Current Earth Tech

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

So, does anything on current dystopia Earth (2021) come close to anything in Rifts? I would have put this in the HU or N&SS areas, but their tech base is well below current Earth, while Rifts is still somewhat aspirational.

MD armor, tanks? Energy weapons? Cybernetics, computing? Nanotech?

So, if it isn't against the rules, can we make a list of real world stuff that near Rifts tech level?

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Cybernetics we are getting very close to fully functional limbs....but then again we have had pace makers and artificial hearts for quite sometime.

Computing....we may not really be far of that either aside from things like neural intelligence ala Archie 3/7. We are very close to creating something ala simple bots like Skelebots right now. There are projects in Japan that are working on working humanoid mecha as well.

Energy weapons.....as I understand it the newest rover on Mars has a laser that can vapourize at least small rock...unless they were overexaggerating.

All in all we are catching up quickly for everything except maybe MD armour though there are those that would argue modern MBTs are in fact the equivalent of at least low level MDC armour.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
Richardson
Wanderer
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Richardson »

Actual railguns (not heavy machine guns) were unveiled by the US Navy in like 2010 I think. Some of the videos of them launching a 10' carbon rod into a target skow to make a 2' hole in one side and a 20' hole out the other are impressive. You don't need points or explosives when you've moving mach 10. Just mass.
User avatar
Zer0 Kay
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 13730
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Location: Snoqualmie, WA

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Richardson wrote:Actual railguns (not heavy machine guns) were unveiled by the US Navy in like 2010 I think. Some of the videos of them launching a 10' carbon rod into a target skow to make a 2' hole in one side and a 20' hole out the other are impressive. You don't need points or explosives when you've moving mach 10. Just mass.

USAF Airmen Magazine had an article on prototype railguns in the late 90s. Unplanned for issue that was causing a problem was the massive EM field of the battery bank torturing the metal storage shed. End plan was to have it mounted in an F-16 testbed.

Current rail guns that were supposed to be mounted on the Zumwalt cruisers have been cancelled because the rounds became too expensive. Well duh, they're trying to make a direct fire weapon into an indirect fire artillery piece and since modern gunners apparently can't be bothered with the math required to put it on target like the old Battleship gunners had to, without computers, they have to put GPS guidance onto it and control surfaces. Just use it like the freaking battleships did but add in computers...jeez.

Here it is doing rapid fire test... BTW its mach 6
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid
Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech
Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)
User avatar
Zer0 Kay
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 13730
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Location: Snoqualmie, WA

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

The video is also a great example showing how railguns would still have a muzzle flash. Except instead of being caused by combusting gasses, it is essentially an arcflash. Also why railguns couldn't be used underwater. A coilguns on the other hand wouldn't have a muzzleflash, could be use underwater and should be able to fire faster. Making the "railguns" used in Rifts more likely coilguns the troops have just gotten used to calling railguns. Only the slow firing high damage, non getting style guns could be railguns.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid
Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech
Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

"Making the "railguns" used in Rifts more likely coilguns the troops have just gotten used to calling railguns. Only the slow firing high damage, non getting style guns could be railguns."

I've been saying this 20 plus years....
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
Zer0 Kay
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 13730
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Location: Snoqualmie, WA

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

jaymz wrote:"Making the "railguns" used in Rifts more likely coilguns the troops have just gotten used to calling railguns. Only the slow firing high damage, non getting style guns could be railguns."

I've been saying this 20 plus years....

:lol: My stupid spellchecker corrected gatling to getting. :nh:
I was going to try writing that into Alaska, as well as optional rules to give reasons beyond range, damage and cost to choose different weapon types.

I was going to have a railgun on an amphibious unit where the rails go beyond the barrel and are shaped to be used as bayonets with an extra shock bonus.

Unfortunately I've lost my motivation so all those ideas will be washed away like tears... in rain.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid
Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech
Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)
User avatar
narcissus
Explorer
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by narcissus »

World's Most Powerful Laser

It's like 1D4 MD (fries a drone) but does SDC to humans.
User avatar
kaid
Knight
Posts: 4089
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by kaid »

jaymz wrote:Cybernetics we are getting very close to fully functional limbs....but then again we have had pace makers and artificial hearts for quite sometime.

Computing....we may not really be far of that either aside from things like neural intelligence ala Archie 3/7. We are very close to creating something ala simple bots like Skelebots right now. There are projects in Japan that are working on working humanoid mecha as well.

Energy weapons.....as I understand it the newest rover on Mars has a laser that can vapourize at least small rock...unless they were overexaggerating.

All in all we are catching up quickly for everything except maybe MD armour though there are those that would argue modern MBTs are in fact the equivalent of at least low level MDC armour.



The biggest issue with cybernetic limbs right now is keeping the brain from scaring up. The direct interfaces are both doable and effective but they only last for a couple years before scar tissue forms and prevents it from working. I suspect that is a solveable issue so in the next couple decades we start seeing this becoming pretty wide spread. If one positive comes out of decades of war is there is a lot of time and money being thrown at this technology.

Most of the main powers are working hard at both AI and fully autonomous weapon systems given how fast drone tech is coming along I don't see it being long before these are deployed. For ground units the big issue is power supply if there is some major battery tech breakthrough this becomes doable a lot sooner than I think most would expect.
User avatar
Orin J.
Adventurer
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: a west coast

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Orin J. »

the real shortcoming for real life is we're a couple centuries away from developing anything CLOSE to the level of power generation and storage that virtually every Sci-Fi setting has, if not more and until we get that most things just aren't going to see the kind of advancement that'd lead to fun stuff.
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Well apparently the first space hotel is set to be open in 2027.
UCAV drone carriers are on the horizon (yay, autonomous kill chains!)
Powered armor is sloooooowly coming along (Russia seems to be leading that race as the US scrapped the TALOS...which was less than realistic)
Tanks are about to become exceedingly difficult to kill now that reactive armor and active protection systems are getting built in. Of course, that makes infantry support of armor very dangerous, which makes for a handy-dandy real world justification for why powered armor needs to be built.
Lasers built into F-35's (which will fail, just like everything else about the F-35...now that the AF is both debating buying more F-15's and F-16's while already designing a lower tech support airframe for the F-35, AND also a 6th generation fighter to replace it.... GG Air Force).
Loyal Wingman projects which pairs a manned fighter with a few UAVs for defence, added weapons and extra capabilities (very similar to the Automated Attack Bits from Macross II).
Oh, and an old DARPA from 2008 project that was seeking to make aircraft with severe battle damage (such as one wing) be able to still be flight worthy... "Athena's Damage Tolerance and Autonomous Landing Solution adds a full flight automation and backup system that uses a plane's internal inertial navigation system and GPS systems to land safely by automatically adjusting to the new configuration -- a physics computation that a human is in no condition to deal with during such a crisis." Except that a human totally did that in 2014 https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/15/f-15-lands-with-one-wing/.
UAV's can now "outfight" humans in dogfights (still kinda iffy, considering the ROE of the tests.) https://www.engadget.com/alphadogfight-ai-f-16-pilot-025617519.html
Cyber is absolutely a domain of war that a peer competitor can use to jack you up if you are stupid (and US/NATO troops are very VERY cyber lax, even when TOLD TO NOT USE THEM).
https://www.engadget.com/2018-12-20-android-apps-kilswitch-apass-vulnerabilities-navy-report.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-42853072
Of course, the US Army wants a 1,000 mile range cannon...and hypersonic missiles!

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

I'd say in less than 20 years we could see at least limited use of most tech seen in Rifts except maybe the fully functional combat humanoid mecha (Full sized robots).

Everything else we are well on our way to achieving it. Even power generation....all it would take is some final breakthrough on containment systems and bam we'd have fusion generators (which iirc are exponentially more efficient and generate way more power than fission)

We have cyberlimbs that can be controlled by our brains now not to mention things like pace makers and artificial organs already exist and have for quite some time.
We have seen the rise of universal translators that currently are controlled by our smart phones but not yet self conatained (that I am aware of)
We have hand computers via smartphones.
We have limited AI (as well as AI bots in at least one offs like Sophie).
We are almost to the point of a safe deployable self driving car.
As Slade pointed out, we are not far from full fledged Power Armour.
Mecha are being researched and worked on.
Nanotech is not far off.
Man Portable Energy Weapons aren't either.
"Mega Damage" materials? We may have our equivalents already. I mean, as I understand it a direct hit from an M1 120mm smoothbore APSSDS round won't penetrate the front armor of itself (the M1) though it can penetrate every other location. If that is not MDC equivalent I do not know what is....

