Nuclear fallout?

[PalladiumBrony]

Is there anything in Rifts, or the Rifts-adjacent settings (Chaos Earth etc) that covers nuclear fallout (how long it persists, how far it spreads, and the penalties for exposure)? Preferably something that's easy to convert to SDC if it's in megadamage - as Rifts is likely to be. I know Sourcebook 4 (Coalition Navy) has the effects of "prompt radiation" - the radiation that's released in the exact nanosecond the nuke goes off - but a lot of the weapons the Coalition use produce minimal to no fallout. I'm sure there's something in the world of Rifts that does produce plenty of fallout - even if it's just an old pre-Rifts power station that's melted down or naasty toxic waste.

[Hotrod]

Is there anything in Rifts, or the Rifts-adjacent settings (Chaos Earth etc) that covers nuclear fallout (how long it persists, how far it spreads, and the penalties for exposure)? Preferably something that's easy to convert to SDC if it's in megadamage - as Rifts is likely to be. I know Sourcebook 4 (Coalition Navy) has the effects of "prompt radiation" - the radiation that's released in the exact nanosecond the nuke goes off - but a lot of the weapons the Coalition use produce minimal to no fallout. I'm sure there's something in the world of Rifts that does produce plenty of fallout - even if it's just an old pre-Rifts power station that's melted down or naasty toxic waste.

I can't speak to the rules, but I actually work with radiation safety in real life, and it's not that hard to model. In layman's terms, radiation can kill you two ways:

The first way is fairly quick: radiation sickness, or acute radiation syndrome. This is when you take a whole lot of radiation (generally more than 1 Gray, 100 rads, or 100 Roentgen, depending on how you measure) in a short period of time (hours to days). You can survive and recover from this on your own if you don't take too much (less than 300-400 rads). With medical intervention, you might survive maybe up to 800-900 rads. Much higher than that, and it just becomes a question of how quickly you die, generally a matter of weeks to days to hours as the dose ramps up.

The second way is by increasing your risks of dying from cancer younger than you would have otherwise. This generally takes years and often doesn't happen at all.

In terms of fallout, there are a lot of factors to consider. First, did the nuclear fireball touch the ground? If not, you have an airburst, which produces basically no fallout. Second, did the blast happen upwind of you? This can get a little complicated, since winds don't move the same directions at different altitudes, but if the blast happened downwind, you generally won't have fallout where you are. Third, how far away was the blast? The farther away, the longer the fallout will take to reach you and the less intense the radiation will be from the fallout.

Then there's weather to consider. Any kind of eroding weather will tend to wash fallout away, so rain and wind are your friends. Calm, dry weather means that you're stuck with the fallout and you have to wait for it to decay to safe levels.

The good news is, this doesn't take all that long. In terms of intensity, the amount of radiation you'll get from fallout decreases exponentially, so even areas with intense fallout should see that fallout reduce down to safe levels within a few days to a week or so. The bad news is that you basically have to hunker down in your fallout shelter until then.

In the context of Rifts, there's also the factor of armor and vehicles that can provide some protection from radiation. Environmental armor will stop you from inhaling radioactive particles, and the more shielding you have and the higher you are off the ground in a robot vehicle, the better.

You might be interested in Duty's Edge; a character has to deal with a lot of this stuff in the story.

[PalladiumBrony]

so even areas with intense fallout should see that fallout reduce down to safe levels within a few days to a week or so.

So all these post-apocalyptic scenarios about whole regions, if not an entire country, being dangerously irradiated years or decades or even centuries after the wars that caused the radiation are complete fabrications? Like how in Fallout the majority of the Wasteland isn't actually radioactive any more, but certain places like the Glowing Sea continue to be radioactive 210 years after the fact (in that specific case, from the sheer number of nukes dropped in that one spot). Plus they have "Radstorms" where the lightning itself causes bursts of gamma rays (or whatever it is that Geiger counters pick up) and can irradiate you. Beyond that the only examples I can think of are things that logically should be radioactive, like barrels of "toxic waste".

[Orin J.]

so even areas with intense fallout should see that fallout reduce down to safe levels within a few days to a week or so.

