GU-11 or GU-12?

[Seto Kaiba]

I also tend to think of it more as a heavy anti-armor weapon, and impose penalties to strike fast or small targets. And just how big would a 100 round magazine storing 100mm shells be anyhow?

's one of the bigger issues with the way 1st Ed. assumed that gun pods could be reloaded with removable magazines... they didn't (and still don't) seem to have a clear idea of how large the ammo for a weapon like that really is. I mean, a 100mm round would have a diameter just shy of 4", and if the cartridge is anything like its real-world equivalents it'd end up being around 2' long, if not slightly longer. Pick any magazine style you like, a hundred of those will get you a magazine significantly larger than the whole body of the GU-11... so large that it'd be pretty much impossible for a Valkyrie to actually use the gun. (To put it in perspective, the GU-11's non-removable internal magazine is based on the extremely space-efficient helical feed design and it barely fits 200 rounds into the entire front 2/3 of the gun.)

Also, what MDC base do you use for your VF-1? I ask because even 1D6x10 seems anemic, comparatively speaking, when you look at the current settings MDC values. (And being one of the people that firmly believes even 250 MDC is twice what it should be...)

Hrm... since his players are using a reloadable GU-11, I'm guessing they're probably using the MDC values outta the 1e Macross Saga book.

[FreelancerMar]

If I were to use the GU-12 in the 2nd edition of Robotech, then I would make it a Semi-Auto weapon. Since it is a 100mm bore calibur weapon according to the 1e rdf manual, Depending on the choice of ammo, Id say that it should have similar damage to that of a 105mm VHT round. Also due to the RECOIL that this weapon would undoubtably have, I would not issue this weapon to any veritech fighter. It would however make a good weapon to the 1e Gladiator and/or it's 2e equivelant.

[glitterboy2098]

If I were to use the GU-12 in the 2nd edition of Robotech, then I would make it a Semi-Auto weapon. Since it is a 100mm bore calibur weapon according to the 1e rdf manual, Depending on the choice of ammo, Id say that it should have similar damage to that of a 105mm VHT round. Also due to the RECOIL that this weapon would undoubtably have, I would not issue this weapon to any veritech fighter. It would however make a good weapon to the 1e Gladiator and/or it's 2e equivelant.

given the recoil of the GAU-8 30mm gatling, i think it's safe to say that the GU-11's 55mm gatling would be fairly high recoil itself. so a single shot 100mm or 105mm cannon should be something a VF can handle.

[Seto Kaiba]

Also due to the RECOIL that this weapon would undoubtably have, I would not issue this weapon to any veritech fighter. It would however make a good weapon to the 1e Gladiator and/or it's 2e equivelant.

Oddly, this is actually an acknowledged issue in the Japanese Macross franchise when it comes to VF gun pods. The gun pods used by new models of Valkyrie are virtually never issued to older models, because the greater recoil forces that result from the use of improved ammunition and other changes could (and have) cause the recoil force to exceed the safe design stress limits of the mecha's limbs and joints. That'd be why the VF-0 was never issued the GU-11, why the GU-15 was a VF-19 exclusive, and why the VF-19EF and VF-19ACTIVE needed their arms reinforced before they could operate a GU-17. Something almost double the caliber of a GU-11, and presumably operating on a larger propellant cartridge to get that large round moving at a decent speed, would almost certainly be pushing the VF-1's limits... kinda like how the large artillery support guns in Gundam (e.g. the Magella Top Cannon) are massive and need to be braced before firing.

I am basing the reloading of the 55mm mags on two things. In the novel series they reload their GU-11s in combat. Also, in the 1st Gen RPG Robotech book you can reload your 55mm losing 1/2 of your melee attacks (book rules). And in the New Gen RPG book (the original) it states that the Alphas carries 2 spare mags, 1 in each leg.

Yeah, I figured as much... the 1e books had a lot of weird stuff that didn't come from Robotech or the OSM, and the existence of field-reloadable gun pods is one such screwy bit they made up on the fly. The writers just didn't have a clear picture of the subject matter, so they had to wing it to fill in the gaps. The way the GU-11 is designed, there's no way to have a removable magazine that holds that caliber of ammunition at anywhere near the quantity stated. The space you'd need for that much ammo would be, as shown, pretty much 2/3 the length of the gun pod itself... and that's using what's easily the most space-efficient magazine system out there. 's why they got rid of the removable magazine thing in 2E... still, to each their own, and it's nice to see someone actually acknowledging the novels (without it ending in a torrent of vitriol).

Also, I wonder if using a short shell, double stack mag would make more room for the 100mm shells? For a scaled down version of what I am talking about compair the real world 9mm Magnum to the 9mm Parabelum and the .380 Browning APC. All fire a 9mm/.355" caliber bullet but differ big time in shell length.

Using a shorter shell, like a scaled-up pistol round, with a reduced propellant charge would save space... but it would also dramatically reduce the weapon's overall offensive capability. Against a hard-armored target, using a spitzer-type (pointy) bullet and a larger propellant charge is going to pay greater dividends than a non-spitzer (rounded) bullet with a smaller or equivalent propellant charge.

given the recoil of the GAU-8 30mm gatling, i think it's safe to say that the GU-11's 55mm gatling would be fairly high recoil itself. so a single shot 100mm or 105mm cannon should be something a VF can handle.

Oh, no doubt of that... the GAU-8/A is firing a 30mm round at ~1,100m/s, while the GU-11 is lobbing rounds almost twice the size (55mm) at almost twice the velocity (2,000m/s). Assuming that the single-shot 100mm cannon were using older (modern) propellant cartridges instead of the more powerful blends in the GU-11 (and at greater quantities for the bigger round) then it should hold up OK. If it's using the same propellant as the GU-11, then there's a decent chance that the considerably greater recoil force would be enough to damage the VF-1's hands, arms, or even knock it over.

[Jefffar]

Well for a real life comparison point, the Soviets based their ZSU-57-2 twin 57mm anti-aircraft gun on the same platform as their T-54.55 tank which used a 100mm cannon. Depending on configuration these platforms weighted in at 28 to 39 tonnes.


Given the weight of the Valkyrie is 1/2 to 1/3rd that, I'd say the Valkyrie as is probably can't handle the recoil of the 55mm cannon it carries.

[FreelancerMar]

The reason I mentioned the recoil stuff for the GU-12 and recomending that it NOT be issued to Veritech Units is because when a Veritech is in FLIGHT the recoil WOULD be way too much for it to handle regardless of mode. Issueing such a weapon to a ground pounding and much heavier destroid would make sense.

That's just MHO on the matter bur to each their own.

[Seto Kaiba]

Given the weight of the Valkyrie is 1/2 to 1/3rd that, I'd say the Valkyrie as is probably can't handle the recoil of the 55mm cannon it carries.

Eh... I'd wager the fact that the Valkyrie's made of much tougher materials probably tips the scales back into its favor on that front. (It may be worth noting that some publications, such as Master File, have asserted that VFs could use rocket propelled bullets (e.g. the Gyrojet or WH40K Bolter weaponry) to reduce recoil in atmospheric service.)

I standard issue GU-12s to Armored Valkyries serving near the Zentraedi Control Zone and as Ship Boarding Teams in space missions. Keeps everyone honest.

Sound, and with a good deal of official precedent to back it up... even tho the GU-12 isn't actually a thing in the original source material. Giving a heavier gun (in one case, a 78mil gun torn from a Defender chassis) to a VF with Protect Armor does appear to be SOP, and sometimes comes with heavier missile ordinance too. (There's some fantastic art of a VF-1J with Armored Packs equipped with reaction warheads in Master File.)

I would also note that the VF-11 Thunderbolts Multi-Purpose gunpod was magazine fed. It might have "only" been 30mm, but it was six barreled instead of three, and also included a sizable bayonet you could retract entirely into the gun housing.

Well, yes... the VF-11 Thunderbolt was the first model of VF in Macross (confirmed) to be equipped with a gun pod that could be reloaded by the mecha in the field. The size of the ammunition decreased by almost 50%, but all evidence points to it carrying relatively few rounds per magazine (~150-180). Not sure what the number of barrels has to do with anything. Lastly, the bayonet wasn't actually that large, and it wasn't mounted inside the gun housing... it's fitted on a hinge and retracts into a sheath underneath the gun, not inside of it.

