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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:32 am
  

D-Bee

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What would be a good penalty for Mecha converted to fusion or IC engines? Say you wanted to convert a HVT to Fusion? Or a cyclone that is running on Fossil Feul?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:54 pm
  

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Personally I would not give any Mecha Combat penalties.

SLMH is used to power Mecha from the first and 2nd generation. This is Hydrogen in a really condensed form. If a mecha was converted to fusion, then I would have it also be able to convert water to slmh for use.

Cyclones would be a bit rough, as they really can't hold a reactor. In that case a SLMH Fuel Stack or Fuel Cell (same dimensions as a PC Cell in my games) provides power to the cyclone but at 1/2 the duration. So 1 Month, drops down to 2 weeks.

Now the Alpha's do have a fusion backup generator in them. In this case the rules state that they do not transform and are reduced power for the time being. I believe this is because they just don't have enough power to go through the engines. And that is why they need PC. In my games, the Alpha can convert water to SLMH and fill up PC canisters for use, but still only gets about half the duration on a full tank.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:19 pm
  

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Most of the old robotech mechs in The 2nd ed context No longer use protoculture.
Most of the weapons that do MD in Robotech DO use protoculture though. Except for pistols and cannons with explosive ammo.
The Alpha/beta/condor are about the only weapons that do use protoculture.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Kurseteller wrote:
What would be a good penalty for Mecha converted to fusion or IC engines?

Honestly, for Robotech, it's extremely doubtful that any mecha from the series could function on the very limited power (and/or thrust) that internal combustion engines could provide. Most of the fighters are simply too small to have any usable level of operational endurance. Even the VF-1, which is the closest to a real-world modern fighter aircraft design-wise (and has the most capacious fuel tanks) only has enough fuel tank capacity for less than a fifth what a modern fighter carries.

Most fighters and land mecha in the series already run on fusion, except those of the New Generation/RTSC segment, and I would say converting the ones that run on more primitive options like fuel cells to use fusion would probably produce a fairly sizable performance and endurance bonus, rather than a penalty. The RTSC core book has the details for running an Alpha's engines on a backup fusion power system, as mentioned by Tiree. The smallest mecha, like Cyclones, I doubt would have the internal space to carry a reactor at all... let alone enough fuel to drive it.


Kurseteller wrote:
Say you wanted to convert a HVT to Fusion? Or a cyclone that is running on Fossil Feul?

I'm assuming you mean "Hover Tank" when you say "HVT", and those already run on fusion in 2E. The Cyclone... I doubt it could actually operate on fossil fuels. Its "fuel tank" is the slot where the cell goes, and that's roughly the size of a larger can of preserves (enough to drive a weed whip or maybe lawnmower, not enough to run a high-performance motorcycle in offroad conditions for any length of time).

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:48 am
  

D-Bee

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That kinda makes the Protoculture Targeter on the invid basically useless on Older Mecha, unless the energy weapons on them are considered Protoculture.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:04 am
  

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Kurseteller wrote:
That kinda makes the Protoculture Targeter on the invid basically useless on Older Mecha, unless the energy weapons on them are considered Protoculture.

There's an interesting contradiction in the 2nd Edition core book for that. RTSC's core book's description of the protoculture sensor systems were written before Harmony Gold's Robotech creative director decided to have the mecha of the first two sagas be fusion powered... a big change to the lore that first appeared in their 2nd Edition Macross Saga book, so the core book doesn't really cover it.

The older mecha don't use protoculture to power anything, so technically they should be invisible to those protoculture sensors. It's all down to the individual GM's choice tho, really.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:01 am
  

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Knight

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Kurseteller wrote:
What would be a good penalty for Mecha converted to fusion or IC engines? Say you wanted to convert a HVT to Fusion? Or a cyclone that is running on Fossil Feul?

Fusion is basically covered by the books already. The TRM/TMS mecha in either edition have always been connected with fusion.

1E IIRC mentions that ASC mecha are running in one or the other during the Invid Occupation (Veritechs are 1/2 running off fusion, vs all nt-b varieties, Invid Invasion pg77), no performance penalty is mentioned. Given the RDF mecha also use fusion, I don't see why that would not apply to them either.

Now 2E formally has no PC for TRM/TMS platforms for humans, but utilizing fusion using a specific fuel (SLMH) or fuel-cell stack. In the few instances where those are shown to be modified over to Protoculture there is no performance penalty or bonus (based on the fuel). Endurance may change in this (no consistent pattern as I recall, one PC = SLMH end, while another SLMH>PC)

The Alpha/Beta (along w/Condor/BI/Conbat due to standard equipment of these mecha) do have backup fusion systems that operate with penalties, but it should be noted these are backup systems so may not be designed to deliver full performance in the first place.

Basically I would say that performance can be optimized using alternate engine/fuels. However, ICs would only be useful for vehicle mode operation only not robotic modes (and may prevent any transformation). Fuel endurance for ICs would also drop. Fusion in 2E seems to be geared toward specialized fuel (SLMH), and less dense forms of hydrogen may substitute but endurance will suffer.

Now a straight engine conversion may or may not protect the mecha from Protoculture sensors. Early generation mecha may still have active PC signatures from a long life PC component (in the show it is mentioned of techs installing Protoculture chips into circuit boards), but not the engine itself. If that is the case it would require a larger effort to avoid PC detection (Invid do have other sensors, so aren't completely blind). This is one way to take the 2E RPG's statement about Invid still being able to detect earlier generation mecha (even w/o conversion of their main power systems).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:44 pm
  

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the easiest penalty for fusion conversion: no more autododges Veritechs in 2e get them, although not alphas.
the REF swaps their mecha to use protoculture cause they can not spare the fuel.
... although this makes no sense as SLH fuel is more plentiful in space then on earth.... but for earthbound characters, PC is more plentiful.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:24 pm
  

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Honestly, either ignore the use of fusion for everything, or convert the Invid PC sensitivity to a more generalized awareness of power usage instead, sort of like the OSM (though not exactly).

Perhaps they simply naturally are attuned to power systems in some way, and the visual representation looks like thermal. Then, any sufficiently powerful enough source will draw their immediate attention, and possibly their ire. Where to draw the line is problematic, since I believe the Gallant pistol doesn't draw their attention, but the rifle being activated does.

The second methods removes anything remotely like immunity to Invid targeting entirely, unless the target has a Shadow Field. Then it doesn't matter what the source of the energy emanation is, that radiant energy the Invid sense is shunted into a dimension they can't detect. So Valkyrie to Alpha, ALL mecha are detected, all provide the Invid with a bonus to strike, and very, very few sources of power won;t get their attention, including such things as fission plants, fusion power systems, hydro-electric, thermal, whatever. As soon as it is made into something along the lines of electrical power, the Invid become aware of its presence and react accordingly.

Its up to the GM to determine what power sources won't draw such attention, such as 2-Stroke engines (really small bikes and lawnmowers basically), water wheel and modest wind turbines, the sort of stuff you don't equate with high power, or in this case, perhaps MDC levels of energy.

This way, converting a given "thing" from one power source to another doesn't really matter. All you have to do is ensure you are producing sufficient but not excessive power for the given system. enough to run, but not more than its design parameters can sustain. Then you decide who much endurance a given source provides. This also allows some fun but silly concepts, such as a hydro electric of even nuclear fission based power source, and some really thick, really long, and potentially heavy power cables, as well as reserve power packs and dramatic countdown timers ala Neo-Genesis Evangelion...

In fact I might even have a new entry for the Franken-Mecha thread...


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:56 am
  

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Gryphon wrote:
Honestly, either ignore the use of fusion for everything, or convert the Invid PC sensitivity to a more generalized awareness of power usage instead, sort of like the OSM (though not exactly).

Perhaps they simply naturally are attuned to power systems in some way, and the visual representation looks like thermal. Then, any sufficiently powerful enough source will draw their immediate attention, and possibly their ire. Where to draw the line is problematic, since I believe the Gallant pistol doesn't draw their attention, but the rifle being activated does.

The second methods removes anything remotely like immunity to Invid targeting entirely, unless the target has a Shadow Field. Then it doesn't matter what the source of the energy emanation is, that radiant energy the Invid sense is shunted into a dimension they can't detect. So Valkyrie to Alpha, ALL mecha are detected, all provide the Invid with a bonus to strike, and very, very few sources of power won;t get their attention, including such things as fission plants, fusion power systems, hydro-electric, thermal, whatever. As soon as it is made into something along the lines of electrical power, the Invid become aware of its presence and react accordingly.