So while Rifts tech is cool and all, after 30 years, it really isn't that "far futuresque" anymore.

That said does any game's or Sci-Fi setting's "tech" stay that way after 30 years?

Look at Star Trek. Look at how fantastical that tech was in ToS or TNG. A LOT of that tech doesn't seem so out of reach anymore if it's not already in our hands. ToS comms? Cell Phones. Replicators? We now have 3d printers. TNG Comms? Blue Tooth. PADDs? Tablets. Tricorders? A variety of hand held detection devices. Medical? Not sure but I imagine we have met some of those items at least a rudimentary level. And I have already mentioned "universal translators" above.

We are an innovative species with a lot of ingenuity when put a task. That won't change any time soon. :)
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
Borast
Champion
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

Zer0 Kay wrote:The video is also a great example showing how railguns would still have a muzzle flash. Except instead of being caused by combusting gasses, it is essentially an arcflash. Also why railguns couldn't be used underwater. A coilguns on the other hand wouldn't have a muzzleflash, could be use underwater and should be able to fire faster. Making the "railguns" used in Rifts more likely coilguns the troops have just gotten used to calling railguns. Only the slow firing high damage, non getting style guns could be railguns.


I don't know that I'd want to fire something like that underwater...
Whether the water in the barrel becomes a slug that immediately disperses upon exiting, causing a compression wave the actual slug has to them plow through, or the round causes mega-heating of the barrel due to hyper-compression of the water in front of it...


That being said, I can remember hearing about rail-gun tests dating back to the 80's. The one that sticks-out the most is one that was about the size of an end table. They fired it at a massive plate, and the unit moved at least half a metre...the barrel was about 10cm(?) in diameter. The unit weighed (if I recall) about 3-400kilos. Saw that one on a Science show predating @discovery by a decade or more.
Fnord

Cool...I've been FAQed... atleast twice!

.sig count to date: 2

"May your day be as eventful as you wish, and may your life only hurt as much as it has to." - Me...

Normality is Relative, Sanity is Conceptual, and I am neither.
User avatar
Borast
Champion
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

slade the sniper wrote:So, does anything on current dystopia Earth (2021) come close to anything in Rifts? I would have put this in the HU or N&SS areas, but their tech base is well below current Earth, while Rifts is still somewhat aspirational.

MD armor, tanks? Energy weapons? Cybernetics, computing? Nanotech?

So, if it isn't against the rules, can we make a list of real world stuff that near Rifts tech level?

-STS


For MD armour...no, not that I can think of.
Closest I can think of would be Dragonskin body armour. They have tested ballistics gel torsos placing them on grenades, and the armour was able to prevent any shrapnel penetration. I don't know about how muffled the shock front was (or if it would be survivable by the person jumping on the grenade). BUT, it can generally easily protect against anything short of actual anti-materials rounds.

Tanks...presuming MBTs and such, as opposed to containers... ;) Haven't heard anything about any more advanced than what is currently in the US/EU and Russian or Chinese militaries.

Energy weapons...this one is all over the map. They have all kinds of high-energy weapons out there.
The one I've heard of that is closest to "general release" is a microwave beam intended for crowd control. (It supposedly causes a painful burning sensation, encouraging the people in it's area of effect to leave.) Even at close range to the emitters, it barely penetrates the skin. Essentially it is energising the nerve endings.
Another I can remember hearing about was a sonic "wall." The speaker sends an actual "beam" of sound. You literally take one step to one side or the other to exit the beam, and you can no longer hear it.
When you start going into high energy lasers, the issue - currently - is that if you're wanting one that can be used as a weapon that causes damage instead of simply blinds, we're still at the point of needing a chemical "slug." However, I have heard of some people researching on how to create lasers that can do actual damage without needing the expensive (and toxic) chemical ammunition. However, last I heard, man portable units are still over the horizon.
Oh...one thing to consider. Even a laser pointer can cause significant damage. Bundle enough together, and you can actually cut into something.

Cybernetics - other than the implantable pacemakers, artificial ears, and artificial hearts, not that I've heard about. Most advanced artificial limbs that I've heard about use essentially current detectors to activate. Place the sensors on the muscles of the limb, and it reacts to the muscles in the residual limb to do what needs be done. They are even working on feedback systems that cause pressure on the skin so the user knows when to stop squeezing.

Computing...again, all over the map. The companies making the chips are essentially trying to "out muscle" each other instead of actually making processing improvements.
Researchers, however, are working on near quantum level tech. Experiments in holographic memory technology are supposedly also in the pipeline.
In any case, the gaming desktop I'm typing this on...all 22 kilos of it, is likely going to be the size of a tablet PC inside 20 years. After all, the gaming laptop beside my "tank," bought in 2014, has a dual core 2.7gHz processor, 16GB RAM, and 2TB of storage. My first laptop from 1997 had a 1.2gHz processor, RAM in the multiple Megabyte range, and 24MB of storage...and the newer one was only about $400 more than the older one.

Nanotech is becoming a reality.
They have made actual machines at the near atomic level using scanning/tunneling electron microscopes. They literally created gear systems and made simple machines. Still a LONG way from worrying about a "grey-goo" incident. So, no molecular computers for a Looooong time yet.
Fnord

Cool...I've been FAQed... atleast twice!

.sig count to date: 2

"May your day be as eventful as you wish, and may your life only hurt as much as it has to." - Me...

Normality is Relative, Sanity is Conceptual, and I am neither.
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

tl;dr MDC armor does exist

OK, MD materials... This is kind of game mechanics heavy, but still.

In Rifts the largest non-mega damage weapon that is easily found today is a Heavy Machinegun, doing 7d6 damage per round.
There are also weapons such as the "super bazooka" doing 1d4 MD, the 40mm Grenade Launcher doing 1d4 MD, the 66mm LAW doing 1d6 MD and the 90mm Recoilless Rifle doing 1d10 MD.

All of those weapons exist today...as shown (in game terms) that all of those weapons are available in Ninjas and Superspies, march 1991, page 153. So, even if we say that those weapons are only accurate now, 29 years after publishing...then we clearly would have MD weapons already.

That isn't really the point, however. Now we have to see if there is Mega Damage armor. For that, let us check some real world armor requirements.

For Russia, the GOST R 50744-95 BR6 armor class requires it to stop 12.7 x 108 mm armor piercing ammo at 50 meters. That means this armor has to stop, 100% of the time that bullet. The 12.7x108mm is slightly larger than the US/NATO .50 cal (12.7 x 99mm). A 12.7x108mm AP round can penetrate 25mm of rolled homogenous armor (RHA), but specifically a B-32 API round will penetrate up to 29mm of RHA at 100m. So, using that as a baseline, we can say that 12.7mm x 108mm AP ammo in Palladium is equal to the 7d6 damage presented.
12.7mm x 108mm AP ammo has 17,861 Joules of energy, rounded up to 18K Joules.
12.7mm x 108 mm does 42 points of damage, and is stopped by BR6 armor.

VPAM armor ratings (used in the EU) have a PM14 armor rating that is rated to stop 14.5 x 114mm B-32 ammo, which is API, and kicks out at ~32,000 Joules, which is 170% the energy of the 12.7mm above. Lets say that this round is the very poorly defined (in Palladium) as the "Heavy Machinegun" at 5d10+6 damage. This makes PM14 armor able to stop 100%, 56 points of damage, caused by 32K Joules.

But, wait, there's more!

The NATO STANAG 4569 testing standard has a "Level 5 armor" (for vehicle armor btw) that is rated to stop 3 single hits in a "weak area" of 25mm x 137 APDS-T (or Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot - Tracer). The test data has 121.5 gram object hitting at 1258 ± 20 meters per second which comes out to 96140.8 Joules... 96,000 joules or roughly three times what the 14.5mm had, or five times what the 12.7mm had.

