Magic Users and Combat...

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GangreneTVP
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Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

So, I'm wondering how people handle this.

This seems strange to me. Magic users are not "fighters" typically. So it seems strange to me that in the Ultimate Edition it's talking about spell levels 1-5 use one melee attack. Levels 6-10 use two melee attacks, and levels 11-15 use up 3 melee attacks.

If you don't take even "Basic" fighting you only get one melee attack per round. If you take HtH Basic you get 4... How would learning to fight allow you to cast more magic per round?

Do you just ignore HtH skill as giving attacks and just give magic users 5 "magical melee attacks" regardless of HtH skill chosen? How do I get 5? Well in the Ultimate Edition again it states a Level 1-5 spell takes one melee attack (ABOUT 3 SECONDS)... which a melee round being 15 seconds would allow a magic user to spit out 5 low level spells.

Do magic users typically take HtH skills to increase how fast they can cast magic? The idea of magic users using melee attacks for spells when those are assigned to HtH combat make about zero sense to me. Maybe the game should have Magic : Basic, Magic : Skilled, Magic : Master that gives more or less "Magic Attacks"?

How does everyone handle this in their games?
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Orin J. »

this game handles time during combat exceptionally weirdly, but i honestly just let the players sort themselves out because i've never seen a spellcaster that didn't take as strong a HTH as they were able. and buy a gun to use instead of casting magic to attack. spells in combat tend to be more "changing the situtation favorably" over attacking.

of course, in combat, all my players have been more "killing anyone attacking me is the most favorable change i can make" and just rarely cast spells for that but that's another sort of problem...
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Mack »

So here's a way to think about it: training in HtoH isn't just about learning to throw a punch, or how to parry. It's about learning to be comfortable in combat, not panicking, and keeping one's cool. That mental aspect is what allows a mage to quickly recite an invocation and channel his PPE. That's why a high level mage (with more melee attacks) can cast more spells in 15 seconds than a low level mage.

One might think of a mage without HtoH as more of an academic. He may have a huge repertoire and be very powerful, but he struggles to bring it to bear in an emergency.

For an example of what I'm alluding to, consider this scene from the film Glory.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by jaymz »

I'd suggest you think "attack" should actually be "action"
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:I'd suggest you think "attack" should actually be "action"


All attacks should be actions, unless the actions in question ARE attacks, in which chase they're both.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

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Mack wrote:So here's a way to think about it: training in HtoH isn't just about learning to throw a punch, or how to parry. It's about learning to be comfortable in combat, not panicking, and keeping one's cool. That mental aspect is what allows a mage to quickly recite an invocation and channel his PPE. That's why a high level mage (with more melee attacks) can cast more spells in 15 seconds than a low level mage.

One might think of a mage without HtoH as more of an academic. He may have a huge repertoire and be very powerful, but he struggles to bring it to bear in an emergency.

For an example of what I'm alluding to, consider this scene from the film Glory.

This is a really good way of describing it - makes much more sense to me and after all these years I've suddenly got no problem with the idea that actions from hand to hand help with spellcasting and other stuff. Well done! :ok:

@Grangrene TVP - for spellcasters with no hand to hand skill, you could consider spellcasting to be a "non-combat action", which non-hand-to-handers get more of. Although casting the spell might be in some way combative (like throwing a fireball), other spells are not, and it is not the same as making a strike, parry, dodge, etc.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

While a character without any HTH skill defaults to a specific table (RUE pg347), at first level they can make 3 Actions total: 2 non-combat and 1 combat action (ie attack). Both actions go up at Level 3 and 9, and at level 6 non-combat actions goes up (Total by Level 9: 3 attacks and 6 non-combat actions, BUT here it is reveled that Attack = 2 non-combat actions but it isn't clear if this is retro active to lower levels IMHO because it is brought up so late).

So in theory mages using the HTH: none table could still cast spells by spending non-combat actions. Racial modifiers still apply, so while not a factor for humans other races could see a change (there are races that have their own combat progression or have bonuses to attack).
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

Mack wrote:So here's a way to think about it: training in HtoH isn't just about learning to throw a punch, or how to parry. It's about learning to be comfortable in combat, not panicking, and keeping one's cool. That mental aspect is what allows a mage to quickly recite an invocation and channel his PPE. That's why a high level mage (with more melee attacks) can cast more spells in 15 seconds than a low level mage.

One might think of a mage without HtoH as more of an academic. He may have a huge repertoire and be very powerful, but he struggles to bring it to bear in an emergency.

