Rifts in Orbit

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Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Sambot »

Okay, this has probably been asked before but I'll ask anyway.

As the megaverse is a big place, lets presume that the CS and NGR attempts to reach space were successful. Which nations/groups/powers would establish space programs? How many would establish space stations of their own? Which of the Colonies would ally with, or even join which surface groups?

Going by Coalition Wars 7: Aftermath, I think the CS, Archie Three (Disguised as Triton Industries, the NGR, some Japanese Republics, and Scandinavia? are all working on or have worked on space programs. (I'd love to hear more about the Scandinavia.) So that's a place to start. I think some of the South American nations would try. The Arkons definitely. I think the Sovietski would. I can see Northern Gun going into space and Free Quebec too. The Splugorth would go. The Cities in Australia I think would want to but I'm not sure if they would send more than a satellite. I think the New Navy would want to also but I'm not sure if they could. I'm not sure about anyone else. Lazlo maybe? The Black Market? Techno-wizard rocketships.

I'm also not sure about their presence in space beyond embassies. I don't think they'd have big colonies but I think by 110 P.A. Part of me wants to say and space stations would range in size from the old Soyuz Stations to the International Space Station in size. The other part of me points out the size of some of the aircraft and says if they can get off the ground, a bigger space station with squadrons of space fighters, robots and power armor shouldn't be impossible.

What do you think?
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

As the Arkons in SA2 can attest there is a hostile power block in space. IF we assume the Orbitsls are willing to allow quaranten to be broken/ended, which is a pretty big IF I think...

Human powers on Rifts Earth are going to be very limited in what they can actually do given they likely have to relearn everything all over again. Anything they can build is likely going to be on the smaller side of things, at least for a few decades (an ISS/Mir might be to complicated for a near term goal), and while they might have some more advanced technology than we have (propulsion, materials) it won't be enough to get out of that learning phase. Now factor in launch costs and competing demands for resources, and space exploration is likely going to be limited without some major driver pushing them to devote resources to get into space and establish infrastructure once they get there to be useful to them. Establishing Embassies at any of the Orbitals locations might be practically out for them (Orbitals themselves might not allow it, factor in actual location and it will be more difficult for them to get to than LEO, though the location of the Small Independents isn't know and left to the GM).

Which Human powers will be first... I do not think the CS would be a leader in this area, it likely would be the NGR or (maybe Scandinavia to given lack of details). Most of the others likely would play catchup with varying degrees of success (though some are isolated like Japan so they could be 1st/independent), but I do not see the Black Market getting involved.

Non-Human powers like the Naut'yll (WB7) I don't think are space farers IIRC, unlike the Splugorth (Fot3G, mostly due to Kittani) and Naruni (PW) and Arkons (WB9). The Amaki (WB9) are not well defined, so I do not know which they would fall into. Other non-human powers are similar to the Amaki, so it is hard to say (AI driven blocks probably not). It should be noted that some races appear written to be more focused on use of DIMENSIONAL Travel to new worlds than use of SPACE Travel, this would include the Splugroth themselves (Fot3G, it's only the intervention of the Kittani minions they have physical presence).
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The most extensive text about orbital life in orbit around rifts earth is in the Crossover book Mutants in Orbit.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The most extensive text about orbital life in orbit around rifts earth is in the Crossover book Mutants in Orbit.

Much of the basic setting info from which is reprinted in Seige on Tolkeen Aftermath.such as the various prerifts stations. And the blockade of earth via killsats and the CODF.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Sambot »

Presuming the attempts were successful, the major Earth powers could have a presence in space for 30 years or so. This presumes that either the Colonies aren't as hostile as they are in canon or someone really screwed up. Either way the CS, NGR and others get into space. I don't think any stations would be that small. To start, yes but I think they'd get bigger, considering how massive their flying fortresses are building a space station isn't beyond their capabilities. I do think they'd be at the bottom of the learning curve when it comes to skills though. After 30 years, the ground nations might have some specialists but I think they'd be very few in number. Most personnel just wouldn't be in space long enough. Maybe a years or so tops, unless the stations have gravity. I'm just not sure how big they'd be, or what kind of combat troops they'd have. A lot less for sure. Even some independents could be bigger.

My guess is that until the Arkons arrive relations between those on Earth and those in space would be limited and strained. Similar to relations between some of the stations and the moon. I think that would change after they help fight off the Arkon invasion. It'd be natural for them to join in to fight against the aliens. After all if they lose in space, they'll have to be fought on the ground. Better to keep them in space.

Reasons to go would be explorations, reestablish contact with the colonies, and gain a tactical advantage of their enemies on Earth. Having satellite views and communications would be a big game changer to messages delivered by courier. And once they have it they wouldn't want to lose it.

As for aliens getting into space, other than the Naruni, Splugorth, Kittani, and Arkons I'm not sure and have the capabilities. the Splugorth have political reasons not to go but may send raiders. The Naruni might but I think they'd be less successful than they are on Earth.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

a couple points..
only the Scandinavians have an active space program in the canon. the CS and NGR both gave up on their efforts long prior.
the CS gave up in PA.33 (Aftermath pg202.. "76 years prior" to PA.109), while the NGR tried in PA.71 (same page, "38 years ago" from PA.109)
ARCHIE-3 does not have a space program, he is just piggybacking off one of the CAN republic sattelites in the blockade of earth (a satellite that would be overseen by ARCHIE-7 on the moon)
no other nation is said to have a space program. presumably the sovietski decided not to waste the resources, and the Republic of Japan (as well as the various south american nations) lack the resources to try.


the Arkhon's arrived in PA.74 (per SA2 pg67) so they've been around already for some time. it is likely that the portion stuck on earth have tried to reach orbit using some of their spacecraft but they likely were shot down (they are quite literally the kind of thing the blockade of earth exists to stop)
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ITWastrel »

A LOT of what-ifs must come together for the ground-nations to return to space.

A PILE of automated hunter-killer drones would need to be disabled. The Grounders don't know about those, and after the first couple rockets get nuked, they'll probably rethink their space program.

ALL the space nations, even the Outcasts would need to agree (HA!) to discontinue the quarantine. Think the spacers and the Moonies are going to agree to anything?

Earth is FULL of MONSTERS. You want to let a rocket full of aliens and monsters into your precious station? Let a demon breathe your ice? That quarantine is 100% for Spacer safety. They're not being cruel to humanity, they are just trying to keep the apocalypse down there where nobody they care about can get eaten. Politically, "I vote to let monsters into my very fragile house" will have... difficulty... finding traction.


Now, if we set all that aside, and "for reasons" the spacers were suddenly like "Hey, I've never met an Elf, let's get friendly!", we can assume that the powers with the greatest chance at space travel will be those who never lost the ancient technology (Triax, Archie, Japan).

Triax has full specs for the ships and stations Triax sent into orbit, and manufacturing to make it happen. They never lost the tech, and know exactly how, and, more importantly, why the tech works.

Archie could probably replicate the American space program pretty easily, and his robotics factories would easily build specialized manufacturing bots, who could then build spacecraft. Archie could go from zero to space any time he wants. Archie would, however, need someone to give him the idea, and even then he'd probably be too frightened to pull the trigger until pressed. Of course, then he would be too insecure to feel his space army is enough, and weaponize EVERYTHING. He'd get super paranoid, decide the spacers needed controlled, and react accordingly. He would probably invade the orbitals, accidentally kill everyone, and then feel REALLY bad about it. Like, seriously bad. For a week. Then he's off to his next madcap adventure!