Its up to the GM to determine what power sources won't draw such attention, such as 2-Stroke engines (really small bikes and lawnmowers basically), water wheel and modest wind turbines, the sort of stuff you don't equate with high power, or in this case, perhaps MDC levels of energy.

This way, converting a given "thing" from one power source to another doesn't really matter. All you have to do is ensure you are producing sufficient but not excessive power for the given system. enough to run, but not more than its design parameters can sustain. Then you decide who much endurance a given source provides. This also allows some fun but silly concepts, such as a hydro electric of even nuclear fission based power source, and some really thick, really long, and potentially heavy power cables, as well as reserve power packs and dramatic countdown timers ala Neo-Genesis Evangelion...

In fact I might even have a new entry for the Franken-Mecha thread...


i have converted the invid to targeting nuclear level reactions, which fusion and protoculture do emit, so it gives things like gas tanks in cyclones a reason to exist.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:41 am
  

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Gryphon wrote:
Honestly, either ignore the use of fusion for everything, or convert the Invid PC sensitivity to a more generalized awareness of power usage instead, sort of like the OSM (though not exactly).

Eh... to be honest, the Inbit of the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA only seemed to detect high-density HBT power sources or large-scale power generation. They didn't notice or care about things like body heat, conventional engines, the earlier models of laser weaponry used prior to the 2nd Earth Recapture operation, etc. Even then, as the briefing delivered by Shinobu Takeuchi (RT: Sue Graham) near the end of the series revealed, the reason the Inbit were able to spot the HBT fuel cells in their active state was because there'd never been a need to suppress the harmless emissions of active type-3 HBT. A few quick design changes were all that was necessary to totally block those emissions.

Since the fusion power systems ALREADY incorporate shielding to prevent the (rather less pleasant) effects of their power generation from having adverse effects on the operators or bystanders, they should be invisible to the Inbit/Invid.


Gryphon wrote:
Its up to the GM to determine what power sources won't draw such attention, such as 2-Stroke engines (really small bikes and lawnmowers basically), water wheel and modest wind turbines, the sort of stuff you don't equate with high power, or in this case, perhaps MDC levels of energy.

In the series, the Invid only seem to home in on the high-density "protoculture" power systems (when they're active) and high-output, electromagnetically-live generator systems like a hydroelectric dam. I think small engines are probably in the clear there. Curiously, though the RPG asserts that cars and such are also protoculture-powered, the Invid only seem to home in on combat units... possibly because of higher-output generation?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:29 am
  

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I think the claim that cars were PC powered derived from the Denver shopping spree where we see that they were literally stocking PC canisters (the OSM HBT) on store shelves, and they were trying to accommodate that.

which honestly, if Earth had figured out how to take existing PC supplies and stretch them out, or somehow still had PC production, wouldn't have been an issue really. But as we all know, that isn't what is being inferred here, which is part of the classic Robotech conundrum. I would even go so far as to say that what Scott and Co had were actually SLMH canisters, and that the two are largely interchangeable save for superior PC endurance...except that makes no sense either, and it infers that you can toss SLMH on a shelf for over a decade! (2031-2044, 13 years!)

Either way, the main difference between a PC cell, PC reactor, Fusion reactor, SLMH powered unit, or most other things should be endurance, not combat bonuses, since PC no longer has anything at all to do with controlling the mecha. (Which annoys me to no end really, but that is neither here nor there.) I would say that fission powered units do suffer some sort of penalty (beyond being walking radiation hazards, ala Neo Genesis Evangelions Jet Alone), and other potential sources, such as the decanonized Sekiton from the Sentinels (Garuda of Karberra, I have forgotten this one) would also be less capable in comparison. In fact, I would move non-SLMH based fusion down to that status too, come to think of it.

So, SLMH and PC offer book bonuses, with better endurance for PC. Straight Hydrogen based Fusion gets maybe a -1 penalty, and maybe a lost attack, and even worse endurance. Fission gets "great" endurance, but is "contra-indicated" for a variety of reasons, and also incurs somewhat sharper penalties. It may generate the needed power, but it takes time to convert it to a useful amount of current, and fission plants that size are finicky in nature.

That's just a random stab at the issue really. Hey Seto, did Inbit detect Gallant pistols or not, I can't seem to recall now what Rand was holding in that tree.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:27 am
  

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Knight

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Gryphon wrote:
I think the claim that cars were PC powered derived from the Denver shopping spree where we see that they were literally stocking PC canisters (the OSM HBT) on store shelves, and they were trying to accommodate that.

Possibly... or they were trying to make it w bit easier for PCs to find fuel.


Gryphon wrote:
Hey Seto, did Inbit detect Gallant pistols or not, I can't seem to recall now what Rand was holding in that tree.

Only when the rifle adapter was connected... probably because there's a lot more HBT in that.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:50 am
  

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Quote:
Honestly, either ignore the use of fusion for everything, or convert the Invid PC sensitivity to a more generalized awareness of power usage instead, sort of like the OSM (though not exactly).

Well the Invid do detect Radio Waves and can even back track them ("Metamorphosis", Scott's signal controlling the 2 boats is back tracked to his location). And that means they can do the same with Radar (radio emission).

Quote:
Since the fusion power systems ALREADY incorporate shielding to prevent the (rather less pleasant) effects of their power generation from having adverse effects on the operators or bystanders, they should be invisible to the Inbit/Invid.

That really depends on what the Invid/Inbit are actually detecting. In RT it is never really explained, and only comes up when associated with PC (though to be honest, alternate fuels aren't mentioned as being in play either).

Quote:
I think the claim that cars were PC powered derived from the Denver shopping spree where we see that they were literally stocking PC canisters (the OSM HBT) on store shelves, and they were trying to accommodate that.

While we see a cart filled with PC Canisters, it is possible they got those cells from somewhere else and put them into the carts for ease of transport. There are no shots inside the store in question that show PC canisters on the shelf, it is assumed though.

I don't think it is so much Denver, as Norristown (Cola driver had PC rations, place did distribute PC), Trench Town (Red Snake offering to sell PC) indicate clearly that civilians where using PC as a fuel source. Weather that was due to Invid involvement as a means of control (providing people with energy source as long as they behave) or pre-invasion status really isn't clear given the time span involved.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:54 am
  

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I use 'PC Chips' as a source of what Invid sense (as electricity passes through the chip, it creates a biorythm). This allows me to wrap my head around why the Invid can sense a Gallant Rifle (would the clip be liquid? - makes no sense). It also makes Macross era and Masters era mecha be seen by Invid without too much handwavium. PC-Chips are also present in RT via dialogue.

I also have SLMH as a low grade PC Fuel mix. PC in liquid form can provide twice as much endurance for Earthbound Mecha than it's SLMH counterpart. I also have Zentraedi era, Masters era, and Invid era mecha using PC Canisters. Having the PC Canisters for Zentraedi like a battery for a watch. It also provides PC Canisters as a jumping off point as to why: Earth had them before the UEEF left (as per Denver episode). It also provides reasoning why the Invid would stockpile these canisters and give them to civilians. Not to mention why Scott stated that Hunter expected them to do guerrilla warfare and take equipment/pc-canisters from the Invid.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:16 pm
  

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Tiree wrote:
I use 'PC Chips' as a source of what Invid sense (as electricity passes through the chip, it creates a biorythm). This allows me to wrap my head around why the Invid can sense a Gallant Rifle (would the clip be liquid? - makes no sense). [...]

If it were just "protoculture chips" in the workings of the weapon, the Invid would sense the Gallant whenever it was off safety (turned on)... instead of just when the rifle adapter is attached. The original source material had the Gallant/H90 laser hound powered by a magazine of HBT-based disposable "energy cartridges" that were good for six shots apiece. I don't see why the Robotech version wouldn't work the same way, just with protoculture substituted for HBT as the charge medium in each cartridge. The smaller eight-cartridge magazine in the pistol's front grip is below the threshold of what the Invid detect as a threat, while the much larger magazine in the rifle stock (six times the ammo) would be over it while the cartridges were "on".

