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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:46 am
  

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Now granted, Shadow Chronicles suffered from A. HG doing very little with it, B. evidently having a lot more editorial control, and C. the license getting pulled.

But for all that it gave us such "gems" as Lancer's Rockers, I cannot help but feel that the first edition had a lot more room for stories that weren't focused solely on the primary storyline. Sure the EBSISI was invented whole cloth (and would probably need to be changed now) complete with mechs taken from the Southern Cross power armor, but it let you do more that wasn't directly tied to the main storyline. There was a lot more room for "a gang of PCs get into adventures that will never involve the big issue of the day."

What say you?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:00 am
  

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I'd say the second edition still has that room, but didn't spend nearly as much time and effort on fleshing out things in that room for us to play with.

BTW I'd you read the random encounters section of Shadow Chronicles ... well how do you say it's the EBSIS without saying it's the EBSIS?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:55 am
  

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I will say there are some things I think they did better in 1E than 2E.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:39 pm
  

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I started playing Palladium with Robotech 1e so I have so I have a huge soft spot for it so yes, I agree overall 1e is better. However, there are a lot of things I like in 2e.

2e has the following:
-Better character generation. I love the table that allows characters to choose what attribute set they want to be highest and then roll it that way and since all the other attributes are basically average it doesn't make them too over powered.
-Better OCCs. The OCCs have more of a hook and the MOSs really provide a lot of variation.
-Lots of great new rules including for things like Electronic Warfare. One of my original Rifts players helped me come up with some basic jamming rules after Mutants in Orbit came out that I largely used for like 20 years in all my PB games but after 2e Macross and Southern Cross SBs came out I switched to those rules with almost no modifications.

For 1e:
-The Mechs are better and I don't mean tougher or more deadly I mean just a little more logical and better planned out especially when you look at missile loadouts. Want to really see this compare the 2 Beta fighters.
-Better/more interesting world information. Robotech is kind of fun but much like Star Wars you can't base an RPG around movie characters. The PCs have to be able to go out do some stuff and that requires world information that goes beyond just the Zentraedi, the masters and the Invid.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:50 pm
  

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Lots of nostalgic feelings beeing expressed here

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:23 am
  

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Well, let's just say it like this : my group decided to merge both editions and did go back to the comics and novel for better comprehension of the timeline, which included to create some missing ships and mecha from scratch. Since the game started, we not only did have to use the 1st ed for things such a context, but also for missing Xp tables, breakable material rules, repair rules, "learning" rules, piloting manoeuvre rules and a few others.

Therefore, without much nostalgia (since I discovered Robotech and both RPG editions almost at once), I'll say the 2nd was great in terms of system and crunchy details but felt mostly incomplete though somewhat higher quality. Though to be fair, it did better in some parts of the timeline than others. Overall, palladium did a good job the first time around, and seeing the UEEF manual, I'd have been happy to see what the 2nd would have been without such tight limitations from HG on the first few books.
All in all, I'm not a fan of the SMG system, but I'm still waiting my copy of "homefront" to cover stuff that should have been in. And I'll probably order Amongst the Stars too, if only to get a complete description and stats for the Haydonites. (It will need complete conversion to Palladium, but this also will be better than nothing.)

So in that sense, at least 1st ed didn't felt like a 6 book teaser.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:14 am
  

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I think that was a big problem, and it of course wasn't Palladium's fault. I think it's pretty clear that between them, UEEG and genesis pits were setting up for some interesting stuff, and a lot of plans got cut completely short by the decision to pull the license.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:37 am
  

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mech798 wrote:
I think that was a big problem, and it of course wasn't Palladium's fault. I think it's pretty clear that between them, UEEG and genesis pits were setting up for some interesting stuff, and a lot of plans got cut completely short by the decision to pull the license.

also the first books (the core book and the macross and masters sourcebook) were done in a time when HG was heavy in its "we will vet every word you write" mode, while trying to build a solid continuity with the wildstorm comics and shadow chronicles projects. so PB didn't have the freedom to expand the setting the way they did in 1st ed (where they basically had free reign and minimal source material from HG to use.. which is why the mecha were often so wildly inaccurate. for example, the 1st ed Beta's weapon loadout. given that PB did the video tapes for New Gen you;d have thought they'd have caught that.)

the New Gen sourcebook, genesis pits, and UEEF marines were done after HG loosened up control (around the same time they gave up on the tricky continuity stuff and instead authorized the Titan Comics alternate universe.. which eventually established the existence of a Robotech multiverse. i'll spare you my rant on that whole thing)

and i can say that i know that there was a book series in development at the time it got cancelled, Ghost Fleet, which certainly would have been having some interesting stuff. i've had conversations with the author at the time helping him resolve some continuity issues and from the sounds of things it would have been about ASC forces that evacuated off earth when the invid arrived fighting alongside the UEEF in Tirol space agaisnt remnant Masters Empire forces and the Regent's Invid.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:07 pm
  

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1E was the second Palladium RPG I read, after BtS 1E. It is what brought me into the Robotech fandom. The RPG worldbuilding led me to the novels' worldbuilding, and somewhere in between is where I planted my version of the universe. Of course I've made my modifications to it, but they are minimal. And all in theory anyways, as I've never actually played it.

I like 2E, and appreciate it for what it is. But as a direction for the RPG, I'll pass on it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:51 pm
  

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mech798 wrote:
and i can say that i know that there was a book series in development at the time it got cancelled, Ghost Fleet, which certainly would have been having some interesting stuff. i've had conversations with the author at the time helping him resolve some continuity issues and from the sounds of things it would have been about ASC forces that evacuated off earth when the invid arrived fighting alongside the UEEF in Tirol space against remnant Masters Empire forces and the Regent's Invid.


Awww, man!!! That would have been awesome! It would have been like the Robotech we need though not necessarily deserved...
I want a spin-off series on this now. You mean as in new RPG books or novels and comics stuff?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:57 pm
  

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I do think that both have a lot of room for story telling. Neither really confine players to only following the series. The later books from both editions do open the universe up for more story ideas. Not that they're required but they are helpful.

That said, I end up using both as there things in each edition that I like and dislike. They also help fill in blanks in the other. Unfortunately, there's still blanks so I also use material found online, and other OCCs and skills from other Palladium RPGs to fill in things that neither edition has.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
and i can say that i know that there was a book series in development at the time it got cancelled, Ghost Fleet, which certainly would have been having some interesting stuff. i've had conversations with the author at the time helping him resolve some continuity issues and from the sounds of things it would have been about ASC forces that evacuated off earth when the invid arrived fighting alongside the UEEF in Tirol space agaisnt remnant Masters Empire forces and the Regent's Invid.


That does sound awesome. I don't suppose it could be posted as fan work, could it?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:54 pm
  

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Thats a question to bring up with Chuck Walton, who was writing it. I don't think he'd gotten much actually written yet by the time HG yanked the license though. I mostly was advising on timeline issues.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:45 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
Lots of nostalgic feelings beeing expressed here


Second this; I have very place-specific fond memories of getting my first Robotech 1st ed.). It was the first complete RPG I ever bought). Spent a very happy summer collecting the first set of books and reading them on a cottage porch, and beginning to populate mini-worlds with characters.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:24 pm
  

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While some of this is nostalgia there are some definite deficiencies in 2e compared to 1e, and as I said before, mostly around world building. I have had this discussion on these forums before, but if you stick to just what is in the animated show and the currently approved comics there is really nothing to play. I mean unless you are playing the characters from the show. The additional material in the 1e books were what kept my players wanting to go back to Robotech 1e after Rifts came out.

