Credits! What are they and how do they work?

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GangreneTVP
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Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

Are they a physical currency like paper and coins? Are they on some sort of card like a credit card needing a swipe transaction? Are they on a memory stick or device? Do credits use some other form of exchange not listed? Who creates credits and how are they universally accepted?
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Whew.
You should probably search through the forums for previous times this has come up.
From memory, in order:
1. They're credit cards, basically.
2. Yes.
3. They're cards.
4. Nope.
5. There was at least one source that mentioned the CS as the ones who make Universal Credits, which makes a lot of sense. They have the most stable economy, and it would help explain their dominance if they were the ones making cash everybody relied on; smaller kingdoms that use Universal Credits would have to figure something else out if the CS ever fell.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Mack »

Universal credits are something that's better if you don't think about them. They make as much sense as bottlecaps. Just remember that they're supposed to be in the background, not the foreground, of the story you're telling within this RPG.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Mack wrote:Universal credits are something that's better if you don't think about them. They make as much sense as bottlecaps. Just remember that they're supposed to be in the background, not the foreground, of the story you're telling within this RPG.

For the most part I agree with this but remember there will be places that will not accept credits, they like trade goods, so that can be a great complicating factor to through in.

I've used the example before but I had players along the East Coast and they stopped in a reasonably secure town to get some food and find a place to rest for a few days. Since the place had no use for credits the PCs used their equipment, hover vehicles and power armors, to dig a drainage ditch. For them an hours work, for the town it would have been weeks. They also dug up a few items that led to another adventure. Trade goods exist for a reason.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Orin J. »

Fiat currency and Fiat currency.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

GangreneTVP wrote:Are they a physical currency like paper and coins?
Are they on some sort of card like a credit card needing a swipe transaction?
Are they on a memory stick or device?
Do credits use some other form of exchange not listed?
Who creates credits and how are they universally accepted?


not really although in some places they could be for local transactions only
yes
potentially yes
not really
its never really spelled out who created and maintains the system. as long as universal credits are the standard currency in the are then they will be accepted.

the best way to think of it is an electronic version of whatever currency you normally use.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by ITWastrel »

Who creates credits and how are they universally accepted?


The HOW here is a good bit.

How are they universally accepted? Why would farmer hick in Cooterville, a D-Bee stronghold, accept your coalition universal credit for payment?

Farmer Hick knows the credit is based on the Coalition bank. Hate them or not, that bank is stable. The farmer can trade those stable credits with others who trust the bank, and in most cases it's easier to trust a coalition cred than some tiny bank in some nowhere kingdom where all the money is made of paper and has the king's window-licker son on the $10 bill. Will that bank be there in a year? Will they honor your accounts? Will the mercenaries even accept your rando pink $100 notes from "The Only Bank of Gary's Kingdom"?

We the players can automatically trust the greenback, the Euro, or the Pound. They're backed by hundreds of years of trust. Can you say that about the Central Bank of Zimbabwe? A few years ago they were using trillion dollar notes to cover the babysitter's tip, now they too use the American Dollar. The average citizen of Zimbabwe may never even see an American in their lifetime, but they know American money is solid.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Whew.
You should probably search through the forums for previous times this has come up.


Killer, thanks for the reply. You don't have to browse long to see that you are a key figure around here. Yeah, here's the deal. I'm slogging through hundreds of pages of rule books currently. After that I'm consumed by providing my upcoming play group with the best experience and an "authentic" one in the Rifts world... this authentic experience meaning one as true to the cannon as possible. To do otherwise would be a shame for a game of this magnitude. So, I'm working out all the mechanics / logistics of how we are going to do everything. On top of that I'm working full time and taking care of my family, etc. So please forgive me if I didn't take extra time to search through a forum and read through posts that may or may not give me the answers I'm looking for. I don't have much time to waste. I'm 100% consumed by importing as much Rifts world data into my brain ASAP. I figured why mess around when I have Rifts Best and Brightest(most read) right at my fingertips that could save me mounds of time by just answering some of my questions directly so I could continue my cram. ;-)

That being said I'm VERY thankful for each and everyone of you that took the time to chime in and answered my questions in a direct and timely manner.