The GU-15 in use with the VF-19 line also used removable magazine, though I can't seem to locate how many rounds either of these weapon carried, nor what caliber the GU-15 is.

True, but it's worth noting that the GU-15 is no exception to the general rule that the magazine is one of the largest parts of the gun pod. It's just that, in that case, the magazine is the entire back half of the gun instead of being 2/3 the upper part of the gun. (The diagram and description in Master File identifies the magazine capacity as 150 rounds.)

So a magazine loaded gun pod is more than possible, its just that the GU-11, as initially designed and issued, could use one. A redesign migth be able to overcome this limitation, but it obviously wouldn't be the GU-11 anymore.

Well, that last point is debatable... the section on the VF-3000 in Vol.2 of the VF-1 Master File suggests that the massive gun pod it carries (seen here) is just that: a late variant GU-11 that can be reloaded in the field. The catch is, the mass of the gun pod increased considerably to accommodate the removable magazine and necessary changes to the feed system, and the removable magazines come with the downside that they don't hold as many rounds as the more space-efficient internal helical magazine (120, instead of 200). The VF-1 could conceivably lug one around, but where would it keep the magazines? It doesn't have any kind of internal storage space (e.g. VF-14, VF-17) or a convenient shield to store them behind (e.g. VF-11, VF-19) the way that Valkyries with reloadable gun pods do.

There's a picture of a gunpod the VF-11 uses that would be a decent fit for the supposed GU-12, and it even appears to have a pair of ammo feeds, judging by the gunpods shape.

You mean the GU-XS-06? The one that's so large that the plane can't actually carry it? (IINM, you're off on caliber there by about half. I don't recall the exact number, but it's somewhere in the 50-60mm range.)

including 100mm SHOTGUN OF DOOM ROUNDS

AHEAD?

The reason I mentioned the recoil stuff for the GU-12 and recomending that it NOT be issued to Veritech Units is because when a Veritech is in FLIGHT the recoil WOULD be way too much for it to handle regardless of mode. Issueing such a weapon to a ground pounding and much heavier destroid would make sense.

Yeah, the way I keep picturing its use would be as something similar to the heavy cannons occasionally carried by the RX-79(G) Gundam (Ground Type) in Mobile Suit Gundam: 08th MS Team... a heavy cannon that needs to be braced in a stable position for use, like some of the heavier gun pods carried by Valkyries in Macross.

[glitterboy2098]

The reason I mentioned the recoil stuff for the GU-12 and recomending that it NOT be issued to Veritech Units is because when a Veritech is in FLIGHT the recoil WOULD be way too much for it to handle regardless of mode. Issueing such a weapon to a ground pounding and much heavier destroid would make sense.

That's just MHO on the matter bur to each their own.

the recoil of the burst limited GAU-8 mounted ion the A-10 Thunderbolt is so high that when fired, the plane actually stops even when at full throttle. the burst justs lasts such a short time the plane can remain flying. and the GAU-8 actually fires over a longer period than a 105mm cannon would.

the air force had developed a 'cut down' gunpod version of the GAU-8 at one point, with the barrel count reduced to 4 and the barrels themselves made shorter. fitted to an F-16 (to be dubbed the A-16), it was supposed to replace the A-10. the recoil did the same thing to the A-16 that it did to the A-10. ultimately the plan was dropped becuase the F-16 platform couldn't fly low enough to employ the cannon properly.

during ww2 there was an ME-262 prototype built with an 88mm howitzer in it's nose, intended to tank hunt. when fired the plane would actually fly backwards several feet. even with the purely mechanical control system of those planes, it never crashed. (the idea was shelved when the germans realized that a JU-52 stuka with regular bombs was much more effective)

somehow i think the VF-1 could handle a 105mm cannon.

[Jefffar]

Given the weight of the Valkyrie is 1/2 to 1/3rd that, I'd say the Valkyrie as is probably can't handle the recoil of the 55mm cannon it carries.

Eh... I'd wager the fact that the Valkyrie's made of much tougher materials probably tips the scales back into its favor on that front. (It may be worth noting that some publications, such as Master File, have asserted that VFs could use rocket propelled bullets (e.g. the Gyrojet or WH40K Bolter weaponry) to reduce recoil in atmospheric service.)

My concerns were not structural integrity based. The ZSU-57-2 rocks considerably during firing and the T-54/54 can actually be mved by the recoil of its gun.

With the lighter weight of the Valkyrie, without considerable recoil reduction of the weapons means the potential for this scenario.

[FreelancerMar]

The reason I mentioned the recoil stuff for the GU-12 and recomending that it NOT be issued to Veritech Units is because when a Veritech is in FLIGHT the recoil WOULD be way too much for it to handle regardless of mode. Issueing such a weapon to a ground pounding and much heavier destroid would make sense.

That's just MHO on the matter bur to each their own.

the recoil of the burst limited GAU-8 mounted ion the A-10 Thunderbolt is so high that when fired, the plane actually stops even when at full throttle. the burst justs lasts such a short time the plane can remain flying. and the GAU-8 actually fires over a longer period than a 105mm cannon would.

the air force had developed a 'cut down' gunpod version of the GAU-8 at one point, with the barrel count reduced to 4 and the barrels themselves made shorter. fitted to an F-16 (to be dubbed the A-16), it was supposed to replace the A-10. the recoil did the same thing to the A-16 that it did to the A-10. ultimately the plan was dropped becuase the F-16 platform couldn't fly low enough to employ the cannon properly.

during ww2 there was an ME-262 prototype built with an 88mm howitzer in it's nose, intended to tank hunt. when fired the plane would actually fly backwards several feet. even with the purely mechanical control system of those planes, it never crashed. (the idea was shelved when the germans realized that a JU-52 stuka with regular bombs was much more effective)

somehow i think the VF-1 could handle a 105mm cannon.

For those not in the know, The ME-262 was/is a WWII era JET Aircraft.

As for a VF-1 being able to use a GU-12???? I'll put it this way. The VF-1 Lack's the MASS/Weight to be able to compensate for the recoil generated by such a weapon. Also the Gu-12 would not be suited to Space operations either.

[Jefffar]

the recoil of the burst limited GAU-8 mounted ion the A-10 Thunderbolt is so high that when fired, the plane actually stops even when at full throttle. the burst justs lasts such a short time the plane can remain flying. and the GAU-8 actually fires over a longer period than a 105mm cannon would.

the air force had developed a 'cut down' gunpod version of the GAU-8 at one point, with the barrel count reduced to 4 and the barrels themselves made shorter. fitted to an F-16 (to be dubbed the A-16), it was supposed to replace the A-10. the recoil did the same thing to the A-16 that it did to the A-10. ultimately the plan was dropped becuase the F-16 platform couldn't fly low enough to employ the cannon properly.

during ww2 there was an ME-262 prototype built with an 88mm howitzer in it's nose, intended to tank hunt. when fired the plane would actually fly backwards several feet. even with the purely mechanical control system of those planes, it never crashed. (the idea was shelved when the germans realized that a JU-52 stuka with regular bombs was much more effective)

somehow i think the VF-1 could handle a 105mm cannon.

The GAU-8's recoil did slow the aircraft, but only slightly. You could theoretically have braked the aircraft with the GAU-8, but doing so would have required hauling more ammunition than the A-10 could get off the ground with and taken probably a few minutes of continuous fire.

In regards to the Me-262, the Germans did equip some models with a single barrel 50 mm cannon for bomber hunting, but I am unaware of them adding an 88mm cannon to any models. They did put 75 and 88mm cannons on twin-engined fighters and bombers for anti-tank duties and a number of British and American aircraft used 57 and 75mm cannons for anti-shipping attacks. However these were aircraft at the larger end of the spectrum for what could be considered a fighter and today the only aircraft mounting a weapon greater than 30mm is a modified 4 engine tactical transport.