Like I said 2e has a lot of improvements but it is not a perfect replacement.

Jefffar wrote:
Lots of nostalgic feelings beeing expressed here


Second this; I have very place-specific fond memories of getting my first Robotech 1st ed.). It was the first complete RPG I ever bought). Spent a very happy summer collecting the first set of books and reading them on a cottage porch, and beginning to populate mini-worlds with characters.[/quote]
I have similar memories of 1e. I started playing with some friends when I was 15 in 1989. These guys made up first Rifts groups and I am still friends with most of them to this day. After playing for about 7 or 8 months I was on a trip to Chicago and was lucky enough to find a gaming store where I purchased all 4 main books at the same time which pretty much wiped me out money wise.

I spent the next several weeks making piles of characters from all the books, including at least 1 for each army of the Southern Cross and at least 2 of each sentinel alien. I still have folders of these characters sitting at the bottom of my filing cabinet.

It was so much fun to create my world with these characters that I started GMing the game and then later Rifts, in fact no Robotech 1e and it is highly likely that I never would have discovered PB. So not entirely nostalgia but yes, a lot of it.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:47 pm
  

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I started with 1E way back in 1989 (My first Palladium RPG) and so I am very fond of it. I still have my first Robotech character as well (Erik Black, 9th level VF Pilot) to this day. Macross was my favorite time period but the setting I played and ran in most was Sentinals (love that book and the Field Guide). When Shadow Chronicles came out I liked some of the updates and there were others that I did not (too much trying to make it "Real" as far as ranks for pilots and other stuff). So now I go through and take from both and use the things I like in my games, no worry of cannon or continuity, just having fun with a cool setting.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:30 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I started playing Palladium with Robotech 1e so I have so I have a huge soft spot for it so yes, I agree overall 1e is better. . . .


Same here; it was my first RPG and I even converted Battletech to be played by Palladium's rules (and vice-versa). I did enjoy Robotech 1e, but, I've kinda moved on. Sure, I like Macross and all the Robotech mecha, but, when I play Robotech, it's to another rule-set like Mekton or Cyberpunk:2020. I've converted a few of Palladium's Robotech to those other game, but, the specs are as per the first-edition rules. For instance, Mekton has tons of psionic-powers, but, only the powers listed in the first edition books are used.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:23 am
  

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I prefer 2nd ed for the more accurate mecha, though still not as accurate as they could be, but I just ported over ebsis and merchant republic as well as the anti-un from macross as the anti-ueg.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:37 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Thats a question to bring up with Chuck Walton, who was writing it. I don't think he'd gotten much actually written yet by the time HG yanked the license though. I mostly was advising on timeline issues.



That's a shame. It sounds really cool.

Warshield73 wrote:
While some of this is nostalgia there are some definite deficiencies in 2e compared to 1e, and as I said before, mostly around world building. I have had this discussion on these forums before, but if you stick to just what is in the animated show and the currently approved comics there is really nothing to play. I mean unless you are playing the characters from the show. The additional material in the 1e books were what kept my players wanting to go back to Robotech 1e after Rifts came out.



I've never understood sticking with the show. Sure it's one way to play but its also limiting. The universe of the show has so much one can play in, even before things like the EBSIS get added.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:27 pm
  

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OK so current missile system that PB uses now was developed for RT 1E Long, Medium, Short, Oh no Invid Invasion has tiny missiles that fit into cyclones = mini-missile add on.
Rifts comes around and only things the size of ICBMs are Long Range Missiles and weapons the size of a FIM-92 Stinger becomes mini-missile. Okay sure, we'll mark that up as differences in world. Rifts has higher MD density and RT has better missiles. Then comes RT 2E and instead of the alpha having a bunch of short range missiles they're all suddenly mini-missiles... WHAT? How is a missile 10 times the size the same as the little pop-can missiles in a Cyclone? Going back and retconning the origin of the missiles so it lines up with its predecessors is as dumb as calling video game role playing simulators RPGs and renaming the original TTRPGs. :nh:

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:02 pm
  

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i think part of it is the terminology.. much of the OSM materials for New Gen and Macross refer to "micromissiles", meaning stuff smaller than an antishipping missile or sidewinder/AMRAAM type missile. so some of it may have come from that. but the only time i can think of an SRm becoming a Mini in 2nd ed is on the zentreadi stuff.. and that i think was done mostly to help keep them from becoming too powerful, given the mecha that did use missiles other than anti-ship stuff tended to carry huge payloads of them and fire massive volleys of them. personally for the zentreadi systems, i've houseruled that their missiles are just larger than earth's versions of the same yields, but benefit from even their mini's having guidance systems, and their missiles are basically maintence free and last practically forever in storage. (a trait i borrowed from the japanese macross sequels.. zentreadi hardware is basically designed to almost never break short of being blown to fragments. which is partly how they could get by without having knowledge of how tech works and more repair skills than "replace component with provided spare part")

in most cases the missile shrinking was reasonable. the super-packs of the VF-1 had MRM's in 1st ed, when the missiles it was firing was a tenth the size of the anti-fighter missiles on its wings. in 2nd ed they fire SRm's, which makes much more sense. the same went for some of the ASC vehicles.. what used to be rocket tanks and fighters firing absurdly tiny LRM's now fire MRM's.

(and i'd argue that the Stinger would be an SRM.. it's the Hydra-70 and LAW rockets which are the closest real world minimissile analogs.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:31 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Then comes RT 2E and instead of the alpha having a bunch of short range missiles they're all suddenly mini-missiles... WHAT?

Actually the Alpha's MM-60 is still exclusively an SRM system as it was in 1E (at least in the Manga, not sure about the full-size), but that system is now supplemented by the MMDS-8 Mini-Missile System that was NOT PRESENT in 1E.

As glitterboy2098 said, the Zentreadi Female Power Armor saw that downgrade, but so did the RDF Tomahawk's 6-shot raised shoulder missile launcher (1E = MRM, 2E=SRM) and the x4 box leg (1E=SRM, 2E=Mini), the REF Spartan had its Leg SRMs removed in its 2E revamp, and the VR-052 Cyclone had its GR-103's removed in 2E that it had in 1E (not saying it wasn't without justification, just that it occurred).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:02 am
  

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The problem is the use of micro missiles in macross...

Based size alone there's no way an alpha carries 60 srms while the rau at about twice its height and at least 4 times it's overall size should be limited to 120 mini missiles.

Theh should have just created a robotech exclusive micro missile class.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:32 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Based size alone there's no way an alpha carries 60 srms while the rau at about twice its height and at least 4 times it's overall size should be limited to 120 mini missiles.

x4 its overall size, I think you're being a bit generous (>2x height x >2x length x >3x width = >12x).

The thing is that there are other factors that go into the design of a mecha that could influence various aspects. We can't just use raw size and go this does/doesn't make sense as an example just look at the Beta, it is literally larger than the Alpha (>1.5x height x ~1.5x length x >1.5x width = ~>3.375x) yet packs in fewer SRMs (internal/conformal), the same is also true for the Condor Battloid. So I wouldn't take raw size alone as an indication if a missile count feels right for a mecha of a given size.

Not that I don't agree with you that the "Mini-Missile" classification Palladium chose to use is a head scratcher. If the OSM uses terms like "micro" to refer to size and not range, or define what they consider "micro-range" in the OSM and how that would translate to the generic Palladium Missile Table (it could be that OSM "micro" equates to "short" or "mini" on the PB table, then you have sources like RT.com Infopedia using "short" that where broken down into SRM or Mini). Palladium could also have just plugged in their own "micro-missile" (Rifts DB3 PW SB) as the standard to use for OSM "micro-missile" instead of inventing a new category (even if only for RT).