So all these post-apocalyptic scenarios about whole regions, if not an entire country, being dangerously irradiated years or decades or even centuries after the wars that caused the radiation are complete fabrications? Like how in Fallout the majority of the Wasteland isn't actually radioactive any more, but certain places like the Glowing Sea continue to be radioactive 210 years after the fact (in that specific case, from the sheer number of nukes dropped in that one spot). Plus they have "Radstorms" where the lightning itself causes bursts of gamma rays (or whatever it is that Geiger counters pick up) and can irradiate you. Beyond that the only examples I can think of are things that logically should be radioactive, like barrels of "toxic waste".

it's partly fabricated, since very few people really understand how radiation works. you'd need to somehow make debris in the area absorb enough radioactive material (through particulate isotopes or actual nuclear enrichment into an isotope) to become dangerously radioactive itself and usually there's very little material that could do that even if you DID bombard the area with "clean" radiation to staggering degrees there should be very little dangerously radioactive material behind, and it would be concentrated in a very small area.

with fallout i always assumed the problem was that they were using some fairly suspect atomic breeders for everything from cars to clock radios because "atomic age!" and the bombs simply blasted them all open to the point there's a disturbing amount of loose radioactive material everywhere.

[Captain_Nibbz]

with fallout i always assumed the problem was that they were using some fairly suspect atomic breeders for everything from cars to clock radios because "atomic age!" and the bombs simply blasted them all open to the point there's a disturbing amount of loose radioactive material everywhere.

Yeah, I always assumed this as well. Everything from the fridge to the car to the robot that cleans your house had a mini-nuclear reactor powering it. Hit all that smaller material with a nuke and suddenly you've got a dozen miniature dirty bombs irradiating every house on the block. Multiply that by a population density like that found in pre-war Boston or DC? Yeah, gonna have some problems Maybe not on the scale that Fallout continues on the radiation dangers, but I think a lot of the timeline is just because of how weird the end of Fallout 2 was (I think that last thread of that game goes on for like . . . 150 years or something like that, which is why its been so far after the apocalypse for them and there are still all these problems).

[Warshield73]

so even areas with intense fallout should see that fallout reduce down to safe levels within a few days to a week or so.

So all these post-apocalyptic scenarios about whole regions, if not an entire country, being dangerously irradiated years or decades or even centuries after the wars that caused the radiation are complete fabrications? Like how in Fallout the majority of the Wasteland isn't actually radioactive any more, but certain places like the Glowing Sea continue to be radioactive 210 years after the fact (in that specific case, from the sheer number of nukes dropped in that one spot). Plus they have "Radstorms" where the lightning itself causes bursts of gamma rays (or whatever it is that Geiger counters pick up) and can irradiate you. Beyond that the only examples I can think of are things that logically should be radioactive, like barrels of "toxic waste".

it's partly fabricated, since very few people really understand how radiation works. you'd need to somehow make debris in the area absorb enough radioactive material (through particulate isotopes or actual nuclear enrichment into an isotope) to become dangerously radioactive itself and usually there's very little material that could do that even if you DID bombard the area with "clean" radiation to staggering degrees there should be very little dangerously radioactive material behind, and it would be concentrated in a very small area.

with fallout i always assumed the problem was that they were using some fairly suspect atomic breeders for everything from cars to clock radios because "atomic age!" and the bombs simply blasted them all open to the point there's a disturbing amount of loose radioactive material everywhere.

Most of this is just residual from the '50's through the '80's when radiation wasn't well understood and it just got into pop culture in movies and TV and just hasn't left. Also, it's just too cool in video games and movies to have these radioactive areas so like a lot of things the rule of cool just takes over.

[PalladiumBrony]

OK, back on topic... Is there anywhere in any Rifts property that covers areas of nuclear fallout like we've been discussing? Areas that it's dangerous to just be in for any prolonged period (whether recently after a nuclear strike, or areas just permanently irradiated because sci-fi) without any sort of protective lead suit.

[Captain_Nibbz]

OK, back on topic... Is there anywhere in any Rifts property that covers areas of nuclear fallout like we've been discussing? Areas that it's dangerous to just be in for any prolonged period (whether recently after a nuclear strike, or areas just permanently irradiated because sci-fi) without any sort of protective lead suit.

Short answer I think is no

Personally, I would tack on maybe a "RAD Level" score. Probably make it equal to the character's P.E. score. Radiated areas deal a particular number of points based on how irradiated an area is (like 1 point per hour for a light area, 10 points for a heavy area, etc.). Once the character meets their RAD Level, they fall unconscious and die without medical treatment. Might even be fun to use the lingering injury table to account for like . . . limbs lost to radiation damage that couldn't be saved or limited functioning of the brain because it got microwaved for all intents and purposes.

If someone has an official by-the-book answer though, I'll defer to them

[Warshield73]

I don't have time to look right now but these places might have what you are looking for. New York WB Mad Haven and maybe New West WB. Also Rifter 18 and 19 might have something in the CS sections.

[Captain_Nibbz]

I don't have time to look right now but these places might have what you are looking for. New York WB Mad Haven and maybe New West WB. Also Rifter 18 and 19 might have something in the CS sections.

I am super bored at work and have all these in PDF form, I'll skim and report back.