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:18 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tiree wrote:
I use 'PC Chips' as a source of what Invid sense (as electricity passes through the chip, it creates a biorythm). This allows me to wrap my head around why the Invid can sense a Gallant Rifle (would the clip be liquid? - makes no sense). [...]

If it were just "protoculture chips" in the workings of the weapon, the Invid would sense the Gallant whenever it was off safety (turned on)... instead of just when the rifle adapter is attached. The original source material had the Gallant/H90 laser hound powered by a magazine of HBT-based disposable "energy cartridges" that were good for six shots apiece. I don't see why the Robotech version wouldn't work the same way, just with protoculture substituted for HBT as the charge medium in each cartridge. The smaller eight-cartridge magazine in the pistol's front grip is below the threshold of what the Invid detect as a threat, while the much larger magazine in the rifle stock (six times the ammo) would be over it while the cartridges were "on".

As I said - I can't wrap my head around a liquid or gaseous ammo.

By having it use a PC Chip and electrical power go through it. You can use a small source of energy and it won't create nearly as much of a bio-energy. A higher level of energy (Rifle stock), the bio-energy should be more visible.

I kind of picture it as power going through a quartz crystal watch.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:28 am
  

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Tiree wrote:
As I said - I can't wrap my head around a liquid or gaseous ammo.

Liquid metal batteries have been a thing since World War II, and your garden variety electrolytic capacitor has a liquid that's used as a charge-storage medium. Plenty of variations on fuel cell technology use liquid electrolytes as well. All that those cartridges are are miniature versions of the same fuel cells that power the vehicles. The liquid/gaseous contents of the cell aren't the ammo, it's the charge drawn from the cell that is. They're essentially like disposable batteries.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:14 pm
  

D-Bee

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I believe I'm going with a 1/2 penalty, rounding down and a minus 2 to all auto dodges. Also 50-80% of Range and/Ammo Everything will have PC enhanced, that are mecha or Energy weapon .


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:14 pm
  

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Fusion powered mecha wouldn't suffer any penalties other then flight time. Given that finding the SDF-3 would be the space equivalent of finding one specific grain of sand along the entire coastline of North America (ie. really, really, really hard), especially since it fell into a black hole, I would switch my units over to fusion power and start up SLMH production with the remnants of the Southern Cross in the Mediterranean. The Invid are gone, and the Robotech masters ship on earth goes el poofo, after realizing they don't have enough protoculture to run the hull. Whatever units are left in Sentinels space use the Kabarran ore or fusion power to create new ships/colonize worlds, and in the mean time, your search vessels stop going after the SDF-3 when you run out of reflex furnaces needed to run space folds. Or the Haydonites eliminate the Sentinels. Humanity becomes locked on Earth and uses non-FTL slow boat colonization along with the Zents/Tirolians to expand, after much time and effort is spent purging the planet of the Genesis pits. Invid Genetic experiments breed true along with half-human/Invid/Zentraedi/Tirolian clone hybrids, and the entire race advances. At some point, they discover a method to power space folds via whatever method the Haydonites use (if they're that anti-Protoculture, then you should be able to mechanically space fold without Protoculture based Reflex furnaces), and expand farther. Or the human race advances enough to have the teleportation powers of the Regess embodied in select individuals, and they figure out how to open space folds via psychic power.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:30 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tiree wrote:
As I said - I can't wrap my head around a liquid or gaseous ammo.

Liquid metal batteries have been a thing since World War II, and your garden variety electrolytic capacitor has a liquid that's used as a charge-storage medium. Plenty of variations on fuel cell technology use liquid electrolytes as well. All that those cartridges are are miniature versions of the same fuel cells that power the vehicles. The liquid/gaseous contents of the cell aren't the ammo, it's the charge drawn from the cell that is. They're essentially like disposable batteries.

and there are systems today that are mini-generators that draw off a portable fuel tank.. there are actually plans to build such systems for cellphones, now that they can fit them onto single computer chips at their smallest. though those are still prototype only.

so i have no problem seeing the 'magazines' of a gallant as removable protoculture fuel tanks feeding an onboard generator in the gun.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:16 am
  

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Personally I would say the only penalty would be run time and that is about it. Especially considering the VF-1 as fusion has higher performance values than the Alpha on PC.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:26 pm
  

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Other than speed, the VF-1s superior performance boils down to its fly by light control systems, which should be a standard to pretty much and high performance vehicle (there are even formula one racers being designed to use this concept) including battloids, destroids, power suits, variable mecha, air breathing fighters, aerospace fighters, and most everything up to super capital class ships.

Basically, the VF-1 isn't all that much better than an Alpha performance wise, its just faster and carries fewer internal weapon systems to carry dramatically heavier hardpoint firepower instead. The Valkyrie retains stand off firepower, while the Alpha (over-) specializes in close range slugging matches instead. So there isn't any reason to penalize non-PC mecha over PC mecha, not even fission powered models really. So long as sufficient power is present, you get what performance levels you design to, the difference is endurance, with fission having the best (with huge issues added in), and then PC reactor, fusion reactor, PC Cell, and SLMH tanks in decreasing order. I am not entirely sure where PC Slug would fall, likely above either PC Cell and SLMH Tank, but below fusion reactor.

In the end, if you have concerns about a given design having "insufficient" power at hand, then don't let it fly, limit its booster assisted leaping and space maneuvering options, don't mount energy weapons, and avoid "high" powered systems like enhanced sensors and long range radar arrays. Otherwise, it should all work out more or less the same really.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:55 pm
  

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Knight

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Gryphon wrote:
Other than speed, the VF-1s superior performance boils down to its fly by light control systems, which should be a standard to pretty much and high performance vehicle [...]

Um... no. Put simply, the VF-1 Valkyrie's superior performance owes very little to its fly-by-light controls. What sets that fighter apart in its flight performance is that its design incorporates a host of features designed to increase both its speed and agility that are simply not present on later designs. This is, by in large, a result of its designer having a sound grip on the practical aspects of military aviation. For instance, the VF-1 has the largest wing-area and best aerodynamics of any VF in Robotech. It boasts the most powerful engines, by a significant margin, coupled with the second lightest mass out of the entire VF class... which naturally results in the best thrust-to-weight ratio in Robotech. It has the added benefit of being the only VF with thrust-vectoring engine nozzles, and the only one that leverages boundary layer suction for reducing drag and enhancing flight control. It also boasts the most capacious fuel tanks of any VF in Robotech, again by an enormous margin, and has the largest collection of flight performance-enhancing add-ons like conformal tanks and FAST pack boosters.

... and that's just the areas of superiority related to its flight performance. Don't even get me started on the rest.


Gryphon wrote:
Basically, the VF-1 isn't all that much better than an Alpha performance wise, its just faster and carries fewer internal weapon systems to carry dramatically heavier hardpoint firepower instead. [...]

Er... as the above illustrates, the VF-1 is substantially better as a fighter aircraft than the Alpha. True, it doesn't go in for internal weaponry, but it preserves its exceptional operational versatility by not doing so. The Alpha, instead, suffers from crippling overspecialization as a result of fully internalizing its armament in such a small airframe, and cannot operate as an interceptor or bomber or any other role besides a close-range dogfighter... a role in which its lack of concessions to agility make it understandably inferior to the VF-1 anyway. By keeping its armaments external, the VF-1 can carry weapons with greater range, superior destructive potential, and unsurpassed versatility.

Were it not for the Alpha's extremely limited fuel tanks, one would almost expect a switch to fusion to improve the plane's overall performance. It'd be eliminating a degree of complexity in the engine systems, reducing power conversion losses in the engines by reducing the number of conversions from two to zero, and eliminating the need for a second, separate fuel supply for space flight.


Gryphon wrote:
[...] you get what performance levels you design to, the difference is endurance, with fission having the best (with huge issues added in), and then PC reactor, fusion reactor, PC Cell, and SLMH tanks in decreasing order. [...]

You do realize that SLMH is the fuel for a fusion reactor, right?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:57 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Plus the VF-1 has one very important feature the Alpha lacks: It looks cool therefore it goes faster. It's anime logic at its finest.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:12 pm
  

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Knight

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Lost Seraph wrote:
Plus the VF-1 has one very important feature the Alpha lacks: It looks cool therefore it goes faster. It's anime logic at its finest.

