Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

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GangreneTVP
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Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

I have a player that is considering running a Techno-Wizard character and the new TW in the Ultimate Edition seems kind of complex... parts, prototypes, drawing schematics, long hours of engineering with construction time formulas, Construction cost formulas, PPE Costs, mistakes, gem-spell matching, a laundry list of gems and parts, assistants, part salvage, spell chains(not that bad, but another thing), Bonuses and Penalties... and honestly that doesn't seem like half of it...

So he wants to make a device and what... we have to spend 1.5 hours, IRL, figuring out what this thing is, what spells are going to involved, parts, etc... Then in game hours of gathering said parts from various people if they are even able to be found, hours of planning it, hours of building it... after all that it might not even work?!? Then we'll have to build it a couple times to get the bugs out?

With all the hours of planning, hours of building, prototyping, then eventually getting what you wanted... I have a weapon that can shoot endlessly via PPE, no clip limit... These items must be worth a whole hoard of treasure given the rarity / complexity they must surely have and how coveted they must be by the people who make them! Then you top it all of by...

Pg. 131: "The Construction Cost of a TW device, plus the cost of labor, is the average price for purchasing such a magical item on the Black Market!"

Pg. 135: "Note that the Techno-Wizard cannot sell the item to the Black Market at the average retail price, but at about 25% to 35% of the retail price. Thus, a TW weapon that retails for 40,000 credits will only net the wizard 10,000 to 14,000 credits, making selling to the B lack Market a losing proposition. Then again, selling it oneself has its own problems (setting up shop, finding buyers, overhead, employee costs, etc.)."

How does a TW progress making bigger, better, and especially more costly inventions if he can't make bank on the work he's already done?

Something doesn't add up here. I'm assuming with all this complexity TWs would be quite rich being able to charge highly for something so difficult and rare to achieve. At least they could sell it and use the money to fund further TW masterpieces. Nope.

What Gives? Tedious doesn't quite sound boring enough for what I'm envisioning as the reality of this class...

Furthermore... I don't know how all that can be incorporated in a game when they actually have a mission and goals to accomplish along those lines. How can such a individual go around "questing", with a team of adventurers, and get anything accomplished? This just seems amazingly complex and unplayable.

Thoughts / Suggestions? It seems it was just WAY simpler in the old book. Has anyone made this work, made it fun, and blended it successfully in a campaign with other non-TW OCCs?
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The 7 calculate the construction time, equation should reed ...

DCT=(PPE cost. Cost ÷ 10) x Device level.
I mention this because the given example was......(to put it kindly) inadequate to represent the math involved.

Why would he be selling stuff to the market in general? Making magic items for self & group and custom magic items customers which will pay more than traders.

Note: TW chars are the ones that have chosen to ""go adventuring"" so they have less need to have a "base/shop". Even so they are more in need of a vehicale to carry the tools & supplies that he absolutely needs to make new magic items out of tech parts.
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Alt. Ideas: The Psi-Mechanice PCC in the BTS2 core book has a balance of costs for the character to make a new psionic device for themselves to use.

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The SA2 psi builder RCC has two things agents it...it is a RCC so limited to that one race and the mechanics are broken.

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I just posted a Psi-Crafter PCC I wrote up recently in the PF forum.
And then I also have a Psionic Hardware power cat., but this is even more detailed than the published TW rules.(the PMs are too limited to send the full text that way.)
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Orin J. »

the best rule to employ here is rule zero: "what the GM says, goes". if you don't want to deal with that crap, and you don't think his idea needs a lot of overhauling, just give him a cost in parts/gems, a timetable and then have him roll for how well he makes it (works fine if he passes, the worse he fails the more you take the nerfbat to it).

honestly the expanded rules in RUE were an atrocity and one of the things i'd most want to revamp if i could.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Here is the basic RPG rules as I learned them....

Rule 1: the gm is always right.
Rule 2: if the gm is wrong see rule #1.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

Thanks guys... after racking my brain I've decided to rewrite the TW OCC to something useful and generally beneficial to a player group. It will marry the original and new TW OCCs. The "advanced" rules will only be used for magnum opus style devices. Wanna make the most OP greater rune weapon style of TW device? That's going to be a challenge. Smaller items will be more aligned with the original rule set. I see the TW in my mind as a sort of MacGyver that can upgrade things relatively quickly, with aptitude, can easily make bank or barter, and is highly desired and beneficial to any group or town.

Think about it... Many villages are like ancient times with fuel and tech being sorely needed but highly likely in low supply. However, from the original book... "In the world of Rifts, psychic powers are comparatively common. Even an average person may have some degree of psychic power."