Really given the general trend in missile launcher placement in Robotech Mecha, I have to wonder how/why they can't all be considered guided in 2E (as they are in the Macross2 RPG, which even had Mini-Missiles as guided, or even at the 1E RT level).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:36 pm
  

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They should all be guided...

I also came up with rules for firing at multiple targets with one volley like we see in the show

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:13 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
They should all be guided...

I also came up with rules for firing at multiple targets with one volley like we see in the show

I use the weapon system skill with a sliding penalty for each additional target to lock on to the targets, just out of curiosity what do you use?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:39 pm
  

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I'll PM it to you.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:06 am
  

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1E had better stats for many (not all) mecha, but 2E was a little closer (not by much, sadly) to what we saw in the Tv series. Both editions have extreme flaws as both took extreme liberties with what was in the show. And while that's fine in and of itself, its lead to rather idiotic claims by fans over the years confusing what was obvious in the Tv series (when you view the series, in totality, on its own WITHOUT outside interference) with information not in the Tv series. Claims of "game balance" by some are utter and complete copouts, btw. Same with nerfing what was shown in the series in favor of not making Robotech overshadow other game lines (sorry, there is no way that Rifts Earth of the Golden Age had higher technology than Robotech Earth post-The Macross Saga).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:30 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
1E had better stats for many (not all) mecha, but 2E was a little closer (not by much, sadly) to what we saw in the Tv series. Both editions have extreme flaws as both took extreme liberties with what was in the show. And while that's fine in and of itself, its lead to rather idiotic claims by fans over the years confusing what was obvious in the Tv series (when you view the series, in totality, on its own WITHOUT outside interference) with information not in the Tv series.

To me this is always confusing. Are you talking about viewing the Robotech series as aired in the US or the source material? Is Shadow Chronicles part of this?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Claims of "game balance" by some are utter and complete copouts, btw. Same with nerfing what was shown in the series in favor of not making Robotech overshadow other game lines

Not sure where you get the nerfing. 1e mechs were created before rifts and were still comparable with early robot vehicles.

The Mechs in 2e are at least as good as stuff in Rifts and most are superior, especially in weapons ranges. Add in new features like EW that STILL have not migrated over to Rifts and you get what are superior vehicles. Now I can't say if they are less powerful than they should be from the show but that is mostly because the show is highly inconsistent, like most TV shows. Now game balance is an issue, for instance in the cartoon we see multiple times a TBP destroying a Valkyrie with 1 hit from the main guns but in a TTRPG you do not want that.

The only way a TTRPG can get perfect stats for something is if the creator of that series laid out specific stats and stuck to it during the series. For instance if you are creating gaming stats for the ships in the Honor Harrington series that is easy as Webber lays everything out and sticks to it. Robotech doesn't have anything like that.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
(sorry, there is no way that Rifts Earth of the Golden Age had higher technology than Robotech Earth post-The Macross Saga).

Normally I say don't cross the streams, comparing settings like this is difficult, but in this case it is complicated. Robotech has multiple planet wide catastrophic events that limit development, but it has access to advanced alien technology to grow off of. The thing is, at least if Shadow Chronicles is to be believed, most of that technology is dependent on Protoculture which is...shall we say destabilizing. Also, from a real-world perspective this is incredibly limiting in terms of technological development. Mass Effect covers this well where the Reapers leave behind Element Zero and Mass Effect technology to coerce development of races along the lines they want. Rifts Earth, at least as near as can be determined, has developed all native technology. They built large orbital habitats (what we would have considered large in 1990's) and large space programs in addition to all the large mechs and advanced aircraft and submersible aircraft carriers.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:55 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
The problem is the use of micro missiles in macross...

Based size alone there's no way an alpha carries 60 srms while the rau at about twice its height and at least 4 times it's overall size should be limited to 120 mini missiles.

Theh should have just created a robotech exclusive micro missile class.


AHHHHH but all of the missiles were Robotech exclusive until Rifts came out.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:00 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
They should all be guided...

I also came up with rules for firing at multiple targets with one volley like we see in the show


And again the Rifted up Robotech.

All RT missiles were guided except mini-missiles IIRC. But then after Rifts they applied the Rifts missile rules back onto the original source of missiles. How the heck can a swarm of missiles not be guided? I could understand a volley of missiles like an M270A1 MLRS rapid fire volley... but not a Robotech swarm of dancing missiles.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:05 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
1E had better stats for many (not all) mecha, but 2E was a little closer (not by much, sadly) to what we saw in the Tv series. Both editions have extreme flaws as both took extreme liberties with what was in the show. And while that's fine in and of itself, its lead to rather idiotic claims by fans over the years confusing what was obvious in the Tv series (when you view the series, in totality, on its own WITHOUT outside interference) with information not in the Tv series.

To me this is always confusing. Are you talking about viewing the Robotech series as aired in the US or the source material? Is Shadow Chronicles part of this?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Claims of "game balance" by some are utter and complete copouts, btw. Same with nerfing what was shown in the series in favor of not making Robotech overshadow other game lines

Not sure where you get the nerfing. 1e mechs were created before rifts and were still comparable with early robot vehicles.

The Mechs in 2e are at least as good as stuff in Rifts and most are superior, especially in weapons ranges. Add in new features like EW that STILL have not migrated over to Rifts and you get what are superior vehicles. Now I can't say if they are less powerful than they should be from the show but that is mostly because the show is highly inconsistent, like most TV shows. Now game balance is an issue, for instance in the cartoon we see multiple times a TBP destroying a Valkyrie with 1 hit from the main guns but in a TTRPG you do not want that.

The only way a TTRPG can get perfect stats for something is if the creator of that series laid out specific stats and stuck to it during the series. For instance if you are creating gaming stats for the ships in the Honor Harrington series that is easy as Webber lays everything out and sticks to it. Robotech doesn't have anything like that.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
(sorry, there is no way that Rifts Earth of the Golden Age had higher technology than Robotech Earth post-The Macross Saga).

Normally I say don't cross the streams, comparing settings like this is difficult, but in this case it is complicated. Robotech has multiple planet wide catastrophic events that limit development, but it has access to advanced alien technology to grow off of. The thing is, at least if Shadow Chronicles is to be believed, most of that technology is dependent on Protoculture which is...shall we say destabilizing. Also, from a real-world perspective this is incredibly limiting in terms of technological development. Mass Effect covers this well where the Reapers leave behind Element Zero and Mass Effect technology to coerce development of races along the lines they want. Rifts Earth, at least as near as can be determined, has developed all native technology. They built large orbital habitats (what we would have considered large in 1990's) and large space programs in addition to all the large mechs and advanced aircraft and submersible aircraft carriers.


What's a TTRPG? Why are you adding letters to the origin of the acronym? Why aren't you modifying its successors instead of the origin?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:01 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
To me this is always confusing. Are you talking about viewing the Robotech series as aired in the US or the source material? Is Shadow Chronicles part of this?


Generally speaking, I only include what is shown in the 85 episodes of Robotech as it aired. Where The Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles DON'T conflict with the information from the 85 episodes (and in large measure, they do), I will include them.

Quote:
Not sure where you get the nerfing. 1e mechs were created before rifts and were still comparable with early robot vehicles.