No no no... the rule is "If it's painted red, then it goes faster". Everybody knows that. Even the Orks. :lol:

(The VF-1's performance is better for sound, realistic, entirely practical reasons... the Alpha's heavier, as aerodynamic as a brick, has engines that are far less powerful, less wing area, no thrust vectoring, BLCS, minimal control surfaces, etc.)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:50 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Yah, but that doesn't matter. The Alpha doesn't look as cool as most of the Veritechs, so it should be a blahaverage plane. Which it is. The Beta makes no bones about looking cool, it just is cool due to the firepower and missile spam abilities, plus the flight speed. Much like the P-47 over the Spitfire. One looks cool, the other doesn't but they're both spectacular aircraft. The Alpha is the middle child that no one liked to play with because he had a prettier old sibling and a more powerful younger sibling.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:36 pm
  

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Knight

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Lost Seraph wrote:
Yah, but that doesn't matter. The Alpha doesn't look as cool as most of the Veritechs, so it should be a blahaverage plane. Which it is. [...]

Eh... in truth, the Alpha's lower specs have nothing to do with it being less cool-looking than its predecessor(s). It's simply the end result of Harmony Gold adopting the OSM spec for Robotech, in a well-intentioned effort to ensure the official Robotech stats matched the animation as closely as possible. The Alpha's specs are lower because that's where that design's specs were set by its original creators, because their setting was much less technologically advanced than that of Macross and the design was not really meant to be a fighter as much as it was a delivery system for the armo-soldier configuration (and, narratively, the titular MOSPEADA). It certainly wasn't designed to be a space fighter either.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:27 am
  

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Champion

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*Whistles...*

*Points at RPG books...*

"Stay on target here chief!"

Seriously, what you say is entirely true in the OSM, and IRL, since the prosper designing the Macross gear, as you noted, has a firmer grasp of the fundamentals. However, statistically, the actual bonuses a VF-1 has aren't really superior to an Alpha in the RPG, once the fly by light system is removed form the equation. And it should be, since ALL of the stuff I listed previously would make use of this technology.

And since the OSM is stand alone comparatively, and Robotech laces three settings together, there will, and has to be, a shift in the reality represented in each OSM donor universe to make it fit within the whole. Thus, while a VF-1 (especially later iterations) form Macross literally rockets into astounding capabilities, in Robotech it ceases to be the star of the show after Rick and Lisa hug, and the next generation of gear steps up. That gear, while inferior within the comparative donor universes, is supposed to be at least moderately a step up in some way or another.

The RPG takes that route too. Some MDC increases, superior firepower (potentially shorter ranged yes), energy weapons in the fore, supposed miniaturization processes being perfected, that sort of thing. So while a Valkyrie is still faster, it isn't as superior to an Alpha in the Robotech setting as you would think really, and it certainly isn't nearly so stunningly superior in the RPG.

So while Macross might have gotten it more "right", Robotech can't really openly acknowledge that rightness as being so massively overweening, or things make even less sense than they do already. Imagine for a moment if even half of the advances that went into the VF-1 in the OSM were present in the Robotech setting. Now imagine how anything from Masters and Invasion utterly fails to even come close to that level of performance. Its like trying to compare a Silent Eagle to Sabers and such. There would be literally no reason to have ever fielded them, not even economics or politics.

(True story brau, our GM once had an After the Bomb fighter show up that was essentially an F-86 Saber with half a dozen pulse lasers more powerful than anything we could hope to field, and a nineteen round multiple warhead smart super missile that was able to overwhelm an Alpha or RCBs ability to defend itself! Utterly ridiculous, but boy did it scare the crap out of our complacent rear ends!)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:39 am
  

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Knight

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Gryphon wrote:
*Points at RPG books...*

"Stay on target here chief!"

Hehe... that's my line, mac. Go back and look at those stats yourself.


Gryphon wrote:
Seriously, what you say is entirely true in the OSM, and IRL, [...]

... and the RPG. Look, if you will, at the way the VF-1's greater speed is listed, its greater agility confers autododge bonuses the Alpha doesn't get, the way the tactical data link on the VF-1 confers additional bonuses that the Alpha doesn't get, that the only area in which the sensors improve is night vision, the Alpha has no magic hands or distress beacon... I could go on... and on... and on. So I will.


Gryphon wrote:
However, statistically, the actual bonuses a VF-1 has aren't really superior to an Alpha in the RPG, once the fly by light system is removed form the equation.

Er... you do realize the fly-by-wire system there, as described on pg4, confers no bonuses... only penalties, right?


Gryphon wrote:
And since the OSM is stand alone comparatively,

In the sense that a paper plagiarized almost word for word is only technically a different paper from the original...


Gryphon wrote:
Thus, while a VF-1 (especially later iterations) form Macross literally rockets into astounding capabilities,

Um... where is THIS coming from?


Gryphon wrote:
in Robotech it ceases to be the star of the show after Rick and Lisa hug,

Only recently... the old stuff kept the VF-1 in service clear thru to the events that Prelude establishes are in 2043.


Gryphon wrote:
That gear, while inferior within the comparative donor universes, is supposed to be at least moderately a step up in some way or another.

The RPG takes that route too.

You'd think it should be that way, but both in canon and the RPG, stasis or deterioration is what actually happens... or did you miss that fighters had zero improvement in radar and most other sensors through almost forty years in the RPG?


Gryphon wrote:
Some MDC increases, superior firepower

Um... you may wanna reread a few sections... or books...

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:14 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
Only recently... the old stuff kept the VF-1 in service clear thru to the events that Prelude establishes are in 2043.

Not exactly. Some of the old stuff followed the Early Return model, placing "Prelude" in ~2030-ish. Not sure about the comics, but the novels (which is old stuff) definatly put it around 2030 (and due to 5year fold issue, it is 2025 for them essentially).

Seto wrote:
. Look, if you will, at the way the VF-1's greater speed is listed, its greater agility confers autododge bonuses the Alpha doesn't get, the way the tactical data link on the VF-1 confers additional bonuses that the Alpha doesn't get, that the only area in which the sensors improve is night vision, the Alpha has no magic hands or distress beacon... I could go on... and on... and on. So I will.

Some of the Alpha short comings could be the result of being the 1st book, with the other books being creep even though they are older designs. That explains why ASC also gets the FbW system, but NG doesn't. As for the raw speed, that's lifted from RT.com, and one can also see that speed is emphasized more for the alt-modes for later VFs compared to the VF-1 (though they should have revised those RT.com numbers).

Magic Hands really aren't all that used though in RT, even by the VF-1 by the animation (Ep2-3). Their loss would hardly be noticed on later mecha. Then again they could be present, but no situation presented itself calling for their use. Look at the Alpha in TSC, it now has the capsule system like the VF-1. So it is possible old style features are still present, they just aren't noted or used very often.

Alpha does have a Distress beacon (#7 on avionics/features, pg 99 Manga Size, VF-1 is #13 on its list).

The FbW system only grants Auto-Dodge bonus in fighter mode (flying) for the VF-1, AGAC, and Logan. Mecha Combat Elite skills raise the AGAC and Logan AD bonuses, but not the VF-1. Total AD total bonuses go from best to worst: Logan/VF-1/AGAC. Any other AD bonuses aren't going to be standard (not everyone takes HTH: Commando, or has PP bonuses that would apply). A later printing of TSC may address the FbW system issue.

Seto wrote:
Gryphon wrote:
However, statistically, the actual bonuses a VF-1 has aren't really superior to an Alpha in the RPG, once the fly by light system is removed form the equation.
Er... you do realize the fly-by-wire system there, as described on pg4, confers no bonuses... only penalties, right?

MCE at level 15 an Alpha is EQUAL or GREATER than a VF-1 MCE at level 15. Alpha gets +2/+4 (ground/flying) dodge bonus, VF-1 only a flat +2, Alpha has better roll/disarm/pull bonuses. If the Alpha is Shadow or Z, additional bonuses are in play, but then so does the VF-1 if using add-ons. The static bonuses for gun use are superior on the Alpha (+3/+2) over the VF-1 (+1 when available), missile bonus isn't noted (VF-1 gets +5 for use of HARM, but that's hardly typical).