Edit 1: Found this in WB14 (New West) under the Keep of the Desert OCC/NPC:

Extremely Radioactive. This character radiates extreme levels of radiation out to about 10 feet (3 m). Anybody caught within that 10 foot (3m) radius will take I D6 hit points of damage per hour of exposure.

Edit 2: Nothing in Madhaven

Edit 3: Nothing in Rifter 18 or 19 either. I suspect that, as someone mentioned down thread, that there just isn't much other than a handwave of "radiation=bad but unavoidable" and that it makes mutants and gives you super powers.

[glitterboy2098]

Palladium has largely avoided issues of radiation that aren't comic book "radiation makes mutants" stuff. i think the only rules we have for more typical radiation exposure are some of the side effects of nuclear superpowers in HU2. (SB4 has some stuff for the radiation pulse of a nuke but that is very much the extreme end of the scale..)

Rifts has some areas described as radioactive due to vague events during the cataclysm or new dark age, but they're basically just one or two lines about "yeah its radioactive and thus dangerous to travel in"
they even avoided actual effects for a breached nuclear power pack in the RMB, and barely mentioned such packs in RUE. i suspect that radiation is like biological warfare and plagues.. incredibly dangerous and if given specific rules prone to killing characters and ruining the fun of PB's generally more "cinematic" approach to gameplay. thus it makes good set dressing but GM's and players get encouraged to wing it and ignore the realities in favor of entertainment.

[Hotrod]

so even areas with intense fallout should see that fallout reduce down to safe levels within a few days to a week or so.

So all these post-apocalyptic scenarios about whole regions, if not an entire country, being dangerously irradiated years or decades or even centuries after the wars that caused the radiation are complete fabrications? Like how in Fallout the majority of the Wasteland isn't actually radioactive any more, but certain places like the Glowing Sea continue to be radioactive 210 years after the fact (in that specific case, from the sheer number of nukes dropped in that one spot). Plus they have "Radstorms" where the lightning itself causes bursts of gamma rays (or whatever it is that Geiger counters pick up) and can irradiate you. Beyond that the only examples I can think of are things that logically should be radioactive, like barrels of "toxic waste".

Short answer: they are wild exaggerations at best, and outright fabrications at worst. Fallout (the game series) is not realistic in how it portrays radiation. Like, not at all. This isn't a criticism; Fallout is science fiction, and the game creators have been very open about their products not portraying radiation in a realistic way.

Long answer: Fallout is like a giant, messy soup made of everything that comes out of fission, and different radioactive isotopes in fallout decay at different rates. Some have half-lives measured in minutes, some in hours, and some in years, and some in millennia or longer. Good news is, the ones that are the most radioactive decay away the fastest. Other good news is, the ones that take hundreds of thousands of years to decay away are so inactive that they aren't much of a threat. Bad news is, there are some that have half lives measured in decades, and that's kind of a nasty medium. Cesium-137 and Cobalt-60 are examples of these.

It is possible to contaminate an area with so much of these medium-lived isotopes that living things there are affected. That's not a permanent thing. Even if you paste an area like the Trinity Test Site, you might make it measurably more radioactive for decades or even centuries after, but just because something is measureable does not make it an actual radioactive problem for people.

There's natural radiation hitting you all the time from the cosmos and from the ground, and there are places where people live like Ramsar, Iran, where the natural background radiation is far, far higher than what you have at the Trinity Test Site.

You also have to consider that exploding a nuclear weapon on the ground is actually a pretty inefficient way to use it. Airbursts are far more effective because the fireball can shine down and cook a larger target area. If you pop a nuke on the ground, things like hills, buildings, et cetera are going to get in the way and reduce the affected area. Plus a good portion of your fireball will be in the ground.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Edited my previous post to include the information that I found. Looks like Glitterboy is probably right in the treatment of radiation.

[guardiandashi]

so even areas with intense fallout should see that fallout reduce down to safe levels within a few days to a week or so.

So all these post-apocalyptic scenarios about whole regions, if not an entire country, being dangerously irradiated years or decades or even centuries after the wars that caused the radiation are complete fabrications? Like how in Fallout the majority of the Wasteland isn't actually radioactive any more, but certain places like the Glowing Sea continue to be radioactive 210 years after the fact (in that specific case, from the sheer number of nukes dropped in that one spot). Plus they have "Radstorms" where the lightning itself causes bursts of gamma rays (or whatever it is that Geiger counters pick up) and can irradiate you. Beyond that the only examples I can think of are things that logically should be radioactive, like barrels of "toxic waste".

Short answer: they are wild exaggerations at best, and outright fabrications at worst. Fallout (the game series) is not realistic in how it portrays radiation. Like, not at all. This isn't a criticism; Fallout is science fiction, and the game creators have been very open about their products not portraying radiation in a realistic way.