The Mechs in 2e are at least as good as stuff in Rifts and most are superior, especially in weapons ranges. Add in new features like EW that STILL have not migrated over to Rifts and you get what are superior vehicles. Now I can't say if they are less powerful than they should be from the show but that is mostly because the show is highly inconsistent, like most TV shows. Now game balance is an issue, for instance in the cartoon we see multiple times a TBP destroying a Valkyrie with 1 hit from the main guns but in a TTRPG you do not want that.


There is a way to both simulate what we see in the series and the RPG rules, but it requires HP/SDC/MDC to be something different....

Quote:
Normally I say don't cross the streams, comparing settings like this is difficult, but in this case it is complicated. Robotech has multiple planet wide catastrophic events that limit development, but it has access to advanced alien technology to grow off of. The thing is, at least if Shadow Chronicles is to be believed, most of that technology is dependent on Protoculture which is...shall we say destabilizing.


Not destabilizing when you realize the UEF has a mountain of it and can power everything from cities, bases, starships, shuttles, mecha and vehicles following the 1st Robotech War. What is "out of gas" for nearly 6 million Zentraedi ships would, even if they were only able to salvage ~1-2% of it, would probably fuel Earth for hundreds of years....


Last edited by Rabid Southern Cross Fan on Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:52 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
They should all be guided...

I also came up with rules for firing at multiple targets with one volley like we see in the show

I agree they should all be guided, but it shouldn't take a "house rule" to fix something like this that they should have easily gotten right (and did get right in 1E).

Warshield73 wrote:
Not sure where you get the nerfing. 1e mechs were created before rifts and were still comparable with early robot vehicles.

The Logan Veritech Fighter in 2E is nerfed:
-nose gun is shown to fire x3 more bolts in the animation than is quoted, it's also shown to be capable of blowing blue bioroids with one burst (something you could technically do in 1E with a "fresh" unit on a Critical Hit) that is impossible in 2E
-1E gave it some pretty beefy Wing Shields in terms of MDC, which is based on the animation where we see it used to deflect incoming fire as if the wing assembly is a shield.

You also have the stopping power of the Alpha gunpods (and other TRM and TSC main book full mecha gunpods) being under powered compared to TMS, even though they are shown to be able to drop respective "red shirt" enemy mecha just as easily in the animation.

You also have the nerfing of a large number of missile launchers and systems to the status of unguided that should be guided and where guided in 1E.

ASC mecha with secondary internal energy weapons that force them to use a regenerating payload system, something that the TMS and NG era units don't have to contend with. For example, the Specter Fighter has limited payload but the Conbat Fighter has unlimited (TMS era use projectiles so they have a payload), or the Head Energy Guns on the nt-B/nt-PA suits of the ASC have payloads (regenerate) but not the TZ-IV laser on two TMS Destroids. It could also be argued that in some cases these guns are also under powered.

I have to also say that I find 2E to have a bias toward TMS being the "top" and TRM to be the "bottom", where 1E was largely free of that bias (sure the ASC mecha tended to be "light" on MDC, but they also came with parry shields to make up for it and their main (non-missile) weapon systems are toward the top in terms of range/rof/damage, especially if you don't consider the various Destroid BFGs).

Zer0 Key wrote:
What's a TTRPG? Why are you adding letters to the origin of the acronym?

TTRPG = Table Top Role Playing Game.

This is used to distinguish it from Computer/Video-Game "Role Playing Games" which also use the RPG acronm, but hardly plays like them.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:34 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Zer0 Key wrote:
What's a TTRPG? Why are you adding letters to the origin of the acronym?

TTRPG = Table Top Role Playing Game.

This is used to distinguish it from Computer/Video-Game "Role Playing Games" which also use the RPG acronm, but hardly plays like them.

Doesn't change my argument or the stupidity of the term any. The real reason is because the current generation buying it are, for the most part, a bunch of entitled kids who were first introduced to RPGs on a console and in their thinking THAT came first so this other one must be differentiated. It should have been video rpgs that had been differentiate with VRPG from traditional RPGs not the other way around. But because the veterans had to explain to the pleebs after they asked if the pleebs have ever played an RPG and the pleebs response was "I love Final Fantasy" and their response had to be "No the table top kind," never mind the idiot interviewers in trade mags using it because that is how it had to be explained to them because their clueless nonresearching hacks. Besides, VRPGs aren't RPGs, they miss so many of the aspects of traditional RPGs that it really makes them only RPSs or Role-Playing Simulators. They are nothing more than a choose your own adventure book with prettier pictures and more choices and all the open world model did was allow you to read other smaller choose your own adventure books before you finish the first one. Don't get me wrong I love em I still play Skyrim and The Witcher but I recognize that the chaotic human interaction of an actual RPG is superior, more flexible and holds infinitely more possibility than any RPS.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:24 am
  

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As time goes on and we look at things more closely, including the animation, more information is revealed about Robotech if we accept it and the dialogue at face value. For example, the Wolfe retrospective video in Eulogy states:

Quote:
VIDEO NARRATOR: Colonel Jonathan Wolfe, leader of a squadron dubbed The Wolfe Pack, was successful in annihilating many of the enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Robotech Defenders. Then the Wolfe Pack was sent to Earth to do battle with The Robotech Masters. They survived the Invid attack and have kept the hopes of freedom lovers everywhere alive until Admiral Hunter returns.


Notice that the Invid are separated from the "enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Robotech Defenders". This means the REF was out there battling SOMEONE, it just wasn't the Invid. And because "enemies" is plural, that can mean more than one. Maybe The Disciples of Zor mentioned by The Masters in eps. #29 The Robotech Masters are one such enemy?

Quote:
ROBOTECH MASTER 1: There are 2 possibilities. Either the Disciples of Zor have found the abandoned Protoculture Factory and have begun a new offensive against our Zentraedi warriors or the Invid have beaten us to the prize and now control production of Protoculture.


By just not trying to mangle what is said in Robotech there are countless opportunities for adventures in deep space that don't have to involve the Invid (since the UEF/REF encountering them before The Invid Invasion basically breaks what is established in Robotech's dialogue).

And the same goes true with the animation. What are generally written off as animation errors, with SOME creativity could be used to be more creative interpretations. Just recently on Facebook, it was pointed out that the inconsistent animation of MOSPEADA could actually be used to make the Invid a bit more flavorful. There definitely are Iigaa and Gurabs that aren't consistent with each other, being too tall. So what if Invid mecha, instead of necessarily "evolving" all the time, "grow" bigger? That they almost are like the Hideki Kakinuma reimagined versions from Hobby Japan where the mecha are "living". Now, we do know the Invid used mechanical controls thanks to The Sentinels, but if the exterior armor is a bit like chitin and the "wetware" internals are more bio-mechanical, they could potentially "get beefier". This would give us 2 sizes for the Iigaa and Gurab. This could also explain the discrepancy with the ~5m tall Iigaa's we see in The Sentinels. Of course, the animation also shows that there are 2 types of visors on the Invid: Red and Blue, with the latter apparently denoting a Commander. Also, the Protector Infantry come in 3 colors: Blue (grunt, The Fortress), Green (NCO, The Big Apple) and Red (Commander, The Sentinels).

Incidentally, I would note that Robotech Art 3 on p.135, says the Inorganics come in 2 sizes: Drones and Commanders (3m Drone/5m Commander). Of course, reading into the passage this only applies to the Scrim and Crann. The Odeon only comes in 5m and the Hellcat in 2m.