So you have this guy pass through your town and he can make your zippo which you have no butane for into something that 20-25% of the town can charge using ISP, minor psionics. Wow that's useful! Now we can make fire easy! Have free room and board! Hey can you do something with this plow? This guy is a rock star! This guy with some copper wire, a borrowed metal button and 1-2 gems from his handy pouch and people have something tremendously useful and a plentiful power source for! Hey get that weird kid to come over and charge my flashlight! That's more how I'm seeing it. Add in some machine ghost and telemechanics and it's gold.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I like the lighter idea.
In one of the examples I've written up for the Psi Crafter (soon to be posted) is a single use fire starter empowerment.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by guardiandashi »

My personal belief is that the palladium system goes out of its way to punish people who want to create and craft things, after all who would ever want to be like tony stark IE Ironman, when you can instead be the incredible hulk and be a big green rage monster
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Even those who built the toys serve.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I've found that the TW creation rules in RUE aren't that bad after using them a couple of times. They could stand to be written a little more concisely, perhaps, just because they come across as being more involved than they are. By running through a series of examples not only is much of the work done for building those items in game, should something need to be whipped up on the fly the procedure has become old hat.

That said, there are some advantages to be had in having an open-ended variety of ways to accomplish the same goal. With the example of a lighter, a TW could design it to utilize a ley line, absorb energy from a ley line to allow later activation, be usable by anyone, be a long-term flame that's simply extinguished when not in use, be an arc lighter instead of utilizing flame, light things at a distance, or any combination of these. Most of the above are still something a level 1 TW could make in a few hours.

One thing worth considering is how many items one wants a level 1 Techno Wizard to have created during their education before play starts. If they have studied a proven, working schematic and have built a copy of that design in the past, then when creating that same object without a schematic and using Total Recall a level 1 TW with no I.Q. bonus would have a Techno-Wizard Construction roll of 90%. Once they've gained a couple of levels, and are able to reduce a item's Device Level (which is a great time and cost saver on the large number of effects not dependent on caster level) the score goes sufficiently beyond 98% that prototyping new designs becomes viable.

As for the price of TW items and value of TW labor, it's worth noting just how many books describe Black Market items going for well above listed prices. A particularly mercenary Techno Wizard could always cater to market forces and price gouge for whatever can't be acquired by other means, as well. What's an endless canteen worth in the desert?
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by The Beast »

guardiandashi wrote:My personal belief is that the palladium system goes out of its way to punish people who want to create and craft things, after all who would ever want to be like tony stark IE Ironman, when you can instead be the incredible hulk and be a big green rage monster


Mine is that PB punishes players.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

IIRC, the RUE TW Creation rules are optional, for people who want or can use them.
I seem to recall Kev introducing them by basically saying, "I don't know why anybody would want rules covering the creation of TW devices, but for you weirdos out there, maybe this'll appease you."*

*not actual phrasing.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I just wish they would actually publish TW 'devices', a blending of both tech and magic in the same item as the description says it is, instead of just publishing magic items made out of tech parts. *said the OCD person as if a pet peeve*

Example real "Bending of both tech and magic": a rifle conversion to run off PPE would be a laser rifle (that still shoots lasers via it's mundane laser emitters) with a power converter that converts the PPE in the Clip/magazine into electrical power.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I just wish they would actually publish TW 'devices', a blending of both tech and magic in the same item as the description says it is, instead of just publishing magic items made out of tech parts. *said the OCD person as if a pet peeve*

Example real "Bending of both tech and magic": a rifle conversion to run off PPE would be a laser rifle (that still shoots lasers via it's mundane laser emitters) with a power converter that converts the PPE in the Clip/magazine into electrical power.


Yup.
The original Technowizards were cooler in that regard.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Mack »

As written, the TW (and the TW creation rules) make for a character that better suited to be "Q" than "James Bond." The requirements to build TW items (a workshop, tools, parts, gems, time, skills...) don't jive with a normal adventure party.

My recommended solution is to make the character a field representative for a larger, established, TW shop. His job is to field test new items, look for potential clients, and identify what the locals need that the shop could produce.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by kaid »

Mack wrote:As written, the TW (and the TW creation rules) make for a character that better suited to be "Q" than "James Bond." The requirements to build TW items (a workshop, tools, parts, gems, time, skills...) don't jive with a normal adventure party.

My recommended solution is to make the character a field representative for a larger, established, TW shop. His job is to field test new items, look for potential clients, and identify what the locals need that the shop could produce.


My TW have always used adventuring time as shiny stuff acquisition time. TW are packrats that like lots of random stuff for their gadgets and adventuring is a great way to get the shiny stuff. Crafting stuff is mostly for downtime when you are back at home base and not really so much out in the field. At low levels you are basically working just to get your nest egg so you can set up a workshop of your own to begin with later on adventuring subsidizes your experiments and lets you get access to all sorts of neat stuff from various parts of the world/dimensions to experiment with. Given how they work even something that is broken or non functional could still be useful for tw for conversion so they are expert junk pickers.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

Orin J. wrote:the best rule to employ here is rule zero: "what the GM says, goes". if you don't want to deal with that crap, and you don't think his idea needs a lot of overhauling, just give him a cost in parts/gems, a timetable and then have him roll for how well he makes it (works fine if he passes, the worse he fails the more you take the nerfbat to it).

honestly the expanded rules in RUE were an atrocity and one of the things i'd most want to revamp if i could.