The secret to resisting recoil is mass. The heavier you are, the less effect it has. As my other post indicates, using comparable weapons to what it is proposed the VF-1 carries a platform of far greater weight and with the advantage of a nice stable chassis with a low center of gravity s still rocked.

At least in jet mode (and in most of the aircraft mounted weapons described above) the weapon is rigidly mounted to the fuselage and points in the opposite direction of the engine thrust, mitigating this somewhat. Firing a GU-11 or GU-12 in battloid or guardian, unless well braced, would very likely have been a very harrowing experience had Macross/Robotech used realistic physics.

[Seto Kaiba]

My concerns were not structural integrity based. The ZSU-57-2 rocks considerably during firing and the T-54/54 can actually be moved by the recoil of its gun.

Well, I would suggest that you return to my previous post and review what I said about there being options to mitigate recoil forces in Macross. In addition to low-recoil forms of gun pod ammo, I've also heard mention of inertia control technology being used to dissipate recoil force from some of the most powerful kinetic gun pods (e.g. the SSL-9B railgun).

On the GU-12. A modern day 100mm cannon has a range of what, a few miles? Shorten the barrel, shorten the shell, lower the powder charged and you might have a gun that has a range of less than 1 mile that a VT could handle.

That sounds workable, but to be honest it kind of defeats the point of such a large cannon in the first place. Long range and superior penetrating power are pretty much the main reasons that you'd have a cannon like that, and reducing the velocity of the round and the length of the barrel are going to negatively impact both.

I am a reloader and I currently load about a dozen cartidges. I can't find the shell specs on the 30mm but is this a strait wall case NATO/Russia? Or is this a bottleneck? If it is a bottleneck I wonder if we could neck it up to 55mm?

On the GAU-8/A? That's using the PGU-13/B, PGU-14/B, or PGU-15/B, which are all tapered ("bottleneck") cartridge cases.

OK, looks like I sturred it up with this topic. Maybe I should tell you all that I like to fly my Super VT with full armor in jet mode in the Earth's atmoshere.

*snerk* But that's totally workable... at least, according to the original Macross materials. It's going to maneuver like a brick (unless it's the Super Pack II), but it's actually been done.

First, I had to go back and edit my previous post, since I meant to say the GU-11 could NOT use a magazine, and left off the "NOT" part by accident. Seto seems to have gotten my gist anyhow though, and no one else commented, so its all good anyhow.

As Freelancer and Seto mentioned, the recoil wold likely be considerable, but in each case, the Armored Valkyrie would have 16+ tons of additional mass to absorb it, and 80/70 missiles available to fight with while boarding (OSM/RPG2).

Um... 's actually more than that. The Armored Pack adds about 18.6 metric tons to a VF-1's total mass. Standard operating for a VF-1J Armored Valkyrie is 37.1 metric tons. 80 missiles, the gun pod, and two medium-bore megawatt lasers is certainly going to make the crew on a ship you're boarding sit up and take notice.

Once aboard, the gunpod would be sufficient for most engagements, and it might even be possible to carry a spare GU-11 for reserve use since the Armored Valkyrie doesn't transform until it jettisons the armor anyhow.

Well, that's possible... it's been shown in a couple sources, incl. Master File, that there is an ordinance station on the forearm module of the GBP-1S Armored Pack. I would say it's within the realm of possibility that the forearm stations could be used to carry extra gun pods.

Hey Seto, any chance we can see that VF-1J your talking about? Assuming its carrying this 78mm gunpod you mentioned. Also, what do you mean by Master Files?

Sadly, I don't have a scan of that one on hand... it was an OLD piece (circa '83). It was one of an assortment of optional weapons shown in the Macross Model Hobby Handbook, which is one of the oldest sources for the VF-1 and destroid backstories. When I say "Master File", I refer to the (currently) four-book series Variable Fighter Master File, tech manuals for various models of VF (presently, two VF-1 books, one VF-19 book, one VF-25 book) written from an in-universe perspective. While not part of the official setting in their entirety, some aspects of their contents have been subsequently confirmed to be correct and canon.

The reference to the number of barrels was comparative, as in the GU-11 has three barrels of 55mm, versus the MPGP having six barrels of 30mm, meaning they would be of relatively close mass and dimensions, much as they more or less are, when you take the bayonet out of the picture of course.

Only if you assume that the guns are made of the same (or similar) materials... which, when you consider the quantum leaps in armor and airframe materials being made in Macross's main timeline, seems somewhat unlikely.

The GU-11 is stated to have 200 rounds, but even if we give the MPGP 100-120 rounds per magazine, that is comparable to a GU-11 when you take in both magazines, and replacing a magazine during turnaround would be faster than reloading the internal magazine of the GU-11...though it strikes me that simply replacing the GU-11 would maybe be faster yet?

The choice to go with a field-reloadable gun pod or a non-reloadable gun pod that has a large internal magazine seems to have more to do with expected operating conditions than it does anything else. (The bit on the VF-3000's gun pod in Master File talks about it being used for police use, with a variety of non-lethal ammo types for crowd control.) As far as whether it would be faster to switch magazines or just draw another gun pod, that seems to be a wash most of the time... look at the contemporary design rivals, the VF-19 and VF-22. One does reloads, one does multiple gun pods. It's all about the space you have, and the needs you're expecting when you design the plane and the gun. (The VF-19's going for versatility, so it's using reloads, while the VF-22's going for maximum stealth, so it's using internal feeds to the guns can also use caseless ammo.)

Also, it appears the early VF-11 carried two spare magazines, so we would literally have to drop its ammo to less than a third of the VF-1s to make it less effective.

At that point, it's more a question of "how many rounds do you need to guarantee a kill?". It doesn't take much from the 55mm to down a battle pod or powered suit, those uber-powerful explosive rounds were pretty overkill. The 30mm rounds are less so, but a better FCS on the VF-11 probably makes better use of them as well. Kind of a wash there, though the VF-11B seemed to need to put a LOT of rounds on the target to bring down a renegade armor in the opening battle.

In Macross Plus the MPGP's bayonet shoots straight out, right? It doesn't appear to fold out to me, so when retracted, the bayonet is indeed contained entirely within the body of the gunpod itself.

It's actually on a swing-arm, it makes a full 180 degree pivot when it's deployed.

Well, if we're discussing an overhaul of the VF-1, then why not newer engines too?

Oh, you mean like they did for the VF-1X and VF-1X+ Valkyries? Or the VF-1X++ Valkyrie "Double Plus" that was used by the Special Forces, one of which was further customized for use as a racing Valkyrie (the example image) by a very insane man living on Macross Frontier.

The VF-1X and X+ top out around Mach 4.28, a decent improvement over the original VF-1's speed at 30km+. The Double Plus model customized for Hakuna Aoba is a friggin' nightmare plane, equipped as it is with AVF-grade engines in the same class as the VF-19's, which get the plane into the Mach 19+ regime at 30km+. (At which point, it's more than a little on the unstable side, and is predisposed to crashing... not as bad as doing the same to a VF-9, an attempt which produced the only VF I know of to be canceled in development because of a tendency to explode in midair.)

So Seto, no idea what caliber the GU-15 is? Dang, I was hoping you would know this one chief.

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be an answer for that (yet). If it's conforming to the same "new standard" as the VF-17's MC-17A, then it'd be 40mm. Can't say if that's the case tho. After the VF-1, 30-40mm seems to be the "butter zone" for gun pods, with pretty much every new model falling into that narrow band except the VA-3's and the larger guns used on the latest VFs in Macross Frontier (which are intentionally overkill).

But no, I meant the VF-11s early gunpod, rather than the later, slimmer model that dropped the bayonet and the over sized gunpod sensor. Go to MMM and check out the Macross Plus VF-11 entry, rather than the Macross 7 entry for an image. (Heh, I just realized you were affiliated with that site chief, not trying to be snippy.)

The VF-11B and VF-11C gun pods are actually one and the same, the C-type's is just a cut down and streamlined version of the B-type's.

The heavier gunpod seems to have what appear to be a pair of shotgun style ammo tubes underneath.

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to here...

[glitterboy2098]

Hey Seto, any chance we can see that VF-1J your talking about? Assuming its carrying this 78mm gunpod you mentioned. Also, what do you mean by Master Files?