It's only the introduction of the FBW and IFF/C3 that the VF-1 gets better than an Alpha in relevant areas. And the Alpha does have an IFF/C3 (H model), which again is equal or superior to the VF-1 model. That makes the deceiding factor the FBW (and it's unlikly the Alpha doesn't have a FBW system, though as both the AGAC and Logan show, FBW bonuses can change).

Seto wrote:
You'd think it should be that way, but both in canon and the RPG, stasis or deterioration is what actually happens... or did you miss that fighters had zero improvement in radar and most other sensors through almost forty years in the RPG?

While performance has certainly not improved, the size of those sensors likely has. The Logan has the same basic radar stats as the VF-1, but is basically the size of the VF-1's leg (not even that) in length (minus wings, it is just short of the VF-1's width w/o wings). The Alpha and AGAC are bigger than a Logan, but they are also smaller than the VF-1. Apature size on the Alpha may be the same on the VF-1, but the systems itself may have shrunk in size indicating progress not deterioration.

Seto wrote:
Gryphon wrote:
Um... you may wanna reread a few sections... or books...

You may want to review the books yourself as the stock RAW numbers really put the firepower squarely in the NG category unless you use exotic VF-1 configs (heavy missiles, add-ons). And this doesn't count the unlimited payload weapons or gravity bombs. Range of said firepower from missiles favors the VF-1 more, though guns are more even.

Stock load (RAW) total MDC not counting unlimited weapons:
VF-1A/D/J/S
06,600 MDC (12 MRM & Gu-11, subing mini missiles doesn't change damage, use of LRMs does)
15,400 MDC (FAST-Pack, GU-11, plus 8 heavy missiles)
11,400 MDC (GBP-1S, GU-11)

VFA-6
08,320 MDC (60 SRM, 8 Mini, EU gunpod) H/I/Z
08,400 MDC (60 SRM, EU gunpod) X/S

VFB-9 (note the Beta's unlimited guns are far more powerful than either the VF-1 or VFA-6)
06,720 MDC (internal missiles only, not counting bomb bay)
10,860 MDC (wings with MRM and internal missiles only, not counting bomb bay)

VF-8 (note the unlimited guns are far more powerful than the VF-1 or VFA-6)
02,400 (just the gunpod)
03,360 (gunpod, mini-missile load)

VFH-10 (unlimited gun more potent than VF-1 or VFA-6, missile load not standardized so I did not cover)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:55 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Only recently... the old stuff kept the VF-1 in service clear thru to the events that Prelude establishes are in 2043.

Not exactly. Some of the old stuff followed the Early Return model, placing "Prelude" in ~2030-ish. [...]

Read what I wrote again, chief... you're barking up a nonexistent tree.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Some of the Alpha short comings could be the result of being the 1st book, with the other books being creep even though they are older designs.

Barring the occasional obvious failure of research or math, which stand out well enough on their own, it appears to be just what we'd expect... a direct representation of the VF-1 as the better fighter, per the OSM and official stats.


ShadowLogan wrote:
While performance has certainly not improved, the size of those sensors likely has.

Not really, no... they just spread out over a greater area on the Alpha. The VF-1's head-internal secondary radar moved outboard to a separate sensor pod, and the coaxial weapon mount was deleted entirely, leaving just the camera systems behind.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Apature size on the Alpha may be the same on the VF-1, but the systems itself may have shrunk in size indicating progress not deterioration.

"May have" isn't the same as "has". Examination of the official art for both indicates that the correct answer is "hasn't"... the Alpha's radar is actually comparably sized to the VF-1's.


ShadowLogan wrote:
You may want to review the books yourself as the stock RAW numbers really put the firepower squarely in the NG category unless you use exotic VF-1 configs (heavy missiles, add-ons).

Forgive me, I correct "blind idiot" writing like the mistakes on the MLOP option. They copied that information directly from the VF-1 OSM spec, but apparently missed the fact that the UUM-7 missile packs use the same SRMs as the VF-1's Super Pack. There are other severe issues too, caused by Palladium's attempt to force the wildly inappropriate old missile tables onto 2E.


ShadowLogan wrote:
And this doesn't count the unlimited payload weapons or gravity bombs. Range of said firepower from missiles favors the VF-1 more, though guns are more even.

The guns are exactly even, except the VF-1's gun pod has more stopping power. See my remarks regarding "stasis".

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:52 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
Not really, no... they just spread out over a greater area on the Alpha. The VF-1's head-internal secondary radar moved outboard to a separate sensor pod, and the coaxial weapon mount was deleted entirely, leaving just the camera systems behind.

And the Alpha has less internal volume to work with, while cramming more stuff into it (Cyc bay, 68 missiles, 2nd "head" essentially, VTOL engines, etc). The only way that works is if the Alpha's avionics are physically smaller (or the Alpha is bigger on the inside).

The Size Comparison Chart at RT.com does put the Alpha and VF-1 as having the same size radome, which means the apertures are the same, but the supporting hardware can be smaller.

Seto wrote:
Forgive me, I correct "blind idiot" writing like the mistakes on the MLOP option. They copied that information directly from the VF-1 OSM spec, but apparently missed the fact that the UUM-7 missile packs use the same SRMs as the VF-1's Super Pack. There are other severe issues too, caused by Palladium's attempt to force the wildly inappropriate old missile tables onto 2E.


You may use "corrected" information in your games, but that doesn't mean everyone does or the same thing which is why in that context you have to use the Rules as Written (RAW). You may not like it, but it allows everyone to be one the same page in discussions.

Seto wrote:
The guns are exactly even, except the VF-1's gun pod has more stopping power. See my remarks regarding "stasis".

In the short-term yes, on an individual attack basis and sustained fire. But there is more at play here given the EU-13/15 have easily removable magazines allowing faster turn around time than a GU-11 (possibly as simple as 1E's clip system, though the Alpha doesn't carry spare clips now). The EP-20/EU-11 on a single sortie can potentially exceed the GU-11 if they are given time to recharge (when calculating I did not allow for this, an EP-20 only needs to recharge 1/4 capacity to equal the GU-11 for sustained fire).

By the Internal unlimited payload guns, the VF-1 is no better than the Alpha, but both suffer when compared to the OTHER VFs looked at (the only exception was the AGAC's light laser). GU-11 meet EU-14 array (Beta), same damage, same range, much longer sustained fire.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:05 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
And the Alpha has less internal volume to work with, while cramming more stuff into it (Cyc bay, 68 missiles, 2nd "head" essentially, VTOL engines, etc). The only way that works is if the Alpha's avionics are physically smaller (or the Alpha is bigger on the inside).

Well... I understand how you could think that was the case, given your various misconceptions about what was done in the craft's design. In truth, the "Alpha" is actually cramming far less into a smaller container by eliminating several systems the VF-1 possessed and leaving as little empty space as possible. The VF-1 Valkyrie had, by design, some empty spaces inside its airframe for future component upgrades, new systems, additional mission-specific equipment, extra fuel tanks, etc. The actual Alpha design lacks components like "magic hands", a countermeasure dispenser system, BLCS sub-intakes, an active stealth system, coaxial weaponry, and so on. Its main engines are smaller, but also much less powerful for it, and its other engines are about the same size as the VF-1's rockets, but produce less than half as much thrust. The components that weren't reduced in size and effectiveness were just redistributed... the elements that existed in the VF-1's head ended up being spread out across two separate modules instead, and even then parts had to be removed to make it work.

(Yes, I know the RPG claims the Alpha has countermeasures... the actual design does not.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
In the short-term yes, on an individual attack basis and sustained fire. But there is more at play here given the EU-13/15 have easily removable magazines [...]

The Alpha can't carry spare magazines for its gun, though, and no statement is given to exactly how long it takes to fit a new magazine... probably a long time, since under 2E you need a specialism just to replace batteries.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:20 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
The Alpha can't carry spare magazines for its gun, though, and no statement is given to exactly how long it takes to fit a new magazine... probably a long time, since under 2E you need a specialism just to replace batteries.

I know the Alpha can't carry spare magazines and it was noted unlike 1E (which gave it to both the VF-1/Alpha). Still the magazines are described as "Protoculture cell that is inserted into the weapon like a magazine, and can be switched for a new one easily."-EU-13 entry. The EU-15 entry does mention magazine like the EU-13 (not compatible between the two), but nothing about ease. The GU-11 mentions needing tech team. Given the "easily" part, it is going to be faster and simpler than the GU-11 reloading as that adverb isn't used with regard to the GU-11.