The CS could rediscover the files, rebuild the NEMA space program, maybe. They would need decades of research and development, but could get to space in time. The hardest part would be convincing the designers that the rockets fly better with nose cones, not skulls, on their tips.

The next most likely candidates are literally every magic user on earth. A TW flying bathysphere in space? Seems legit, even likely. I assume there's probably a large group of dead Techno-Wizards in near space, their flying tilt-a-whirl cars blasted to atoms by the spacers or drones.

As for the politics, assume these folks to be the scorpions they are. Their natures will assert themselves immediately. The CS will thank Outcast station for gathering up all the freaks, then let a couple nukes off the chain. There's no reason the CS would let them live, even for a minute. Triax would stand off, and not immediately jump to genocide, but I doubt the Outcast would make any German friends.

One scenario that occurred to me, The City of Brass could make an attractive offer to the Outcasts. A station of monsters, shunned my the normies, might be amenable to an offer of help from the wizards. Especially if the CS is coming.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

glitterboy2098 wrote:no other nation is said to have a space program. presumably the sovietski decided not to waste the resources, and the Republic of Japan (as well as the various south american nations) lack the resources to try.

I do not think its a lack of resources, elements of technology that could make for an advanced space program are available to a lot of powers just waiting to be combined. The main issue is that the few examples we have show that the space programs of record to date have been failures, possibly with indications of a hostile power(s), making the lack of a space program a political/motivational in origin and not technical.

The lack of a declared space program is one of those gray areas given it is not directly addressed one way or the other. Location of a given Rifts Nation might also play a hand in its technological ability to launch (low latitude launch sites vs high latitude launch sites, perhaps they also do not want to overfly neighbor/enemy and give them a look at their technology incase of a launch failure which would put additional demands on the launch vehicle) before we even get into the Orbitals response.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the Arkhon's arrived in PA.74 (per SA2 pg67) so they've been around already for some time. it is likely that the portion stuck on earth have tried to reach orbit using some of their spacecraft but they likely were shot down (they are quite literally the kind of thing the blockade of earth exists to stop)

The Arkhon's probably face pressures not from just the Orbitals but also the Nazca to keep them in their place (and the Nazca system might also respond to others in the neighborhood).

ITWastrel wrote:ALL the space nations, even the Outcasts would need to agree (HA!) to discontinue the quarantine. Think the spacers and the Moonies are going to agree to anyth

Not ALL of the Orbitals have to agree, but enough would have to agree to end it that it could not be continued by the remaining Orbitals in disagreement with them. IIRC the CAN Replublic might have to be onboard with this as they might have the necessary resources to sustain the operation even without the others, assuming the others aren't willing to get into a shooting war with CAN over the issue.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

It's not so much lack of overall resources, so much as resources to spare for it. The CS and NGR both are some of the few nations in rifts earth presented as having industrial production greater than their military and civilian needs. Sure, columbia for example likely has the technology knowledge to build rockets that could take someone to orbit.. but that effort would divert resources away from the productions of weapons and vehicles needed to fight piracy and the vampires, or away from important civilian production. Both of which would very likely cause the entire nation to suffer economic upheavals or leave them open to being overrun by enemies.

But the CS and NGR easily have industrial power to spare for a space program.and they are the human "industrial superpowers" of rifts earth, so far as such a classification can be applied to a post-post-apoc setting.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

I think the resource diversion could be justified depending on the goals of said space program. A manned space program, even for the CS/NGR, would be much harder to justify in comparison to one geared toward unmanned satellites geared towards missions to support them in their conflict(s).
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I've said it before... even if you assume all the nonsense that MiO put up there actually works, the Splugorth can take over everything in lunar orbit and the La Grange points with relatively little effort.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by thorr-kan »

glitterboy2098 wrote:a couple points..
only the Scandinavians have an active space program in the canon. the CS and NGR both gave up on their efforts long prior.
the CS gave up in PA.33 (Aftermath pg202.. "76 years prior" to PA.109), while the NGR tried in PA.71 (same page, "38 years ago" from PA.109)

Where's the quote on the Scandinavians? I've missed that somewhere.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Mark Hall wrote:I've said it before... even if you assume all the nonsense that MiO put up there actually works, the Splugorth can take over everything in lunar orbit and the La Grange points with relatively little effort.

I wouldn't say more like moderate effort, super beings change the equation and the VRRDS bots and GBs are rather tough but Splugorth, Naruni, and really any spacefaring trans-dimensional power could do it.

Like most people who use Rifts space I made a ton of changes to make it tougher so it could stand up to powers like the Splugorth in the same way the CS or NGR does. You also have to remember that Slyncryth doesn't want to control too much of Rifts Earth as it would make him too much of a target. The other thing to take into consideration are there any resources that are worth the effort.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

thorr-kan wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:a couple points..
only the Scandinavians have an active space program in the canon. the CS and NGR both gave up on their efforts long prior.
the CS gave up in PA.33 (Aftermath pg202.. "76 years prior" to PA.109), while the NGR tried in PA.71 (same page, "38 years ago" from PA.109)

Where's the quote on the Scandinavians? I've missed that somewhere.

aftermath pg202, right after the NGR mention. the scandinavians are said to be making progress, launching Long Range Missiles into space in order to watch them get destroyed in order to systematically test whats keeping people out of orbit.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Sambot »

glitterboy2098 wrote:a couple points..
only the Scandinavians have an active space program in the canon. the CS and NGR both gave up on their efforts long prior.
the CS gave up in PA.33 (Aftermath pg202.. "76 years prior" to PA.109), while the NGR tried in PA.71 (same page, "38 years ago" from PA.109)
ARCHIE-3 does not have a space program, he is just piggybacking off one of the CAN republic sattelites in the blockade of earth (a satellite that would be overseen by ARCHIE-7 on the moon)
no other nation is said to have a space program. presumably the sovietski decided not to waste the resources, and the Republic of Japan (as well as the various south american nations) lack the resources to try.


You missed Japan. Several high tech centers in Japan are mentioned with Scandinavia as being interested in sending a vessel into space.
Satellite communications are a space program. They're just not a manned space program.
I mentioned others like the Sovietski and some powers in South America because they have advanced technology. Possibly including the means to get to space. And if a few get into space others will try. I don't think Northern Gun or Free Quebec would be too far behind the CS.
As for the rest. I know the programs are cancelled and that no attempts have been successful, and that the colonies actively prevent such attempts. That's canon. I'm asking a What if?

I don't think it's a matter of resources either. I know there was fighting going on but outside of the NGR, who still made attempts, I can't think of any major wars happening during that time period. Probably some in South America between the Arkon and Nazca or something but for the most part the SA World Books only talk about possible wars brewing. Still, even after the siege on Tolkeen was over the CS still had resources. It was the Minion War that has resources stretched for them. Back in the 30s though resources wouldn't be an issue.


ITWastrel wrote:As for the politics, assume these folks to be the scorpions they are. Their natures will assert themselves immediately. The CS will thank Outcast station for gathering up all the freaks, then let a couple nukes off the chain. There's no reason the CS would let them live, even for a minute. Triax would stand off, and not immediately jump to genocide, but I doubt the Outcast would make any German friends.