For an example of what I'm alluding to, consider this scene from the film Glory.


I find these answers to be a bit lacking... Here's what gets me. Very specific times are mentioned... spell levels 1-5 (3 seconds), 6-10(6-7 seconds), 11-15(9-10 seconds). A melee round is 15 seconds. It also mentions a few paragraphs later that a magic user gaining initiative can snap off a spell before someone can swig a fist, or fire a gun. That's pretty fast.

To me if there are that kind of exact times that tells me that a spell has specific timing involved... you can't rush the words or gestures as that might mess up the spell so it has a very routine method to casting it. There is no mention of a level 10 mages casting a Level 2 spell in 1-2 seconds. So all mages should have 5 magic actions. They are more limited by the procedure than anything personal, like agility. They know the spell or they don't. It's down pat when it's "learned" and it takes x seconds.

I do see how HtH training makes one more comfortable in combat... but that is not the only way to become more comfortable in a stressful situation. I again don't think that you have to take martial arts to be a amazing magic user. I just don't see that as the reality... otherwise every great mage would also be a great fighter. Every mage OCC would have a good HtH skill as a base skill if that was the case... and it isn't... it costs them MORE to get those skills because they are so focused on their magic. To be comfortable you simply learn it and practice it in conditions where you are stressed and you can do it in a stressful situation. Mages probably aren't front line people either... more like artillery support.

Because of the routine spellcasting seems to have I think all magic users should get 5 magic actions per turn that are different than attacks or "non-combat actions". If the mage has no HtH skill and they have to throw a punch they have 1 combat action and that requires all the 15 seconds involved... therefore using up all 5 magic actions. However, if you have HtH: basic with 4 attacks and you need to punch, you'd be able to do so and still get off a spell or two as your punching didn't exhaust your entire 15 seconds, only 1/4th of it.

Now, something I just thought... It would be better is if a Melee round was 12 seconds. That would make a full 5 rounds per minute. You can have a half melee, two actions each costing 6 seconds. 1/3rd 4 seconds, 1/4th 3 seconds, 1/6th 2 seconds... it breaks down into more fractions of time evenly. If something took 8 seconds, you just used 2/3rds of your melee round.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

GangreneTVP wrote:So, I'm wondering how people handle this.

This seems strange to me. Magic users are not "fighters" typically. So it seems strange to me that in the Ultimate Edition it's talking about spell levels 1-5 use one melee attack. Levels 6-10 use two melee attacks, and levels 11-15 use up 3 melee attacks.

If you don't take even "Basic" fighting you only get one melee attack per round. If you take HtH Basic you get 4... How would learning to fight allow you to cast more magic per round?

Do you just ignore HtH skill as giving attacks and just give magic users 5 "magical melee attacks" regardless of HtH skill chosen? How do I get 5? Well in the Ultimate Edition again it states a Level 1-5 spell takes one melee attack (ABOUT 3 SECONDS)... which a melee round being 15 seconds would allow a magic user to spit out 5 low level spells.

Do magic users typically take HtH skills to increase how fast they can cast magic? The idea of magic users using melee attacks for spells when those are assigned to HtH combat make about zero sense to me. Maybe the game should have Magic : Basic, Magic : Skilled, Magic : Master that gives more or less "Magic Attacks"?

How does everyone handle this in their games?


Boxing lets you fire guns faster.
Don't overthink it.

Maybe it'd help to think of "Attacks" as a kind of attribute describing how quickly you can act and react during stressful conditions.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by narcissus »

GangreneTVP wrote:I do see how HtH training makes one more comfortable in combat... but that is not the only way to become more comfortable in a stressful situation. I again don't think that you have to take martial arts to be a amazing magic user. I just don't see that as the reality... otherwise every great mage would also be a great fighter. Every mage OCC would have a good HtH skill as a base skill if that was the case... and it isn't... it costs them MORE to get those skills because they are so focused on their magic. To be comfortable you simply learn it and practice it in conditions where you are stressed and you can do it in a stressful situation. Mages probably aren't front line people either... more like artillery support.


Hand to Hand: Basic can be taken by anyone for one secondary skill. Basic doesn't make you a great fighter, but it gives you some level of training and practice. For a spellcaster, they're more likely to be practicing casting spells quickly and under pressure than throwing punches and kicks, but the net result is the same - more actions per melee.