I'm going to have some crafty players so... Honestly this is a KEY question as to how the world of Rifts functions. So, we have a key card. Well, I'm familiar with cards. So then these cards need a way to transfer the credits... maybe they both swipe a machine and the transfer is made... that data HAS to be stored on the card. So either the cards transfer directly or you need that machine. I guess they'd work more like, touch the cards to transfer funds avoiding some other device that everyone would need to have. That's important when you're in the wilderness doing a Merc mission for creds, for instance. That brings up a LOT of 2nd questions. What keeps me from just coming up to you and taking your card? Is each card tied to its user? If so, how are the CS states giving these cards to every DBee you might encounter? Did everyone in Tolkeen have a CS cred card? So, if key cards are tied to a user then the CS would have a huge registry of all the people in cities and towns scattered across the planet. This lends me to think that these cards are NOT tied to the user and are easily stolen by thieves. That would then be a common practice. Take a card, transfer the balance, and much easier than going on some suicidal mission for creds. That will definitely change the atmosphere of the tough streets of the burbs for example. Is that the correct answer? Are these cards easily stolen and their balance easily transferred?

The next big question is... If these cards store the data, which they must as I don't see a mechanism for these transfers to be transferred back to the CS in a central banking database. How are these cards kept from being hacked? It seems one skilled hacker could just change the balance on their card and the whole system would fall apart. I'll just hack a Billion Creds onto my card and... we're golden. I guess we'll just have to say that the cards aren't hackable or they have threat detection to self destruct, and lose your balance, if they detect manipulation which would surely reduce the urge to do so. These clearly will have to be smart computerized cards. It's the only way they'd work. A simple magnetic strip is out of the question. ;-)

Why would some multidimensional species / marketplace like the Splugorth use a CS currency? They must convert all transactions. Of course if the cred is a fiat currency it only has value if someone is willing to trade to me with those creds... Seems a big risk to the Splugorth to use it. They could also try to destabilize the CS by forcing the use of their currency instead...

I guess this brings us to the black market salable items each OCC gets. I have NOT read the black market book yet. It sounds to me now like these creds maybe are FAR FROM universal and many small tribes who never go to a CS city to purchase would have little value for creds. So, we have some sort barter system going on all around the world which trade in "Black Market Saleable Items"(BMSI). I'm thinking I should just assume that there is a common small item that is readily tradeable, bottlecaps, as a BMSI common exchange currency. Otherwise I really can't see a small band of adventurers having a huge haul for trading in such scenarios. I think I'm going to have to do something like that to make the BMSI trading system feasible. Then there is the issue of transferring BMSI to creds...

I had some more but this is a big enough wall of text for now. ;-)

Any corrections, complications, considerations, additions I need to take into account or we could discuss?
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mack wrote:Universal credits are something that's better if you don't think about them. They make as much sense as bottlecaps. Just remember that they're supposed to be in the background, not the foreground, of the story you're telling within this RPG.


"Bottlecaps" is a good analogy.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

GangreneTVP wrote: So, we have a key card. Well, I'm familiar with cards. So then these cards need a way to transfer the credits... maybe they both swipe a machine and the transfer is made... that data HAS to be stored on the card. So either the cards transfer directly or you need that machine. I guess they'd work more like, touch the cards to transfer funds avoiding some other device that everyone would need to have. That's important when you're in the wilderness doing a Merc mission for creds, for instance. That brings up a LOT of 2nd questions.


Yeah, basically they seem to be like unhackable pre-paid credit cards. You can spend off them hand them to each other, and so forth.
I've house-ruled that you can rub two different cards together to transfer funds from one card to another, for exactly the kind of exchange you're talking about.
Otherwise, you'd just have to hand your card to them.

What keeps me from just coming up to you and taking your card?


Absolutely nothing.

Is each card tied to its user?


Nope. They're all apparently anonymous.

Take a card, transfer the balance, and much easier than going on some suicidal mission for creds. That will definitely change the atmosphere of the tough streets of the burbs for example. Is that the correct answer? Are these cards easily stolen and their balance easily transferred?


Yes, BUT not everybody needs to carry all their credits on them.
One could leave millions of credits at home in a safe, and head into town with only a $20 credit card in your pocket, and another in your shoe in case muggers get the first one.

The next big question is... If these cards store the data, which they must as I don't see a mechanism for these transfers to be transferred back to the CS in a central banking database.[
How are these cards kept from being hacked?