I suppose we can say that a 25mm APDS-T does at a minimum, the "Heavier Caliber Machinegun" found in some Palladium games that does 6d10+6 damage. So, we have armor that is "proof" against 66 points of damage all the time, even against 3 hits within 120mm in a weak spot.

But, there are some games and books that are far more detailed that gives the damage of a 25x137mm cannon as "25mm gun: Frag. 2D6 X 10, HE 6D6 X 10 or HEAT ID6 X 100" That is from the write up for the M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle for the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, page 167. That book gives the same damage ranges for the weapons used for comparison (LAW = 1d6x100; M20 super bazooka = 1d4 x 100; M-67 90mm Recoilless Rifle = 2d4 x 100) so it shouldn't be too far off.

If we use THAT info, then that would mean that at a minimum NATO STANAG 4569 class 5 armor can withstand a minimum of 3 shots of damage up to 120 SDC each. That means that there is indeed armor that can protect up to 100 points of damage in a single shot, without being destroyed. While it could be argued that it is just a way of adding a huge amount of SDC, an alternative is that it is making the object impervious to damage under 100 points.

-STS
Last edited by slade the sniper on Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Zer0 Kay
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 13730
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Location: Snoqualmie, WA

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Borast wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:So, does anything on current dystopia Earth (2021) come close to anything in Rifts? I would have put this in the HU or N&SS areas, but their tech base is well below current Earth, while Rifts is still somewhat aspirational.

MD armor, tanks? Energy weapons? Cybernetics, computing? Nanotech?

So, if it isn't against the rules, can we make a list of real world stuff that near Rifts tech level?

-STS


For MD armour...no, not that I can think of.
Closest I can think of would be Dragonskin body armour. They have tested ballistics gel torsos placing them on grenades, and the armour was able to prevent any shrapnel penetration. I don't know about how muffled the shock front was (or if it would be survivable by the person jumping on the grenade). BUT, it can generally easily protect against anything short of actual anti-materials rounds.

Tanks...presuming MBTs and such, as opposed to containers... ;) Haven't heard anything about any more advanced than what is currently in the US/EU and Russian or Chinese militaries.

Energy weapons...this one is all over the map. They have all kinds of high-energy weapons out there.
The one I've heard of that is closest to "general release" is a microwave beam intended for crowd control. (It supposedly causes a painful burning sensation, encouraging the people in it's area of effect to leave.) Even at close range to the emitters, it barely penetrates the skin. Essentially it is energising the nerve endings.
Another I can remember hearing about was a sonic "wall." The speaker sends an actual "beam" of sound. You literally take one step to one side or the other to exit the beam, and you can no longer hear it.
When you start going into high energy lasers, the issue - currently - is that if you're wanting one that can be used as a weapon that causes damage instead of simply blinds, we're still at the point of needing a chemical "slug." However, I have heard of some people researching on how to create lasers that can do actual damage without needing the expensive (and toxic) chemical ammunition. However, last I heard, man portable units are still over the horizon.
Oh...one thing to consider. Even a laser pointer can cause significant damage. Bundle enough together, and you can actually cut into something.

Cybernetics - other than the implantable pacemakers, artificial ears, and artificial hearts, not that I've heard about. Most advanced artificial limbs that I've heard about use essentially current detectors to activate. Place the sensors on the muscles of the limb, and it reacts to the muscles in the residual limb to do what needs be done. They are even working on feedback systems that cause pressure on the skin so the user knows when to stop squeezing.

Computing...again, all over the map. The companies making the chips are essentially trying to "out muscle" each other instead of actually making processing improvements.
Researchers, however, are working on near quantum level tech. Experiments in holographic memory technology are supposedly also in the pipeline.
In any case, the gaming desktop I'm typing this on...all 22 kilos of it, is likely going to be the size of a tablet PC inside 20 years. After all, the gaming laptop beside my "tank," bought in 2014, has a dual core 2.7gHz processor, 16GB RAM, and 2TB of storage. My first laptop from 1997 had a 1.2gHz processor, RAM in the multiple Megabyte range, and 24MB of storage...and the newer one was only about $400 more than the older one.

Nanotech is becoming a reality.
They have made actual machines at the near atomic level using scanning/tunneling electron microscopes. They literally created gear systems and made simple machines. Still a LONG way from worrying about a "grey-goo" incident. So, no molecular computers for a Looooong time yet.

Dragon Skin armor doesn't work... well. The tests weren't faked and ballistics are superior... but in order to allow it to be flexible the disks have to be adhered a certain way and it fails in high heat or humidity. The scales fall apart and fall to the bottom or shift enough so there is no longer uniform contact not allowing to dissipate the force over a larger area or worse acts as a guide deflecting the bullet into the space it was protecting.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid
Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech
Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Dragon Skin armor doesn't work... well. The tests weren't faked and ballistics are superior... but in order to allow it to be flexible the disks have to be adhered a certain way and it fails in high heat or humidity. The scales fall apart and fall to the bottom or shift enough so there is no longer uniform contact not allowing to dissipate the force over a larger area or worse acts as a guide deflecting the bullet into the space it was protecting.


Well, there's always Trojan Ballistics Armor.
If somebody can find the prototype the inventor made before dying.
(And IF it actually works worth a hoot)
:)
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

slade the sniper wrote:tl;dr MDC armor does exist

OK, MD materials... This is kind of game mechanics heavy, but still.

In Rifts the largest non-mega damage weapon that is easily found today is a Heavy Machinegun, doing 7d6 damage per round.
There are also weapons such as the "super bazooka" doing 1d4 MD, the 40mm Grenade Launcher doing 1d4 MD, the 66mm LAW doing 1d6 MD and the 90mm Recoilless Rifle doing 1d10 MD.


The LAW Rocket has been retconned.
There's a "Mega-Damage Version" that does the 1d6 MD, but there's also a regular version that does a lot less damage in the SDC range.
Not sure if that's happened for the other weapons listed, but if not, it probably should have. Palladium was pretty loosey-goosey over MD early on, and they had a penchant for over-estimating the damage capabilities of certain weapons.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Borast
Champion
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Dragon Skin armor doesn't work... well. The tests weren't faked and ballistics are superior... but in order to allow it to be flexible the disks have to be adhered a certain way and it fails in high heat or humidity. The scales fall apart and fall to the bottom or shift enough so there is no longer uniform contact not allowing to dissipate the force over a larger area or worse acts as a guide deflecting the bullet into the space it was protecting.


Ah...had not heard that. It's too bad. The testing on "Future Weapons" looked so promising! >sigh<
Fnord

Cool...I've been FAQed... atleast twice!

.sig count to date: 2

"May your day be as eventful as you wish, and may your life only hurt as much as it has to." - Me...

Normality is Relative, Sanity is Conceptual, and I am neither.
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:tl;dr MDC armor does exist

OK, MD materials... This is kind of game mechanics heavy, but still.

In Rifts the largest non-mega damage weapon that is easily found today is a Heavy Machinegun, doing 7d6 damage per round.
There are also weapons such as the "super bazooka" doing 1d4 MD, the 40mm Grenade Launcher doing 1d4 MD, the 66mm LAW doing 1d6 MD and the 90mm Recoilless Rifle doing 1d10 MD.


The LAW Rocket has been retconned.
There's a "Mega-Damage Version" that does the 1d6 MD, but there's also a regular version that does a lot less damage in the SDC range.
Not sure if that's happened for the other weapons listed, but if not, it probably should have. Palladium was pretty loosey-goosey over MD early on, and they had a penchant for over-estimating the damage capabilities of certain weapons.

Uh, retconned where? Please gimme a source? I mean I looked in N&SS, Rifts, and the Compendium of Modern Weapons for my game data.