Sadly, I don't have a scan of that one on hand... it was an OLD piece (circa '83). It was one of an assortment of optional weapons shown in the Macross Model Hobby Handbook, which is one of the oldest sources for the VF-1 and destroid backstories. When I say "Master File", I refer to the (currently) four-book series Variable Fighter Master File, tech manuals for various models of VF (presently, two VF-1 books, one VF-19 book, one VF-25 book) written from an in-universe perspective. While not part of the official setting in their entirety, some aspects of their contents have been subsequently confirmed to be correct and canon.

was it This one perhaps? (fighter mode)

found those at the robotechresearch fan site. no citation for where he found the images, but it isn't a GU-11 or the large bore single barrel gunpod commonly attributed to be the GU-12...

[Seto Kaiba]

I meant that the beefier gunpod looks a bit like a gas operated shotgun with a pair of side by side ammo tubes might look like, that's all. Its a bit of a stretch, but I'm just looking for an image to compare. Here, try a quick Google for Kel-Tec 114 round shotgun to see what I mean...I think.

Erm... no, I know what a double-capacity shotgun magazine looks like. The part I'm not sure about is which "beefier" gun pod you're referring to. Is it the VF-11B's (as compared to the VF-11C's), the GU-XS-06 used by the Armored VF-11 (as compared to the VF-11B/C's), or the VF-3000's (allegedly the GU-11D, as compared to the VF-1's GU-11)?

was it This one perhaps? (fighter mode)

found those at the robotechresearch fan site. no citation for where he found the images, but it isn't a GU-11 or the large bore single barrel gunpod commonly attributed to be the GU-12...

Nope, the weapon I'm thinking of here was literally a Defender's AA mount remodeled into a rifle... it was presented in the bloody old Macross Model Hobby Handbook, which used pics of customized model kits to compliment the text, much like the recently-concluded Macross Frontier side story/prequel Macross the Ride did. (example)

The pictures you found on RobotechResearch are actually concept art from late in the development of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series. In particular, that piece dates to December 1981. AFAIK, it's been printed at least twice... the color scan on RobotechResearch is almost certainly from pg227 of Macross: Perfect Memory. A larger black-and-white version of the same line art can be found on pg31 of Shoji Kawamori's Macross Design Works book.

[rem1093]

What if it was designed like the Super V. We have bin using the same tech with all our gunpods, to remove recoil.

[glitterboy2098]

I meant that the beefier gunpod looks a bit like a gas operated shotgun with a pair of side by side ammo tubes might look like, that's all. Its a bit of a stretch, but I'm just looking for an image to compare. Here, try a quick Google for Kel-Tec 114 round shotgun to see what I mean...I think.

Erm... no, I know what a double-capacity shotgun magazine looks like. The part I'm not sure about is which "beefier" gun pod you're referring to. Is it the VF-11B's (as compared to the VF-11C's), the GU-XS-06 used by the Armored VF-11 (as compared to the VF-11B/C's), or the VF-3000's (allegedly the GU-11D, as compared to the VF-1's GU-11)?

i think he might be reffering to This one?

Nope, the weapon I'm thinking of here was literally a Defender's AA mount remodeled into a rifle... it was presented in the bloody old Macross Model Hobby Handbook, which used pics of customized model kits to compliment the text, much like the recently-concluded Macross Frontier side story/prequel Macross the Ride did. (example)

ah, OK. never seen anything matching that description.

[Seto Kaiba]

What if it was designed like the Super V. We have bin using the same tech with all our gunpods, to remove recoil.

Hm... you mean that proprietary "Super V" action developed by Kriss USA and used on their Vector SMG?

Considering that's designed for single-barrel, closed-bolt small arms, would that even work in a rotary cannon? I'm not sure if it would, but then I've never had the opportunity to examine any of Kriss's civilian market small arms.

i think he might be reffering to This one?

Oh! That would be the aforementioned GU-XS-06 heavy gun pod that, as the filename suggests, was/is mainly used as an anti-warship rifle for the Protect Armor-equipped VF-11 Thunderbolt. The only other time I've seen a VF lugging one is the section on the SV-52y "Oryol" in the 2nd Macross the Ride visual book. If the size shown in that is honest, I'd have to say that's straight-up the largest gun pod in all of Macross... larger than the massive beam rifles the DYRLverse's VF-4ST, and the main timeline's YF-27-5 and VF-27B/y carry.

This one: http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/ ... gunpod.gif
However while taking a closer look, I see your confusion, I seem to recall it have a different shape. I wonder if I was thinking of another gunpod perhaps?

Based on the description you provided, I'd wager that you were thinking of the VF-3000's gun pod... the model Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2 "Space Wing" identifies as the "GU-11D". The diagram provided in that book, which may or may not be accurate, shows that the space that looks like room for a second gun barrel on the underside is actually a second sighting sensor/camera for increased accuracy.

That GU-XS-06 is ridiculous, and reminds me of some of the weapons Gundam pawns off as reasonable.

Well... in that case, I probably shouldn't show you the massive beam rifle carried by the VF-4ST Siren in the Macross II: Lovers Again canon prequel game Macross: Eternal Love Song. That thing isn't just like the massive rifles we see in Gundam... it pretty much is one. (Let's just say that gun pod bears a strong and not-coincidental visual resemblance to the Zeta Gundam's hyper mega launcher, probably the result of being designed by a Zeta Gundam TV mechanical designer who also peppered Macross II with a large number of overt Gundam references.)

Fortunately (for who, I'm not sure), the GU-XS-06 is pretty much a space-use only thing for attacking enemy ships, which we see Captain Kinryu use it for in the Macross 7 TV series. When it's not being weighed down by gravity, that huge size isn't as big of an impediment. It probably needs those high-thrust rockets on the Protect Armor to avoid being blown backward every time the trigger's pulled.

Worse, they also gave it a massive shield. The only thing that I can think of is that the various variable fighters are all speced out for use of Armored packages from the get go (even the VF-1), and that maxed out motive capability is used for lofting silly amounts of armor and weapons when the situation requires it.

Huh? What's so bad about the Protect Armor's reactive shield? That's actually halfway practical... which is saying a LOT considering which Macross show this comes from.

(Incidentally, while I wouldn't doubt that certain later models of Valkyrie included a future armored pack as a consideration while they were being designed, I don't think it readily applies to the VF-1. There's a very definite case there where they dreamed up the Armored Pack AFTER they'd already designed the plane. The "VF History" article from Vol.79 of Bandai B-Club Magazine that defines a lot of the Macross II universe's technological continuity mentions the reason the Armored Pack always seems to go to the VF-1Js... it was developed by the same company that builds the VF-1J, and its developers used the VF-1J's specific model of FCS for all the testing. Other variants needed to be upgraded/modified for compatibility with the Armored Pack.)

The thing is, an unarmored VF in Battloid and an armored VF (obviously also in Battloid) don't seem to perform that much differently...unless its Max of course (insert Gryphon's standard "Max is God" rant here). I can't say how this works out in Frontier of course, but in TMS and M7 this seems to be the case...though the two armored packages under consideration obviously look really, really bad ass.

Oh, there's a rational explanation for that... the Armored Pack's additional mass is offset somewhat by the inclusion of a bunch of extra verniers and some powerful rocket motors (in the "backpack") so that a Valkyrie equipping the thing won't instantly become a large, slow target. (The VF-11's Armored Pack can even retain the boosters while ejecting the other armor segments, turning itself into an ersatz Super Thunderbolt.)

Actually, if I recall correctly, the equivalent in Frontier is still able to transform, right?

Yeah, the VF-25's APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack is the first time we've seen an Armored Pack that can transform. In case you're wondering why they don't just axe the Super Pack at that point, it's because the Armored Pack's weight is so huge that the powerful rockets built into it can't offset it, reducing its maximum acceleration to about 1/3 what you get from a Super Pack. On top of that, the armor material's so crazy freaking expensive that the interstellar mega-corporation that paid for it balked at the price and restricted it to team leaders only. They didn't give that one a big cannon tho... but it's definitely designed to cope with recoil forces from guns that produce muzzle velocities in the 7km/s range, considering the potential equipment it can take.

