) as the SDF-1 in that shot, though shots have the facility as a rectangle/oval.

In the various views, it does only appear to be roughly 3-4km across, and mostly empty space. The side-on view from the computer diagram suggests that the tower in question is actually shorter than the Macross and that it's perspective playing tricks on us, though it must be admitted that that diagram is likewise not entirely reliable as a computer-abstraction.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Simulators though have limits. I can't see hands-on trainers going away, not at the state I'm considering.

The simulators in Sentinels were apparently advanced enough to let the pilot pull REAL g's and even simulate abnormal flight conditions like a dutch roll, which is pretty damned amazing when you think about it. Still, it's probably not a complete replacement for the real thing.


ShadowLogan wrote:
As a training center then it would make sense that they would have more "trainer" mecha than prototypes they could use and adapt.

True, though that doesn't seem to have panned out for this project...

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:26 am
  

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Seto wrote:
There are a lot of folks who think they screwed up their research, since the shape they're presenting for Phobos there is way off.

That is my impression too. But since when does TBTB do their research, they seem to be all about the rectons.

As for Phobos as depicted, Phobos is an irregular shaped object, so it MIGHT be possible with the right angle and lighting conditions, though I wouldn't want to bet on it. The moon itself looks closer to Deimos in shape, which is IIRC about 1/2 the size of Phobos.

Seto wrote:
Maybes are all well and good, but if we stick to the hard facts of the animation, Salla/Sara base isn't that subterranean. The reactor was buried, but there's no evidence to suggest there were any subterranean facilities unless we count the basements of surface construction. (Misa/Lisa's visit to the reactor control room only took her down to the fourth basement level, which is the lowest one shown on the lift's panel.)

subterranean construction is a given for a variety of reasons:
-plumbing, both water coming in and waste water going out
-environmental control (circulating breathable air, maintaining comfortable temperatures, etc)
-electrical, while wireless power transfer is possible it may be more efficient to use physical lines
-communication, again while wireless is certainly possible, physical lines may still be necessary, allow faster data rates, and be more secure
-maintenance, unless the planers expected to dig up the ground anytime they had to work on the above mentioned infrastructure they would want to include access tunnels that would allow them to work
-radiation shelters, as previously mentioned unless the buildings or base have some type of radiation shield, going underground is going to be done to protect the staff from the radiation solar flares can generate
-inter building transfers, unless the staff are going to suit up to travel to each building, an underground network would have to be in place. This would go double for emergency responders (EMTs, firefighting, etc) where time would be of the essence.

Seto wrote:
In the various views, it does only appear to be roughly 3-4km across, and mostly empty space. The side-on view from the computer diagram suggests that the tower in question is actually shorter than the Macross and that it's perspective playing tricks on us, though it must be admitted that that diagram is likewise not entirely reliable as a computer-abstraction.

All of which makes the 3-4km estimate really sketchy IMHO since we have perspective that can play tricks on us, and computer-abstractions that may not be to scale. Plus you figure that MB1 comic introduced the idea of sub-facilities and the area of the base can be much bigger than the main complex seen in the animation. That it would be mostly empty space is noted, but that is going to be the same for a lot of facilities.

Seto wrote:
The simulators in Sentinels were apparently advanced enough to let the pilot pull REAL g's and even simulate abnormal flight conditions like a dutch roll, which is pretty damned amazing when you think about it. Still, it's probably not a complete replacement for the real thing.

True, but with simulators there is always that back of the mind going "I'm safe", where the real thing you won't have that. Even then I'd say that the Sent. Simulators is a level(s) above the physical trainer level I'm thinking the academy would have.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:30 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
That is my impression too. But since when does TBTB do their research, they seem to be all about the rectons.

They do a so-so job of it when their only aim is to copy the OSM... but this does have the distinct flavor of another attempt to retcon Robotech into something more marketable by making it more Macross-y.


ShadowLogan wrote:
As for Phobos as depicted, Phobos is an irregular shaped object, so it MIGHT be possible with the right angle and lighting conditions, though I wouldn't want to bet on it. The moon itself looks closer to Deimos in shape, which is IIRC about 1/2 the size of Phobos.