As for "dragon skin" it was ever only rated at Level III, which is 7.62mmx51 AKA .308 Winchester FMJ...which in game terms means protection from 5d6 (or 30 damage). Dragon skin is hardly this amazing technology... at no point was it ever equivalent to Level IV (proof against 30-06 AP, which would reduce the AR by 2 and up the damage to 6d6 or 36 damage). Level III and Level IV armor has existed for a while, it isn't really new. The armor has just gotten lighter-ish.

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

slade the sniper wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:tl;dr MDC armor does exist

OK, MD materials... This is kind of game mechanics heavy, but still.

In Rifts the largest non-mega damage weapon that is easily found today is a Heavy Machinegun, doing 7d6 damage per round.
There are also weapons such as the "super bazooka" doing 1d4 MD, the 40mm Grenade Launcher doing 1d4 MD, the 66mm LAW doing 1d6 MD and the 90mm Recoilless Rifle doing 1d10 MD.


The LAW Rocket has been retconned.
There's a "Mega-Damage Version" that does the 1d6 MD, but there's also a regular version that does a lot less damage in the SDC range.
Not sure if that's happened for the other weapons listed, but if not, it probably should have. Palladium was pretty loosey-goosey over MD early on, and they had a penchant for over-estimating the damage capabilities of certain weapons.

Uh, retconned where? Please gimme a source? I mean I looked in N&SS, Rifts, and the Compendium of Modern Weapons for my game data.


RGMG 129
By the time of the Rifts, these weapons had largely been phased out on the modern battlefield, instead finding a niche among terrorists, revolutionaries, and the occasional criminal.
SDC Ordinance: 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 SDC
MDC Ordinance: 1d6 MD

(Similar deal with the Rocket Launcher, 90mm Recoiless Rifle, and 40mm Grenade Launcher: they all now have SDC ordinance and MD ordinance.)

EITHER somebody after the time of Rifts came up with incredibly weaker versions of these weapons,
OR the SDC stats represent our "modern" versions of these weapons as of RGMG.

There was a lot of arguing in the forums about this kind of weapon, because IIRC an original LAW could take out a decent tank stat-wise, when it would be laughable in the real world for that to happen.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Most tanks have over 1000sdc so not sure a 1d6x100 LAW was going to kill them unless you just mean mobility kills....and it would keep it the 1d6md as written. Either way their way of handling tanks versus weapons is a bit....to unrealistic for my tastes but I have my own way of fixing that.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

I'm not going to follow that...because it doesn't make any sense.
12.7mm heavy machine gun, 7d6 damage, penetrates ~20mm of armor on a good day IRL
66mm LAW (by GMG stats) does 1d6x10 damage, but penetrates ~300mm of armor...
42 damage = 20mm while 60 damage = 300mm

I'll keep my original calculations.

As for modern tanks being weak sauce...well, looking at the T-72 it has 1100 SDC, but that is just the base model. A T-72B with Kontakt 5 armor would have 2300 SDC and take half damage from tandem HEAT warheads and AP long rod ammo, and take no damage from a normal HEAT round. That is for a rather old tank.

If the propaganda is to be believed, a modern T-14 Armata tank would, by my calculations have 2700 base SDC, takes half damage from tandem HEAT warheads and AP long rod ammo, no damage from a normal HEAT round, and it can shoot down incoming missiles (80% at least) and possibly gun rounds (30%?), plus it has some anti-IR and anti-radar tech so maybe it has a -2 to hit for those types of systems.

-STS
Killer Cyborg wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:tl;dr MDC armor does exist

OK, MD materials... This is kind of game mechanics heavy, but still.

In Rifts the largest non-mega damage weapon that is easily found today is a Heavy Machinegun, doing 7d6 damage per round.
There are also weapons such as the "super bazooka" doing 1d4 MD, the 40mm Grenade Launcher doing 1d4 MD, the 66mm LAW doing 1d6 MD and the 90mm Recoilless Rifle doing 1d10 MD.


The LAW Rocket has been retconned.
There's a "Mega-Damage Version" that does the 1d6 MD, but there's also a regular version that does a lot less damage in the SDC range.
Not sure if that's happened for the other weapons listed, but if not, it probably should have. Palladium was pretty loosey-goosey over MD early on, and they had a penchant for over-estimating the damage capabilities of certain weapons.

Uh, retconned where? Please gimme a source? I mean I looked in N&SS, Rifts, and the Compendium of Modern Weapons for my game data.


RGMG 129
By the time of the Rifts, these weapons had largely been phased out on the modern battlefield, instead finding a niche among terrorists, revolutionaries, and the occasional criminal.
SDC Ordinance: 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 SDC
MDC Ordinance: 1d6 MD

(Similar deal with the Rocket Launcher, 90mm Recoiless Rifle, and 40mm Grenade Launcher: they all now have SDC ordinance and MD ordinance.)

EITHER somebody after the time of Rifts came up with incredibly weaker versions of these weapons,
OR the SDC stats represent our "modern" versions of these weapons as of RGMG.

There was a lot of arguing in the forums about this kind of weapon, because IIRC an original LAW could take out a decent tank stat-wise, when it would be laughable in the real world for that to happen.
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:Most tanks have over 1000sdc


Hm.
Which book are you looking at...?

CoCW pp 156-168
AMX-30 Main Battle Tank = 1k SDC
AMX-13 Light Tank = 700 SDC
Merkava Main Battle Tank = 1200 SDC
Centurion Man Battle Tank = 1200 SDC
Challenger Main Battle Tank = 1200
Alvis Scorpion = 500 SDC
M48A3 Main Battle Tank = 1200 SDC
T-72 Main Battle Tank = 1100 SDC

So yeah, 6 out of 8 could only be taken out with an extremely unusual single shot (max or near max damage, plus critical hit) from a LAW, but that leaves 1 tank that could be taken out by a single LAW 1/3 of the time, and another that could be taken out by a single critical most of the time.
And ANY of these could be taken out by "Two LAW rockets" with some decent damage rolls, and I believe THAT kind of thing was a big point of contention.

Here's a random site's description of the real-world version's firepower:
https://www.eliteukforces.info/special- ... ns/LAW.php
a lightweight rocket launcher in order to deal with armoured threats such as APCs. The LAW 66mm is a one-shot disposable rocket launcher that is highly effective against soft skinned vehicles and light armour, up to a range of 200 meters. LAW 66s can also be used to clear bunkers or buildings. The 66mm rocket is ineffective against a main battle tank, although in skilled hands one could be used to disable a MBT's tracks.

That doesn't SOUND like "three average hits would reliably kill a Main Battle Tank."


AND here's a Quora discussion that I don't have time to read just yet, but might be useful:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-actua ... -explosion
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

So as I said most tanks......and to say again "Either way their way of handling tanks versus weapons is a bit....to unrealistic for my tastes but I have my own way of fixing that."
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:So as I said most tanks......


And the "not sure a 1d6x100 LAW was going to kill them unless you just mean mobility kills..." part was the main point of issue, because even when one-hit-kills aren't game-possible with LAWs, 2-3 hit kills certainly are.
Which is far more damage than these weapons do in the real world.
Which is why there was a lot of talk about it being messed up.
Which might be why Palladium decided to change things.
Which is because Palladium DID change things as of the RGMG: now the 1d6 MD LAWs have been retconned to be mega-damage upgrade versions of our real-world (SDC) LAWs.
Which is relevant because of... I forget.


That pretty much sum things up?
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Except its not more damage than they do in the real world. They do a helluva lot more damage than a .50 cal bullet but no let's make barely more? BS. The issue has never been the weapon damage in this case (oddly enough). The issue is and always has been how pb treats tank levels of armour.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:Except its not more damage than they do in the real world.


You think two LAWs could blow up those tanks listed reliably, in the real world?

They do a helluva lot more damage than a .50 cal bullet but no let's make barely more? BS.


Oh, definitely. The NEW SDC damage is incredibly lame, and makes pretty much no sense.
A lot of Palladium's modern weapons damage doesn't make sense: a 5.56mm round does the same damage as a stick of dynamite.

The issue has never been the weapon damage in this case (oddly enough). The issue is and always has been how pb treats tank levels of armour.