[rem1093]

What if it was designed like the Super V. We have bin using the same tech with all our gunpods, to remove recoil.

Hm... you mean that proprietary "Super V" action developed by Kriss USA and used on their Vector SMG?

Considering that's designed for single-barrel, closed-bolt small arms, would that even work in a rotary cannon? I'm not sure if it would, but then I've never had the opportunity to examine any of Kriss's civilian market small arms.

Yes I'm talking about the Vector. A friend of my uncle is a collector (the paperwork, licensing, and insurance is insane) and has one, got to fire it once. It could work on the single barrel, GU-12. And you're right it might not work on a rotary cannon, but then why do all gun pods have to be rotary cannons? Wouldn't a high caliber single barrel chain gun work just as well, exp. in ASC or NG. Where the a 55 to 57 mm round would work as a single barrel gun pod round.
Just out of curiosity, if you built a Vector to scale for a VT. What size round would it have considering the real one fires .45 rounds

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes I'm talking about the Vector. A friend of my uncle is a collector (the paperwork, licensing, and insurance is insane) and has one, got to fire it once.

On a lark, I tracked down the specs and mechanical drawings for the "Super V" system, and it looks pretty solid (on paper, anyway). I'll have to track down a local store or range that has one of the civilian market models and give it a try to see if it's all it's cracked up to be. Even at small arms scale, a 60% reduction in felt recoil and a 95% reduction in muzzle climb seems almost too good to be true.

It could work on the single barrel, GU-12.

It'd add mechanical complexity to the gun, but all in all it should be workable.

And you're right it might not work on a rotary cannon, but then why do all gun pods have to be rotary cannons? Wouldn't a high caliber single barrel chain gun work just as well, exp. in ASC or NG.

Well... the drawback to a single-barreled cannon is that the rate of fire is necessarily lower, you need a more robust cooling system for the barrel, and your odds of an overheat jam are greater. Plus there's also the minor maintenance concern that extended use in the field can reduce the time between cleanings in order to prevent the barrel from fouling. (Rotary guns are inherently advantageous in this respect because, even though they're more complex, all the barrels are dividing the amount of particulate debris and heat from repeated firings, and the rate of fire can be much faster.)

Just out of curiosity, if you built a Vector to scale for a VT. What size round would it have considering the real one fires .45 rounds

It'd be a 57mm, give or take .15mm.

[Jefffar]

Seto, my understanding is that the gun mechanism does not truly reduce recoil so much as lengthen the time it takes for recoil energy to be transferred and slightly redirects the path of the recoil. The result is less perceived recoil, more of a push than a punch. So in terms of math, the recoil is the same, the shooter just notices it less.

The business about the muzzle climb is due to the position of the barrel. Instead of recoiling across the top of your hand and rotating your wrist like a normal handgun, the system transfers the energy straight through the wist joint into the forearm without rotation. This also reduces the feel of the recoil a bit too. This system was used on a number of target pistols developed in Russia that where since banned in competition as being unfair. On a weapon with a fixed stock and a straight-line layout (an M-16) the same is accomplished but the recoil goes straight into the shoulder.

In short, I don't think either of these systems would have any considerable effect on a mecha, especially one that could mechanically lock it's wrist which I strongly believe the VF-1 could.

[glitterboy2098]

Seto, my understanding is that the gun mechanism does not truly reduce recoil so much as lengthen the time it takes for recoil energy to be transferred and slightly redirects the path of the recoil. The result is less perceived recoil, more of a push than a punch. So in terms of math, the recoil is the same, the shooter just notices it less.

yeah. there are other approaches to it too. the G11 caseless assualt rifle used a special 'floating barrel and breach' design that allowed the barrel and breach to move after it fired, allowing a full 3 round burst to be fired off before the recoil was felt, making it very precise. the extra complexity, combined with the caseless ammo and its issues, meant the weapon was never adopted.

of course, there are ways to reduce the effect of recoil without such complex systems. the muzzle brake is a common addition to large calibre cannon, and more than a few small calibre weapons used version of it. (like the cutts Compensator on pre-WW2 Thompson Sub-machineguns.)

[Jefffar]

Muzzle Brake wouldn't' work on a railgun however, no propellant gas to divert.

I would suspect that any sort of conventional recoil buffer (The Vector system is actually one of these, other than the rotational component of the redirect which reduces overall length) might help keep the joints on the valkyrie from wearing out, but wont' help keep the valkyrie from being twisted around by it's own weapon when if fires off foresight in Guardian and Battloid.

[FreelancerMar]

Uhmmmm Last time I checked, Neither the GU-11 or the GU-12 were railguns. The GU-12, being a single barrel weapon probably could concieveably be converted into a railgun.

The GU-11 on the otherhand I would have to say no.

[glitterboy2098]

very true. offhand, i can't think of any robotech or Macross mecha that has a mecha scale railgun. macross has some ship scale stuff, and shadow chronicles added a few infantry scale ones..but i can't think of any mecha scale stuff..

given that true railguns generate large muzzle blasts as the result of the erosion of the rails as the projectile moved down them, one would imagine you could design a muzzle brake that could redirect this blast of hot gas to help reduce the recoil.
coilguns however would be out of luck..

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, my understanding is that the gun mechanism does not truly reduce recoil so much as lengthen the time it takes for recoil energy to be transferred and slightly redirects the path of the recoil. The result is less perceived recoil, more of a push than a punch. So in terms of math, the recoil is the same, the shooter just notices it less.

I'm familiar enough with firearms to know the difference between felt recoil and actual recoil...

very true. offhand, i can't think of any robotech or Macross mecha that has a mecha scale railgun. macross has some ship scale stuff, and shadow chronicles added a few infantry scale ones..but i can't think of any mecha scale stuff..

*coughs* Um... there are actually a couple of mecha-scale railguns in both Macross and Robotech.

Mecha-scale Railguns in Macross

• VF-2SS Valkyrie II (3)
  - The Super Armed Pack's big cannon is an anti-ship railgun
  - Its standard gun pod is a medium railgun
  - Cpt. Nexx's leg-mounted gun pod is a heavy railgun
• VF-2JA Icarus (1)
  - Its standard gun pod is a heavy railgun
• VA-1SS Metal Siren (2)
  - Its standard gun pod(s) are railguns
• Defender EX destroid (4)
  - Its main mount is a quad-linked anti-ship railgun battery
• Tomahawk II destroid (2)
  - Its weapon arms include a pair of railguns
• Giant Monster destroid (6)
  - Its main mount is two blocks of 3 heavy railguns
• HWR-00-Mk.IP Monster (6)
  - Its hands contain triple-mount light railguns, its main mount was planned to use 50cm railguns
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus (1)
  - Its designated marksman variant (-AS) uses a railgun
• VF-25 Messiah (1)
  - Its designated marksman variant (-G) uses a railgun
• VB-6 Konig Monster (4)
  - Its main mount is a quartet of 320mm railguns

Mecha-scale Railguns in Robotech

• Super Cyclone (1)
  - Lugs a light railgun as a rifle
• Silverback (2?)
  - Dorsal mount twin-linked version of same.

given that true railguns generate large muzzle blasts as the result of the erosion of the rails as the projectile moved down them, one would imagine you could design a muzzle brake that could redirect this blast of hot gas to help reduce the recoil.
coilguns however would be out of luck..

Which raises the slightly sticky issue that most (not all) railguns in Macross seem to be recoilless or nearly so, which makes it likely that the oft-repeated mistake of calling a coilgun a railgun happens a lot there. The railguns in the main timeline (e.g. the Konig, the VF-171, the VF-25) definitely display recoil, but use a variety of means to compensate for it. The Konig's just built really damn tough and heavy, and the sniper rifle railgun has a recoil compensator system that's quite powerful.

[glitterboy2098]

Seto, my understanding is that the gun mechanism does not truly reduce recoil so much as lengthen the time it takes for recoil energy to be transferred and slightly redirects the path of the recoil. The result is less perceived recoil, more of a push than a punch. So in terms of math, the recoil is the same, the shooter just notices it less.