Best bet estimate from NASA suggests Phobos is actually about seven times the size of Deimos... though in truth, either of the Martian moons is a symbolically awful place to stick a school. The names of the moons are those of the Greek gods of Horror (Phobos) and Terror (Deimos). Putting the military academy on Mars might've had a nice symbolic resonance, but on Phobos? Horror is the fear/revulsion felt after one sees an especially frightening sight. Could've been worse, since Terror is the fear/revulsion felt before one sees an especially frightening sight. Neither is a great choice, symbolically, though it could work with a little bit of fridge logic since the military academies are basically teaching their students to hate and fear aliens, if you believe that the rank-and-file's attitude towards aliens in Prelude is a product of their education.

Considering the original Macross's story was about the power of communication and acceptance, that makes for a VERY jarring departure indeed.

I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt with my size estimates, however.



ShadowLogan wrote:
subterranean construction is a given for a variety of reasons:

Again, assuming that these concerns apply to a military base built with alien technology is not necessarily a viable school of thought. The generator control room is supposedly one of the deepest parts of the facility on Mars (per the graphic) and even that is only four floors below ground, in a building that protrudes a few stories above ground.



ShadowLogan wrote:
True, but with simulators there is always that back of the mind going "I'm safe", where the real thing you won't have that. Even then I'd say that the Sent. Simulators is a level(s) above the physical trainer level I'm thinking the academy would have.

True, but then you have reactions in combat like Lunk's... where stark terror was evident at their first real encounter with hostiles.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:25 pm
  

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As of 1:00pm EDT, the point is now effectively moot as Harmony Gold has canceled the Kickstarter... probably because failure was a forgone conclusion with them needing 50x the daily average donation level every day for a week to get to the minimum goal.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13 ... demy/posts

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:29 pm
  

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Can't say I am all the surprised....actually more like I figured this would happen.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:10 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
True, but with simulators there is always that back of the mind going "I'm safe", where the real thing you won't have that. Even then I'd say that the Sent. Simulators is a level(s) above the physical trainer level I'm thinking the academy would have.

True, but then you have reactions in combat like Lunk's... where stark terror was evident at their first real encounter with hostiles.

even in robotech, training wouldn't be too much different from today.
pilots would first go through a boot camp and a series of classroom programs to learn their fundementals. pilots would start with basic simulators, then practical flights on real aircraft to learn to fly. then they'd be run through a series of increasingly complex trainer aircraft to build their skills, before moving to a trainer/2 seat version of the final aircraft. only then do they move to solo flights.
once into solo flights, but also during trainer flights, they are run through various tactical scenarios to learn weapon skills and how to apply combat tactics. near the end of their training they are involved in dissimilar combat training, where they fight simulated combats against a variety of aggressor aircraft in small scale and large scale engagements. these aggressor aircraft are selected to simulate the variety of opponents the pilot would be likely to encounter in battle. this not only gives them experiance with combat, but also helps to get them over their initial responses to combat. (which tend towards "buck fever" where they get so excited they forget to think their tactics through in their efforts to beat the enemy, but them going tenative is not unheard of.. either way they let their emotions overpower reason and generally get "shot down" as a result. the training combats are designed to be as real as possible without being actually lethal in order to help the pilots learn to overcome those unthinking responses.)

we actually see a degree of this in Rick's training montage (presumably the SDF-1's training program fast tracked things to get pilots out sooner - otherwise he'd still be in early training when the SDF-1 reached earth)

better simulators can produce better pilots, but aren't a replacement for actual flight time in the real vehicle and environment.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:36 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
As of 1:00pm EDT, the point is now effectively moot as Harmony Gold has canceled the Kickstarter... probably because failure was a forgone conclusion with them needing 50x the daily average donation level every day for a week to get to the minimum goal.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13 ... demy/posts

What a shame. I was really looking forward to it.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:51 pm
  

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Still, it's a pity in its way...would have been nice to have some new canon hardware and characters to play around with...

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