Other things that have recently been looked at include the fact the Ajax is too short at 9m in Fighter mode. That its closer to 13m, which makes sense as the tail section does fold up into the frame during Battloid mode. This would give the cockpit the same surface area as that of the Alpha. Volunteers shows the Bioroid operates/flies perfectly fine in space without the Biover. The same episode has the shuttle being attacked by what look like miniature Bioroid Assault Corvettes, but fighter-sized. So why not a fighter-sized version that just has a single pilot?

I have a thread on here where I show the Bioroid Drum clearly has a foregrip that is shown in use in Metal Fire. That means the "awkward construction" penalty from 2E can easily be mitigated now by simply having Bioroids dual-grip their guns (assuming you want to keep such an asinine rule to begin with).

It really doesn't have to be 1 or the other. The RPG was done with incomplete (mostly) information that can be easily rectified. There is room for filling in the gaps left by incomplete info, like the fact we now have lineart for the Triton's gunpod (and yes, the Triton IS a Battloid, NOT a Powered Armor because its shown in EVERY closing animation sequence as being equal in height to the Spartas, Salamander and Garm Battloids).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:00 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
jaymz wrote:
They should all be guided...

I also came up with rules for firing at multiple targets with one volley like we see in the show

I agree they should all be guided, but it shouldn't take a "house rule" to fix something like this that they should have easily gotten right (and did get right in 1E).


I am at a loss here, a simple ctrl+F in either the corebook nor the Sentinel book doesn't seems to give anything in the sense of multiple target attacks. At beat there is a suggestion for the A.R.M.D. that lets you combine attacks in one roll... but that would be a stretch, wouldn't it? Is your reference from a supplement?

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Besides, VRPGs aren't RPGs, they miss so many of the aspects of traditional RPGs that it really makes them only RPSs or Role-Playing Simulators. They are nothing more than a choose your own adventure book with prettier pictures and more choices and all the open world model did was allow you to read other smaller choose your own adventure books before you finish the first one.


Agreed, I was gonna ask if we might not help into spreading the use of CRPGs for the computer related variant, but VRPGs is probably the way to go.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
So what if Invid mecha, instead of necessarily "evolving" all the time, "grow" bigger? That they almost are like the Hideki Kakinuma reimagined versions from Hobby Japan where the mecha are "living". Now, we do know the Invid used mechanical controls thanks to The Sentinels, but if the exterior armor is a bit like chitin and the "wetware" internals are more bio-mechanical, they could potentially "get beefier". This would give us 2 sizes for the Iigaa and Gurab.


I actually worked that way when building the Starfish Class for our own table, since its size seemed variable from one ship to another in the comic (but each relatively consistent with themselves). Though instead of limiting it to two, I listed the bigger size and created rules to calculates stats by arms in percent under that bar. Including something to let an arm regrow and how it would affect complement, since... well why not give regeneration to a starfish ship if I am to tell it's living and growing. Hence that is entirely non-canon, but our starfish class now have the Lexx's propensity to go nest and lunch on a planet to repair themselves. (I also included rules for the "mouth" and digesting very large spaces while covering it with a polymorphic stomach.)
If nothing else, that gives them a flavourful flaw to exploit.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:11 pm
  

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xunk16 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Besides, VRPGs aren't RPGs, they miss so many of the aspects of traditional RPGs that it really makes them only RPSs or Role-Playing Simulators. They are nothing more than a choose your own adventure book with prettier pictures and more choices and all the open world model did was allow you to read other smaller choose your own adventure books before you finish the first one.


Agreed, I was gonna ask if we might not help into spreading the use of CRPGs for the computer related variant, but VRPGs is probably the way to go.


But you know what we get called for correcting plebs? If you correct them they aren't wrong, we're boomers even if your a early millennial or a gen Xr they still call you a boomer if you prove them wrong.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:17 pm
  

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Sometimes, you have to cross the streams because all you have is the Robotech Source Book, and the Rifts Source Book, no money and no internet.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:25 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
And the same goes true with the animation. What are generally written off as animation errors, with SOME creativity could be used to be more creative interpretations. Just recently on Facebook, it was pointed out that the inconsistent animation of MOSPEADA could actually be used to make the Invid a bit more flavorful. There definitely are Iigaa and Gurabs that aren't consistent with each other, being too tall. So what if Invid mecha, instead of necessarily "evolving" all the time, "grow" bigger? That they almost are like the Hideki Kakinuma reimagined versions from Hobby Japan where the mecha are "living". Now, we do know the Invid used mechanical controls thanks to The Sentinels, but if the exterior armor is a bit like chitin and the "wetware" internals are more bio-mechanical, they could potentially "get beefier". This would give us 2 sizes for the Iigaa and Gurab. This could also explain the discrepancy with the ~5m tall Iigaa's we see in The Sentinels. Of course, the animation also shows that there are 2 types of visors on the Invid: Red and Blue, with the latter apparently denoting a Commander. Also, the Protector Infantry come in 3 colors: Blue (grunt, The Fortress), Green (NCO, The Big Apple) and Red (Commander, The Sentinels).


In my mind, I attributed the Size and Color differences to the Invid Regis (or Regent) and how they used their "Alchemy" to produce the different Invid Mecha. Since they started off fighting the Zentaedi it makes sense that there may be larger versions for fighting an enemy that size. If I remember correctly (it has been a while since I read it), in the novelization of Genesis, it discribes Breetai as running up to an Invid Trooper and using his rifle to blow away it's leg joint and that was how his face and head were hurt so bad. So it would make sense that the Invid that the Zentraedi faced were larger than on Earth. On Earth it would make sense to make them smaller so that they can better interact with the environment around them.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:47 pm
  

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Devjannz wrote:
Since they started off fighting the Zentraedi it makes sense that there may be larger versions for fighting an enemy that size.


Thing is, that's only the novels/comics/RPG. The Tv series makes no such claim as the Zentraedi not only never mention the Invid, no one in the UEF (ASC or REF) know about the Invid BEFORE the end of the 2RW. The dialogue is fairly consistent in that regard. Not only does Major Carpenter not mention some war out in deep space with some heretofore unknown alien species, Admiral Hunter didn't even know who the Invid were when he set down at Point K.

The oversized Iigaa in The Sentinels seems to also match an oversized Iigaa seen in The Invid Invasion (which is almost the size of an Alpha), which also has some weird-looking electrical attack. Suffice to say, it appears that some Invid do get bigger than others. It makes for an interesting discussion on how to rationally explain it without resorting to "Animation Error" (which it clearly is, but isn't fairly helpful).

Relevant dialogue:

Episode #58 Final Nightmare
MUSICA: Its just as I feared, we're too late Bowie. Its already started. You were right! These are the Flowers of Life! And those spores they're sending out? That means the mutation is complete. The Invid will be drawn here from across the cosmos. They're probably on their way even as we're standing here.

BOWIE: The Invid? Who are they?

MUSICA: The enemies of both our people!

BOWIE: Wait, Musica! Be careful, will ya? I mean what do we know about these plants? They might even be carnivorous.

MUSICA: No, Bowie. The Flower of Life survives by feeding off the Protoculture Matrix.

BOWIE: Huh?

MUSICA: It moved!

BOWIE: Musica...

MUSICA: Oh no, Bowie. Something terrible is about to happen!

BOWIE: Don't worry, I'm right here with you.

THE NARRATOR: Even as Bowie tries to comfort Musica, spores continue to rise out of an opening at the top of the ruins. As Bowie watches the eerie process, a startling realization dawns on him.