Long answer: Fallout is like a giant, messy soup made of everything that comes out of fission, and different radioactive isotopes in fallout decay at different rates. Some have half-lives measured in minutes, some in hours, and some in years, and some in millennia or longer. Good news is, the ones that are the most radioactive decay away the fastest. Other good news is, the ones that take hundreds of thousands of years to decay away are so inactive that they aren't much of a threat. Bad news is, there are some that have half lives measured in decades, and that's kind of a nasty medium. Cesium-137 and Cobalt-60 are examples of these.

It is possible to contaminate an area with so much of these medium-lived isotopes that living things there are affected. That's not a permanent thing. Even if you paste an area like the Trinity Test Site, you might make it measurably more radioactive for decades or even centuries after, but just because something is measureable does not make it an actual radioactive problem for people.

There's natural radiation hitting you all the time from the cosmos and from the ground, and there are places where people live like Ramsar, Iran, where the natural background radiation is far, far higher than what you have at the Trinity Test Site.

You also have to consider that exploding a nuclear weapon on the ground is actually a pretty inefficient way to use it. Airbursts are far more effective because the fireball can shine down and cook a larger target area. If you pop a nuke on the ground, things like hills, buildings, et cetera are going to get in the way and reduce the affected area. Plus a good portion of your fireball will be in the ground.

my 2cents
in the fallout series you have a number of things going on that make it very unrealistic ... unless you are deliberately trying to poison the environment i'm thinking a combination of wargames movie, Global thermonuclear War scenario, and short circuit movie... operation got you last...
another thing in the fallout series is if I remember my fallout lore... we are talking ~100-200 years after the bombardment
1 I believe the nuclear attacks did use a combination of low airbursts, and more or less ground detonations in order to cause maximum damage.

for the sake of argument low airbursts would be ones where the detonation is just high enough that the fireball scrapes the ground, to clarify ~10% of the blast radius is on/into the ground
so less https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... g&usqp=CAU

and more http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/wp-conte ... quence.jpg
if the middle drawing blue circle was the fireball.
next you add all the nuclear powered stuff.... "dirty bombs"
and add in a bunch of salted or enhanced radiation bombs, IE instead of making the bomb as "clean as possible", think neutron bombs designed to essentially have a major flash of heat/radiation that kills stuff quick, but has little to no long term radiation their bombs left behind a lot of stuff with a 100-1000 ish year half-life
or even strontium-90 which has a half-life of ~30 years (29 years but shrug) plus if there is enough you have to understand how half lifes work which is lets say you start out with 1000 units and a half life of 30 years ... after 30 years you will have ~500 units, after 60 years you will have ~250 units left, etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium has largely avoided issues of radiation that aren't comic book "radiation makes mutants" stuff. i think the only rules we have for more typical radiation exposure are some of the side effects of nuclear superpowers in HU2. (SB4 has some stuff for the radiation pulse of a nuke but that is very much the extreme end of the scale..)

There might also be some rules in the PFRPG adventure with the radioactive space dragon.
Might have been in Adventures in the Northern Wilds

[Captain_Nibbz]

Palladium has largely avoided issues of radiation that aren't comic book "radiation makes mutants" stuff. i think the only rules we have for more typical radiation exposure are some of the side effects of nuclear superpowers in HU2. (SB4 has some stuff for the radiation pulse of a nuke but that is very much the extreme end of the scale..)

There might also be some rules in the PFRPG adventure with the radioactive space dragon.
Might have been in Adventures in the Northern Wilds

Found this:

As their eyes adjust to the dim light, the party will be shocked to discover that the area around the clearing is littered with the bodies of dozens of human beings! Several lay still and corpse-like, others still live, clutching at the air or writhing from time to time. Men, women, and children, many of them near death, lay drenched in sweat, gibbering at empty air and covering their eyes from lights which do not shine. Their skin is blistered and charred, and most of them have clearly been injured by crude swords and spears. A few are blind.

[snip]

A rare sight it is, to see faeries come to the aid of humans with such vigor! It is almost as if a bond of some kind exists between the two groups. Party members who have encountered such creatures before, however, will notice that the faeries themselves are no longer lustrous and spritely. Once beautiful, autumnal wings are now frayed and mottled. Some of them stagger, wiping their brows. Few, if any, are taking to the air. The faeries are sick and dying too!

[snip]

Player Characters may attempt to use special abilities to heal the fallen pilgrims. The disease is the result of a type of radiation poisoning, and, while easing some of their pain and symptoms, neither healing potions nor a priest's healing touch will cure them. The stricken do not radiate magic, and remove curse or mystic incantations will not work either. Only a full Restoration spell can possibly banish this malady from an individual.