Spare clips though could be provided by a "runner" platform bringing in fresh clips (and/or swapping them out) allowing one platform to service more Alphas than a similar sized one could do for the VF-1 bringing in fresh GU-11s to swap out.

I'm not sure that you do need an actual specialist to replace the PC cells as the RPG claims, given Rand/Rook/Lancer are all shown to replace their Cyclone PC cells at least once in the show ("Curtain Call") and they don't have the required skills. Recharging the Cells (by some means) I can see requiring the correct skills, but not a simple replacement job.

Seto wrote:
(Yes, I know the RPG claims the Alpha has countermeasures... the actual design does not.)

But if the RPG is giving the Alpha additional systems that the OSM doesn't credit it for, that sets precedent for additional systems being present not noted in the OSM which brings us back to having less internal volume to cram more features into for the RPG version. I would point out that per the RPG the Valk doesn't have a stealth system adding additional precedent that the OSM is not followed for sub-systems.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:38 am
  

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I think I'll just stick to my rewritten versions and not have to worry about "fusion conversion" since all my rewritten mecha use protoculture in one way shape or form for a power source/fuel. Makes life so much easier......

Mind you I rewrote much of it to correct the Alpha stats as well and make it an actually evolution to a "better fighter" relatively speaking over the VF-1. At least for Robotech. The Alpha I write up for Canon Mospeada won't be nearly as recognizable when I get around to it.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:15 am
  

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Knight

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
In the short-term yes, on an individual attack basis and sustained fire. But there is more at play here given the EU-13/15 have easily removable magazines [...]

The Alpha can't carry spare magazines for its gun, though, and no statement is given to exactly how long it takes to fit a new magazine... probably a long time, since under 2E you need a specialism just to replace batteries.

I had a short discussion with Jason Marker (who did write info on in TSC), the Alpha was supposed to be able to charge it's Rifle through it's hands just like the Southern Cross Mecha. But somehow it was cut out of the book.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:01 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Still the magazines are described as "Protoculture cell that is inserted into the weapon like a magazine, and can be switched for a new one easily."-EU-13 entry. [...]

Which is still meaningless, because the RTSC core book indicates that changing out protoculture cells requires a character have bio-maintenance engineer or similar, meaning a technician is still needed... and not just for the Alpha's gun pod, they need that skill for EVERYTHING. Basically, the same thing is said three slightly different ways for three different weapons. Running an auto-loader isn't exactly a job that requires a team of highly-trained engineers, so reloading the GU-11 is easy too.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Spare clips though could be provided by a "runner" platform bringing in fresh clips (and/or swapping them out) allowing one platform to service more Alphas than a similar sized one could do for the VF-1 bringing in fresh GU-11s to swap out.

It doesn't say whether or not the Alpha can actually fit a new magazine on its own... and based on what's said for all of the other cell-driven units in the game, it likely needs to set the gun down so a tech can service it. As a side note, 1e's GU-11 spec isn't totally out in left field... a field-reloadable version of the GU-11 does exist, and is compatible with the VF-1 and a selection of other Macross designs (designated GU-11D). The VF-1 was, however, capable of fitting new magazines in the field on its own.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I'm not sure that you do need an actual specialist to replace the PC cells as the RPG claims, given Rand/Rook/Lancer are all shown to replace their Cyclone PC cells at least once in the show [...]

Hey now, if you're holding me to RAW I have to return the favor... :wink:


ShadowLogan wrote:
But if the RPG is giving the Alpha additional systems that the OSM doesn't credit it for, that sets precedent for additional systems being present not noted in the OSM [...]

Not really, no... it just means the RPG is out in left field. Its contents aren't canon, and never will be... but that's a whole other pallet of gelatin and dog food that used to be a dead horse.


ShadowLogan wrote:
which brings us back to having less internal volume to cram more features into for the RPG version. I would point out that per the RPG the Valk doesn't have a stealth system adding additional precedent that the OSM is not followed for sub-systems.

's one line item not present. ONE. Even then, it's only not present because it didn't get explicitly mentioned in the base spec of the plane written in the animation model sheets, and was only discussed in the subsequent materials published in greater detail the following year. It doesn't validate your argument any, because the RPG versions of both craft are also missing numerous other systems evidenced in the series, for simplicity's sake. The Alpha is cramming less material into smaller volume by eliminating empty space, some systems, and several flight-relevant capabilities.




Tiree wrote:
I had a short discussion with Jason Marker (who did write info on in TSC), the Alpha was supposed to be able to charge it's Rifle through it's hands just like the Southern Cross Mecha. But somehow it was cut out of the book.

Somehow, I'm not surprised... the Robotech franchise has been trying to improve its standing and make itself into a credible mecha anime title by copying as much as it can from its betters, and both Macross and Gundam have used that one extensively. Perhaps it's karma? Southern Cross tried to copy both Macross and Gundam, and MOSPEADA was trying to copy Macross.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:28 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Which is still meaningless, because the RTSC core book indicates that changing out protoculture cells requires a character have bio-maintenance engineer or similar, meaning a technician is still needed...

Depends on what qualifies in that manner. To restock the PC cells in the various magazine types I would agree, but the magazine itself may not qualify as needing a certified technician requiring only the necessary WP skill (w/o WP Skill one can not re-load or clean the weapon).

Seto wrote:
Running an auto-loader isn't exactly a job that requires a team of highly-trained engineers, so reloading the GU-11 is easy too.

Perhaps, but by RAW the EU-13 is said to be "easily" reloaded, that adverb is not used in relation to the GU-11. So the EU-13 is a step up over the GU-11 in that regard.

Otherwise why describe the energy weapons in TSC source as a "magazine" (or "Clip") and not an "internal capacitor" like the other EU-10/EU-11/EU-12/EP-20 series the ASC uses. Even the GU-11 is said to be an internal magazine, suggesting it can't be removed.

Seto wrote:
It doesn't say whether or not the Alpha can actually fit a new magazine on its own... and based on what's said for all of the other cell-driven units in the game, it likely needs to set the gun down so a tech can service it. As a side note, 1e's GU-11 spec isn't totally out in left field... a field-reloadable version of the GU-11 does exist, and is compatible with the VF-1 and a selection of other Macross designs (designated GU-11D). The VF-1 was, however, capable of fitting new magazines in the field on its own.

I don't think it needs to say anything about the matter specifically since the mecha doesn't carry spare magazines. They don't say the magazine is internal either like on the Gu-11, further supporting the idea it should be swappable unlike the GU-11's.

Seto wrote:
Hey now, if you're holding me to RAW I have to return the favor...

RAW it is, but it is an example of something they got wrong that should not be in dispute if it is supposed to follow the actual show. Maybe in the next printing they can clarify the whole PC magazine/Cell issue since it conflicts with the show it is emulating (or put out an errata correction sheet for the books).

Seto wrote:
It doesn't validate your argument any, because the RPG versions of both craft are also missing numerous other systems evidenced in the series, for simplicity's sake. The Alpha is cramming less material into smaller volume by eliminating empty space, some systems, and several flight-relevant capabilities.

That the list of systems is incomplete on both craft I won't argue with, but the fact they are omitting and adding stuff does make OSM listings unreliable since we don't know why a given item was cut/added to the list for the RPG in the first place.

Tiree wrote:
I had a short discussion with Jason Marker (who did write info on in TSC), the Alpha was supposed to be able to charge it's Rifle through it's hands just like the Southern Cross Mecha. But somehow it was cut out of the book.

Did he say why it was cut?

ASC mecha no longer can charge their gunpods via their hand connections, it requires putting it into a housing (F/B/G Logan, G/T mode VHT) or hooking to cable (nt-Battloids).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:44 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Tiree wrote:
I had a short discussion with Jason Marker (who did write info on in TSC), the Alpha was supposed to be able to charge it's Rifle through it's hands just like the Southern Cross Mecha. But somehow it was cut out of the book.

Did he say why it was cut?

ASC mecha no longer can charge their gunpods via their hand connections, it requires putting it into a housing (F/B/G Logan, G/T mode VHT) or hooking to cable (nt-Battloids).

To be honest, I can't really recall if it was cut or was 'should have been in there'. We had several discussions of items about the books before he was let go from Palladium.