I'm familiar enough with firearms to know the difference between felt recoil and actual recoil...

the main big deal being that if the recoil energy is spread out over a longer time, it puts less stress on the firing person/unit. or at least, a different type of stress.

very true. offhand, i can't think of any robotech or Macross mecha that has a mecha scale railgun. macross has some ship scale stuff, and shadow chronicles added a few infantry scale ones..but i can't think of any mecha scale stuff..

*coughs* Um... there are actually a couple of mecha-scale railguns in both Macross and Robotech.

Mecha-scale Railguns in Macross

• VF-2SS Valkyrie II (3)
  - The Super Armed Pack's big cannon is an anti-ship railgun
  - Its standard gun pod is a medium railgun
  - Cpt. Nexx's leg-mounted gun pod is a heavy railgun
• VF-2JA Icarus (1)
  - Its standard gun pod is a heavy railgun
• VA-1SS Metal Siren (2)
  - Its standard gun pod(s) are railguns
• Defender EX destroid (4)
  - Its main mount is a quad-linked anti-ship railgun battery
• Tomahawk II destroid (2)
  - Its weapon arms include a pair of railguns
• Giant Monster destroid (6)
  - Its main mount is two blocks of 3 heavy railguns
• HWR-00-Mk.IP Monster (6)
  - Its hands contain triple-mount light railguns, its main mount was planned to use 50cm railguns
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus (1)
  - Its designated marksman variant (-AS) uses a railgun
• VF-25 Messiah (1)
  - Its designated marksman variant (-G) uses a railgun
• VB-6 Konig Monster (4)
  - Its main mount is a quartet of 320mm railguns

Mecha-scale Railguns in Robotech

• Super Cyclone (1)
  - Lugs a light railgun as a rifle
• Silverback (2?)
  - Dorsal mount twin-linked version of same.

the cyclone and silverback i knew about. they're what i meant by "infantry scale weapons". and the RPG adds lunk's cannon to that list, BTW. i wasn't sure about the macross II stuff. on the show it looks like typical anime energy bolts, complete with sound effects, and i know better than to trust the palladium made RPG. the Macross Frontier stuff is surprising... on screen they look like energy guns, albeit less stereotypical ones than the macross II stuff..

given that true railguns generate large muzzle blasts as the result of the erosion of the rails as the projectile moved down them, one would imagine you could design a muzzle brake that could redirect this blast of hot gas to help reduce the recoil.
coilguns however would be out of luck..

Which raises the slightly sticky issue that most (not all) railguns in Macross seem to be recoilless or nearly so, which makes it likely that the oft-repeated mistake of calling a coilgun a railgun happens a lot there. The railguns in the main timeline (e.g. the Konig, the VF-171, the VF-25) definitely display recoil, but use a variety of means to compensate for it. The Konig's just built really damn tough and heavy, and the sniper rifle railgun has a recoil compensator system that's quite powerful.

even coilguns have recoil. honestly, given the physical design of the weapons from the above examples, some of them are probably coilguns, not railguns. but given how they barely look like projectile weapons at all when fired, i doubt it matters..

[Seto Kaiba]

the cyclone and silverback i knew about. they're what i meant by "infantry scale weapons".

I dunno, they're pretty big... I'd consider 'em mecha-scale, since normal infantry (unpowered) would probably be unable to lift 'em.

i wasn't sure about the macross II stuff. on the show it looks like typical anime energy bolts, complete with sound effects, and i know better than to trust the palladium made RPG. the Macross Frontier stuff is surprising... on screen they look like energy guns, albeit less stereotypical ones than the macross II stuff..

Ah, yeah... it's been a bit of a thing, animators not really knowing what a railgun discharge should look like, there being a noticeable shortage of real-world examples to study. A lot of the time, they end up looking like beam cannons, since they seem to have only recently figured out what it should look like. Generally tho, they're gonna look a little like beams even from a realistic standpoint, since the plasma coming off the round and/or armature (see plasma arc railguns) tends to fan out behind the round and create a visible trail (that looks like a freaking fireball on the Navy's prototypes).

Railguns seem to have been in vogue when Macross II was on the drawing board, since the UN Spacy uses railguns on almost every mecha they have. The mechanical design line art helpfully spells out the english pronunciation of "railgun" on each weapon in katakana. Macross Frontier's railguns are probably the most realistic to date, showing a clear round moving downrange FAR TOO FAST FOR COMFORT that's trailing plasma behind it from the firing process. The designated marksman variant (VF-171AS, VF-25G) use the SSL-9B Dragunov 55mm railgun as their "sniper rifle". It's got a muzzle velocity upwards of 7km/s in space.

[ShadowLogan]

On the issue of Recoil atleast w/n the series and the RPG (1E & 2E) illustrate:
-a Zentreadi does fire what the 2E RPG identifies as a 105mm Shotgun
-Zentreadi aren't typically heavier than a VF-1
-the GU-12 is a 100mm weapon

By this: If a Zentreadi can handle a 105mm weapon, then a VF-1 (atleast in Battloid) should be able to handle a 100mm weapon. (I realize the GU-12 is a burst and the Z-TFG Mk5 is a single shot).

[Seto Kaiba]

On the issue of Recoil atleast w/n the series and the RPG (1E & 2E) illustrate:

Does it illustrate that? Sure. Is it accurate? Probably not.

By this: If a Zentreadi can handle a 105mm weapon, then a VF-1 (atleast in Battloid) should be able to handle a 100mm weapon. (I realize the GU-12 is a burst and the Z-TFG Mk5 is a single shot).

An odd assumption to make... merely being the same (or similar) in caliber doesn't mean the two different types of guns are even remotely similar in terms of muzzle velocity, recoil, effective range, etc. We're talking about two different guns, which are using two different types of ammunition, for different purposes. Shotguns generally have a lower muzzle velocity and a shorter effective range than, say, an anti-tank machine gun or rifle. If the individual loads are close in mass and size, that means a less powerful cartridge and consequentially lower recoil. (If we were to assume this scales similarly to human-size firearms, the shotgun would be expected to have recoil about half what you'd get from the cannon, possibly less.)

(Of course, it must be noted that we do see slightly larger-than-average Zentradi like Quamzin hefting a GU-11 like it's an infantry rifle, so it may still be workable even if your RPG-derived evidence is a little off.)

[ShadowLogan]

Does it illustrate that? Sure. Is it accurate? Probably not.

Which is why I restricted it to the show/game world, not the real world.

Are we sure the GU-12 isn't utilizing an under powered round in the 1E RPG? Or the guns in question have some type of unmentioned recoil suppression method (conventional real world solutions on up to exotic Sci-Fi)?

I bring up the under powered round becase the 78mm guns on the Defender have far greater range than the GU-12, which isn't any better than the GU-11. Then there is the different listings for the 90mm recoilless rifle w/different ranges (not equal to a GU-11) based on weather it is the man-portable version or vehicle mounted. Tack on the 120mm cannon from one of the RDF/NG tanks with similiar range as the GU-11. Atleast by 1E RPG.

[ShadowLogan]

I would assume in the first edition it most certainly is using some sort of underpowered round, as it deals 1D4x10 per somewhat undefined burst of 100mm ammo from the GU-12, compared to 6D6 for a long/medium burst from the 55mm GU-11, which can still go on to deal 1D6x10 for a full melee burst if the user wants to

My copy of the RDF manual puts the GU-12 burst at 10rnds (ROF/Payload), the GU-11 short burst is also 10rnds (200rnd/20shor burst). Damage is just over x2, but the range remains the same for a 10rnd burst.

I'm not even sure if the GU-12 is a PB invention or something they misidentified in 1E, but changed in 2E to be more "accurate". If I was porting it into 2E I would probably just treat it as a variant of Z-TFG w/larger drum (maybe with alternate ammo types based on the VHT's 105mm) for simplicity.

Also, the ranges listed for tank guns are either...

Well alot of numerical game related values seem out of wack in the M.D.C. system.