Also this:

Radiation: Ceratus Dominus is radioactive, and all living things are endangered by his presence. Player Characters who choose to grapple in combat with this dragon must be reminded that they are taking a big risk in catching "the aster fall illness."

For each time that a hero comes within 3 feet of the dragon, he must make a Saving Roll of 12 or higher on a 20-sided die to save vs poison. Failure meaning that combat damage will be taken straight from hit points, and that he will die of the sickness within 2D6 years unless immediately cured by Klisfurnim's herbs, cultures, and greenwood faerie enchantments.

Each time a hero's skin touches the scales of the dragon he must make a Save of 14 or higher on a D20. Failure meaning that he has 1D4 months to live — and, perhaps, find an alternate cure — unless treated by the faeries.

And each time a hero is struck by Ceratus' breath weapon (aside from dealing with the normal damage listed previously) he must make a Save of 16 or higher on a D20. Failure meaning that he has 1D4 days to live unless cured by the faeries potions only. Such powerful enchantments as Klisfurnim's Shield or those of Morningstar's Wing Tips will protect the shielded character against the dragon's unusual flame.

Game Masters should note that Klisfurnim's Cure (detailed in Honorable Partings, as follows) is not a sure thing, and that a direct strike at full damage from Ceratus' flame contains a dose so lethal that anything, even the faerie cure, will do nothing but slow its effects. Only a restoration spell can completely heal the victim of the radiation breath. Without restoration, the person will get cancer within 4D4 years and die 2D6 years later.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And you didn't Name the book you found it in. Book four ...yeah right uh huh...what is the NAME? There are no numbers on the spin of the books.

[Captain_Nibbz]

And you didn't Name the book you found it in. Book four ...yeah right uh huh...what is the NAME? There are no numbers on the spin of the books.

PFRPG: Adventures in the Northern Wilderness.

Edit: It was just Adventures, not Further Adventures.

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium has largely avoided issues of radiation that aren't comic book "radiation makes mutants" stuff. i think the only rules we have for more typical radiation exposure are some of the side effects of nuclear superpowers in HU2. (SB4 has some stuff for the radiation pulse of a nuke but that is very much the extreme end of the scale..)

There might also be some rules in the PFRPG adventure with the radioactive space dragon.
Might have been in Adventures in the Northern Wilds

Found this:

As their eyes adjust to the dim light, the party will be shocked to discover that the area around the clearing is littered with the bodies of dozens of human beings! Several lay still and corpse-like, others still live, clutching at the air or writhing from time to time. Men, women, and children, many of them near death, lay drenched in sweat, gibbering at empty air and covering their eyes from lights which do not shine. Their skin is blistered and charred, and most of them have clearly been injured by crude swords and spears. A few are blind.

[snip]

A rare sight it is, to see faeries come to the aid of humans with such vigor! It is almost as if a bond of some kind exists between the two groups. Party members who have encountered such creatures before, however, will notice that the faeries themselves are no longer lustrous and spritely. Once beautiful, autumnal wings are now frayed and mottled. Some of them stagger, wiping their brows. Few, if any, are taking to the air. The faeries are sick and dying too!

[snip]

Player Characters may attempt to use special abilities to heal the fallen pilgrims. The disease is the result of a type of radiation poisoning, and, while easing some of their pain and symptoms, neither healing potions nor a priest's healing touch will cure them. The stricken do not radiate magic, and remove curse or mystic incantations will not work either. Only a full Restoration spell can possibly banish this malady from an individual.

Also this:

Radiation: Ceratus Dominus is radioactive, and all living things are endangered by his presence. Player Characters who choose to grapple in combat with this dragon must be reminded that they are taking a big risk in catching "the aster fall illness."

For each time that a hero comes within 3 feet of the dragon, he must make a Saving Roll of 12 or higher on a 20-sided die to save vs poison. Failure meaning that combat damage will be taken straight from hit points, and that he will die of the sickness within 2D6 years unless immediately cured by Klisfurnim's herbs, cultures, and greenwood faerie enchantments.

Each time a hero's skin touches the scales of the dragon he must make a Save of 14 or higher on a D20. Failure meaning that he has 1D4 months to live — and, perhaps, find an alternate cure — unless treated by the faeries.

And each time a hero is struck by Ceratus' breath weapon (aside from dealing with the normal damage listed previously) he must make a Save of 16 or higher on a D20. Failure meaning that he has 1D4 days to live unless cured by the faeries potions only. Such powerful enchantments as Klisfurnim's Shield or those of Morningstar's Wing Tips will protect the shielded character against the dragon's unusual flame.