But I do remember right after the Masters book came out, I had it in my grubby little hands and asked him about the charging, and he mentioned that the Alpha's and the other TSC mecha should be done the same way. So I have since changed it in my games to actually do that.

I could have sworn he said hands on the charging point. But I can easily see it in 'stored' mode. Of course the best thing about TSC mecha is that the weapons when stowed are accessible to be fired.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:30 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Depends on what qualifies in that manner. To restock the PC cells in the various magazine types I would agree, but the magazine itself may not qualify as needing a certified technician requiring only the necessary WP skill (w/o WP Skill one can not re-load or clean the weapon).

Again, RAW indicates that changing a protoculture cell/magazine in anything other than small arms requires the services of someone with the bio-maintenance engineer or similar skill. If you're holding me to RAW, I'll cheerfully extend the very same courtesy. :wink:


ShadowLogan wrote:
I don't think it needs to say anything about the matter specifically since the mecha doesn't carry spare magazines. They don't say the magazine is internal either like on the Gu-11, further supporting the idea it should be swappable unlike the GU-11's.

If the Alpha doesn't carry spare magazines, then there is no reason that it would have the ability to change them without presenting the weapon to the qualified engineer the book explicitly says is required for such operations. Essentially, there isn't any practical difference here, since neither the Alpha's beam rifle nor the VF-1's rotary cannon can be serviced while combat is ongoing.


ShadowLogan wrote:
RAW it is, but it is an example of something they got wrong that should not be in dispute if it is supposed to follow the actual show.

So, you're basically admitting to a double standard? When I demonstrate an indisputable error in the material, you say it's out-of-bounds... but when you do the same, it's suddenly A-OK. Are you trying to break into the organic fertilizer biz? It's an interesting change in your tune...


ShadowLogan wrote:
Maybe in the next printing they can clarify the whole PC magazine/Cell issue since it conflicts with the show it is emulating (or put out an errata correction sheet for the books).

Considering how often you get on my case for citing errors in the RPG and complain about how the RPG should be an entity separate from RT proper and not bound to the source material, this is a rather ironic thing for you to say.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:05 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Again, RAW indicates that changing a protoculture cell/magazine in anything other than small arms requires the services of someone with the bio-maintenance engineer or similar skill. If you're holding me to RAW, I'll cheerfully extend the very same courtesy.

The gunpod magazines though can follow small arms design practices to allow for the change out to be handled by WP level training. The weapon already appears to have an easily identifiable magazine (which seems to disappear in F-mode carriage for the EU-13 on the leg/underwing stations).

The only real place that certified techs seem to be required for PC use is swapping (or recharging) the spent fuel cells, not magazines (that can contain them). That requirement is mentioned in the infantry weapons that use Protoculture-magazine as a reminder, even though it is mentioned for the mecha's fuel supply in each case.

Seto wrote:
If the Alpha doesn't carry spare magazines, then there is no reason that it would have the ability to change them without presenting the weapon to the qualified engineer the book explicitly says is required for such operations. Essentially, there isn't any practical difference here, since neither the Alpha's beam rifle nor the VF-1's rotary cannon can be serviced while combat is ongoing.

Sure there are reasons for it to have the ability:
-extra magazines may not be standard issue (additional magazines carried somehow at GM's discretion)
-allow field recovery of magazines from damaged weapons to spent weapons
-otherwise why go to the EU-13 at all, the ASC weapons would be superior in this regard (recharge in down time, most equal range and stopping power for bursts and a few have better payloads, strike bonus isn't as good though but I doubt that has much to do with the energy system)

Seto wrote:
So, you're basically admitting to a double standard? When I demonstrate an indisputable error in the material, you say it's out-of-bounds... but when you do the same, it's suddenly A-OK. Are you trying to break into the organic fertilizer biz? It's an interesting change in your tune...

No. RAW says one thing. We are entitled to our own opinions though, you tend to put your opinions out as fact (I've been guilty of that to supposedly).

Seto wrote:
Considering how often you get on my case for citing errors in the RPG and complain about how the RPG should be an entity separate from RT proper and not bound to the source material, this is a rather ironic thing for you to say.

That the RPG can get things wrong from the show itself I don't doubt (they sold the Logan short in a few ways, ASC/REF guns are underpowered even though they are shown to get 1-shot kills just like the GU-11, Pupil Pistol, Alpha carrying two Eu-13s, FbW introduced post main-book, etc ). What I complain about is the method used to establish that its wrong.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:31 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
The gunpod magazines though can follow small arms design practices to allow for the change out to be handled by WP level training.

RAW clearly indicates that vehicle-level protoculture cells require a qualified technician to replace... and the Alpha's gunpod is explicitly a vehicle-level protoculture cell. To be fair, the RAW does also indicate that the VF-1 can be reloaded without returning to base so long as a qualified technician is present, so they're on the same level really.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Sure there are reasons for it to have the ability:
-extra magazines may not be standard issue (additional magazines carried somehow at GM's discretion)

The Alpha and Shadow fighter have nowhere to keep spare magazines. They have no wing pylons, internal storage, or any other place to keep them.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-allow field recovery of magazines from damaged weapons to spent weapons

Prior to 2044, there was no shortage of protoculture and therefore likely no reason to place any importance on recovering damaged ammunition. It's doubtful, considering its articulations, that the Alpha could even bend over far enough to have any chance of collecting damaged hardware laying on the ground.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-otherwise why go to the EU-13 at all, the ASC weapons would be superior in this regard (recharge in down time, most equal range and stopping power for bursts and a few have better payloads, strike bonus isn't as good though but I doubt that has much to do with the energy system)

Because Robotech runs on moon logic?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:11 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
-allow field recovery of magazines from damaged weapons to spent weapons

Prior to 2044, there was no shortage of protoculture and therefore likely no reason to place any importance on recovering damaged ammunition. It's doubtful, considering its articulations, that the Alpha could even bend over far enough to have any chance of collecting damaged hardware laying on the ground.

This may or may not be relevant to this portion of the discussion. But Scott clearly explains to the audience and his team that a Guerrilla War was going to happen. And that they would end up using the resources that were locally given (IE Protoculture) in order to continue the war. In order to get these resources, they were going to steal it from the Invid

This information was explained in the episode where they go to Norristown, and Scott has the plans of the castle. Even though logically it's very hard to believe that Scott would have the plans, and not Lancer had the information... but that is life of a quickly written script.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:48 am
  

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Quote:
Note: lnvid Proroculture cells are the same as those used by the UEEF and are interchangeable. Replacing spent cells and recharching empty Protoculture energy cells requires somebody with the Biomechanical Maintenance or Robotechnology Engineering Skill

Okay this quote is pretty much in every vehicle description on Protoculture Fuel Capacity when describing anything with a Protoculture Cell. I have also looked at the skills mentioned.
Biomechanical Maintenance (Protoculture) wrote:
General knowledge in mecha mechanics and repair (i.e.. can clean and replace parts, recharge Protoculture energy cells. etc.. as well as assist a Mecha Engineer). This area of specialty focuses on all types of bio-energy and fuel systems and an understanding of Protoculture as an energy system. Includes knowledge of Protoculture energy cells fuel systems, generators maintenance recharging spent power cells and similar basic uses and applications of Protoculture. Cannot design or build Protoculture energy systems.

Now this is the skill description the first section referencing.

I have to admit, I find it fairly stupid that a normal person can't swap out a P-Cell if they are trained to operate that piece of Mecha. It should be fairly common knowledge. Recharging a spent cell is a different story, and that I can argue needing the above skill.

Maybe this is a holdover from the 1st Edition or not, I can't remember. But isn't the Invid P-Cells supposed to be slightly different and require a slight modification?

Based on this - it doesn't appear to be so. Which leads me to my point, which came first: The Invid Protoculture Cell or the Human Protoculture Cell. I could have sworn in the show, that it states the UEEF didn't know who invaded the Earth. And if that is the case, they already had P-Cell technology for the Alpha's and Beta's, not to mention Cyclones. But in Norristown, Scott clearly states that they were going to rob/steal P-Cell supplies. They knew that the Invid uses it, otherwise their missions could be hosed due to attrition of power.