If a spellcaster does want to be a great fighter and take Expert or Martial Arts, that's when it starts costing them real skills, but this generally doesn't increase the number of actions much beyond Basic - just lets them throw punches and kicks and better strike/parry/dodge.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Mack »

GangreneTVP wrote:I find these answers to be a bit lacking... Here's what gets me. Very specific times are mentioned... spell levels 1-5 (3 seconds), 6-10(6-7 seconds), 11-15(9-10 seconds). A melee round is 15 seconds. It also mentions a few paragraphs later that a magic user gaining initiative can snap off a spell before someone can swig a fist, or fire a gun. That's pretty fast.

To me if there are that kind of exact times that tells me that a spell has specific timing involved... you can't rush the words or gestures as that might mess up the spell so it has a very routine method to casting it. There is no mention of a level 10 mages casting a Level 2 spell in 1-2 seconds. So all mages should have 5 magic actions. They are more limited by the procedure than anything personal, like agility. They know the spell or they don't. It's down pat when it's "learned" and it takes x seconds.

Don't over think it. The author often uses imprecise language and is flexible with numbers.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Axelmania »

I like the idea of using the untrained combat actions for spellcasting and dodges, and then any extra you get from boxing can be spent on dodges or punches, and any from HTH skills can be spent on dodges or whatever types of attacks it gives.

The untrained HTH stuff probably gives enough actions to account for firing guns fast, or wasn't there some non-canon ranged combat table in one of the rifters? I think they also did a spellcasting thing in another one come to think of it.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

outside the canon text.....
you could have the char roll their Principles of magic each time the cast a spell and if they pass their casting time is cut in half.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by ManDrakeTWise »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:outside the canon text.....
you could have the char roll their Principles of magic each time the cast a spell and if they pass their casting time is cut in half.


Technically I would label it Canon'ish (Canon Adjacent?), because it's covered in Rifter #30 (pg 30-31), under the Focus Magic skill. One of them is Burst Casting which is almost exactly what you mention here. The only difference is that it increase PPE cost by 50% to do it and depending on the spell level differences the Principles Skill percentage can be lower. I prefer the Channeling rules from Rifter #21 personally. And have Sorcerous Proficients to allow normal spell casters to cast at the higher levels of magical efficiency. But honestly spell casting speed is seldom the limiting factor for spell casters except in close combat situations, it's almost always PPE that takes them out.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I know what you're talking about.
--the R30 text, is only if you have that speciality.
--the mana channeling is sort of totally incompatible with the casting rules being talked about. Now taking in consideration the situation you brought up. As a GM I might just nerf the channeling ability to match the efficiency gain from the magic proficiency.

--and there are no Mana potions in the PB games. So you can't just Diablo it and just stock up on mana potions, store them in your tricked out BoH/belt pouch and down them as you get low on PPE.
(anime reference: see 'How not to summon a Demon Lord.')

So I agree with the idea that it is more how much magic energy the mage is what is the major limiting factor.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by ManDrakeTWise »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I know what you're talking about.
--the R30 text, is only if you have that speciality.
--the mana channeling is sort of totally incompatible with the casting rules being talked about. Now taking in consideration the situation you brought up. As a GM I might just nerf the channeling ability to match the efficiency gain from the magic proficiency.

--and there are no Mana potions in the PB games. So you can't just Diablo it and just stock up on mana potions, store them in your tricked out BoH/belt pouch and down them as you get low on PPE.
(anime reference: see 'How not to summon a Demon Lord.')

So I agree with the idea that it is more how much magic energy the mage is what is the major limiting factor.


Sorry that was me waxing philosophical about the PPE channeling rules, that should have been a separate thought/paragraph, I realized they are incompatible. I was villain monologuing again.

I would use the verbiage that there are no practical mana potions in PB games. Technically the Water Merchant from (WB21 Splynn Dimensional Market pg 21) sells PPE potions with tons of the restrictions. Starting with limit 2 per person. You have to manage to make it to Splynn and not end up as food or a slave or both. And the amount of PPE it gives you back is fairly the trivial in the grand scheme of things and it doesn't work for most magical creatures (1 6th or 7th level spell). But it does technically exist, you just can't get it, and if you can, it doesn't work on you.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:--and there are no Mana potions in the PB games. So you can't just Diablo it and just stock up on mana potions, store them in your tricked out BoH/belt pouch and down them as you get low on PPE.