I don't think the first thing the CS would do is launch nukes. They'd have to get established first and have a big enough space force to defeat Outcast Station and any possible allies. And doing that would set all the other colonists on edge. If they start throwing nukes right away, at best it'd set relations back decades at worst, the colonists would shoot the CS down and start making killer satellites again. Instead, I think they'd just ignore Outcast station. They may be targeted for later conquest but that'd be low in the priority list.


ShadowLogan wrote:I think the resource diversion could be justified depending on the goals of said space program. A manned space program, even for the CS/NGR, would be much harder to justify in comparison to one geared toward unmanned satellites geared towards missions to support them in their conflict(s).


A manned satellite is probably better than an unmanned one. Being able to drop troops down anywhere would also be an advantage. Plus it opens up space to manufacture things, obtain more resources, and open trade with the colonies. I'm pretty sure Free Quebec and the NGR would love to order some Glitterboys.


Mark Hall wrote:I've said it before... even if you assume all the nonsense that MiO put up there actually works, the Splugorth can take over everything in lunar orbit and the La Grange points with relatively little effort.


True but I don't think they would for the same reason they don't take over Earth. It'd paint a target on them and cause problems for them megaverse wide. They'd probably settle for raiding.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

While contact with the orbital community might not first be made with magic, visitation absolutely would be. Explorers from Lazlo could easily trade magic items for instruction in the more utilitarian aspects of space magic upon travelling to Center, accessible either through direct rift or traveling from the permanent Wormwood gate in Old Detroit to Worldgate. A handful of level 8 and under spells are more than sufficient for making a TW vehicle that can travel to space while not being detected by any killsats. This of course assumes a caster doesn't just pony up the PPE for a Teleport:Superior and skip all that.

If the Naruni hadn't largely limited their sales on Rifts Earth it would have proven by far the easiest technological approach to orbital access, if for no other reason than their grav tech not requiring reaching escape velocity.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Sambot wrote:A manned satellite is probably better than an unmanned one. Being able to drop troops down anywhere would also be an advantage. Plus it opens up space to manufacture things, obtain more resources, and open trade with the colonies. I'm pretty sure Free Quebec and the NGR would love to order some Glitterboys.

While a manned satellite is potentially better than an unmanned one, a manned satellite comes with higher overhead and some drawbacks (there are actually roles that unmanned satellites are better at due to the absence of humans).

If the CS (or anyone else) wants to put troops down anywhere in the world, there are more cost effective and easier methods than putting the troops into space to be "dropped from orbit".

Space Manufacturing can be achieved w/o a manned presence, it would also come with costs that would have to be factored into the end product. Resources in space would potentially bring them into conflict with the Orbitals who already compete for resources (IIRC CAN Republic limits what resources the Stations can get from the Moon).

Trade with the Orbitals is a possibility, but what do they have that the Orbitals would be interested in trading for that would be cost effective? While I'm sure the Orbitals have stuff the surface world would be interested in technologically, the reverse may not be.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:A manned satellite is probably better than an unmanned one. Being able to drop troops down anywhere would also be an advantage. Plus it opens up space to manufacture things, obtain more resources, and open trade with the colonies. I'm pretty sure Free Quebec and the NGR would love to order some Glitterboys.

While a manned satellite is potentially better than an unmanned one, a manned satellite comes with higher overhead and some drawbacks (there are actually roles that unmanned satellites are better at due to the absence of humans).

If the CS (or anyone else) wants to put troops down anywhere in the world, there are more cost effective and easier methods than putting the troops into space to be "dropped from orbit".

Space Manufacturing can be achieved w/o a manned presence, it would also come with costs that would have to be factored into the end product. Resources in space would potentially bring them into conflict with the Orbitals who already compete for resources (IIRC CAN Republic limits what resources the Stations can get from the Moon).

Trade with the Orbitals is a possibility, but what do they have that the Orbitals would be interested in trading for that would be cost effective? While I'm sure the Orbitals have stuff the surface world would be interested in technologically, the reverse may not be.


and of course there is the compromise the unmanned station, with robots, and the capability to orbitally drop robots, like skelibots
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Sambot »

Curbludgeon wrote:While contact with the orbital community might not first be made with magic, visitation absolutely would be. Explorers from Lazlo could easily trade magic items for instruction in the more utilitarian aspects of space magic upon travelling to Center, accessible either through direct rift or traveling from the permanent Wormwood gate in Old Detroit to Worldgate. A handful of level 8 and under spells are more than sufficient for making a TW vehicle that can travel to space while not being detected by any killsats. This of course assumes a caster doesn't just pony up the PPE for a Teleport:Superior and skip all that.

If the Naruni hadn't largely limited their sales on Rifts Earth it would have proven by far the easiest technological approach to orbital access, if for no other reason than their grav tech not requiring reaching escape velocity.



I agree that magic users would have the easiest time getting to the colonies. How receptive the colonies would be though...I don't remember them being that accepting of magic. I don't think they'd be that appreciative of someone just popping into their stations either.



quote="ShadowLogan"]
While a manned satellite is potentially better than an unmanned one, a manned satellite comes with higher overhead and some drawbacks (there are actually roles that unmanned satellites are better at due to the absence of humans).

If the CS (or anyone else) wants to put troops down anywhere in the world, there are more cost effective and easier methods than putting the troops into space to be "dropped from orbit".

Space Manufacturing can be achieved w/o a manned presence, it would also come with costs that would have to be factored into the end product. Resources in space would potentially bring them into conflict with the Orbitals who already compete for resources (IIRC CAN Republic limits what resources the Stations can get from the Moon).

Trade with the Orbitals is a possibility, but what do they have that the Orbitals would be interested in trading for that would be cost effective? While I'm sure the Orbitals have stuff the surface world would be interested in technologically, the reverse may not be.[/quote]


Sure. Sometimes unmanned is better. Sometimes not. And sure it'd take more resources keeping someone in space but if something goes wrong, they're there to fix it. They could also sound the alarm instead of waiting for someone to go through all the data that got transmitted.

Part of the reason for the conflict over the moon is that the moon is so much closer but the other colonies are forced to travel further away. It's like telling someone they can't use the canal and making them travel all the way around.

As for trade, Filters. chemicals for hydroponics, food, water. All kinds of things.




guardiandashi wrote:and of course there is the compromise the unmanned station, with robots, and the capability to orbitally drop robots, like skelibots


Great idea! :)
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

As far as the orbitals' acceptance of magic, Mutants in Orbit states that it's not known, and in the one place where it's not generally known (Outcast Station) it's instead assumed to be super powers. There's an argument that most natural psychic development wouldn't focus towards sensing the supernatural simply due to lack of exposure/relevance, so with the right effects a magical team could evade detection far more easily than they might against, say, the CS.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Sambot wrote:Sure. Sometimes unmanned is better. Sometimes not. And sure it'd take more resources keeping someone in space but if something goes wrong, they're there to fix it. They could also sound the alarm instead of waiting for someone to go through all the data that got transmitted.

It depends on what needs fixing, but Northern Gun and Triax show that you can produce a labor robot (and the CS essentially could to) which would mean you still don't need a manned presence.