Game Masters should note that Klisfurnim's Cure (detailed in Honorable Partings, as follows) is not a sure thing, and that a direct strike at full damage from Ceratus' flame contains a dose so lethal that anything, even the faerie cure, will do nothing but slow its effects. Only a restoration spell can completely heal the victim of the radiation breath. Without restoration, the person will get cancer within 4D4 years and die 2D6 years later.

Exactly what I was thinking of!
Good work.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And you didn't Name the book you found it in. Book four ...yeah right uh huh...what is the NAME? There are no numbers on the spin of the books.

PFRPG: Adventures in the Northern Wilderness.

Edit: It was just Adventures, not Further Adventures.

*nods* I do keep my PF 1st ed books in a different place as the 2nd ed ones.

--------
Since we are quoting from other PB games...

the alien radiates low levels of radiation that will begin to harm humans exposed to him for more than a few weeks. If the alien does not wear a radiation shielded survival suit (see equipment section), those around him will contract radiation poisoning on a result of 1-30%; roll once per each week of exposure.
Note: The symptoms and effects of radiation poisoning are given under the Control Radiation major super ability.

As in the quoted section, another place to look is the Control Radiation major super power in the core book.

[Mack]

This is only tangentially related, but on p32 of the Merc Adventures sourcebook is the Tin-Soldier OCC (a HAZMAT Specialist). It doesn't have any rules, but does have the "Bio-Hazard Special Training" skill.

[The Beast]

HU2 (or original VU if you prefer) has the Control Radiation superpower. I recall that beings with that power have reduced APR because if they're trying to maintain control of their power and not cause anyone near them radiation sickness.

[kaid]

I believe this is covered a bit in the sovietski book a bit or maybe warlords of russia. A lot of the nuclear reactors though in rifts seem to be fusion not fission so bad short term but with much shorter half life if breached so by the current time line most of the wrecked ones from the fall of the old world likely are well beyond any major threat range.

You could use the rules for the DU rounds from triax and the NGR which covers some radiation rules and exposure to radiation.

There definitely are areas of rifts that are heavily radiated like some of the desert area near utah where those radioactive waste wanders are and parts of russia like the moscow crater where there clearly were some nuclear exchanges with high radiation missiles. But in general given that this is called out as more of a rarity than a constant worry it makes me suspect as I mentioned most of the reactors were fusion not fission so much less likely for large scale radiation areas outside those what were hit by city buster type nukes.

[glitterboy2098]

"fusion vs fission" is an issue that has had several threads about it. to sum up, evidence exists for both, sometimes even within the same books (or even the same *chapter* in a few cases). because kevin S. doesn't apparently know anything about nuclear stuff, and the various freelancers all handle them differently.
originally it seems that they were all meant to be Fission (including references to nuclear powerplants in mecha and such being used as a source of plutonium for atomic bombs, etc) but then you started getting references to fusion. sometimes with the exact same flavor text as the fission versions due to copy-paste (like breached powerplants spreading radioactive fuel across the battlefield)

edit: my own preference is that most are Fission using a sort of "super RTG" approach, but some of the higher end stuff from the post-SoT/minion war period are using Fusion, as are many of the 'nuclear' things from phase world and such. basically taking the switch in references to mean that the tech has advanced some.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The thing about laser induced fusion explosions is that they are "clean" nuclear weapons. As in there is no contaminating ions that are spewed out with the explosion. Why is this you might ask. Because there is no fission metals or fission metal degregates (atom parts) to be spewed out.

[Killer Cyborg]

"fusion vs fission" is an issue that has had several threads about it. to sum up, evidence exists for both, sometimes even within the same books (or even the same *chapter* in a few cases).

Neither one fit what we see, really.
So obviously this is a third kind, something that modern science isn't even aware of yet.

[guardiandashi]

The thing about laser induced fission explosions is that they are "clean" nuclear weapons. As in there is no contaminating ions that are spewed out with the explosion. Why is this you might ask. Because there is no fission metals or fission metal degregates (atom parts) to be spewed out.

umm no thats not how it works.

fission ALWAYS produces radioactive byproducts, the only question is how much. why? because fission is taking stuff like uranium or plutonium and cracking some neutrons off it, or breaking the atoms down a bit and they turn into radioactive isotopes, until the material decays (through many half-lifes) until the radioactive material is gone.

drewkitty I believe you were thinking of laser induced FUSION explosions. which is something we can't feasibly make currently. what we CAN and have made, is fission-fusion bombs which are relatively clean nuclear weapons especially considering the relative size they are. the way those devices work in general, is you have a relatively small fission bomb, that acts as the trigger for a significantly larger fusion explosion

[Hotrod]

The thing about laser induced fission explosions is that they are "clean" nuclear weapons. As in there is no contaminating ions that are spewed out with the explosion. Why is this you might ask. Because there is no fission metals or fission metal degregates (atom parts) to be spewed out.

umm no thats not how it works.

fission ALWAYS produces radioactive byproducts, the only question is how much. why? because fission is taking stuff like uranium or plutonium and cracking some neutrons off it, or breaking the atoms down a bit and they turn into radioactive isotopes, until the material decays (through many half-lifes) until the radioactive material is gone.