Which leads me to thte conclusion that P-Cells were indeed know that the Invid do use them as a power source.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:04 am
  

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Tiree wrote:
This may or may not be relevant to this portion of the discussion. But Scott clearly explains to the audience and his team that a Guerrilla War was going to happen. And that they would end up using the resources that were locally given (IE Protoculture) in order to continue the war. [...]

Probably not, no... note that they do all of their stealing/borrowing/acquiring on foot, and at no point does the Alpha have any role in it. As far as we know, the Alpha wasn't designed to operate behind enemy lines for any length of time, and its ability to do so because of its long operating time in atmosphere is merely a happy coincidence.


Tiree wrote:
I have to admit, I find it fairly stupid that a normal person can't swap out a P-Cell if they are trained to operate that piece of Mecha. It should be fairly common knowledge.

It's not fairly stupid, it's pretty explicitly wrong if we look to the show... but ShadowLogan is insisting that we've absolutely got to stick to RAW for the purposes of this comparison, and RAW does indicate that you need someone who possesses significant training as an engineer to change out protoculture cells.


Tiree wrote:
Based on this - it doesn't appear to be so. Which leads me to my point, which came first: The Invid Protoculture Cell or the Human Protoculture Cell.

Strictly speaking, the former doesn't actually exist... which narrows the field somewhat.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:36 am
  

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Seto wrote:
RAW clearly indicates that vehicle-level protoculture cells require a qualified technician to replace... and the Alpha's gunpod is explicitly a vehicle-level protoculture cell. To be fair, the RAW does also indicate that the VF-1 can be reloaded without returning to base so long as a qualified technician is present, so they're on the same level really.

That RAW says the PC cells themselves require a technician to replace isn't in dispute. However the PC cell could seen to be placed inside a non-technician required device (the magazine or clip) to facilitate easier reloading of magazine/clip-based weapons from a skills standpoint. This still requires the technician to replace the spent PC cells inside the magazine/clip, but would not require his/her expertise for actual insertion/removal of the magazine/clip from the weapon.

I would also point out that Veritech Pilots (specific OCC) can take either of the required skills as an other skill. Aside from the Tech Officer or via MOS none of the other classes can so there is an actual chance the character could have the required skills.

The GU-11 reloading is still going to be longer than a EU magazine, even in the field. If the EU-13/15 only requires a PC cell(s) and it has the same speed of change-out the Cyclone/Alpha are demonstrated at, the GU-11 can not hope to compete with that (especially w/o the proper tools, the EU-13/15 doesn't mention needing any special tools).

Seto wrote:
The Alpha and Shadow fighter have nowhere to keep spare magazines. They have no wing pylons, internal storage, or any other place to keep them.

On the contrary they have several options if the GM allows modifications:
#1. double magazines (taped or clipped together: "Jungle Style"), might limit mode availability though
#2. put the holders on the gun itself to store them as optional add-ons (body or end of the rear stock)
#3. the magazine disappears in fighter mode, so there could be space for spare clip(s) if it extends into the body of the fighter to be stored (we do see the Alpha carrying two gunpods in fighter mode on multiple occasions). EU-15 might not qualify here since it uses a different station than the EU-13
#4. could have specialty pylons/rails for that task
#5. could use the 2nd gunpod station for extra clips (in appropriate external container, different than #3)
#6. a mode limiting option would be a bandolier
#7. possibly the Cyclone bay (have to get rid of the Cyclone), or attached to the side of the shoulder sensor pod that pops out (not an option for the Shadow) depending on actual size of items involved (lacking)

Seto wrote:
Prior to 2044, there was no shortage of protoculture and therefore likely no reason to place any importance on recovering damaged ammunition. It's doubtful, considering its articulations, that the Alpha could even bend over far enough to have any chance of collecting damaged hardware laying on the ground.

On a sortie mission though there could be a need to recover ammunition from downed comrades to prevent a need of returning to base for resupply.

As for articulation, these are Veritechs: they have a guardian mode they can use to expand their articulation range.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:06 pm
  

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I modified my Alphas to use a power feed to charge the Protoculture clip in the gunpod, ala the connection points the new Ulti-Max II uses. The gun charges at the same rate that the EU-11 does. Same thing for the Shadow Alpha. That way, carrying extra ammo doesn't have to be based around finding some form of goofy pod storage for their gun. Is it RAW or OSM? Nope, but it fixes the issue. Plus the Alpha appears to be setup for short/medium term sorties, so the designers didn't provision for extra clips as they though they wouldn't need them. Given how badly the 10th and 21st were slaughtered due to underestimating the Regess'/Invid capabilities, that's not unprecedented, especially if you're drawing from planetary assaults against the Regent. The UEEF wasn't severely challenged in space, but rather on the ground when they established a beachead on the planets. Then the Inorganics and the regular Invid come pouring in at you.

The VF-1 is little better since the main gun runs out of ammo quickly (25 bursts and you're done). The Bioroids are in the same boat. The Southern Cross mecha can recharge their main guns or don't have ammo limitations for the secondary weapons, but their PAs are based on using infantry rifles, modified crew served ballistic weapons, or secondary guns that don't have such a limitation.

All this really means is that the Valkyries and their UEEF descendants were never designed for long-term strike missions away from supplies. The Beta and Alphas are very missile heavy, and require a lot of support once their missiles are expended. Bioroids are also designed as fast strike, shorter term strike units. At least the VF-1 has head lasers, but those won't really do much against heavier armed foes. For a guerilla situation, I would rather have Southern Cross or Zentraedi mecha.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:45 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
That RAW says the PC cells themselves require a technician to replace isn't in dispute. However the PC cell could seen to be placed inside a non-technician required device (the magazine or clip) to facilitate easier reloading of magazine/clip-based weapons from a skills standpoint.

The magazine is described as a protoculture cell, no amount of word salad is going to change that.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The GU-11 reloading is still going to be longer than a EU magazine, even in the field.

I'd invite you to prove it, but I know you can't... so we'll forgo that.


ShadowLogan wrote:
On the contrary they have several options if the GM allows modifications:
#1. double magazines (taped or clipped together: "Jungle Style"), might limit mode availability though [...]

Would prevent the Alpha from transforming to fighter mode, because of where the gun pod's power pack goes.


ShadowLogan wrote:
#2. put the holders on the gun itself to store them as optional add-ons (body or end of the rear stock)

Same problem as above, the gun is stored so tightly to the airframe that any such modification would prevent the gunpod from being properly seated in its storage position.


ShadowLogan wrote:
#3. the magazine disappears in fighter mode, so there could be space for spare clip(s) if it extends into the body of the fighter to be stored (we do see the Alpha carrying two gunpods in fighter mode on multiple occasions). EU-15 might not qualify here since it uses a different station than the EU-13

The magazine doesn't disappear, it's tucked into a gap between the "leg" and the rest of the fuselage. Not exactly a safe place for it, but the best they could do with the shape of the gun. There is no internal ammo storage space.


ShadowLogan wrote:
#4. could have specialty pylons/rails for that task

The Alpha has no fixtures for same, and specialty mounting points for that hardware would almost certainly be out of the mecha's reach in battroid mode... either by being stuck on the underside of the wing (inside the mecha's back), or on an other, similarly inaccessible body part.


ShadowLogan wrote:
#5. could use the 2nd gunpod station for extra clips (in appropriate external container, different than #3)

Unfeasible, for the reason stated above.


ShadowLogan wrote:
#6. a mode limiting option would be a bandolier

At which point you might as well just take a Condor. :lol:


ShadowLogan wrote:
#7. possibly the Cyclone bay (have to get rid of the Cyclone), or attached to the side of the shoulder sensor pod that pops out (not an option for the Shadow) depending on actual size of items involved (lacking)

Too big... also, beyond the ability of the Alpha to reach during any mode.


ShadowLogan wrote:
As for articulation, these are Veritechs: they have a guardian mode they can use to expand their articulation range.

On the VF-1, certainly... the articulation range of the Alpha is considerably more limited by its transformation.




Lost Seraph wrote:
The VF-1 is little better since the main gun runs out of ammo quickly (25 bursts and you're done). [...]

The VF-1 has a coaxial gun with respectable stopping power that's available in all modes, though... the Alpha doesn't.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:55 pm
  

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Seto - as per RAW the vf-1 head guns REALLY aren't very good. This isn't my rewrite we're talking about here :lol: :ok:

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