BOWIE: Hey, if they feed on Protoculture, then this is the Protoculture Factory! Musica, we found what everyone's been looking for!

MUSICA: Protoculture Factory? Yes, we found it, but its too late.

BOWIE: No, its not too late, Musica! I don't care what the Invid are, its not too late!

MUSICA: But how?

BOWIE: I don't know how, but we'll figure something, we've got to.

MUSICA: (Thinking to herself) Oh Bowie, if you only knew what the Invid were like!
........................

NOVA: There they are. But what in the world could they all be doing inside the Ruins of the SDF-1? Well, there's only one way to find out.

DANA: What? It can't be!

BOWIE: Believe it, Lieutenant. These things subsist on Protoculture. They thrive on it.

MUSICA: Its true.

DANA: So these spores must be some kind of signal to the Invid, whatever they are.

BOWIE: That's right.

DANA: And the Protoculture was right here all the time and it looks like we're the only ones in the universe that didn't know it.

BOWIE & MUSICA: Uh huh (in unison).

DANTE: Oh come on, Lieutenant.

DANA: Huh?

DANTE: Give me a break. All this stuff is a bunch of legends and fairy tales. You don't really believe all this bunk about the Invid Flower of Life, do you ma'am?

Episode #59 The Invid Connection
THE MASTERS: Attention Commander Leonard! Attention Commander Leonard. Attention all leaders of the Southern Cross Defense Force. Listen very closely to what we have to say. We are now capable of demolishing you completely with little effort. We advise you to surrender and evacuate your planet immediately. Evacuate the planet within 38 hours, or we will be forced to destory your homeworld.

SUPREME COMMANDER LEONARD: Now you listen. We underwent much suffering and agony to make this planet our home. We're not going to just give it up.

THE MASTERS: Commander Leonard, this is an ultimatum, not a suggestion. The Invid have already detected the presence of Protoculture on this planet. You must now leave this matter to us.

SUPREME COMMANDER LEONARD: Its impossible to evacuate our citizens and troops within 38 hours. Absolutely impossible. More time. We must have at least 7 days.

THE MASTERS: 48 hours, then, and no more.

SUPREME COMMANDER LEONARD: But we can't....

THE MASTERS: 48 hours, Commander.

SEWARD: Well, Supreme Commander?

SUPREME COMMANDER LEONARD: All squadrons assemble at Monument City and prepare for a massive attack.

SEWARD: Yes sir. But Commander...

SUPREME COMMANDER LEONARD: Do it now. On the double! (Thinking to himself) We defeated the Zentraedi and now we've got these so-called Robotech Masters and whatever the Invid are. Well our troops can handle them too.

Episode #60 Catastrophe
DANA: But what happened to me while I was holding that container? Are these spores really that dangerous? And what about the Invid?

Episode #68 Eulogy

SCOTT: He's the greatest ace ever to come out of the Robotech Military Academy.

RAND: Ohhhh..

ROOK: I heard he's supposed to be a real ladies man too.

ANNIE: Really? I'd like to meet him.

SCOTT: Yep, graduated number one in his class and then volunteered for Special Forces duty when Admiral Hunter sent in the first wave against The Robotech Masters.

VIDEO NARRATOR: Colonel Jonathan Wolfe, leader of a squadron dubbed The Wolfe Pack, was successful in annihilating many of the enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Robotech Defenders. Then the Wolfe Pack was sent to Earth to do battle with The Robotech Masters. They survived the Invid attack and have kept the hopes of freedom lovers everywhere alive until Admiral Hunter returns.

SCOTT: I can still remember the day Colonel Wolfe left. After joining the Earth Reclamation Forces, he turned up missing. We thought he was dead. Amazing, he's been here the whole time.
..................................

WOLFE: So, what is it?

SCOTT: Like yours, sir, my orders are to penetrate and raid the Invid Protoculture complex. If possible, I'd like to join forces with you.

WOLFE: Hmmm. You would, huh?

SCOTT: Sir, what do you say?

WOLFE: And what makes you presume that you know what my orders are, Commander Bernard?

SCOTT: We're here for the same reasons, sir. Like you, I'm a graduate of the Robotech Academy and an ex-member of your Wolfe Pack.

WOLFE: This isn't the Wolfe Pack. This is Earth and our enemy, the Invid, are savages.

Episode #70 Enter Marlene

SCOTT: You see, its the place where Admiral Hunter put down to plan an advance attack base.

ROOK: Was he planning advance attacks against the Invid?

SCOTT: He wasn't sure who the enemy was exactly, but ever since they arrived, there's been no one but the Invid to attack.

Now to forestall any argument, yes, I am saying the REF doesn't encounter the Invid until the 3rd Robotech War. That's plainly obvious with the Wolfe dialogue and the complete mystery of the Invid during the 2nd Robotech War. However, the Wolfe video states the REF fought SOMEONE out in deep space (and likely multiple someone's at that). So the few remaining holdouts of the Zentraedi, the Disciples of Zor and whatever other humanoid Robotechnology using species there are would be among those enemies. The sky is pretty much the limit (though, again, likely humanoid and not utterly alien).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:43 pm
  

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in my own house setting, i'm shifting the war with the Regent to a start date of late 2028ish.. just a few months before the masters arrive at earth. the UEEF spends the time between 2022 and 2025ish trying to find the masters empire, and then from 2025ish to ~2030 fighting their way across the (weakened) masters empire, dealing with the bioroid and zentreadi forces the masters left behind to hold the empire while their zent grand fleet and Tirolian capitol fleet search for Zor's ship.
Carpenter in this is carrying information to earth to let them know that the UEEF had just encounted a 2nd alien threat, and was now fighting a two front war within the Tirolian empire's space. (the new threat being the Regent.. who has been eating up the Empire from the other side, including the Sentinels worlds)

this means that humanity is dealing with the invid in two places at the same time, until the Regent is defeated as seen in prelude in 2043. which helps explain why the UEEF isn't going full court press to liberate earth in the 2030's (getting peace with the tirolian remnants and stopping the regent takes priority since that's an existential issue for the surviving organized humanity), and why the Mars division troops in 2042 can talk about earth being "just another world overrun with invid" as if there are other worlds out there so overrun. because at the time, the regent's empire did still exist, albeit having been knocked onto the back foot.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:26 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
in my own house setting, i'm shifting the war with the Regent to a start date of late 2028ish.. just a few months before the masters arrive at earth. the UEEF spends the time between 2022 and 2025ish trying to find the masters empire, and then from 2025ish to ~2030 fighting their way across the (weakened) masters empire, dealing with the bioroid and zentreadi forces the masters left behind to hold the empire while their zent grand fleet and Tirolian capitol fleet search for Zor's ship.
Carpenter in this is carrying information to earth to let them know that the UEEF had just encounted a 2nd alien threat, and was now fighting a two front war within the Tirolian empire's space. (the new threat being the Regent.. who has been eating up the Empire from the other side, including the Sentinels worlds)

this means that humanity is dealing with the invid in two places at the same time, until the Regent is defeated as seen in prelude in 2043. which helps explain why the UEEF isn't going full court press to liberate earth in the 2030's (getting peace with the tirolian remnants and stopping the regent takes priority since that's an existential issue for the surviving organized humanity), and why the Mars division troops in 2042 can talk about earth being "just another world overrun with invid" as if there are other worlds out there so overrun. because at the time, the regent's empire did still exist, albeit having been knocked onto the back foot.