That isn't Rule 0 (unless you're dealing with a Control Freak rather than a Game Master); Rule 0 is: Have Fun.
Just about every person I've met who plays TWs loves the technical side of the character; now, if you don't want to deal with some of the stuff in-game, fine, let the player work on it out-of-game. Maybe schedule a coffee-shop meeting to discuss how stuff will work, stream-line it a bit and then in-game handle some other things.
Hell as a player, I like helping the TW come up with whatever the TW needs to make their gadgets. Some of it can spur a few adventures itself. Meet underworld contacts, plan capers, the works; sometimes stuff goes awry. Sometimes people might hire the TW to design a security system maybe, then pay the other characters to break in so it can be perfected.
The point is, involve the other PCs in everything and it won't bore them, either. A lot of the problem people have with the TW is laziness
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Here is the basic RPG rules as I learned them....

Rule 1: the gm is always right.
Rule 2: if the gm is wrong see rule #1.



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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Unless you go to have an argument instead of playing (*insert a MPFC skit here*), letting the GM have his way will let you have your fun.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by narcissus »

I haven't played or GMed for a TW, but one of my players keeps telling me that one day he'll run a campaign, and when that day comes...

I will play a TW with a shop in a truck that has Sustain and Time Hole on it. I'll adventure during the day, and every night for 8 hours while everyone's sleeping I'll go into my shop for 48 hours, sleep/meditate for 4 of those 48 hours, and build my inventions for the other 44 hours. Who says you can't adventure as a TW?!

I also created a spreadsheet to do the calculations outlined in RUE and it makes spec'ing out TW items a breeze.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by ITWastrel »

If you're making the JATWL-2900* rifle and attempting to make a profit, you're doing it wrong.

Everybody and their brother is cranking out lasers, Stormspire is buying gemstones by the ton to crank them out. Your top-shelf home build laser with dynamic sights has a lot of competition. Nobody cares how much you spent to make it, the only thing that matters is that lucky Eddie down the block has 20 of them in the window with a 50% off sign.

Now, if you were making TW Water Pipes in the southwest, allowing magical creation of water where it's most desperately needed, you'll find a market willing to pay what you want.

Also, build something not everyone has. TW fire sword, lame. TW Lightblade gauntlets with kung-fu grip? Priceless.
Even if the device does something everyone else's does, if it's unique, you'll be able to command higher prices**. As an example, a TW TK pistol with 6 1d6MD shots, cheap and lame. A TW Belt Buckle gun with 6 shots, less lame. A TK handbag pistol that fires 6 shots at 1D6MD each, and is otherwise perfectly disguised as a handbag until the cops rip out the lining, there's your profit.



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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Unless you go to have an argument instead of playing (*insert a MPFC skit here*), letting the GM have his way will let you have your fun.



An RPG is supposed to be a cooperative get-together, with at least some compromise. I'd rather argue a point than get screwed over.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

narcissus wrote:I haven't played or GMed for a TW, but one of my players keeps telling me that one day he'll run a campaign, and when that day comes...

I will play a TW with a shop in a truck that has Sustain and Time Hole on it. I'll adventure during the day, and every night for 8 hours while everyone's sleeping I'll go into my shop for 48 hours, sleep/meditate for 4 of those 48 hours, and build my inventions for the other 44 hours. Who says you can't adventure as a TW?!

I also created a spreadsheet to do the calculations outlined in RUE and it makes spec'ing out TW items a breeze.
I too made a spreadsheet makes designing TW a breeze. My Temporal Wizard uses Time Hole in a very similar manner to make scrolls, talismans, research, learn spells, etc. while everyone else is sleeping. Excellent idea.
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Re: Techno-Wizards... any tips? HELP PLEASE!

Unread post by taalismn »

Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, the RUE TW Creation rules are optional, for people who want or can use them.
I seem to recall Kev introducing them by basically saying, "I don't know why anybody would want rules covering the creation of TW devices, but for you weirdos out there, maybe this'll appease you."*

*not actual phrasing.


Because some people wanna play 'blood, sweat, and genius' characters, but GMs want some hedge that the players just can't whip up 'Game Breaker Mark 1.0' right off the bat or leave the game because a GM doesn't let them create a magic flame-less lighter.

It's lie Alchemists in PFRPG....they're NPCs because otherwise they;d be whipping up potions and creating magic stuff that would potential destabilize the game if they were PCs. Later in Rifts you see more limited alchemist-style creation mages, with narrower focuses, like the Mystic Herballist(who is limited to what's already in the cookbooks, unless the GM lets them experiment with alien plants) and the Russian mystic blacksmiths.
And in Heroes Unlimited, super-power potions are dramatic devices; there's nota s specific character class that can create super-power-ups for others unless the GM , say, lets the in-group science geek with the Chemistry skills brew up Captain Aspirin's durability capsules.
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