Drukitty I believe you were thinking of laser induced FUSION explosions. which is something we can't feasibly make currently. what we CAN and have made, is fission-fusion bombs which are relatively clean nuclear weapons especially considering the relative size they are. the way those devices work in general, is you have a relatively small fission bomb, that acts as the trigger for a significantly larger fusion explosion

We actually can make laser-induced fusion. We just can't do so very efficiently.

Nuclear power sources in Rifts can't be fusion or fission reactors. Both of them create both high-energy gamma rays and high-energy neutrons that require a lot of shielding. Those neutrons tend to transmute materials and make them radioactive.

There are other reasons, too. Fusion requires a lot of input energy to allow the fusion fuel to overcome the Coulomb barrier (like a fission explosion in a hydrogen bomb). Fission requires a critical mass of fissile material. While you can use some tricks to reduce the critical mass required to a certain extent, there's only so far you can go with that.

Whatever the nuclear power sources are in Rifts, they're something different. They're not fission, and they're not fusion, at least not in the sense that either concept exists and gets used today. There are some concepts that might overcome one of these issues, such as aneutronic fusion, which reduces or eliminates high-energy neutron radiation, but these concepts do so at the cost of introducing new issues. In the case of aneutronic fusion, it requires more input energy.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Gee wow...one typo..

Thou I think you should fix the one you made too.

[guardiandashi]

Gee wow...one typo..

Thou I think you should fix the one you made too.

apologies, I kind of get heated personally about the difference between fission and fusion.

that was a typo that completely changes the meaning in the statement.

The thing about laser induced fission explosions is that they are "clean" nuclear weapons. As in there is no contaminating ions that are spewed out with the explosion. Why is this you might ask. Because there is no fission metals or fission metal degregates (atom parts) to be spewed out.

umm no thats not how it works.

fission ALWAYS produces radioactive byproducts, the only question is how much. why? because fission is taking stuff like uranium or plutonium and cracking some neutrons off it, or breaking the atoms down a bit and they turn into radioactive isotopes, until the material decays (through many half-lifes) until the radioactive material is gone.

Drukitty I believe you were thinking of laser induced FUSION explosions. which is something we can't feasibly make currently. what we CAN and have made, is fission-fusion bombs which are relatively clean nuclear weapons especially considering the relative size they are. the way those devices work in general, is you have a relatively small fission bomb, that acts as the trigger for a significantly larger fusion explosion

We actually can make laser-induced fusion. We just can't do so very efficiently.

Nuclear power sources in Rifts can't be fusion or fission reactors. Both of them create both high-energy gamma rays and high-energy neutrons that require a lot of shielding. Those neutrons tend to transmute materials and make them radioactive.

There are other reasons, too. Fusion requires a lot of input energy to allow the fusion fuel to overcome the Coulomb barrier (like a fission explosion in a hydrogen bomb). Fission requires a critical mass of fissile material. While you can use some tricks to reduce the critical mass required to a certain extent, there's only so far you can go with that.

Whatever the nuclear power sources are in Rifts, they're something different. They're not fission, and they're not fusion, at least not in the sense that either concept exists and gets used today. There are some concepts that might overcome one of these issues, such as aneutronic fusion, which reduces or eliminates high-energy neutron radiation, but these concepts do so at the cost of introducing new issues. In the case of aneutronic fusion, it requires more input energy.

based on the vast majority of the descriptions I personally suspect that most of the reactors in rifts would really fall into 2 categories, and or a hybrid of them.

personally I read most of the reactors as being some advanced RTG "Radio Thermal Generator" I think that's the right term, basically a powerplant that uses a quantity of radioactive material to generate heat that then generates power. essentially a nuclear battery more or less.

another possibility is that they are some form of forced subcritical fission reactor. this is a fission reactor that takes a quantity of radioactive fuel such as plutonium that is too small to reach critical mass that is then through pressure and or similar means is forced into a reactive or semi critical state.

the one part that is the real science fiction aspect is they seem to get way too much energy way too fast out of these power plants, which means that they are likely somehow skipping a big portion of the thermal generation cycle.

one possibility is that they are somehow using the reaction to generate plasma, and then running said plasma through a miniature tokamak style generation loop where the movement of the plasma functions (sort of) as the rotating assembly in an electric generator.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I will point out that there is is difference in concept between what are called 'nuclear batteries' (betavoltics) and 'Radio Thermal Generators'.