We used a modified version of the McKinely Novels timeline and this sounds very similar to that. Truthfully the 3 or 5 scenarios we ran before arriving at Tyrol were probably peoples favorites as we transitioned our RDF characters to REF and so they slowly went from VTs to Alphas which meant in one game we had half the PCs using Macross era stuff and the other half using Sentinels era which ended up being a lot of fun for everyone.

What I like about your timeline is that it give a group that time to explore before jumping in to war with the Masters and Invid. Do you have them following like a trail of outposts trying to track down Tyrol or what?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:15 am
  

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xunk16 wrote:
I am at a loss here, a simple ctrl+F in either the corebook nor the Sentinel book doesn't seems to give anything in the sense of multiple target attacks. At beat there is a suggestion for the A.R.M.D. that lets you combine attacks in one roll... but that would be a stretch, wouldn't it? Is your reference from a supplement?

I was referring to the missiles should be guided aspect of jaymz post, as far as firing at multiple targets IT is possible under baseline rules in some form: Missile Blast Radius. Such an approach doesn't cover all the instances in the series nicely, but it could explain some of them. To get all of them, you'd have to house rule something either original OR based on existing rules.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Doesn't change my argument or the stupidity of the term any.

You did ask what a TTRGP is did you not?

Weather it it stupid to add the extra letters I don't know. What I do know is that there are various genres, would you consider it stupid to add in terms like "Sci-fi" or "horror" or "Fantasy" to the term?

Rapid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Notice that the Invid are separated from the "enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Robotech Defenders". This means the REF was out there battling SOMEONE, it just wasn't the Invid. And because "enemies" is plural, that can mean more than one. Maybe The Disciples of Zor mentioned by The Masters in eps. #29 The Robotech Masters are one such enemy?

Aside from the DoZ and the Invid there are quite few that could be developed from the series:
-Zentreadi offshoots could come in a variety of factions and sizes (Leonard directly in Ep45, and Gloval indirectly in Ep31 indicate these are out there), for legal reasons they likely have to be distinct and unique from anything SDF:M franchise has done. Leonard theorizes the Bioroid Pilots are a strain of micronized Zentreadi that have been scattered across the universe, which could have some basis given Gloval's history summary that the Zentreadi "evolved" into their current form, which IMHO leaves open that other evolutionary paths could also be taken at the giant size and their original micronian size.
-Zentreadi battle fronts that get mentioned with little detail would have to be against someone(s), a few are mentioned by Exdoore concerning Khyron's history (plus the race that nearly destroyed them due to contact, possibly even the world shown being destroyed in the Interrogation of Hunter/Hayes/Dixon by Dolza and others). What state this race(s) are in...
-Space Pirates (which is so generic, you could have countless faction/races and could be linked to others)
-Pigeons mentioned by Leonard in Sentinels OVA, while generally can be seen as intended as hyperbole it doesn't have to
-Shadow Wing and associated Pantheon (Shadows/Shadow-Wing which has been morphed into Haydonites already, so Leytow (sp?) might also be another race, if the Wing/Laytow pantheon gets expanded it could indicate other races)
-Masters Saga also shows either rapid Terran evolutionary changes OR ET-species (i'm hesitant to call them invasive) with the bats (seen in the Mounds) along with a "dog" (Dana's sleeping buddy when running from GMP in Ep38) and "rabbit" (seen when Dana is out with Zor in a field). Sentinels does reuse the Dog as part of the FoL/Invid ecosystem, and IINM McKinney merged the dog and rabbit to create Polly (w/roll as seen in Sentinels). While these aren't Sapien level intelligent, there might be some in their original ecosystem(s)
-Invid themselves might indicate 1-4 other races exist or existed at one time due to the way they "copy" existing creatures to "evolve" (seen on Earth with the Genisis Pit Dinosaurs that where not adopted, but also with the Terran Human form they adopt with Corg/Sera and others.). So, the (1E RPGs) first 4 stages could indicate 1-4 different life forms (depending on how they are seen) they've adopted for widespread use, plus the Regis's humanoid form could point toward a possible giant humanoid separate from Tirolian/Earth (I say possible, because the attributes that point this way can also have explanations that work)
-IIRC aren't there some unique aliens in the Sentinel lineart that appeared in the Sentinels DVD extras on the Elements of RT series that were released with the Legacy DVDs? One was identified as the "Children of Zor", but there might have been another set using a lineup/height-comparison.

A bit more "open" speculation on my part though would be the race(s) the Zentreadi where sized to originally "police", 40ft giants that are supposed to avoid contact with micronian (ie human) scale worlds aren't the best candidates to be used to police them. Which would indicate there are some giant alien races out there, how common they would be isn't clear but given various battlefronts that get mentioned connected with the Zentreadi.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:30 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:

What I like about your timeline is that it give a group that time to explore before jumping in to war with the Masters and Invid. Do you have them following like a trail of outposts trying to track down Tyrol or what?

More backtracking along the general route breetai took while searching before finding earth, and records from the zent fleet fragments they find along the way. Eventually gets them close enough to run into the border fleets and gain a more general idea of where stuff is.

None of my campaign ideas currently would take place in that time frame so I've not really narrowed it down much beyond that. Just working their way across the galaxy (i fo with the idea that the masters empire is on roughly the opposite side of the galaxy from earth.. helping to explain why the tirolians hadn't found us yet also why zor sent the ship in Earth's direction. The stellar area around earth would be pretty much unmapped fromthe perspective of Tirol.) And planting UEEF outposts and earth colonies along the way.

I use the colonies as the source of the "reinforcments from deep space" seen in the southern cross episodes, given carpenter said the expeditionary force can't help. I tend to assume the colonies closest to earth would be the oldest and most developed and would thus have their own militias and would have closer ties to earth, so would be more able to send help.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:03 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:

What I like about your timeline is that it give a group that time to explore before jumping in to war with the Masters and Invid. Do you have them following like a trail of outposts trying to track down Tyrol or what?

More backtracking along the general route breetai took while searching before finding earth, and records from the zent fleet fragments they find along the way. Eventually gets them close enough to run into the border fleets and gain a more general idea of where stuff is.

None of my campaign ideas currently would take place in that time frame so I've not really narrowed it down much beyond that. Just working their way across the galaxy (i fo with the idea that the masters empire is on roughly the opposite side of the galaxy from earth.. helping to explain why the tirolians hadn't found us yet also why zor sent the ship in Earth's direction. The stellar area around earth would be pretty much unmapped fromthe perspective of Tirol.) And planting UEEF outposts and earth colonies along the way.

I use the colonies as the source of the "reinforcments from deep space" seen in the southern cross episodes, given carpenter said the expeditionary force can't help. I tend to assume the colonies closest to earth would be the oldest and most developed and would thus have their own militias and would have closer ties to earth, so would be more able to send help.

OK this has me even more curious about those human colonies. How big can they be and how much time would they even have to develop? I mean Earth was pretty depopulated when they left so how many colonists would they have. I mean you can assume some high population growth but still small colonies.

I assume you used old Zentraedi ships as the colony ships or did you just hand wave that away.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:17 pm
  

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Earth's population in 2010 was about six and a half billion people. If 1% survived (and that would be a pessimistic estimate given how many inhabitabed areas seem to have survived)* you'd still have more that 60 million survivors. And at 5 million ships each with crews of thousands, the zentreadi grand fleet would have similar total population.

So post war earth would have tens of millions of zentreadi and tens if not hundreds of millions of humans surviving.