People have had conversations about that too.
:D
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Palladium is just weird:
AMX-30 Main Battle Tank = 1k SDC...Or the same as a 16 Wheeler
AMX-13 Light Tank = 700 SDC.... or LESS than a 10 wheeler
Merkava Main Battle Tank = 1200 SDC
Centurion Man Battle Tank = 1200 SDC
Challenger Main Battle Tank = 1200
Alvis Scorpion = 500 SDC
M48A3 Main Battle Tank = 1200 SDC
T-72 Main Battle Tank = 1100 SDC

BUT at the same time they think that the Merkava has the same SDC as an M48? The M48 is a tank from 1955. The Merkava is from 1979. The M48 is 46 tons. The Merkava is 65 tons. The M48 has 110mm of rolled homogenous steel armor (although it is angled so it is equivalent 220 mm thick to penetrate it). Please note that the 300mm of penetration the LAW has WILL penetrate the M48's hull. The Merkava's armor is classified...it is also using armor that is not rolled homogenous steel so that it's armor has different equivalent protection depending on whether it is facing kinetic energy (KE) or explosives (referred to as Chemical Energy or CE). The lowest armor equivalency is 207mm on the left forward turret (face on)...behind which is.... the actual turret wall (with an additional 200mm KE at least). I "think" there is some extra .50 cal ammo stored there, which helps to stop penetrating damage and if it is open, then it acts as an air gap which serves to dissipate HEAT warhead penetration, and stops HEP spalling. and reduces normal HE overpressure to manageable levels even if it does penetrate.

So, do YOU think a 46 ton tank from 1955 with rolled RHA is equivalent to a 65 ton tank from 1979 with a still "classified" armor mix? If so, then yeah, then they both have 1200 SDC.

The problem of Palladium is not their damage, but their listings for SDC for tanks and armored vehicles.

-STS

Killer Cyborg wrote:So yeah, 6 out of 8 could only be taken out with an extremely unusual single shot (max or near max damage, plus critical hit) from a LAW, but that leaves 1 tank that could be taken out by a single LAW 1/3 of the time, and another that could be taken out by a single critical most of the time.
And ANY of these could be taken out by "Two LAW rockets" with some decent damage rolls, and I believe THAT kind of thing was a big point of contention.

Here's a random site's description of the real-world version's firepower:
https://www.eliteukforces.info/special- ... ns/LAW.php
a lightweight rocket launcher in order to deal with armoured threats such as APCs. The LAW 66mm is a one-shot disposable rocket launcher that is highly effective against soft skinned vehicles and light armour, up to a range of 200 meters. LAW 66s can also be used to clear bunkers or buildings. The 66mm rocket is ineffective against a main battle tank, although in skilled hands one could be used to disable a MBT's tracks.

That doesn't SOUND like "three average hits would reliably kill a Main Battle Tank."


AND here's a Quora discussion that I don't have time to read just yet, but might be useful:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-actua ... -explosion
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Kc - depends which tank we are talking about and as address later its how pb handles tanks taking damage/armour that's the problem

Slade - it's not the sdc necessarily either. See aforementioned issue with pb and how tanks take that damage on their armour.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
Hotrod
Knight
Posts: 3421
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Hotrod »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Borast wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:So, does anything on current dystopia Earth (2021) come close to anything in Rifts? I would have put this in the HU or N&SS areas, but their tech base is well below current Earth, while Rifts is still somewhat aspirational.

MD armor, tanks? Energy weapons? Cybernetics, computing? Nanotech?

So, if it isn't against the rules, can we make a list of real world stuff that near Rifts tech level?

-STS


For MD armour...no, not that I can think of.
Closest I can think of would be Dragonskin body armour. They have tested ballistics gel torsos placing them on grenades, and the armour was able to prevent any shrapnel penetration. I don't know about how muffled the shock front was (or if it would be survivable by the person jumping on the grenade). BUT, it can generally easily protect against anything short of actual anti-materials rounds.

Dragon Skin armor doesn't work... well. The tests weren't faked and ballistics are superior... but in order to allow it to be flexible the disks have to be adhered a certain way and it fails in high heat or humidity. The scales fall apart and fall to the bottom or shift enough so there is no longer uniform contact not allowing to dissipate the force over a larger area or worse acts as a guide deflecting the bullet into the space it was protecting.


Yes and no. The tests weren't faked, but they were only done at favorable angles to the armor. See, the "scales" in Dragon skin overlap at an angle. Thus, when they shot "straight on" at the armor, the bullets and armor looked like this:
- - - - /
rather than the conventional Army body armor, which tested like this:
- - - - |
So, with a direct shot at the front, the Dragon Skin looks fantastic, but when you shoot at it from an unfavorable angle, it's quite possible for bullets to separate the scales and penetrate. That and the aforementioned issues with heat (shipping containers in the Middle East sun get hot) are why Dragon Skin got rejected.

In any case, weaknesses in body armor wasn't what killed most soldiers in Iraq (which was the focus when Dragon Skin was considered). Weaknesses in vehicle armor to underbelly explosions led to far more deaths than problems with the Interceptor Body Armor. Well, that, and the more mundane causes like complacency, carelessness, failure to wear/use protective equipment, bad luck, and the effectiveness of certain insurgent bomb designs.

But holy cow, did the higher-ups ever love slapping more and more armor on us. We had big armor plates on our fronts and backs, extra plates on our sides/ribs, as well as extra kevlar armor flaps hanging down over our crotch, wrapping around our necks, hanging down to the tops of our butts, and wrapping around our upper arms down to our elbows. Add the first aid kit, basic load of ammunition, and any hand tools you might need (pocket knife, flashlight, et cetera), and each soldier had 70 lbs of extra weight in their body armor. For comparison purposes, that's about as much as a bomb suit weighs. And all that's without a backpack.

They piled this stuff on us, and I get why; if a vehicle gets hit with an armor-defeating IED, lots of spalling and shrapnel fly around, and body armor can (and did) save lives. There's a tradeoff, though. All that extra gear made it a lot harder to move in the vehicle, get in, get out, et cetera. Just ducking down into a turret went from a split-second maneuver to about 5-10 seconds of wiggling. If the vehicle rolls over, or if you have to pull an incapacitated soldier out, that's a problem. The Army eventually solved this by making the IOTV, which had a quick-release system to shed the armor in a few seconds.

I've followed some of the exo-skeleton/future armor development since then. I find it interesting. I'm highly skeptical of claims about stopping a .50 cal machine gun round (pistol round? sure). I also wonder sometimes about environmental body armor from a medical standpoint: how much complication would it add to rendering immediate first aid? Is this why the IRMSS got developed, so medics could help wounded folks without having to strip them first?

Anyway, hope you enjoyed my little morning ramble.
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available as an ebook, PDF,or printed book.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.
Image
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

slade the sniper wrote:Palladium is just weird


Yup.

The problem of Palladium is not their damage, but their listings for SDC for tanks and armored vehicles.


:lol:

The problem of Palladium is their damage AND their SDC listings.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:Kc - depends which tank we are talking about and as address later its how pb handles tanks taking damage/armour that's the problem


Not sure why you guys are so invested in the idea that there's only ONE problem. :-)

Sure, the way that PB handles tanks is a problem.
But their damage for LAWs was also a problem.
So they addressed the damage for LAWs, creating new problems with the LAW damage.

This is all standard Palladium.
Hell, it's pretty standard for TTRPGs in general; it's incredibly difficult to create a reality-simulation that doesn't have lots of glaring flaws.

I totally get that you're invested in your personal rules for tanks and armor.
I totally get that the way Palladium handles tanks is flawed on any number of levels.
I'm discussing the damage for LAWs as described by Palladium, and how these rules are also flawed.

Let me know which of the following sounds like an accurate depiction of a M72 LAW's firepower in the real world:
-A LAW does as much damage as 20 sticks of dynamite.
-A single LAW can blow a cabin cruiser boat in half
-A single LAW could blow medium sized pickup truck in half
-A single LAW could blow a "freight hauler" truck in half.
-A single LAW has a 2 in 3 chance of penetrating Class 4 Body Armor.
-It would take an average of 15 LAWs to blow through a bank vault door.
-A single LAW will always destroy 10 square feet of wooden wall on a single shot.