[glitterboy2098]

most ranges for large vehicle weapons in palladium games tend to be at least half of what they should be. look at the SDC M-1 abrams for example. in the real world the 105mm rifled cannon can reach to at least 8000feet...palladium stats are 4000feet. palladiums 'real world based' missile weapons tend to be a third the range or worse than the weapons they supposedly represent.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmm...new thought, while aboard Breetai's Flagship, Max took "forever" to run out of ammo with a weapon that has 12 seconds of continuous fire internally?! (200 rounds at 1,200 RPM, 1/6th, right?) Somethings fishy here!

What, pray tell, is fishy about the GU-11 having more than one selectable rate of fire? That isn't exactly an uncommon feature in aircraft-mounted rotary cannons. All told, we only see the GU-11 visibly firing at its maximum rate twice... once when Hikaru loses his cool early in that VF-1D early in the original Macross series, and once when Roy dies killing Quamzin during the escape scene in DYRL. At all other times, we see a much lower rate of fire, more like 120rpm than 1,200. (Master File lists either three or four selectable rates, I can't recall which, between 60 and 1,200rpm. The GU-11's predecessor, the GPU-9, canonically has 3 selectable rates of fire: 60rpm, 1,250rpm, and 2,500rpm.)

If it took Max a long time to run out of ammo, then he's very likely just being cautious, using the lower selectable rate of fire.

Are we sure the GU-12 isn't utilizing an under powered round in the 1E RPG? Or the guns in question have some type of unmentioned recoil suppression method (conventional real world solutions on up to exotic Sci-Fi)?

If you go back a few posts, I addressed the possibility of an underpowered round being used for the RPG's GU-12, and recoil suppression methods with official precedent were also talked about briefly.

It's kind of unsound to treat the RPG as a reliable source, especially when it comes to things like firearms, since the writers didn't have a fantastic grasp of the source material, and their evidenced knowledge of firearms is even shakier than that.

I'm not even sure if the GU-12 is a PB invention or something they misidentified in 1E, but changed in 2E to be more "accurate".

It's a PB invention... there's "no such animal" in Macross.

EDIT: Okay, that last part needs qualification. There's no gun pod currently designated the "GU-12", but there's a fair-sized gap in the designation system with several intermediate gun pod models (between the VF-1's GU-11 and the VF-171's GU-14) that could potentially have that designation... incl. the VF-9's, the one shared by the VF-11 and M3 VF-14, or the one used by the VA-14/Fz-109.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd like to point out that the BMP-3 has a 100mm cannon firing 'low powered' rounds. the BMP-3 is 18.5 tons, and said 'low powered' rounds have an effective range of 4000 meters, or about 2 miles.

i think that given palladium's listed 'effective ranges', a relatively low powered round can be justified.

[ESalter]

Also, the ranges listed for tank guns are either...
A) screwy, or flat wrong if you prefer, or...
B) assuming that beyond hose ranges the "older" more "conventional" ammunition is unable to penetrate MDC/Overtechnology/Robotechnology derived metals effectively.

Realistically, I assume a kinetic weapon on Earth becomes less effective as it travels; Palladium's "system" isn't well suited to handle that, hence an somewhat arbitrary "range" number.

[Seto Kaiba]

i think that given palladium's listed 'effective ranges', a relatively low powered round can be justified.

That's putting it mildly...

Also, the ranges listed for tank guns are either...
A) screwy, or flat wrong if you prefer, or...
B) assuming that beyond hose ranges the "older" more "conventional" ammunition is unable to penetrate MDC/Overtechnology/Robotechnology derived metals effectively.

Realistically, I assume a kinetic weapon on Earth becomes less effective as it travels; Palladium's "system" isn't well suited to handle that, hence an somewhat arbitrary "range" number.

Well, that would rather depend on the type of ammunition and weapon in question. A normal rifle round does lose energy as it moves downrange, and thus becomes less effective the longer the range is. The same does not hold true for the "bolter" or "gyrojet" type ammunition mentioned earlier (by me), since it's launched using a chemical cartridge and accelerates as it travels downrange because the bullet is propelled by a tiny rocket motor... thus making it MORE effective at longer ranges (within certain limits). Likewise, there are certain artillery options that wouldn't fare especially well if used at short ranges.

Even so, much of what the Robotech RPG deals with is beam weaponry, which isn't really as affected by those factors as a projectile weapon... the ranges are still wonky, and invariably too short, because the writers don't have a good grasp of the source material or the practical aspects of combat and the weapons involved. (It's not really their fault, per se, as the system was conceived before the days when you could easily obtain that kind of information.)

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not even sure if the GU-12 is a PB invention or something they misidentified in 1E, but changed in 2E to be more "accurate".

It's a PB invention... there's "no such animal" in Macross.

EDIT: Okay, that last part needs qualification. There's no gun pod currently designated the "GU-12", but there's a fair-sized gap in the designation system with several intermediate gun pod models (between the VF-1's GU-11 and the VF-171's GU-14) that could potentially have that designation... incl. the VF-9's, the one shared by the VF-11 and M3 VF-14, or the one used by the VA-14/Fz-109.

That's great and all, but was the source for creating 1E RPG's GU-12? Just because the OSM did not have a GU-12 at the time, doesn't mean PB created it since we know they misidentified items based on the OSM in 1E.

Gaps in the number sequence have several options like: unselected design competitors (F-17, F-23), superstition (ex: #13), canceled programs, developed for other users but assigned a number slot in your inventory (F-20) anyway, etc.

[Seto Kaiba]

I just came across a VF-1J holding what is supposed to be a GU-12 gunpod, it looks like OSM level work, but might have been unused material.

Anyone know anything about this? It certainly looks like the bore is large enough, but there is no where for ammo of that caliber to fit with this one.

I do... which is a plot twist that surprises nobody.

Like the previous piece, that is also concept art from the development of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series. It's, I think, the third gun pod design concept made in the evolution of the VF-1 design. The first was a dinky little thing that looks like the RGM-79 beam spray gun, the second is that tommygun-lookin' thing, and this is the third. The fourth was the final GU-11 design. It appears on pg154 of Macross: Perfect Memory, and on the cover and pg35 of Shoji Kawamori's Macross Design Works book, and only ever on that one piece of art. No information exists for that weapon.

[Seto Kaiba]

Rail gun? We have those on our EBSIS Excaliber for the Invid Invasion. 5 shot detachable mag under each gun contains a guided rocket shell that also gets a magentic rail boost out the barrel.

Hrm... "Excalibur" is the RPG name for what again, the Tomahawk?

Using a railgun in the same general level as the US Navy's modern prototypes, that would almost certainly be workable. I'd think it'd raise the maintenance requirements of the gun arms a little, but superhard OTMat rails and easy access to things like room temperature superconductors would grease that proverbial pan quite nicely. (I don't think the rocket assist would really be necessary tho... and running high voltages through explosive materials like rocket fuel seems like a really bad idea, the kind that would end in a large explosion inside the gun barrel.)

[obsessed]

Scaled up cannon DO NOT always have cases scaled up to the same ratio. World War 2 had short brass 55 and 57mm cannon rounds (Japanese AA 57x121 mm and German AA 55x 175 mm). Each fired a HE shell approx 1.5kg. Both were versioms of 37 and 30 mm cannon scaled up.

The German anti tank 50 x 419R mm PAK 38 was used as a Bordkanone firing a 2 kg shell 835 m/s. Effective armor penetration of 75mm in 500 m.

Russian AA 57×348 mm semi rimmed fires 1000 m/s. Maximum optical range 4km but actually most effective from 460 to 1500 meters.

German AA 50 x 346B mm Flak 41 firing 840 m/s. Maximum range 10,350 m but effective 3,050 m.

Russian anti tank 57 × 480 mm rimmed firing roughly 2 to 3kg shells 1000 to 1200 m/s. Maximum range of 8.4 km. Effective against armor at 1 km.

Swedish 57 mm × 438 mm naval gun firing a 2.8 kg shell at 1,035 m/s. Maximum range 17 km, effective range 8.5 km. Effective AA with HE prox fuze 7 km.

My point? The GU-11 carried SHORT case rounds with the RPG smaller range. It was a spray, up close and personal dogfight weapon.