More than enough to support a large number of colony groups numbering in the tens of thousands each loaded aboard the two kilometer+ long angel class colony ships of current HG canon. (The class that eventually was used to house the nuetron-s warheads)
Though the first waves of "near earth" colonies i have being planted using zent ships. Most of which get dismantled on arrival to build the colony infrastructure and buildings. This also helps explain why the UEEF doesn't have a fleet of zent warships along, most of Breetai's survining fleet was guarding colonies or was taken apart to vuild them, while the less spaceworthy ones got recycled by the factory sat to help build that massive fleet the ASC ends up with.the angel class is developed based on those early efforts as a dedicated colony transport.


*New york city seems to have survived completely intact for example, which is about 8-9 million people on its own.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:22 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Earth's population in 2010 was about six and a half billion people. If 1% survived (and that would be a pessimistic estimate given how many inhabitabed areas seem to have survived)* you'd still have more that 60 million survivors. And at 5 million ships each with crews of thousands, the zentreadi grand fleet would have similar total population.

So post war earth would have tens of millions of zentreadi and tens if not hundreds of millions of humans surviving.

More than enough to support a large number of colony groups numbering in the tens of thousands each loaded aboard the two kilometer+ long angel class colony ships of current HG canon. (The class that eventually was used to house the nuetron-s warheads)
Though the first waves of "near earth" colonies i have being planted using zent ships. Most of which get dismantled on arrival to build the colony infrastructure and buildings. This also helps explain why the UEEF doesn't have a fleet of zent warships along, most of Breetai's survining fleet was guarding colonies or was taken apart to vuild them, while the less spaceworthy ones got recycled by the factory sat to help build that massive fleet the ASC ends up with.the angel class is developed based on those early efforts as a dedicated colony transport.


*New york city seems to have survived completely intact for example, which is about 8-9 million people on its own.

I was approaching this from a Geographers POV thinking in terms of push/pull factors to get people to move to an off world colony. Even reducing the population by a 1/3, like we saw after the Black Death, the survivors saw massive new economic and social opportunities so it seems reasonable that even with the destruction of the RoD there just wouldn't be as much to push people off world.

But I forgot that in Robotech we are dealing with fleets for the UEEF dozens or hundreds of ships with so reinforcements of just tens of thousands would be enough.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:39 pm
  

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in the black death the infrastructure (the fields, buildings, livestock, etc) all largely survived, it was just the manpower that was hard to find, and thus became more valuable. (also why the survivors became more prosperous.. they implimented changes to offset the manpower issue, plus now the stuff they needed like land, lifestock, etc became a lot cheaper)

what we see in the last episodes of the macross saga is the opposite. aside from a few cities like new macross, monument, and a few others (various ones that khyron is shown attacking), we're shown populations of people squatting in the ruins of towns, barely getting by. these certainly aren't people from the SDF-1, because why go squat in bits of ruined buildings if you were already living in a pre-fab city? these almost had to be survivors from bombshelters and areas less hard hit. a lot of people in that position would jump at the chance to relocate somewhere that isn't a blasted wasteland and get 3 squares a day and their other needs met. even if it means going to another world. and there would likely be a fair number of ethnic and cultural groups that would be more than willing to be involved in such efforts if it meant getting a home away from another ethnic or cultural group that they have historical animosities with.

that said, colony efforts would cause some friction with people who would rather those resources be used to help rebuild earth itself. which would help explain some of the attitudes the ASC express in the show.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:40 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Devjannz wrote:
Since they started off fighting the Zentraedi it makes sense that there may be larger versions for fighting an enemy that size.


Thing is, that's only the novels/comics/RPG. The Tv series makes no such claim as the Zentraedi not only never mention the Invid, no one in the UEF (ASC or REF) know about the Invid BEFORE the end of the 2RW. The dialogue is fairly consistent in that regard. Not only does Major Carpenter not mention some war out in deep space with some heretofore unknown alien species, Admiral Hunter didn't even know who the Invid were when he set down at Point K.

The oversized Iigaa in The Sentinels seems to also match an oversized Iigaa seen in The Invid Invasion (which is almost the size of an Alpha), which also has some weird-looking electrical attack. Suffice to say, it appears that some Invid do get bigger than others. It makes for an interesting discussion on how to rationally explain it without resorting to "Animation Error" (which it clearly is, but isn't fairly helpful).


I have never limited my setting to just things from the Show/Novels/Comics/RPG's because of the errors/differences in how things get interpreted by writers/animators. I take the things I like or sound good to me and mesh them together to fit the narrative I am trying to put forth to my players. As long the setting I put together makes sense to me and them, that is all I worry about. :-D :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:40 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
in the black death the infrastructure (the fields, buildings, livestock, etc) all largely survived, it was just the manpower that was hard to find, and thus became more valuable. (also why the survivors became more prosperous.. they implimented changes to offset the manpower issue, plus now the stuff they needed like land, lifestock, etc became a lot cheaper)

what we see in the last episodes of the macross saga is the opposite. aside from a few cities like new macross, monument, and a few others (various ones that khyron is shown attacking), we're shown populations of people squatting in the ruins of towns, barely getting by. these certainly aren't people from the SDF-1, because why go squat in bits of ruined buildings if you were already living in a pre-fab city? these almost had to be survivors from bombshelters and areas less hard hit. a lot of people in that position would jump at the chance to relocate somewhere that isn't a blasted wasteland and get 3 squares a day and their other needs met. even if it means going to another world. and there would likely be a fair number of ethnic and cultural groups that would be more than willing to be involved in such efforts if it meant getting a home away from another ethnic or cultural group that they have historical animosities with.

that said, colony efforts would cause some friction with people who would rather those resources be used to help rebuild earth itself. which would help explain some of the attitudes the ASC express in the show.

I wasn't clear enough but this was what I was thinking. In the Expanse when the gates open to a thousand new worlds the movement of people from Mars basically destroyed the place while people leaving Earth for the new colonies just gave them new job opportunities and bigger apartments.

The Earth after the RoD seems to really need people and resources and if you can make a colony in a distant star system you can probably rebuild a few cities.

I never did much with this conflict in my games but it would be something to add in for a long campaign.

Devjannz wrote:
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Devjannz wrote:
Since they started off fighting the Zentraedi it makes sense that there may be larger versions for fighting an enemy that size.


Thing is, that's only the novels/comics/RPG. The Tv series makes no such claim as the Zentraedi not only never mention the Invid, no one in the UEF (ASC or REF) know about the Invid BEFORE the end of the 2RW. The dialogue is fairly consistent in that regard. Not only does Major Carpenter not mention some war out in deep space with some heretofore unknown alien species, Admiral Hunter didn't even know who the Invid were when he set down at Point K.

The oversized Iigaa in The Sentinels seems to also match an oversized Iigaa seen in The Invid Invasion (which is almost the size of an Alpha), which also has some weird-looking electrical attack. Suffice to say, it appears that some Invid do get bigger than others. It makes for an interesting discussion on how to rationally explain it without resorting to "Animation Error" (which it clearly is, but isn't fairly helpful).


I have never limited my setting to just things from the Show/Novels/Comics/RPG's because of the errors/differences in how things get interpreted by writers/animators. I take the things I like or sound good to me and mesh them together to fit the narrative I am trying to put forth to my players. As long the setting I put together makes sense to me and them, that is all I worry about. :-D :ok:

I agree with you on this. I took the timeline in 1e RPG books and then spiced it up with stuff from the novels to make it fit what we wanted to play. That said, I loved forcing my players to act like they didn't know what the Invid were, how they were targeting them, or the weak spot until they met some people that knew.

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