When you come up with your answers of which of those sounds about accurate, read this:
Spoiler:
"The LAW, although light and easy to use, has a small explosive charge and limited penetration. It can be defeated by a double layer brick wall backed by 4 feet (1.2 meters) of sandbags since it cannot produce a loophole in this type construction. The LAW requires at least 11 yards (10 meters) to arm. If it hits a target before it arms, it usually does not detonate.

The LAW causes only a small entry hole in an armored vehicle target, though some fragmentation or spall may occur.
Of all the common building materials, heavy stone is the most difficult to penetrate. The LAW usually will not penetrate a heavy European-style stonewall. Surface cratering is usually the only effect.

Layered brick walls are also difficult to breach with light weapons. Some brick walls can be penetrated by multiple firings, especially if they are less than three bricks thick. Five LAW rounds fired at the same spot on a 8-inch (double-brick) wall normally produces a loophole.

Wooden structural walls offer little resistance to light weapons. Even heavy timbered walls are penetrated and splintered. Three LAW rounds fired at the same area of a wood-frame wall usually produce a man-sized hole.

M72 penetration against structural materials. Earth 6 ft (1.8 m), leaving a quarter-sized hole with no span
Reinforced Concrete 2 ft (0.6 m), leaving a dime-sized hole and creating little span
Steel 12 in (305 mm), leaving a dime-sized hole

Although the penetration data for the LAW appears promising, it is not an effective breaching weapon. Test data indicates that it cannot, even with multiple shots, create a man-size breach hole."


Palladium's rules for tanks and armor are flawed.
Palladium's rules for everything are flawed, including their rules for SDC and damage.
1d6 MD is way too much damage for a LAW. It's also possibly not enough damage in certain situations.

I'm pretty sure that the amount of work and research that Palladium puts into calculating damage or damage capacity is pretty darned minor, and the lack of coherency and consistency--while entirely understandable given the difficulty of trying to replicate reality using dice and paper--shows through on pretty much every part of the game.
This also describes most other Role-Playing Games that I know of; they base their damages and damage capacities mostly on the personal knowledges of the writers, which is highly susceptible to influence from Hollywood and rumors.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Orin J.
Adventurer
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: a west coast

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Orin J. »

thinking about it, i'd argue that the damage and armor aren't the problems (in this exact debate) but rather the way we deal with explosives inflicting damage. maybe instead of bypassing the DR of the armored hull there should be a level of damage for hitting normally and then more for a hit that bypasses that rating (hitting a weak spot in the armor).

doing 1d6x100 damage is clearly excessive, but if they only deal 1d6x10 unless they get a really good shot it might be more balanced?......
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

jaymz wrote:Kc - depends which tank we are talking about and as address later its how pb handles tanks taking damage/armour that's the problem

Slade - it's not the sdc necessarily either. See aforementioned issue with pb and how tanks take that damage on their armour.

jaymz - I know. You know I know.

The problem is one of threshold and effect. There is soooo much that I could write on this, but suffice it to say it is a two step process:
1. Hit the target and penetrate the armor
2. Figure out what you hit and see if that has some effect... An RPG penetration that hits nothing literally just puts a quarter sized hole in your vehicle. A RPG penetration that hits your ammo has a chance of cooking off that ammo and turn your armored box into a flaming pyre of death. Same weapon, very different effect based on what you hit.

Now, the idea behind whittling down some sort of "hit points" isn't that terrible. It might not be very realistic in terms of giving you immediate battlefield effects of "mobility kill, firepower kill, catastrophic kill, no effect" as you slowly chop down damage points BUT, considering that if you are using big enough weapons things will either die in a hit or two or be fairly unhit. If you look at some of the tank hulls from Kursk, there are some that had AP rounds shoved halfway through their side or glacis plate armor. Does that do damage or not? It is literally stuck IN the armor. It has compromised the integrity of the entire plate, but didn't damage the workings of the vehicle.

Now, one way that I prefer to do things in Palladium is to use the armor rules from Road Hogs/Heroes Unlimited with tanks. Take the "base tank" with it's 1000 SDC...and just add on the "vehicle" armor and it's crazy high AR and extra hundreds of SDC.

Frankly, I think that is why they made MDC weapons, otherwise a tank with an AR 18 and 1200 SDC would be impervious to almost everything because that AR is so high. Getting MDC weapons is what allows weapons to actually become capable of killing heavily armored vehicles again because they can bypass AR.

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

Slade - I agree....a modified AR/Armour system is needed to somehow account for much of this. It can be done and frankly PB would never bother to try.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:Slade - I agree....a modified AR/Armour system is needed to somehow account for much of this. It can be done and frankly PB would never bother to try.


The AR system showed its flaws back in PFRPG1, and PB never fixed it.
So yeah, it's pretty clearly NOT anywhere on their To Do List.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
jaymz wrote:Slade - I agree....a modified AR/Armour system is needed to somehow account for much of this. It can be done and frankly PB would never bother to try.


The AR system showed its flaws back in PFRPG1, and PB never fixed it.
So yeah, it's pretty clearly NOT anywhere on their To Do List.

And that is why it is up to us to fix it :)

BTW what are the typical AR's for vehicles that people are using? I am still using the rules in HU as I mentioned earlier. Anyone else using something different?

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
jaymz
Palladin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by jaymz »

M1A1 in Systems Failure has an AR of 18 iirc and 1500sdc.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

jaymz, you are correct.

Also, as an aside...the AR/MDC system isn't really that bad. Low natural AR simulates tough creatures, high vehicular armor simulates that you need anti-tank weapons (simulated as MDC weapons that bypass AR). Normal AR body armor simulates that you need to destroy a bit of armor before you make it worthless (sufficiently compromised to not offer any protection).

It isn't the best system, but it IS better than the Armor Class system or Damage Reduction systems of D&D, the random damage reduction of some BRP games, the soak/wounds system of Storyteller, (or other "toughness buffing" systems) and it is easier than the BattleTech/Renegade Legion filling in boxes.

Also, is there any AR of 19 in any game (which would mean you have to roll a 20 with bonuses to hit)?

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Also, is there any Active Protection Systems detailed in any Palladium book?
Soft Kill might give a bonus to dodge? Possibly already counted in a lot of the Expert combat skills for Powered Armor or Robots. Alternately it could just be a type of ECM system like something from Robotech. You could also assume that they could fire off smoke, hot smoke, or chaff to cause the incoming missile to miss. I would say Soft Kills give a -2 to hit (or maybe an auto dodge since it is an automatic system, or maybe a +2 to dodge) although the exact bonus would be specific to the system.

Hard Kill might need something of a more extrapolative nature? Most of the close in weapons systems seem to come from spacecraft descriptions and are generally listed as a normal weapon that attacks the missile or incoming attack. That seems to be acceptable, but then you have to wonder about the SDC/MDC of the incoming weapon. I would probably just give it a chance to intercept missiles (80%) and kinetic energy projectiles (30%).

We can see that Reactive Armor reduces damage by 1/2 for kinetic and explosive type damage. "In game terms, Dominator armor, whether on their person or on their ships, takes half damage from all kinetic and explosive attacks, including nuclear and anti-matter warheads." from page 48, Dimension Book 13 - Phaseworld Fleets of the Three Galaxies.

So, assume we have an M1A2 SEP with TUSK and the Trophy APS, we can say that at a minimum the M1 would have an AR 18, 1500 SDC, a +1 to Strike (for Weapons Systems skill), half damage from Kinetic, half damage from Explosives, a -2 to hit, and about 8 shots and an 80% to shoot down missiles, and 30% to shoot down gun rounds of a certain caliber (figure 90mm or higher) if the weapon will still hit. I would say that you could probably add an additional 500 SDC at a minimum for applique armor.

It isn't quite super MDC, but considering that most things still have to roll a 19 or 20 to damage it, it is a pretty tough opponent.