By using technology that is SO advanced, it seems incomprehensible to our modern minds and understandings of the universe.
The tech of Rifts Earth is so advanced that it seems kinda stupid sometimes, in fact.
;)

It seems one skilled hacker could just change the balance on their card and the whole system would fall apart. I'll just hack a Billion Creds onto my card and... we're golden. I guess we'll just have to say that the cards aren't hackable or they have threat detection to self destruct, and lose your balance, if they detect manipulation which would surely reduce the urge to do so. These clearly will have to be smart computerized cards. It's the only way they'd work. A simple magnetic strip is out of the question. ;-)


We're left a pretty complete void of information on how Credits work, but if they were easy to hack--or even possible to hack--on significant levels, the Rifts economy would function as it is shown.
So we're left to fill in the gaps however we please, as long as it gets us to the end result we're shown.
People--including myself--have come up with all kinds of ways that SHOULD work to hack credits, and possible counter-measures. For example, if each credit card uses the brain of a flea or other tiny creature to store the data, that would be unhackable using conventional hacking skills and/or powers like telemechanics (if only because each card would then be a cyborg, and cyborgs are impervious to telemechanics).
It could get pretty complex to come up with a series of possible attacks and countermeasures, to the point where unless that's what one wants the campaign to focus on, it's best just ignoring it all and handwaving questions of hacking and such.

Why would some multidimensional species / marketplace like the Splugorth use a CS currency? They must convert all transactions. Of course if the cred is a fiat currency it only has value if someone is willing to trade to me with those creds... Seems a big risk to the Splugorth to use it. They could also try to destabilize the CS by forcing the use of their currency instead...


With the Naruni, they could spend their credits on Rifts Earth, acquiring trade goods that they can convert into local currency when they get home.
With Atlantis, it makes less sense, but I guess if one thought about it hard enough, they could figure out some sugar to make that medicine go down.

I guess this brings us to the black market salable items each OCC gets. I have NOT read the black market book yet. It sounds to me now like these creds maybe are FAR FROM universal and many small tribes who never go to a CS city to purchase would have little value for creds. So, we have some sort barter system going on all around the world which trade in "Black Market Saleable Items"(BMSI). I'm thinking I should just assume that there is a common small item that is readily tradeable, bottlecaps, as a BMSI common exchange currency. Otherwise I really can't see a small band of adventurers having a huge haul for trading in such scenarios. I think I'm going to have to do something like that to make the BMSI trading system feasible. Then there is the issue of transferring BMSI to creds...


Okay, so there's Universal Credits, and that's the main currency of Rifts North America (and arguably Rifts Earth, I supposed). The CS uses it, which means everybody in or near CS territory is going to use it.
But different kingdoms or businesses can have their own credit. You might get paid for a job in Wilk's Credits (I'm pretty certain this is canon), for example, which are only good for spending with Wilk's, or anybody who is interested in shopping there.
You might visit some kingdom outside CS territory that makes their own credits, or their own paper money, or their own currency, and so forth..
There should be a lot of variation, particularly the farther you get from CS territory.
"Black Market Items" are generally anything that sells on the black market that you don't want to keep track of, I think. A pre-Rifts beer can, a book, illegal porn, or anything else that would go for money in the Black Market. It kind of works like old D&D adventures where you'd find "a bag of mixed gems worth 100 GP" or whatever. You don't really need to know what kind of gems, or how many; it's just assumed you can trade them and get change back, as a rule.
The Black Market also has its own form of credits, I believe. No, I don't know how that'd work, but apparently it does.

I'll try to find some older conversations, and post you some links to browse.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Okay, it looks like RainOfSteel compiled a list of money/credit related threads a while back, located here:
viewtopic.php?p=906685#p906685

Also, I quoted this a few times, and will just repost it here:
Collected MOPs, p. 108
To my thinking, credits are monetary increments electronically monitored on "credit cards"... Other credit cards might work on a punch card system. Paper money of any kind is rarely used by any kingdoms.
The universal credit card is accepted at most places where civilization is found. If the individual businesses won't accept the credit card (and 98% will), a lending institution... will accept the credit card and convert credit into the local currency for a charge...
... The Coalition States and major kingdoms like Whykin, Lazlo, Northern Gun, El Paso, and Juarez will all accept universal credits, Coalition State credits, and one or two other credits (usually with kingdoms they have trade with).