Sambot wrote:Part of the reason for the conflict over the moon is that the moon is so much closer but the other colonies are forced to travel further away. It's like telling someone they can't use the canal and making them travel all the way around.

And if the CAN Republic is placing restrictions on the other orbitals and can enforce them, it seems unlikely they wouldn't be the same with anyone coming up from the Earth or them getting special treatment. Earth powers for the most part wouldn't be able to do much militarily to resolve the issue either (Splugorth and Arkhons being an obvious exception) since they wouldn't really have the "Space Force" of sufficient size to have a viable chance.

From a propulsion standpoint (ignoring trip time) the Moon isn't really any farther than Mars or asteroids, though the physical distance and trip time are bigger.

Sambot wrote:As for trade, Filters. chemicals for hydroponics, food, water. All kinds of things.

The thing with Trade is how much will it cost to launch the goods from the surface of the Earth to their destination? WB26 (Dinosaur Swamp) indicates that launch costs where still high even before the Great Cataclysm, and the surface worlders for the most part won't be able to do any better than that (and most likely be more expensive).

Really the only thing Earth has to offer is Water, but short of using magic teleportation methods it's going to be more cost effective to import the water from elsewhere (and when MiO was written water-ice wasn't known to be on the Moon like is now). Earth's launch capacity wouldn't be able to put much of a dent in the demand the Orbitals would have, it would take them time to develop that capacity to move it cheaply.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by AzathothXy »

Mark Hall wrote:I've said it before... even if you assume all the nonsense that MiO put up there actually works, the Splugorth can take over everything in lunar orbit and the La Grange points with relatively little effort.


Launch the SDF-1 loaded up with Kittani and Kydians.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Warshield73 »

MiO was an OK addition to Rifts when it first came out but by the time 3 or 4 more world books came out and then the introduction of the Three Galaxies it became hopelessly out of date. I think most people that use it do alter the setting a lot but for me the biggest consideration is population.

How many people, humans and mutant animals, were actually in space when the apocalypse occurred? Given the short amount of time Golden Age it could not have been more than a few thousand but how many?

Then how many died, committed suicide, returned to Earth, or were evacuated from Earth before containment become the official policy? If Rifts space is just a few thousand people in close orbit to Earth and a few hundred in the belt then a single Splugorth ship from the Three Galaxies could wipe them all out. If they have grown to hundreds of thousands or even millions with colonies in the outer planets then it is a different situation.

As for people on Earth reaching space I just assume that only a few try, mainly for satellites but also in the hopes of finding intact technology like a bunker on Earth. It takes a lot of effort to getting something into space and so it would only take a few failures for those resources to be reallocated towards something more effective. There is the huge problem of Ground based telescopes being able to see the stations and maybe even ships so you have to assume some people do know the stations exist even if they don't communicate.

MiO is not really usable on it's own but you can take a few approaches.

1-For a recent campaign I started I decided that I did not want to mess with a space community so I had the entire orbital population wiped out by an orbital defense system that has continued to increase it's numbers and improve its technology over the centuries. If you look from the Earth through telescopes all you see is debris and you hear nothing over radio. You fly up and you are obliterated by dozens even hundreds of weapons. This also prevents aliens from coming in and is what shredded the Arkohn on there return. Simple and required almost no work.

2-Create a large community that could resist some attempts from outside and maybe add some magical hazards around the Earth to limit communication and access. I did this for my first Rifts campaign and it was a lot of work because, well MiO is a mess.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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Curbludgeon wrote:As far as the orbitals' acceptance of magic, Mutants in Orbit states that it's not known, and in the one place where it's not generally known (Outcast Station) it's instead assumed to be super powers. There's an argument that most natural psychic development wouldn't focus towards sensing the supernatural simply due to lack of exposure/relevance, so with the right effects a magical team could evade detection far more easily than they might against, say, the CS.



Very interesting. Wouldn't magic be weaker in space though?



ShadowLogan wrote:It depends on what needs fixing, but Northern Gun and Triax show that you can produce a labor robot (and the CS essentially could to) which would mean you still don't need a manned presence.


Good point but wouldn't they need someone to tell them what to do and fix them when they break? Like the CS Skelebot Specialist?


And if the CAN Republic is placing restrictions on the other orbitals and can enforce them, it seems unlikely they wouldn't be the same with anyone coming up from the Earth or them getting special treatment. Earth powers for the most part wouldn't be able to do much militarily to resolve the issue either (Splugorth and Arkhons being an obvious exception) since they wouldn't really have the "Space Force" of sufficient size to have a viable chance.

From a propulsion standpoint (ignoring trip time) the Moon isn't really any farther than Mars or asteroids, though the physical distance and trip time are bigger.


Earth powers taking over the Moon...? I'd say possible but not without a great deal of preparation. More likely, I think they'd help supply the other Colonies in their fight against the CAN Republic for help in building their own space stations and a presence on the Moon.

Also it isn't just propulsion but air, water, filters for both, and food. Longer trips means more of that is used. Plus you have to pay the crew. That makes everything more expensive and cause a lot of resentment.

If push came to shove I don't think CAN could hold the Moon. I think that's why they started allowing mining on the far side of the Moon. I think eventually, they'll allow others to put in permanent colonies but on their terms.

The thing with Trade is how much will it cost to launch the goods from the surface of the Earth to their destination? WB26 (Dinosaur Swamp) indicates that launch costs where still high even before the Great Cataclysm, and the surface worlders for the most part won't be able to do any better than that (and most likely be more expensive).


We don't know what the costs would be. We don't know what was being used to get into space. I do know that the CS and NGR, at least, have some very large aircraft that shouldn't be able to fly. If they can get vehicles like the Death's Head Transport to fly getting a ship into orbit shouldn't cost that much.


Really the only thing Earth has to offer is Water, but short of using magic teleportation methods it's going to be more cost effective to import the water from elsewhere (and when MiO was written water-ice wasn't known to be on the Moon like is now). Earth's launch capacity wouldn't be able to put much of a dent in the demand the Orbitals would have, it would take them time to develop that capacity to move it cheaply.


There's also manufacturing. The manufacturing capacities on Earth are far greater than anything the Colonies have. Even with the added cost of getting the products into orbit, they could still out produce the Colonies. I think the Colonies would be interested in that.




AzathothXy wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I've said it before... even if you assume all the nonsense that MiO put up there actually works, the Splugorth can take over everything in lunar orbit and the La Grange points with relatively little effort.


Launch the SDF-1 loaded up with Kittani and Kydians.


:lol:



Warshield73 wrote:MiO was an OK addition to Rifts when it first came out but by the time 3 or 4 more world books came out and then the introduction of the Three Galaxies it became hopelessly out of date. I think most people that use it do alter the setting a lot but for me the biggest consideration is population.

How many people, humans and mutant animals, were actually in space when the apocalypse occurred? Given the short amount of time Golden Age it could not have been more than a few thousand but how many?

Then how many died, committed suicide, returned to Earth, or were evacuated from Earth before containment become the official policy? If Rifts space is just a few thousand people in close orbit to Earth and a few hundred in the belt then a single Splugorth ship from the Three Galaxies could wipe them all out. If they have grown to hundreds of thousands or even millions with colonies in the outer planets then it is a different situation.