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Hotrod
Knight
Posts: 3421
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Hotrod »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
jaymz wrote:Kc - depends which tank we are talking about and as address later its how pb handles tanks taking damage/armour that's the problem


Not sure why you guys are so invested in the idea that there's only ONE problem. :-)

Sure, the way that PB handles tanks is a problem.
But their damage for LAWs was also a problem.
So they addressed the damage for LAWs, creating new problems with the LAW damage.

This is all standard Palladium.
Hell, it's pretty standard for TTRPGs in general; it's incredibly difficult to create a reality-simulation that doesn't have lots of glaring flaws.

I totally get that you're invested in your personal rules for tanks and armor.
I totally get that the way Palladium handles tanks is flawed on any number of levels.
I'm discussing the damage for LAWs as described by Palladium, and how these rules are also flawed.

Let me know which of the following sounds like an accurate depiction of a M72 LAW's firepower in the real world:
-A LAW does as much damage as 20 sticks of dynamite.
-A single LAW can blow a cabin cruiser boat in half
-A single LAW could blow medium sized pickup truck in half
-A single LAW could blow a "freight hauler" truck in half.
-A single LAW has a 2 in 3 chance of penetrating Class 4 Body Armor.
-It would take an average of 15 LAWs to blow through a bank vault door.
-A single LAW will always destroy 10 square feet of wooden wall on a single shot.

When you come up with your answers of which of those sounds about accurate, read this:
Spoiler:
"The LAW, although light and easy to use, has a small explosive charge and limited penetration. It can be defeated by a double layer brick wall backed by 4 feet (1.2 meters) of sandbags since it cannot produce a loophole in this type construction. The LAW requires at least 11 yards (10 meters) to arm. If it hits a target before it arms, it usually does not detonate.

The LAW causes only a small entry hole in an armored vehicle target, though some fragmentation or spall may occur.
Of all the common building materials, heavy stone is the most difficult to penetrate. The LAW usually will not penetrate a heavy European-style stonewall. Surface cratering is usually the only effect.

Layered brick walls are also difficult to breach with light weapons. Some brick walls can be penetrated by multiple firings, especially if they are less than three bricks thick. Five LAW rounds fired at the same spot on a 8-inch (double-brick) wall normally produces a loophole.

Wooden structural walls offer little resistance to light weapons. Even heavy timbered walls are penetrated and splintered. Three LAW rounds fired at the same area of a wood-frame wall usually produce a man-sized hole.

M72 penetration against structural materials. Earth 6 ft (1.8 m), leaving a quarter-sized hole with no span
Reinforced Concrete 2 ft (0.6 m), leaving a dime-sized hole and creating little span
Steel 12 in (305 mm), leaving a dime-sized hole

Although the penetration data for the LAW appears promising, it is not an effective breaching weapon. Test data indicates that it cannot, even with multiple shots, create a man-size breach hole."


Palladium's rules for tanks and armor are flawed.
Palladium's rules for everything are flawed, including their rules for SDC and damage.
1d6 MD is way too much damage for a LAW. It's also possibly not enough damage in certain situations.

I'm pretty sure that the amount of work and research that Palladium puts into calculating damage or damage capacity is pretty darned minor, and the lack of coherency and consistency--while entirely understandable given the difficulty of trying to replicate reality using dice and paper--shows through on pretty much every part of the game.
This also describes most other Role-Playing Games that I know of; they base their damages and damage capacities mostly on the personal knowledges of the writers, which is highly susceptible to influence from Hollywood and rumors.


The LAW was never meant to make a big boom; it's a shaped-charge munition. It's designed to form a plasma jet that punches a narrow hole through armor plate. In all other directions, it's only slightly beefier than a hand grenade, and most hand grenades kill more by fragmentation than by overpressure/blast. As an antitank munition, it's meant to mess up the people inside the tank, or maybe some of its internal mechanisms. It will not destroy a tank by itself, though it might get lucky and set the tank's fuel on fire or hit the tank's magazine.

There are all kinds of countermeasures for this kind of munition. Standoff or slat armor can catch or detonate this kind of munition prematurely, so that the plasma jet doesn't penetrate as well. Reactive armor can prevent the plasma jet from forming properly. There are also shaped charge munitions that are designed to overcome some of these countermeaures. Capturing all these nuances in an RPG is going to be difficult under the best circumstances.
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available as an ebook, PDF,or printed book.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.
Image
User avatar
Borast
Champion
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
jaymz wrote:Slade - I agree....a modified AR/Armour system is needed to somehow account for much of this. It can be done and frankly PB would never bother to try.


The AR system showed its flaws back in PFRPG1, and PB never fixed it.
So yeah, it's pretty clearly NOT anywhere on their To Do List.


To an extent, I have no issues with the AR/[S/M]DC system, even with the "retconned" ability to damage MDC systems with SDC effects.

The issue (main) I have is the application. The way the system is written, someone with a .22 pistol and unlimited ammo can turn the QE2 into swiss cheese and sink it. Despite the fact the metal is 60 years old and has been exposed to the elements the entire time, I have a hard time believing that (most) anti-personnel weapons would do more than scratch the paint and (eventually, using the old physics saw of a toddler vs the QE2) push it away from the dock...even using the most favourable angles so the munitions hit flat instead of slanted plates. Even taking into account, ARs. (Even with the effect of effectively reducing AR by two for Armour Piercing ammo.)

After all, take a person in modern body armour, have him/her jump on a grenade, using the body armour absorb the blast...the jumper is dead, even if the grenade doesn't do enough damage to penetrate, because of the shock front. But the way the rules are written (even with the doubling of damage for someone doing so), the person, if they are EXCEPTIONALLY lucky, WILL survive.

In any case...are we starting to wander away from the original topic? :)
Fnord

Cool...I've been FAQed... atleast twice!

.sig count to date: 2

"May your day be as eventful as you wish, and may your life only hurt as much as it has to." - Me...

Normality is Relative, Sanity is Conceptual, and I am neither.
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Hotrod wrote:The LAW was never meant to make a big boom; it's a shaped-charge munition. It's designed to form a plasma jet that punches a narrow hole through armor plate. In all other directions, it's only slightly beefier than a hand grenade, and most hand grenades kill more by fragmentation than by overpressure/blast. As an antitank munition, it's meant to mess up the people inside the tank, or maybe some of its internal mechanisms. It will not destroy a tank by itself, though it might get lucky and set the tank's fuel on fire or hit the tank's magazine.

There are all kinds of countermeasures for this kind of munition. Standoff or slat armor can catch or detonate this kind of munition prematurely, so that the plasma jet doesn't penetrate as well. Reactive armor can prevent the plasma jet from forming properly. There are also shaped charge munitions that are designed to overcome some of these countermeaures. Capturing all these nuances in an RPG is going to be difficult under the best circumstances.

Hotrod...
please see pictures and slow mo video of HEAT warhead explosions...they are big. The size of the explosion doesn't really change with the mass of the explosive...the difference is where the force is directed (all around or in a specific direction), and I NO NO NO there is no plasma jet!!!!! Where this stupid idea came from, I don't know. OK, here is how it works. Explosion goes off, and via the Monroe effect the front liner of the explosive (the "hollow part" of a "hollow charge") is scrunched together in a very hot, very dense blob of copper. At these pressures, most things tend to act as fluids (plasticity), so the blob of copper is now basically a bullet that is pushed (via the explosion) through the armor via kinetic energy...the reason the armor looks "melted" is not due to heat, but rather the aforementioned plasticity where the metal is pushed out of the way of the copper bullet (commonly referred to as a "slug" or "penetrator.") A good way to visualize this is to watch slo mo video of regular bullets hitting ballistic gelatin or ballistic clay and the difference between the "temporary" cavity and the "permanent" cavity. There is no "plasma" and although there is a lot of heat, that is not the damage mechanism.

Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that the LAW is to open up the tank or damage the people inside. That effect is called "spalling" which is basically all the little chunks of armor pushed out of the way of the copper "bullet" go flying around the inside of the tank. The problem is that an anti-spalling is both easy to make, and very cheap...just put some soft armor or a hard plate of fiber armor on the inside to catch those fragments. Spalling is not really the main damage mechanism for HEAT rounds anyway. That is what HEP rounds do. Due to the widespread adoption of anti-spalling layers and air gapped armor, HEP is almost unheard of these days. Oh, KE rounds cause spalling as well.