Here's how I envision a lot of basic trades going for people well outside CS territory:
viewtopic.php?p=3073668#p3073668
“We don’t have an inn, but you can stay at my place, if you want. I got a cabin a bit to the north. It’s that or the stables, and I’ve got better food.”
She had no idea why she offered, except there was something absolutely exciting about this unknown war-machine of a person. She instantly regretted it. Strangers were dangerous; she could be killed, raped, tortured, or worse. Sometimes really, really bad stuff happened to folks.
The stranger simply nodded.
“You take credits?” they asked.
Credits? Who the **** uses credits?
“Uh, no.” Pitcher said. “But we can work something out. It’s all barter around these parts.”
The stranger looked at her, and said nothing. Pitcher felt incredibly awkward and self-aware.
“I make and trade pitch,” she said. Then helpfully added, “That’s why they call me Pitcher.”
The stranger nodded, then reached into a saddlebag and pulled out a shiny red gem the size of a healthy walnut still in the husk.
Pitcher took it, inspected it. She had no idea what it was. It seemed too light to be a real gemstone, but too faceted and beautiful to be anything else. It sure wasn’t made of polished resin, not any kind Pitcher’d ever seen, anyway.
“Thank you, yeah, this’ll work,” she said. “Uh… what IS it?”
The stranger gave a low, electric chuckle.
“It’s the eyestone of a night-laugher,” the stranger said. “I killed some out west.”
Pitcher had no idea what a night-laugher was. How far had this stranger traveled?
“What do you do with it?”
The stranger shrugged. “They’re just pretty, I suppose. People trade them, cut them like gems, that kind of thing. I may need to stay here for a while. Will this buy me a week or more?”
“Uh… sure.” Pitcher was sure she was being severely overpaid. She didn’t know how common these were out west, but she’d never seen or heard of one. On beauty alone, though, she knew it’d be worth a bundle in trade. “Yeah, that works.”


Also, there's this:
viewtopic.php?p=2928353#p2928353
The currency of the modern, civilized world of Rifts Earth is "credits" -- electronic money kept and accounted for by a sophisticated, computerized banking system. Credits can be wire transferred at most CS cities, towns, burbs and outposts, or encoded on "debit cards," small sturdy, plastic cards very similar to pre-Rifts credit cards or telephone cards. Each time the "debit" card is used, the appropriate amount of credits is deducted from the card. When all the credits are used up, the card can be thrown away or saved and taken to an appropriate banking institution, money lender, or merchant to have credits in a savings account transferred onto the card for future use. Similarly, many businesses, banks, money lenders and even the Black Market and some travelling merchants can place additional credits into the card by transferring real and existing funds from their account into the card. This can be done as a loan, to make payments to an employee, to pay a bounty, and commonly when the bank, business or merchant purchases goods (gold, silver, furs, guns, magic items, ancient artifacts, etc.).

The government of the Coalition States (representing 73% of all trade on the continent) is the one responsible for creating this system of money exchange and accounting. It prevents counterfeiting and enables the government (who controls the banking) to monitor the flow of money and commerce. For this reason, the Black Market, arms dealers, smugglers and many operating in the sale and purchase of illegal goods and services prefer to "trade" goods for goods rather than issue "credits" as an effective way to pay and trade people "under the table."

"Universal Credits" are the most common and popular form of credits instituted by the Coalition States. Universals credits are good with all merchants, businesses and banks throughout the Coalition States, as well as in the New German Republic and many independent kingdoms, nations and businesses including Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Wellington Industries, Wilk’s, Iron Heart Armaments, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, Free Quebec, Whykin, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and most Midwest and eastern communities, including the Black Market (although front companies and cover identities are necessary for the latter). Most mercenaries, adventurers, bandits and people of North America will accept Universal Credits as a viable currency! Universal Credits is the main currency of North America.

Since the Coalition States are strong and stable, there islittle danger of the credits becoming devalued or of the banks going out of business. Furthermore, because the system is based on "redeemable" Universal Credits typically available to the "bearer" of the card, it is safe to put thousands, even millions of credits on one or more cards and use the money/credits freely, just about anywhere, without question. In this regard, the CS is unbelievably tolerant in its dealings with questionable businesses. For this system of banking and money exchange to collapse, the Coalition States would have to completely change its banking and monetary system (a monumental and disruptive task), or be destroyed. Ironically, this creates a subtle and bizarre interdependence and symbiotic relationship with both the supporters and enemies of the States!

"Marked" or "Personalized" debit cards in which the funds are available only to one or two specific individuals can also be issued, but each transaction with that card will be recorded, identifying the user, what he or she purchased, and where, giving the Coalition watchdogs potentially incriminating information.

Some independent nations, kingdoms, organizations (like the Black Market) and businesses with numerous outlets throughout the land issue their own form of "credits" on debit cards via an independent banking institution. Individuals who despise the Coalition may elect to use these instead of the CS Universal Credits. Likewise, citizens and supporters of that community or institution may also prefer to use their own credit system, however there are problems with this. First, the security of the credits is based entirely on the stability of the kingdom or organization that issued them. Obviously, such places are much more unstable and vulnerable to disaster than the CS. Second, since the CS will not recognize most other nations and never accepts foreign credits, these money cards have an extremely limited value. In many cases these independent debit cards are only accepted in the kingdom that issued them and worthless everywhere else (and another reason the CS Universal Credits are so popular).