Betavoltics: the electrons are given off from the nuclear material as it decays. And it is these decay electrons that are what powers the 'nuclear battery'. However, betavoltics are better for very small installations (battery sized) then for power stations built for a power grid. This because when they are scaled up from thievery small their radioactive footprint scales up to dangerous levels.
(Fuel gives of electrons--> which is electricity)(direct current)

Radio Thermal Generators are more an advanced for of the typical nuclear power plant. Where the nuclear material produces heat, that is then turned into electricity. i.e. just like how coal or nat. gas power plants make electricity. Just using a different fuel.
(burn fuel--->heat water to boil---> steam spins generator---.generator makes electricity.)(alternating current)

Why I know this:
I was doing research for my Galaxy Unlimited article (submitted but never published) for different types of power sources.

Examples in media
There is a talk and some physical demos about actualizing fusion reactors in the anime 'Irregular at magic high school' season 1 ep 24. (note that basic ideas of the show in ep 1 to put the talk into background context of the dialog.)

There is a Radio Thermal Generator used in the Movie "the martian' staring Matt Damion.

[slade the sniper]

Checking through some things I found:
In RDF Manual pg 40:
water is radioactive; dangerous, causes nausea for 1D4 days if drunk, but not lethal.

and

Radioactive Dust Cloud; If unprotected: Dangerous levels of radiation will cause 2D6 weeks of nausea and headaches (-1 to strike, parry and dodge), nosebleeds, and severe eye irritation. Visibility is reduced to six feet (1.8m).
If protected in mecha or vehicles, radiation levels will send the dosimeter into the danger zone and temporarily foul radar, sensors and communication, while in the cloud, and for 1D4 hours after it has passed. Visibility is reduced to 30ft (9.1m). The cloud will last 1D4 hours before it blows by.

I'll keep looking and update as I do.

Ok, checked through my entire library and got nothing else. Sorry.

-STS

[Hotrod]

There is a Radio Thermal Generator used in the Movie "the martian' staring Matt Damion.

That's one of the rare moments in both the book and the movie where Andy Weir got the science flat-out wrong. He describes the function of an RTG well, but he blows the risk of using one way out of proportion. From what I've heard, he was trying to dial up the drama in the story by doing so, but having seen nuclear technology as a boogieman in so many stories, it's irksome that it got done dirty in a hard science fiction story that mostly gets the science right.

Spoiler:

The ARES crew buries the RTG. There is zero safety benefit from doing so. In fact, doing so actually creates more problems. RTGs produce heat. Those radiating vanes on them need to be able to radiate. Burying it in soil would build up the temperature of the RTG, because soil isn't a very good thermal conductor. Depending on the thermal conductivity of the soil, the RTG might melt the surrounding soil and/or itself. Burying the RTG is also a wasteful move, because they could use the RTG both for electricity and for staying warm, just as Watney does; the radiological risk of doing this is essentially zero.

Plutonium-238 (the radioactive isotope in RTGs) only emits alpha radiation, and the oxide pellets in an RTG absorb their own alpha radiation. All that comes out of them is heat, and even if you cracked one open, there would be no radiation hazard unless you took a plasma torch to it, ground it up, and ate it. It would take a lot of work to do so, because RTGs are designed to survive an unsuccessful interplanetary launch without getting pulverized. Watney acts like this thing is some kind of dirty bomb waiting to kill him.

[Borast]

>snip<That's one of the rare moments in both the book and the movie where Andy Weir got the science flat-out wrong.>snip<

Um, *rare*?
The gent failed big time where science is concerned!
The dust storm they encountered is exponentially more powerful than the strongest storm the planet has seen. A 200 MILE per hour wind on Mars is like a 40 mile an hour wind on Earth. Remember, the Martian atmosphere is 1% as thick as Earth's.

That all being said... I enjoyed the film when I saw it.

[Hotrod]

>snip<That's one of the rare moments in both the book and the movie where Andy Weir got the science flat-out wrong.>snip<

Um, *rare*?
The gent failed big time where science is concerned!
The dust storm they encountered is exponentially more powerful than the strongest storm the planet has seen. A 200 MILE per hour wind on Mars is like a 40 mile an hour wind on Earth. Remember, the Martian atmosphere is 1% as thick as Earth's.

That all being said... I enjoyed the film when I saw it.

More like a 10 mph wind on Earth, but yes, you're right. That's the only other moment I know of where Weir got the science wrong, but since it was necessary for him to set up the premise, and since he has publicly acknowledged this as a deliberate deviation from reality, it didn't rankle me nearly as much as his gross misharacterization of RTGs and their safety.

The movie takes a few additional liberties (the "use my glove as a thruster like Iron Man" scene, for instance), but all in all, I quite enjoyed it, too. The book was even better.