As for people on Earth reaching space I just assume that only a few try, mainly for satellites but also in the hopes of finding intact technology like a bunker on Earth. It takes a lot of effort to getting something into space and so it would only take a few failures for those resources to be reallocated towards something more effective. There is the huge problem of Ground based telescopes being able to see the stations and maybe even ships so you have to assume some people do know the stations exist even if they don't communicate.


There has been some updated information over the years but not much and what were were given lacks a lot of details. There really should be a revised or updated edition.

MiO does go into population. Current populations for Rifts are 3 times higher than they are for AtB unless noted. That's 18-30 thousand for each of the colonies. Considering the sizes of populations we should have numbers for their militaries and civilians.

Do we know that there are huge telescopes still working on Earth? Also with a possible magic or dimensional barrier, would the telescopes even see the colonies or a strange constellation?


MiO is not really usable on it's own but you can take a few approaches.

1-For a recent campaign I started I decided that I did not want to mess with a space community so I had the entire orbital population wiped out by an orbital defense system that has continued to increase it's numbers and improve its technology over the centuries. If you look from the Earth through telescopes all you see is debris and you hear nothing over radio. You fly up and you are obliterated by dozens even hundreds of weapons. This also prevents aliens from coming in and is what shredded the Arkohn on there return. Simple and required almost no work.

2-Create a large community that could resist some attempts from outside and maybe add some magical hazards around the Earth to limit communication and access. I did this for my first Rifts campaign and it was a lot of work because, well MiO is a mess.

Just my two cents
.

I wouldn't say it's unusable. I actually get a lot more use out of it than I do some of the World Books. I would say that it could be better.

1) That is in part how the Arkon fleet was driven off. The other part was the colony's militaries. What's lacking is the size of the fleet and militaries.

2) That's pretty much describes MiO now. The problem again is details. We have troop numbers for armies bigger than the Colonies but have little idea what the Colonies have.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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Sambot wrote:Good point but wouldn't they need someone to tell them what to do and fix them when they break? Like the CS Skelebot Specialist?

Teleprense at least as far as orders would still work. And if the 'bot(s) break, you send up a new batch.

Sambot wrote:Earth powers taking over the Moon...? I'd say possible but not without a great deal of preparation. More likely, I think they'd help supply the other Colonies in their fight against the CAN Republic for help in building their own space stations and a presence on the Moon.

Also it isn't just propulsion but air, water, filters for both, and food. Longer trips means more of that is used. Plus you have to pay the crew. That makes everything more expensive and cause a lot of resentment.

If push came to shove I don't think CAN could hold the Moon. I think that's why they started allowing mining on the far side of the Moon. I think eventually, they'll allow others to put in permanent colonies but on their terms.

The CAN Republic IS the most powerful of the Orbital community (and possibly among humans of Earth), they did not have to open the Moon up like they did, but they did (probably easier on them). No reason is given as to why, but we know CAN is the largest and most powerful of the Colonies and they contribute more to the Containment policy than others voluntarily.

Sambot wrote:We don't know what the costs would be. We don't know what was being used to get into space. I do know that the CS and NGR, at least, have some very large aircraft that shouldn't be able to fly. If they can get vehicles like the Death's Head Transport to fly getting a ship into orbit shouldn't cost that much.

True we don't know what the costs would be, but we do know it would be expensive. And none of the Surface Powers with the likely exception of the Splugorth and Arkhons have the necessary infrastructure in place to make trade viable.

Sambot wrote:There's also manufacturing. The manufacturing capacities on Earth are far greater than anything the Colonies have. Even with the added cost of getting the products into orbit, they could still out produce the Colonies. I think the Colonies would be interested in that.

While the surface world might have a far greater industrial capacity, they would hit a bottleneck with their ability to deliver the goods into space. The launch costs would be greater than it is today for LEO because none of the Orbitals are in LEO, they are for the most part at Lunar Distances.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
thorr-kan wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:a couple points..
only the Scandinavians have an active space program in the canon. the CS and NGR both gave up on their efforts long prior.
the CS gave up in PA.33 (Aftermath pg202.. "76 years prior" to PA.109), while the NGR tried in PA.71 (same page, "38 years ago" from PA.109)

Where's the quote on the Scandinavians? I've missed that somewhere.

aftermath pg202, right after the NGR mention. the scandinavians are said to be making progress, launching Long Range Missiles into space in order to watch them get destroyed in order to systematically test whats keeping people out of orbit.

Much obliged.

I need to review Triax 1 & 2 for what it says about Scandinavia separate from the NGR.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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AzathothXy wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I've said it before... even if you assume all the nonsense that MiO put up there actually works, the Splugorth can take over everything in lunar orbit and the La Grange points with relatively little effort.


Launch the SDF-1 loaded up with Kittani and Kydians.


Teleportation circles mean not worrying about escape velocity.... or counter-orbital debris fields filled with hunter-killer satellites.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:Good point but wouldn't they need someone to tell them what to do and fix them when they break? Like the CS Skelebot Specialist?

Teleprense at least as far as orders would still work. And if the 'bot(s) break, you send up a new batch.


That might not fix the problem though.





The CAN Republic IS the most powerful of the Orbital community (and possibly among humans of Earth), they did not have to open the Moon up like they did, but they did (probably easier on them). No reason is given as to why, but we know CAN is the largest and most powerful of the Colonies and they contribute more to the Containment policy than others voluntarily.



That doesn't mean they can't be taken. The more people they annoy the more they turn against them. They could defeat a station or two. Not the majority of the solar community.



True we don't know what the costs would be, but we do know it would be expensive. And none of the Surface Powers with the likely exception of the Splugorth and Arkhons have the necessary infrastructure in place to make trade viable.


While the surface world might have a far greater industrial capacity, they would hit a bottleneck with their ability to deliver the goods into space. The launch costs would be greater than it is today for LEO because none of the Orbitals are in LEO, they are for the most part at Lunar Distances.


We don't know what the costs would be. For all we know launching a shuttle and building a small space station could be less expensive than those huge mobile fortresses that the NGR and CS have.

We also know that they had the means at one point to attempt space travel. If it had been successful, I'm sure it would have been expanded on. And if they can get those massive fortresses to fly delivering products into space shouldn't be that difficult.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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Sambot wrote:That might not fix the problem though.

If you can't fix the problem with telepresence or sending up replacement labor 'bot, then its probably not going to be fixable with a human present. Which means its time to replace the platform.

Sambot wrote:That doesn't mean they can't be taken. The more people they annoy the more they turn against them. They could defeat a station or two. Not the majority of the solar community.

Except that the majority of the solar community doesn't have the resources the Big 5 (Lankia, Yuro, CAN, Freedom, Outcast) and the Big ET(Arkhon), even if they banded together. That cuts down on who is going to attack them, Outcast doesn't have a centralized leadership IIRC and Lankia is an ally. That leaves Yuro and Freedom, both of whom's combined population is less than CAN.

Technically the CAN blocking off the Moon doesn't deprive anyone of resources, it just means they have to go farther (Asteroids, Near and Belt) and from an energy perspective will be about the same, trip time is another matter (CAN imports water from Demos @ Mars). The Ceres Asteroid is home to an orbital community, they can get everything Earth's Moon provides by going to other Belt Asteroids (possibly even the Jovian or Martian "Trojan") or other Near Earth Asteroids.

Sambot wrote:We don't know what the costs would be. For all we know launching a shuttle and building a small space station could be less expensive than those huge mobile fortresses that the NGR and CS have.