Lazlo and New Lazlo, Tolkeen, and a handful of other independent kingdoms and cities have their own form of "credit" system, but only the joint efforts of Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium have managed to establish a banking and credits/debit system that is accepted and used at many locations throughout the country. Typically, any seller of Northern Gun (NG) and Imperium (MI) weapons and equipment (both using the same credits system and debit cards) will usually accept NGMI debit cards redeemable for credits that can be used at these Upper Michigan kingdoms and with all NG and MI "authorized" gun shops,merchants and traders, as well as most 'Burbs. Furthermore, a handful of other independent towns, cities, merchants and traveling shows use or accept NGMI cards, including Silvereno, Bandito Arms, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Kingsdale, Ciudad Juarez, and scattered towns in the Pecos Empire, Lone Star, New West and Magic Zone.

The third credits/debit system to rival the NGMI and challenge the CS Universal Credits is that of the Black Market. Their debit card is a simple, encoded black plastic card. It is good at virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world, including the Coalition States, and accepted by all official Black Market agents, operatives and freelancers, as well as by most Juicers, Crazies, Gunslingers, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries, spies, smugglers, bandits and criminals of all kind. Black Credits, as this illegal, underground system of banking and debit cards are known, is welcome at Coalition Burbs, most Body-Chop-Shops, the Pecos Empire, Bandito Arms, and many (not all) merchants and businesses at Tolkeen, New Lazlo, Whykin, Kingsdale, Free Quebec, Lone Star and scattered towns in the New West.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

Killer Cyborg,

Thanks, I read through all of that. 6 new rifts books arrived on my doorstep today... ;-) My new collection is starting to grow.

FYI, when I click all those links from that RainOfSteel post.... none of them appear to work for me. Do they work for you?

Thanks again...
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

GangreneTVP wrote:Killer Cyborg,

Thanks, I read through all of that. 6 new rifts books arrived on my doorstep today... ;-) My new collection is starting to grow.

FYI, when I click all those links from that RainOfSteel post.... none of them appear to work for me. Do they work for you?

Thanks again...


I didn't check them. They probably go to conversations that have been archived. :(
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

As per the RMB, the text says that the CS manages its Uni-credits without messing with transactions so they could have intelligence on the users. Which make it source like UC are like bitcoin, where every transaction is recorded and sent to a central processing hub.

However, I play that all Credits are on "Credit Cards" which have credit data on them which can be moved from card to card.
(Media Example: In the first few minute one of the Cowboy bebop open with credits being transferred from one card to another. It was one of the venus arc....the one that isn't 'mushroom samba'.)
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by GangreneTVP »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As per the RMB, the text says that the CS manages its Uni-credits without messing with transactions so they could have intelligence on the users. Which make it source like UC are like bitcoin, where every transaction is recorded and sent to a central processing hub.

However, I play that all Credits are on "Credit Cards" which have credit data on them which can be moved from card to card.
(Media Example: In the first few minute one of the Cowboy bebop open with credits being transferred from one card to another. It was one of the venus arc....the one that isn't 'mushroom samba'.)



Based on this... ""Marked" or "Personalized" debit cards in which the funds are available only to one or two specific individuals can also be issued, but each transaction with that card will be recorded, identifying the user, what he or she purchased, and where, giving the Coalition watchdogs potentially incriminating information." it sounds like only this kind of card records all the transactions... and I'm sure many of those transactions lie about items purchased.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by taalismn »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Whew.
You should probably search through the forums for previous times this has come up.
From memory, in order:
1. They're credit cards, basically.
2. Yes.
3. They're cards.
4. Nope.
5. There was at least one source that mentioned the CS as the ones who make Universal Credits, which makes a lot of sense. They have the most stable economy, and it would help explain their dominance if they were the ones making cash everybody relied on; smaller kingdoms that use Universal Credits would have to figure something else out if the CS ever fell.



And if there's any sort of electronic registration involved, you can bet that the CS has an intelligence department tracking peoples' financial activity via their credit usage, where they can.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

There are three kinds of magic in Palladium
1) Learned magic, like wizards and ley line walkers.
2) Granted magic, like warlocks and priests.
3) Credits.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Shamrock 'Slinger »

Not sure if anyone else here dabbles a bit with cryptocurrency like Bitcoin but I use it as model for the credit systems in Rifts North America. A digital currency can still be useful in the frontier if both parties in a transactions have the right equipment for it or, like how KC pointed it out, a want/need/use for it. That said, how it is depicted in WB 14 New West, SB Black Market, and wherever else seem to differentiate in some cases. I would also like to add, I've only thought this out so that in the case it is brought up to the table I can address it with reason and create a continuity.