I also believe Palladium made effective ranges for simplified gameplay. Effective range has no penalty to roll. Over effective range adds penalties up to maximum range. Adding more rolls and rules would slow gameplay.

[Seto Kaiba]

My point? The GU-11 carried SHORT case rounds with the RPG smaller range. It was a spray, up close and personal dogfight weapon.

Not really consistent with the line art... but immaterial in the long run, since Palladium's ranges for the old GU-11 with its older types of ammunition aren't actually that far off the nominal effective range. It was all about the massive stopping power of those armor-piercing HEACA rounds at ranges of a kilometer or so. A GU-11(A)'s round may be almost twice the caliber, but it's hitting something like 48 times as hard.

Later variants of GU-11 in the OSM added the option for rocket-propelled rounds that further increased the stopping power at range.

I also believe Palladium made effective ranges for simplified gameplay. Effective range has no penalty to roll. Over effective range adds penalties up to maximum range. Adding more rolls and rules would slow gameplay.

I think there's a simpler reason... Palladium likely just copied the effective range of the closest modern analog to the GU-11: the GAU-8/A "Avenger" rotary cannon from the Fairchild Republic A-10A Thunderbolt. A move that, by coincidence, got them in the same ballpark as the OSM's creators WRT effective ranges.

[obsessed]

Let's imagine that the GU-11 fired a shorter case. Let's imagine more modern higher velocity propellant was packed in. Let's imagine the 55mm was packed with HE.

Gu-11 shell casing http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/sdfma ... gshell.jpg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/sdfmacross/vf-1j.htm
Not sure is this classifies as "canon" line art.

Below is the previously linked line art http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossdyrl/ ... ernals.gif

Third from left is the German 55mm x 175 mm (rebated rim, smaller diameter than case) http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/42-60exp.jpg
Also second from right the same 55mm http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Oe1b.jpg

[Seto Kaiba]

Let's imagine that the GU-11 fired a shorter case. Let's imagine more modern higher velocity propellant was packed in. Let's imagine the 55mm was packed with HE.

Well, to be fair, there's almost no detail in Robotech to suppose any of those things on... but in the Robotech 'verse, weapons seem to be rather NERF'd compared to their OSM counterparts thanks to Harmony Gold opting to scale offensive power against MOSPEADA.*

Macross, on the other hand, doesn't really need to "imagine" those... because most are established facts instead. The GU-11 case wasn't exactly short for the size of the round, and it WAS using advanced and extremely powerful propellants that let it achieve almost twice the muzzle velocity of a modern GAU-8/A 30mm rotary cannon, and the two most commonly used of its six mentioned ammo types WERE forms of advanced HE rounds.

Still, though the GU-11 was often used in relatively close-quarters engagements, Palladium's listed range (if we assume it was the "average effective range") is very close to what's listed for the gun in Japanese source material for the original show.



* Because they based Shadow Chronicles on MOSPEADA, their first quantification of heavy weaponry indicated that weapons in RT are probably no more potent than the ones that existed in MOSPEADA... where the fighter-carried cannons are comparable to the A-10A's.

[Jefffar]

Scaled up cannon DO NOT always have cases scaled up to the same ratio. World War 2 had short brass 55 and 57mm cannon rounds (Japanese AA 57x121 mm and German AA 55x 175 mm). Each fired a HE shell approx 1.5kg. Both were versioms of 37 and 30 mm cannon scaled up.

The German anti tank 50 x 419R mm PAK 38 was used as a Bordkanone firing a 2 kg shell 835 m/s. Effective armor penetration of 75mm in 500 m.

Russian AA 57×348 mm semi rimmed fires 1000 m/s. Maximum optical range 4km but actually most effective from 460 to 1500 meters.

German AA 50 x 346B mm Flak 41 firing 840 m/s. Maximum range 10,350 m but effective 3,050 m.

Russian anti tank 57 × 480 mm rimmed firing roughly 2 to 3kg shells 1000 to 1200 m/s. Maximum range of 8.4 km. Effective against armor at 1 km.

Swedish 57 mm × 438 mm naval gun firing a 2.8 kg shell at 1,035 m/s. Maximum range 17 km, effective range 8.5 km. Effective AA with HE prox fuze 7 km.

My point? The GU-11 carried SHORT case rounds with the RPG smaller range. It was a spray, up close and personal dogfight weapon.

I also believe Palladium made effective ranges for simplified gameplay. Effective range has no penalty to roll. Over effective range adds penalties up to maximum range. Adding more rolls and rules would slow gameplay.

While the technical drawings how a very conventional bottleneck cartridge for the 55mm, at least one screen capture from the show has been posted showing a stream of stubby, straight-walled cartridges similar to gigantic .45 ACPs ejecting from a firing GU-11. Given the hierarchy of official information we have in Robotech, that is technically the most correct interpretation of the 55mm round.

I have been looking for a few days but I couldn't find where I saw this screen capture posted. It may have been on a now defunct forum.

[Seto Kaiba]

While the technical drawings how a very conventional bottleneck cartridge for the 55mm, [...]

Actually, the technical drawing and animation model sheets go both ways... as well a third that looks a bit like a modern APFSDS round. There are at least six types of ammunition for the Howard GU-11(A) that're identified in Macross sources, including ones which fit all three visual presentations, so the three are likely all correct for different types of ammunition.

at least one screen capture from the show has been posted showing a stream of stubby, straight-walled cartridges similar to gigantic .45 ACPs ejecting from a firing GU-11.

Eh... if you look at the animation model sheets for the scene in question (#10 Cut 379, according to scene information printed on the art in Macross: Perfect Memory), the shell casings do what seems to be slight bottlenecking, but they have a mostly straight profile. Proportionally, they're a lot longer than that .45ACP case though... more like a .44 Remington Magnum case.

[Jefffar]

The screen capture I'm referring to them has proportions very similar to a .45 ACP, short, stubby and straight-walled. Wish I could find it. I saw it a few years ago in another debate about the GU-11 on a different site.

[Seto Kaiba]

The screen capture I'm referring to them has proportions very similar to a .45 ACP, short, stubby and straight-walled. Wish I could find it. I saw it a few years ago in another debate about the GU-11 on a different site.

Not sure what screen capture you're referring to, because I went straight to #10 Cut 379 and saw exactly what the line art shows... a straight case, but a fairly long one like a .44 Remington Magnum or .50 S&W.

The proof is in the pudding, and dessert is served at 21:37 in Ep10 "Blind Game"*... which shows us cases roughly as long as the entire ejection port.

(Time code may not apply to Robotech version... I used the ADV Films uncut Macross release.)

[glitterboy2098]

can be seen here: http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

agreed they look more pistol like than rifle like, but the definition on that pic is a bit low. might be worth trying to get a screencap off one of the protoculture editions, see if more detail pops up.

it looks like it is from the episode where Vermillion squad is trying to rescue Lisa and the radar plane..

[Seto Kaiba]

can be seen here: http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/v ... dshell.gif

Colorized version of the animation model sheet for #10 Cut 379, as found on Macross: Perfect Memory page 155.

agreed they look more pistol like than rifle like, but the definition on that pic is a bit low. might be worth trying to get a screencap off one of the protoculture editions, see if more detail pops up.

You'll get better color clarity and a more vibrant picture, but you won't find more detail I'm afraid... that's just how that scene is.

[obsessed]

Lots of line art on here http://seesaawiki.jp/harmony-gold_japan/d/%A5Х륭%A5꡼%A1%CAVF-1%20%A5%B7%A5꡼%A5%BA%A1%CB#content_29_12

Note: the line art with GU-11 on the loading trolley. My Japanese is rusty BUT pretty sure it has 2,000 meters per second "...m/秒" and air to air range of nearly 1100m "空対空...程距離約 1,100m 程".

Note this is NOT anti air range, this is air to air, as in dogfighting. The real life 20mm Vulcan has an effective air to air engagement of only 810m, but the anti-air 1,490m (and max range 5,500m as fired from CIWS).

I hapenned to punch the 55mm stats into a balistics calculator and at 2000 m/s, the round does not drop below effective velocity until 2,500 m. Forward velocity of the aircraft adds to muzzle velocity, so that probbly explains that 2,000 m/s.