Unlikely, technically we don't even know what the cost of those huge mobile fortresses is to those respective players. The US Space Shuttle cost an average of $1.2 billion per flight over its lifetime (1982-2010). The Space Station isn't going to be any better, Skylab cost $2.2 Billion (and that was reusing hardware from Apollo), the ISS cost over $100 Billion (includes Shuttle cost) to BUILD (does not include operating costs).

For a new comer to the field like the CS or NGR to come on the scene and do something comparable seems unlikely given Dinosaur Swamp's Cape Canaveral background indicates launch costs where an issue in Pre-Cat. times, so they are going to be an issue in 100 PA since they are at best using those same technologies.

The CS Firestorm Fortress costs over a billion credits, and the CS has ~30 in various stages of construction/use per CWC.

Sambot wrote:We also know that they had the means at one point to attempt space travel. If it had been successful, I'm sure it would have been expanded on. And if they can get those massive fortresses to fly delivering products into space shouldn't be that difficult.

Yes we know they attempted space travel, IIRC unmanned flights (which are historically much cheaper). Had any of those programs been successful I agree they would have been expanded upon as time went on, but that did not happen.

Getting those massive Fortresses to fly into space IS going to be difficult due to their large mass with their known available technology. In order to get a fully loaded CS Firestorm (or RMB Death's Head Transport) into orbit with current rockets would require multiple flights, and that assumes a Saturn-V/SLS level heavy Lift Launcher (what passes for Heavy Lift currently would require even more flights). The propellant requirements to launch the CS Firestorm into orbit in one go are going to be huge (even assuming nuclear technology, with chemical rockets it'd be even worse), and if you want to get to the Orbitals or the Moon its going to be even bigger since they reside outside of LEO.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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I think Naruni Enterprises is a more logical bunch to make contact with the Orbital Colonies; especially since the Colonies would need more advanced weaponry to have a chance against the Arkhons.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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The naruni have an anti-grav jet bike that they still sell on rift's earth through some locations. If the C.S. and N.G.R. had any sense they would sent "customers" to these shops to buy up as many as they can. This is what is happening in my Rift's california campaign with the partnership between teh local govt and the N.G.R. They buy up as much as they can then try to reverse engineer it. This may take a while but humans tend to be very resourceful and intelligent when they put their minds to it.

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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:That might not fix the problem though.

If you can't fix the problem with telepresence or sending up replacement labor 'bot, then its probably not going to be fixable with a human present. Which means its time to replace the platform.


That would depend on what the problem is and what kind of programming the robot has. If the station's receiver goes out, and no one is there to activate a robot to fix it, how does it get fixed?




Sambot wrote:That doesn't mean they can't be taken. The more people they annoy the more they turn against them. They could defeat a station or two. Not the majority of the solar community.

Except that the majority of the solar community doesn't have the resources the Big 5 (Lankia, Yuro, CAN, Freedom, Outcast) and the Big ET(Arkhon), even if they banded together. That cuts down on who is going to attack them, Outcast doesn't have a centralized leadership IIRC and Lankia is an ally. That leaves Yuro and Freedom, both of whom's combined population is less than CAN.


Yet the stations were able to defeat the Arkhons. Also if they were so outmatched why would Freedom and Yuro stations even think about fighting CAN? There's also the independents. There's got to be something we're missing because if CAN were all powerful, they wouldn't be allowing others to mine the moon. There is a vulnerability there that the stations can take advantage of.


Technically the CAN blocking off the Moon doesn't deprive anyone of resources, it just means they have to go farther (Asteroids, Near and Belt) and from an energy perspective will be about the same, trip time is another matter (CAN imports water from Demos @ Mars). The Ceres Asteroid is home to an orbital community, they can get everything Earth's Moon provides by going to other Belt Asteroids (possibly even the Jovian or Martian "Trojan") or other Near Earth Asteroids.


It's the time and resources spent on the trips that's annoying everyone else. If it didn't matter, the stations wouldn't care about the moon.

Sambot wrote:We don't know what the costs would be. For all we know launching a shuttle and building a small space station could be less expensive than those huge mobile fortresses that the NGR and CS have.

Unlikely, technically we don't even know what the cost of those huge mobile fortresses is to those respective players. The US Space Shuttle cost an average of $1.2 billion per flight over its lifetime (1982-2010). The Space Station isn't going to be any better, Skylab cost $2.2 Billion (and that was reusing hardware from Apollo), the ISS cost over $100 Billion (includes Shuttle cost) to BUILD (does not include operating costs).

For a new comer to the field like the CS or NGR to come on the scene and do something comparable seems unlikely given Dinosaur Swamp's Cape Canaveral background indicates launch costs where an issue in Pre-Cat. times, so they are going to be an issue in 100 PA since they are at best using those same technologies.

The CS Firestorm Fortress costs over a billion credits, and the CS has ~30 in various stages of construction/use per CWC.


The estimated cost of a Firestorm is around a billion. While it is narrower and shorter in length than the station, I think the Firestorm is taller in height. It's also nearly 3 times heavier and it can fly. If the CS can get something that big and heavy to fly, building a shuttle and getting it into orbit isn't going to cost that much. Also the CS had a space program, so cost isn't the issue. Their space program was stopped because it wasn't successful. My question is, what if it was?

Sambot wrote:We also know that they had the means at one point to attempt space travel. If it had been successful, I'm sure it would have been expanded on. And if they can get those massive fortresses to fly delivering products into space shouldn't be that difficult.

Yes we know they attempted space travel, IIRC unmanned flights (which are historically much cheaper). Had any of those programs been successful I agree they would have been expanded upon as time went on, but that did not happen.


Again, that is my question. What if they had been successful?


Getting those massive Fortresses to fly into space IS going to be difficult due to their large mass with their known available technology. In order to get a fully loaded CS Firestorm (or RMB Death's Head Transport) into orbit with current rockets would require multiple flights, and that assumes a Saturn-V/SLS level heavy Lift Launcher (what passes for Heavy Lift currently would require even more flights). The propellant requirements to launch the CS Firestorm into orbit in one go are going to be huge (even assuming nuclear technology, with chemical rockets it'd be even worse), and if you want to get to the Orbitals or the Moon its going to be even bigger since they reside outside of LEO.


I wasn't suggesting that those fortresses be sent into space, although I'm not sure it isn't impossible. The CS got them to fly. We don't know what kind of propulsion system is used to do that nor do we know what kind would be used to get into space.

I think this is part of the disconnect. These powers, even pre-rifts, are far more technologically advanced than we are now. So why are we presuming they'd be using the same technology to get into space that we abandoned 10 years ago? Sure I get that there's all kinds of tech levels. For the most part though, I would think that these spacecraft would be more advanced than real life's 40 year old shuttle program. Remember they built 5 large space stations and a moon colony with populations of thousands. I don't think you're going to do that with technology that, by then, would be over 100 years old. For all we know the shuttles used could have been the size of a Firestorm Fortress. Unfortunately, we don't know. It would be so nice if we had a really comprehensive Rifts Earth Orbit Sourcebook/Worldbook.





Fenris2020 wrote:I think Naruni Enterprises is a more logical bunch to make contact with the Orbital Colonies; especially since the Colonies would need more advanced weaponry to have a chance against the Arkhons.