I've had GMs think credits as chips or little bricks that Star Wars depicts, but I think a currency like that doesn't quite fit the description provided by the setting.

I use a mix of technologies to how characters carry credits of all types. The simplest type is the card that just declines with each purchase and can be refilled at banks. It's easy and does not require too much thought on how it works. Another I have is the digital wallet. With cryptocurrency today, one often stores the coins in digital wallets that you can carry with you on a phone app or even on a flashdrive. If a party is in a settlement that has internet/wifi, a transaction can be made that way, however, not all settlements in the wilderness may have it. Likewise with a travelling trader. It all depends on the level of technology one has. Without internet, a transaction can be made from either a card scanner or cables to transfer from a computer device. Since a party out in the wilderness won't have access to a bank over the internet like we do, their cards and digital wallets have to account for their funds on their own person. Digital wallets can fit onto tablets, computers, or even smart phones if a character has one. The credits would become digital algorithms to represent an amount and would change as they are added or withdrawn. Wallets are protected by a public password or key that is encrypted. To make things easy, these digital wallets hold a variety of credit types including Universal/Coalition, Black market, NG, etc.

In contrast to Bitcoin, Coalition credits are centralized and I can see them heavily coded for transactions and owner stamps. If I was going to run an espionage or detective game I would think more on the concept, but I may just leave it at that. The CS could probably trace from the blockchains formed with each transactions. That actually may deter hacking, at least in some cases. However, in the wilderness it would be hard to discover what algorithm for a certain amount of currency has already been used for credits.

It can lead to a lot of crunch in the game so I do try to make it as easy and thoughtless as possible for players. Giving options on how they can spend or collect credits I think would be helpful in some cases.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:Not sure if anyone else here dabbles a bit with cryptocurrency like Bitcoin but I use it as model for the credit systems in Rifts North America. A digital currency can still be useful in the frontier if both parties in a transactions have the right equipment for it or, like how KC pointed it out, a want/need/use for it. That said, how it is depicted in WB 14 New West, SB Black Market, and wherever else seem to differentiate in some cases. I would also like to add, I've only thought this out so that in the case it is brought up to the table I can address it with reason and create a continuity.

I've had GMs think credits as chips or little bricks that Star Wars depicts, but I think a currency like that doesn't quite fit the description provided by the setting.

I use a mix of technologies to how characters carry credits of all types. The simplest type is the card that just declines with each purchase and can be refilled at banks. It's easy and does not require too much thought on how it works. Another I have is the digital wallet. With cryptocurrency today, one often stores the coins in digital wallets that you can carry with you on a phone app or even on a flashdrive. If a party is in a settlement that has internet/wifi, a transaction can be made that way, however, not all settlements in the wilderness may have it. Likewise with a travelling trader. It all depends on the level of technology one has. Without internet, a transaction can be made from either a card scanner or cables to transfer from a computer device. Since a party out in the wilderness won't have access to a bank over the internet like we do, their cards and digital wallets have to account for their funds on their own person. Digital wallets can fit onto tablets, computers, or even smart phones if a character has one. The credits would become digital algorithms to represent an amount and would change as they are added or withdrawn. Wallets are protected by a public password or key that is encrypted. To make things easy, these digital wallets hold a variety of credit types including Universal/Coalition, Black market, NG, etc.

In contrast to Bitcoin, Coalition credits are centralized and I can see them heavily coded for transactions and owner stamps. If I was going to run an espionage or detective game I would think more on the concept, but I may just leave it at that. The CS could probably trace from the blockchains formed with each transactions. That actually may deter hacking, at least in some cases. However, in the wilderness it would be hard to discover what algorithm for a certain amount of currency has already been used for credits.