As for what a HEAT round does inside the vehicle, imagine an inch wide molten bullet of copper entering the vehicle at ~2500 C (or ~4500 F). If that hits anything flammable, it will burn. That is why so many things are made to be unflammable now (except for fuel and ammo really). The problem is that fuel and ammo are the largest volume of a vehicle. On average a tank has 40 rounds for the main gun (the .50 cal and below ammo with pop off, but tends to act as armor instead of an explosive when hit by HEAT or KE rounds). So 250 to 400 gallons of fuel for an AFV or 500 to 900 gallons for a tank. That is a lot of volume to set on fire.

Just please don't use the "plasma" thing anymore...it is a pet peeve of mine and I have had to explain it sooooo many times. Thanks.

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Borast
Champion
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

Slade...I know the feeling. I have a few of those too...
However, much of the "official" descriptions I've heard when watching shows like "Future Weapons" (when it was still running), tend to describe what the copper cone turns into once the warhead goes off as plasma.
Fnord

Cool...I've been FAQed... atleast twice!

.sig count to date: 2

"May your day be as eventful as you wish, and may your life only hurt as much as it has to." - Me...

Normality is Relative, Sanity is Conceptual, and I am neither.
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Borast wrote:Slade...I know the feeling. I have a few of those too...
However, much of the "official" descriptions I've heard when watching shows like "Future Weapons" (when it was still running), tend to describe what the copper cone turns into once the warhead goes off as plasma.

Those TV shows are wrong. Plasma is a state of matter...ionized gas and free electrons. It is NOT plasma, it IS a very high temperate blob of metal is composed of the inner liner of the shaped charge...usually copper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_anti-tank

Full disclosure: I used to teach this stuff.

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Borast
Champion
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Borast »

Understand...
Full disclosure... I have science magazines in my apartment bought new by myself that are older than most gamers I know of. ;) Mind, my original model Co-Co (bought new for my sister and I) is older than most of 'em too!
Fnord

Cool...I've been FAQed... atleast twice!

.sig count to date: 2

"May your day be as eventful as you wish, and may your life only hurt as much as it has to." - Me...

Normality is Relative, Sanity is Conceptual, and I am neither.
User avatar
slade the sniper
Hero
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:46 am
Location: SDF-1, Macross Island

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Google Images: shaped charge jet gives some really good visuals.

-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
User avatar
Hotrod
Knight
Posts: 3421
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Hotrod »

slade the sniper wrote:
Hotrod wrote:The LAW was never meant to make a big boom; it's a shaped-charge munition. It's designed to form a plasma jet that punches a narrow hole through armor plate. In all other directions, it's only slightly beefier than a hand grenade, and most hand grenades kill more by fragmentation than by overpressure/blast. As an antitank munition, it's meant to mess up the people inside the tank, or maybe some of its internal mechanisms. It will not destroy a tank by itself, though it might get lucky and set the tank's fuel on fire or hit the tank's magazine.

There are all kinds of countermeasures for this kind of munition. Standoff or slat armor can catch or detonate this kind of munition prematurely, so that the plasma jet doesn't penetrate as well. Reactive armor can prevent the plasma jet from forming properly. There are also shaped charge munitions that are designed to overcome some of these countermeaures. Capturing all these nuances in an RPG is going to be difficult under the best circumstances.

Hotrod...
please see pictures and slow mo video of HEAT warhead explosions...they are big. The size of the explosion doesn't really change with the mass of the explosive...the difference is where the force is directed (all around or in a specific direction), and I NO NO NO there is no plasma jet!!!!! Where this stupid idea came from, I don't know. OK, here is how it works. Explosion goes off, and via the Monroe effect the front liner of the explosive (the "hollow part" of a "hollow charge") is scrunched together in a very hot, very dense blob of copper. At these pressures, most things tend to act as fluids (plasticity), so the blob of copper is now basically a bullet that is pushed (via the explosion) through the armor via kinetic energy...the reason the armor looks "melted" is not due to heat, but rather the aforementioned plasticity where the metal is pushed out of the way of the copper bullet (commonly referred to as a "slug" or "penetrator.") A good way to visualize this is to watch slo mo video of regular bullets hitting ballistic gelatin or ballistic clay and the difference between the "temporary" cavity and the "permanent" cavity. There is no "plasma" and although there is a lot of heat, that is not the damage mechanism.

Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that the LAW is to open up the tank or damage the people inside. That effect is called "spalling" which is basically all the little chunks of armor pushed out of the way of the copper "bullet" go flying around the inside of the tank. The problem is that an anti-spalling is both easy to make, and very cheap...just put some soft armor or a hard plate of fiber armor on the inside to catch those fragments. Spalling is not really the main damage mechanism for HEAT rounds anyway. That is what HEP rounds do. Due to the widespread adoption of anti-spalling layers and air gapped armor, HEP is almost unheard of these days. Oh, KE rounds cause spalling as well.

As for what a HEAT round does inside the vehicle, imagine an inch wide molten bullet of copper entering the vehicle at ~2500 C (or ~4500 F). If that hits anything flammable, it will burn. That is why so many things are made to be unflammable now (except for fuel and ammo really). The problem is that fuel and ammo are the largest volume of a vehicle. On average a tank has 40 rounds for the main gun (the .50 cal and below ammo with pop off, but tends to act as armor instead of an explosive when hit by HEAT or KE rounds). So 250 to 400 gallons of fuel for an AFV or 500 to 900 gallons for a tank. That is a lot of volume to set on fire.

Just please don't use the "plasma" thing anymore...it is a pet peeve of mine and I have had to explain it sooooo many times. Thanks.

-STS

Interesting. While I agree with some of what you're saying, my experience belies some of your points:

1. The "copper lining" is unnecessary; a shaped charge made of cast explosive will still form a jet with significant penetrating power. Many shaped-charge munitions add a liner that helps, but the liner isn't necessary for the Munroe Effect. It is required for the Misznay Schardin effect (aka explosively formed penetrator or EFP), which is a shallower hemispherical shape that always requires a liner, which is focused and formed into a slug of metal in a liquid state. My observational experience is that shaped charge munitions tend to leave cleaner holes and less fragmentation on the other side of armor, while EFP/Misznay Schardin munitions tend to have more splatter/fragmentation flying around the inside of a vehicle, as you describe. Both can cause spalling, though nowhere near as much as a HEP munition.

2. Shaped charge munitions aren't necessarily large, nor are their explosions necessarily large. I've seen shaped charges the size of the tip of my thumb, and I've seen them as big as a wastepaper basket.

3. The "plasma jet" comes from my training/education in bomb disposal. This was technical training, not academic (they use non-scientific terms like "setback" and "centrifugal force" in lieu of "intertia," as they keep the science at a high school level) You may be entirely correct that the Munroe Effect's jet might not necessarily always be so energy-dense and high-temperature as to shed some electrons and form a plasma, especially for something like a copper liner, since copper has more electrons than air or the explosive gas products. That said, I wouldn't rule out that jet being a plasma either, at least not in part with the focused explosive energy and hypersonic velocity and resulting friction that happens in both forming and dissipating an explosive jet. I respect that this is a pet peeve for you, and I'm not educated enough on the topic to challenge your assertion. Whether the jet that punches through armor and kills people is a plasma or has some plasma in it is, to me, a semantic red herring, but it bugs you, so I'll try to remember not to use that term when discussing shaped charges with you in future.

4. Antitank munitions are used to wound and kill people inside armored vehicles, including tanks. That may not be what many of their designers meant for them, but in practice, that's how their users tend to use them: they tend to aim at areas where the crews are. This might not be as effective as targeting fuel tanks or ammunition storage, but it can and does work, too.

Always fun to talk shop with an explosives person.
Hotrod
Author, Rifter Contributor, and Map Artist
Duty's Edge, a Rifts novel. Available as an ebook, PDF,or printed book.
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.
Image
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27954
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Current Earth Tech

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

So what I'm getting is that LAW rockets are plasma weapons, right...?

;)
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”