Emerald MoonSilver wrote:The naruni have an anti-grav jet bike that they still sell on rift's earth through some locations. If the C.S. and N.G.R. had any sense they would sent "customers" to these shops to buy up as many as they can. This is what is happening in my Rift's california campaign with the partnership between teh local govt and the N.G.R. They buy up as much as they can then try to reverse engineer it. This may take a while but humans tend to be very resourceful and intelligent when they put their minds to it.
Emerald.



Unfortunately, the Naruni are aliens and so is their technology. The CS and Space Colonies would attack them because they are alien. I don't doubt they'd attempt to reverse engineer any technology they capture and claim it as their own but I can't see them buying from them. Fortunately for the Space Colonies, the technology they have was enough to force the Arkhons out of Earth orbit and to Mars.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

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Sambot wrote:et the stations were able to defeat the Arkhons. Also if they were so outmatched why would Freedom and Yuro stations even think about fighting CAN? There's also the independents. There's got to be something we're missing because if CAN were all powerful, they wouldn't be allowing others to mine the moon. There is a vulnerability there that the stations can take advantage of.

If you look at the Populations, the CAN Republic has the single largest human population in one place in the Solar System (outside of Earth). The number of VRRDS units they have alone exceeds the population of every other human community save Freedom (and not by much either), meaning if CAN wanted to they could go in with a large force of the VRRDS robots and wipe out entire Orbital communities and not risk loosing anyone (VRRDS being remote operated).

The only reason the Colonies won the first engagement came down to pre-existing damage and being in a state of disarray (WB9 pg68). The CAN Republic is considered the priority enemy among the colonies (largest and most powerful). The Arkhons are launching costly raids that "fail" in the short term, but in the long term are weaking CAN but none of the Orbitals are taking advantage of it because the Arkhons are the bigger threat.

As to why CAN has allowed limited exploitation of the Moon by other Colonies, it may have nothing to do with weakness on their part. It is a diplomatic move meant to improve relations with the other Orbitals. Given CAN's business origins it might be some type of business action (for all we know those miners have to pay some type of "fee" to CAN).

Sambot wrote:It's the time and resources spent on the trips that's annoying everyone else. If it didn't matter, the stations wouldn't care about the moon.

Trip time is probably a bigger complaint than resources spent. From a propulsion standpoint, the resources needed to support a trip from Yuro or Freedom can be the same as going to the Moon vs an Asteroid. What the Moon offers is physical realestate that allows easier expansion. If you consider the shape/size of the Orbital Stations it is hard to see how they could "expand" physically.

Sambot wrote:The estimated cost of a Firestorm is around a billion. While it is narrower and shorter in length than the station, I think the Firestorm is taller in height. It's also nearly 3 times heavier and it can fly. If the CS can get something that big and heavy to fly, building a shuttle and getting it into orbit isn't going to cost that much. Also the CS had a space program, so cost isn't the issue. Their space program was stopped because it wasn't successful. My question is, what if it was?

Getting something like a Firestorm to Fly based on weight is possible, the Antonov AN-225 has a maximum gross takeoff weight of 640tons (or just over half the weight) so it is not completely out of the realm of possibility. And the AN-225 can fly 36x higher and ~2.9x faster, and is roughly the same size package, and the AN-225 isn't using the most powerul turbo-fan engines either (which come in at ~1/2 the max thrust output of the most powerful turbofan engine) so between engines and speed and altitude you might be able to do it with today's technology. Where the Firestorm runs into issues is its aerodynamics.

Sambot wrote:The CS got them to fly. We don't know what kind of propulsion system is used to do that nor do we know what kind would be used to get into space.

While we do not know what kind of propulsion system is being used, we can certainly rule out more exotic options. In all likely hood the Firestorm is like everyone CS air vehicle, it uses nuclear powered jet engines (based on the powerplant and MDC location).

As for space travel, we kind of do have an idea of the technology that would be available in Pre-Rifts and Rifts time frame, especially the propulsion systems. Of the 5 systems listed in MiO ship building section, 4 of them are based on physics we know and can extrapolate from easily enough and they are the main drives in use. The idea of the building large space stations like in MiO is possible, but to be cost effective studies have found would require using the Moon as a base of operation and not Earth (look into O'Niel Colonies/Habitats).

Sambot wrote:Again, that is my question. What if they had been successful?

If the CS or NGR had been successful would would the ramifications have been. That is largely dependent on how they are able to successfully avoid the Orbitals containment effort. The only real resource that the Orbitals need and that Earth has in abundance is Water, but from a Delta-V perspective most (Yuro exception) could travel to Callisto (moon of Jupiter which has water ice, Europa would cost more) for a similar cost as going down to Earth, the difference is travel time and if they hit Mars (mining polar ice caps) instead it would be even cheaper and faster than a trip to a moon of Jupiter. Never mind if they find the source of hydrogen emissions that was discovered on the Moon after MiO was written or start to divert comets/asteroids.

The CS/NGR likely could not do anything resembling space containment or responding to alien/SN incursions in to orbit. Most if not all of their activity would likely be done using unmanned satellites. Depending on when this happens and the state of the Orbital Community, the Arkhons might come out of this in better shape than they do in canon.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Sambot »

ShadowLogan wrote:If you look at the Populations, the CAN Republic has the single largest human population in one place in the Solar System (outside of Earth). The number of VRRDS units they have alone exceeds the population of every other human community save Freedom (and not by much either), meaning if CAN wanted to they could go in with a large force of the VRRDS robots and wipe out entire Orbital communities and not risk loosing anyone (VRRDS being remote operated).


Yes the CAN Republic has the greatest concentration of people off Earth. However, the population off the moon matches and probably exceeds that of those on the moon.
No they don't have more VRRDS than other station have populations.

Freedom Station - 21,000
Laika Station - 12,000
Yuro Station - 36,000
Outcast Station - 15,000-24,000
Independents - A lot. (There' 400 Independents with populations up to 480 people.)
Freebooters + Miners - 20,000
VRRDS - 18,448
CAN Republic - 96,000

That's all pre-Arkhons though so the numbers will be less now.

VRRDS also become less effective the further they are away from their operator and end up being dependent on vulnerable satellites. The CAN Republic is also dependent on receiving ice from their own mining operations. Cut the supply and they'll be hurting in a couple months.



The only reason the Colonies won the first engagement came down to pre-existing damage and being in a state of disarray (WB9 pg68). The CAN Republic is considered the priority enemy among the colonies (largest and most powerful). The Arkhons are launching costly raids that "fail" in the short term, but in the long term are weaking CAN but none of the Orbitals are taking advantage of it because the Arkhons are the bigger threat.


That is true. Unfortunately, we don't know the size of either militaries. I would guess though, that the only remaining civilians are those that are too old, young, or weak to fight or are needed in other capacities. We really need a good update for Mutants in Space.

As to why CAN has allowed limited exploitation of the Moon by other Colonies, it may have nothing to do with weakness on their part. It is a diplomatic move meant to improve relations with the other Orbitals. Given CAN's business origins it might be some type of business action (for all we know those miners have to pay some type of "fee" to CAN).


Sure its a diplomatic move. One designed to stave off war. They're vulnerable and they know it. They have an exposed supply line for water. They can't attack any station without dividing their forces. They also don't have the numbers to fight everyone they antagonize. Fortunately, the other communities recognize there's now a greater threat.