It can lead to a lot of crunch in the game so I do try to make it as easy and thoughtless as possible for players. Giving options on how they can spend or collect credits I think would be helpful in some cases.


to expand on my previous comment

GangreneTVP wrote:
Are they a physical currency like paper and coins?
Are they on some sort of card like a credit card needing a swipe transaction?
Are they on a memory stick or device?
Do credits use some other form of exchange not listed?
Who creates credits and how are they universally accepted?


not really although in some places they could be for local transactions only
yes
potentially yes
not really
its never really spelled out who created and maintains the system. as long as universal credits are the standard currency in the are then they will be accepted.

the best way to think of it is an electronic version of whatever currency you normally use.

in the physical currency example, I would see it as town (faction) uses physical currency, so you go to a bank/currency transfer station (think an ATM for the terminal) and you insert your cred device (card/stick) and withdraw say 500 cred (plus a service fee) and get 500 cr worth of local currency. when you are ready to leave and turn in the local currency you "deposit" the local currency, and get creds added to your card/stick minus the transaction fee.

in most cases I felt there are 2 kinds of cred devices, secure and unsecure "secure" devices are linked a specific person and require access to a "banking" network to process the transactions.
unsecure cred devices are effectively like a cross between currency and checks they would be available in "standard amounts" and or in "custom amounts" so in this example... you can get cred cards in say 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, etc. increments and you hand over said cards in
order to correspond to the agreed upon amount. or you go to an authorized terminal that puts a specified amount upon the "new card" that can be verified with some essentially secure method. say 2 million 529 creds and you "pay" by giving them the cred device.

as I see it there are numerous "sources of credits" but universal credits are the "gold standard" credits in north america they are pretty much always accepted but not always at a 1 for 1 rate and not always without a "conversion fee"
for instance the black market will always accept UC (universal credits) or BMC (Black Market Credits) but they are unlikely to accept "secure Credits" unless they have a way of Laundering them.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

as far as the "hacking the cards" go, there are a few things that would make such harder you can apply.
the first is Blockchain and similar crytopgraphic record systems. short version, not only is each section of code representating a distinct credit protected with its own unique encryption, with unique identifier buried in the code. it also has appended records of transactions.. card ID's, transfer machine ID's, network location ID's, how many times it has been moved, etc.
this allows the central bank systems to verify the authenticity of each credit in the system. it also lets the CS banks track all the transactions each credit goes through. (which lets them discover all sorts of illicit activity if you aren't using cards designed to disguise such things)

you can still hack these sorts of systems (as evidenced by some the recent issues with Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies) but it is pretty hard, and requires a fairly in depth knowledge of the software and cryptography involved. inside knowledge, basically.

away from the central banks (such as in one of the non-CS states) you'd either use a banking system that can move the discrete data-packets that make up each credit around from banking computers to cards or from cards to cards, or you'd just have multiple cards with set amounts of credits on them you can trade physically. this last one is likely how the most remote areas would accept credits if they take them at all. as mentioned, in most remote areas barter is the name of the game, and the credit is basically just a unit of value to use as a reference. (knowing that a given item is valued at 60 credits lets you figure out what would be a fair trade, so that you don;t under or over pay.. though obviously haggling would be a thing) this is why it is a good idea to use some of your starting credits during character creation to buy trade goods. knives, rope, nails, cloth, etc. or just some gold or silver coinage (a gold bullion coin like the larger Gold Eagle comes in 1/10oz, 1/4oz, 1/2oz, and 1oz sizes.. which at the 1000 credits an ounce gold is valued at in rifts, would work out to about 100 credits, 250 credits, 500 credits, and 1000 credits each. for most of the continent silver is about half that an ounce, so you could have a viable market for gold and silver coins, rings, or small bars of various weights being minted by many places for easy trade in remote areas or when leaving the continent. but which would get you weird looks or a visit from the city security forces if you used in more civilized areas)

generally in rural or wilderness areas the only people who would take credits would be adventurers and merchants.. people who travel often and are likely to visit somewhere that has a connection to a credits based banking system.


it is also worth noting that not all credits are the same.the Northern Gun books establish that NG has its own banking system derived from but separate from the CS one, and the NG credit actually has about 50% more buying power over a CS credit. the NGR has its own completely separate credits and banking system, which also has more buying power than the CS credits. in both cases you'd have to visit a bank or a diplomatic office to do a currency exchange, trading in your CS credits for whatever the equivalent value is in the local credits.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mark Hall wrote:There are three kinds of magic in Palladium
1) Learned magic, like wizards and ley line walkers.
2) Granted magic, like warlocks and priests.
3) Credits.

Not quite accurate (left out intuitive magic: mystics).
But those three are the three most potent magics. ;)
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

taalismn wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Whew.
You should probably search through the forums for previous times this has come up.
From memory, in order:
1. They're credit cards, basically.
2. Yes.
3. They're cards.
4. Nope.
5. There was at least one source that mentioned the CS as the ones who make Universal Credits, which makes a lot of sense. They have the most stable economy, and it would help explain their dominance if they were the ones making cash everybody relied on; smaller kingdoms that use Universal Credits would have to figure something else out if the CS ever fell.