I wouldn't be so sure. While the potion angle is largely correct, there are options for PPE storage that serve effectively the same purpose:
-Energy Sphere (though it doesn't appear something one can hide)
-PPE Batteries (Talismans incantations, TW or Bio-Wizard devices)
-Energy Jar (Nazcan Line Magic, BoM pg177 or SA2)
-Feast Sign (Nazcan Line Magic, BoM 177), technically it provides PPE to nourish a Psi-Stalker
-Diamonds and Emeralds (Stone Magic, this one might be limited to Stone Masters)
-Faeries Cauldron (BoM pg285 point #1, IINM WB3 Alien Plants & Magic section)
-Psi-Cola (WB12 pg84-6) or similar ISP boosters (PF2E, 2x on WB6 pg144) could serve the same purpose if the Mage can convert ISP to PPE (Restore PPE psychic healing power). I list it here because it can feed a Psi-Stalker, but do acknowledge that it is not a universal option since the mage also needs a secondary power to make this work.
-Energizer (WB6 pg143, not without side effects)
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

ManDrakeTWise wrote:snip... that there are no practical mana potions in PB games. ...snip

yup, I would agree this wording is better.

--Energy Sphere: duration is too short and any magic user can tap energy from it.
--limited to those that cam make &/or recharge them to be practical. Then the are the GMs that use them as a excuse to throw extra encounters into the mix "...because they are being drawn to the large amount of PPE."
--NLD EG not practical outside of SA unless you can make them.
--NLD FS <same as NLD EG>
--D&Es <same as PPE Bat.>
--FC there is the problem with carrying them to other places problem.
--Psi-Cola....impractical due to stated reasons and when outside of the NA distribution area.
--Energizer....not touching due to haven't opened that book in years and that it might of been sold off. (is one of the side-effects the user sprouts fluffy pink bunny ears from the top of their head?*jokes*)
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

re: Energizer.
Its actually a pill and not a potion, but the side effects involve a chance to permanently lose base PPE.

re: Psi-Cola
While Psi-Cola does have distribution restrictions, there are examples of similar products (ISP booster/replenish) elsewhere which allows greater use. One might also argue that if you can do this with ISP, then you can do it with PPE (even if only a homebrew item) given PPE and ISP can convert back and forth.

re: general
While some members on the list are restrictive in where you can get them, doesn't really invalidate that in those regions the option exists and amount to magica in a container.

PPE Batteries (and the like), while anyone can use them and you need to find someone to recharge them (if you can't), well that makes them very similar to Video Game Magica potions.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by kaid »

GangreneTVP wrote:So, I'm wondering how people handle this.

This seems strange to me. Magic users are not "fighters" typically. So it seems strange to me that in the Ultimate Edition it's talking about spell levels 1-5 use one melee attack. Levels 6-10 use two melee attacks, and levels 11-15 use up 3 melee attacks.

If you don't take even "Basic" fighting you only get one melee attack per round. If you take HtH Basic you get 4... How would learning to fight allow you to cast more magic per round?

Do you just ignore HtH skill as giving attacks and just give magic users 5 "magical melee attacks" regardless of HtH skill chosen? How do I get 5? Well in the Ultimate Edition again it states a Level 1-5 spell takes one melee attack (ABOUT 3 SECONDS)... which a melee round being 15 seconds would allow a magic user to spit out 5 low level spells.

Do magic users typically take HtH skills to increase how fast they can cast magic? The idea of magic users using melee attacks for spells when those are assigned to HtH combat make about zero sense to me. Maybe the game should have Magic : Basic, Magic : Skilled, Magic : Master that gives more or less "Magic Attacks"?

How does everyone handle this in their games?


It largely depends on what type of magic user you are talking about. Warlocks have very strong offensive spells in the level 2-5 range so they can blast decently. Most mages your utility stuff tends to be your best bang for the buck.

Mages in person to person combat are very durable if they keep reapplying armor of ithan or similar spells. Even at low levels a few rounds into a fight you have already blocked as much damage as most common MDC body armor possess. The amount of money you save on repairs is pretty huge.

As for the hand to hand stuff this is a post apocalyptic land of demons/bandits/future nazi with a burning passion to murder magic users and other fun stuff. Everybody who is willing to be an adventurer is going to learn how to at least fight at a basic level.

As for why that makes you a speedier spell caster its rifts. Why does a tail make you better at shooting a gun.
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Re: Magic Users and Combat...

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there are no Mana potions in the PB games.
So you can't just Diablo it and just stock up on mana potions, store them in your tricked out BoH/belt pouch and down them as you get low on PPE.
(anime reference: see 'How not to summon a Demon Lord.')

Even if they're not drinkable liquids in glasses I figure the PPE talisman serves that sort of role in Palladium, probably much easier to stockpile than flasks for those lacking a pouch of infinite holding
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