Sambot wrote:It's the time and resources spent on the trips that's annoying everyone else. If it didn't matter, the stations wouldn't care about the moon.

Trip time is probably a bigger complaint than resources spent. From a propulsion standpoint, the resources needed to support a trip from Yuro or Freedom can be the same as going to the Moon vs an Asteroid. What the Moon offers is physical realestate that allows easier expansion. If you consider the shape/size of the Orbital Stations it is hard to see how they could "expand" physically.


It isn't just propulsion. It's the air, food, and water consumed getting there and back. There's also the cost in having to pay the crew for the extra time.


Getting something like a Firestorm to Fly based on weight is possible, the Antonov AN-225 has a maximum gross takeoff weight of 640tons (or just over half the weight) so it is not completely out of the realm of possibility. And the AN-225 can fly 36x higher and ~2.9x faster, and is roughly the same size package, and the AN-225 isn't using the most powerul turbo-fan engines either (which come in at ~1/2 the max thrust output of the most powerful turbofan engine) so between engines and speed and altitude you might be able to do it with today's technology. Where the Firestorm runs into issues is its aerodynamics
.

That last sentence is my point. If the CS can get that completely un-aerodynamic craft to fly getting a shuttle into orbit should be easy.


Sambot wrote:The CS got them to fly. We don't know what kind of propulsion system is used to do that nor do we know what kind would be used to get into space.

While we do not know what kind of propulsion system is being used, we can certainly rule out more exotic options. In all likely hood the Firestorm is like everyone CS air vehicle, it uses nuclear powered jet engines (based on the powerplant and MDC location).

As for space travel, we kind of do have an idea of the technology that would be available in Pre-Rifts and Rifts time frame, especially the propulsion systems. Of the 5 systems listed in MiO ship building section, 4 of them are based on physics we know and can extrapolate from easily enough and they are the main drives in use. The idea of the building large space stations like in MiO is possible, but to be cost effective studies have found would require using the Moon as a base of operation and not Earth (look into O'Niel Colonies/Habitats).


Sure it's nuclear powered but what provides the thrust?

Yeah. Thing is non of those drives are powerful enough to break free of Earth's gravity so we're missing something.

Sambot wrote:Again, that is my question. What if they had been successful?

If the CS or NGR had been successful would would the ramifications have been. That is largely dependent on how they are able to successfully avoid the Orbitals containment effort. The only real resource that the Orbitals need and that Earth has in abundance is Water, but from a Delta-V perspective most (Yuro exception) could travel to Callisto (moon of Jupiter which has water ice, Europa would cost more) for a similar cost as going down to Earth, the difference is travel time and if they hit Mars (mining polar ice caps) instead it would be even cheaper and faster than a trip to a moon of Jupiter. Never mind if they find the source of hydrogen emissions that was discovered on the Moon after MiO was written or start to divert comets/asteroids.

The CS/NGR likely could not do anything resembling space containment or responding to alien/SN incursions in to orbit. Most if not all of their activity would likely be done using unmanned satellites. Depending on when this happens and the state of the Orbital Community, the Arkhons might come out of this in better shape than they do in canon.


If those on Earth could get into space, containment wouldn't seem to be a priority. If they start destroying CS, NGR, and others once they get into space then they're picking a fight that they'd eventually lose. They simply can't produce the way those on Earth can. They're also more vulnerable.

I also wouldn't count out eventual trade. The CS and other could get raw materials and the colonies could get finished goods.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Sambot wrote:Yes the CAN Republic has the greatest concentration of people off Earth. However, the population off the moon matches and probably exceeds that of those on the moon.
No they don't have more VRRDS than other station have populations.

I agree they total population slants towards the orbitals (in fact if the Independents where ONE unified block they potentially have more people than CAN), but none of them individually can match CAN's population, in fact you need the other big players together.

The VRRDS population is ~18k, that's more people than Laika Station and likely Outcast (difficult to pin down), nor does any of the independents/miners on their own. Freedom's total population is really the only one, Yuro does if we don't consider the political divisions (I was looking at it at this level). A loss of a VRRDS unit also does not equate to the death/injury loss of VRRDS pilot, unlike other factions manned platforms.

Sambot wrote:Sure its a diplomatic move. One designed to stave off war. They're vulnerable and they know it. They have an exposed supply line for water. They can't attack any station without dividing their forces. They also don't have the numbers to fight everyone they antagonize. Fortunately, the other communities recognize there's now a greater threat.

All the Orbitals have an exposed supply line and need for water, and cutting that supply line could backfire as noted in MiO. Opening the Moon up does not mean they are vulnerable, we know it was in the interest of diplomacy.

Sambot wrote:It isn't just propulsion. It's the air, food, and water consumed getting there and back. There's also the cost in having to pay the crew for the extra time.

This assumes you use a manned freighter to transport the goods, an unmanned freighter would not need to worry about life support consumables or the crew.

Sambot wrote:That last sentence is my point. If the CS can get that completely un-aerodynamic craft to fly getting a shuttle into orbit should be easy.

Actually no it wouldn't be. Getting a shuttle into orbit would be hard with the CS's current technology, Chemical Rocket engines already are close to their theoretical maximum performance in the real world(w/n 6%), the only way the CS can really do better is via exotic fuels we don't have outside of theory. Nuclear is an option, but Fission engines are only 2-3x better than chemical. Lightweight alloys help, but only so much since the velocity you need to impart is the same for a 200kg person as a 200ton vehicle when getting into space.

Sambot wrote:Sure it's nuclear powered but what provides the thrust?

Yeah. Thing is non of those drives are powerful enough to break free of Earth's gravity so we're missing something.

Chemical Rockets are powerful enough (mankind has been doing it since 1957), though the Orbitals might not build anything in that category (no need). Nuclear on its own can not generate thrust, it can provide electricity for electrical drives (which heat propellant) or it can heat propellant directly and if fusion can even expel waste product directly.

Sambot wrote:If those on Earth could get into space, containment wouldn't seem to be a priority. If they start destroying CS, NGR, and others once they get into space then they're picking a fight that they'd eventually lose. They simply can't produce the way those on Earth can. They're also more vulnerable.

I also wouldn't count out eventual trade. The CS and other could get raw materials and the colonies could get finished goods.

The question is why the orbitals changed their containment priority. And if they attacked the CS/NGR, no it is not a fight they'd loose (Atlantis they would). The Orbitals have the high ground, they can theoretically employ "rods from god" or other kinetic impactors (redirected asteroids or comets) from space and devastate the CS or NGR with bombardment, avoiding a close-up battle.
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Re: Rifts in Orbit

Unread post by Emerald MoonSilver »

ShadowLogan

The question is why the orbitals changed their containment priority. And if they attacked the CS/NGR, no it is not a fight they'd loose (Atlantis they would). The Orbitals have the high ground, they can theoretically employ "rods from god" or other kinetic impactors (redirected asteroids or comets) from space and devastate the CS or NGR with bombardment, avoiding a close-up battle.


If that happened the splugorth or even naruni would take action. They would not stand for such a vital trading planet such as earth being threatened by a bunch of rogue colonies. The colonies life span would be measured in days at best if they tried to "nuke" the civilizations on Earth.

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