And if there's any sort of electronic registration involved, you can bet that the CS has an intelligence department tracking peoples' financial activity via their credit usage, where they can.


Yeah, but I'm assuming that Universal Credits are all anonymous; I don't think they'd have taken off as thoroughly otherwise.
Then again, the book mentions "CS Credits," which could very likely have that kind of stuff.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As per the RMB, the text says that the CS manages its Uni-credits without messing with transactions so they could have intelligence on the users. Which make it source like UC are like bitcoin, where every transaction is recorded and sent to a central processing hub.


Huh.
What page?
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As per the RMB, the text says that the CS manages its Uni-credits without messing with transactions so they could have intelligence on the users. Which make it source like UC are like bitcoin, where every transaction is recorded and sent to a central processing hub.


Huh.
What page?

pretty sure it is where it talks about what UC are. I haven't really read most of the descriptive text in the RMB in ....errr... 25 years.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by kaid »

Mack wrote:Universal credits are something that's better if you don't think about them. They make as much sense as bottlecaps. Just remember that they're supposed to be in the background, not the foreground, of the story you're telling within this RPG.


They seem like a reasonable solution as described. Basically think of them as bitcoins on a physical stick/card. If you are in a bigger city you can use one that ties directly to a bank account and if you are out in the world you can use one that is basically preloaded with credits but can be stolen more easily.

Most big city states would need some kind of currency and given their golden age origins something like this is pretty reasonable. Even more belligerent nations like the CS have some reason to let these circulate outside their border and honor them because it keeps their credits valuable and valued which helps bolster their own economy.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by kaid »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
taalismn wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Whew.
You should probably search through the forums for previous times this has come up.
From memory, in order:
1. They're credit cards, basically.
2. Yes.
3. They're cards.
4. Nope.
5. There was at least one source that mentioned the CS as the ones who make Universal Credits, which makes a lot of sense. They have the most stable economy, and it would help explain their dominance if they were the ones making cash everybody relied on; smaller kingdoms that use Universal Credits would have to figure something else out if the CS ever fell.



And if there's any sort of electronic registration involved, you can bet that the CS has an intelligence department tracking peoples' financial activity via their credit usage, where they can.


Yeah, but I'm assuming that Universal Credits are all anonymous; I don't think they'd have taken off as thoroughly otherwise.
Then again, the book mentions "CS Credits," which could very likely have that kind of stuff.



It depends on what you are using for anononimity. I believe in one of the CS books maybe heroes of humanity it talks about some different versions. Some are more secured bank cards you need some kind of direct access to the bank network so likely only usable in actual cities with a bank branch and net access. Those work like debit cards they deduct from your bank account but are more secured and tied to your biometrics. Given these can only really work inside big cities some kind of portable card/chip is used that you can load up with currency like bitcoins but the downside being if somebody steals it they have your cash and you have little recourse. As with any money it is worth what people believe it is worth. CS/NG or Lazlo currency would be pretty reasonably valued because they are strong enough to be able to have some kind of stable economy to power them.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Borast »

There are no "Universal" credits...
"Universal" credits are only valid in areas where they are recognised.
North American UCs are useless in Japan, South America doesn't recognise them, and the TGR *may* recognise them, and exchange them at a discount, but only at special locations! Phase world...STEEP exchange rates, the rest of the 3 Galaxies...not a hope.
The same can be said for non-North American UCs in North America (particularly off-planet Credits).

The Coalition States are not the only Credit issuers in North America...the Black Market also issues Credits (and, canon statements are that they are, appropriately, black cards). However, the CS does not recognise them(?), where the BM *does* honour CS Credits, since they have other ways to exchange them! (Been a while since I read the Black Market book, so I can't remember if they charge an exchange rate.)

In any case, just because you have an appropriate Credits (I'd have to go spelunking the books - 3 shelves overfull - to see if the CS/BM/TGR/etc. have actual physical currency as well), does not mean you can use them. Not every area has appropriate tech to use them, and have either physical currency, or barter.

In any case, they require a reader, as the "value" traded has to be entered. It can be a dedicated reader/writer (think a debit card hand held terminal), or a computer with a reader.

In most of the 3 Galaxies, the "card" is likely an implanted nano-chip.
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by Elvendork »

I've been playing NA credits as black market currency , seems to be more universal, and since i've had the party travel to SA and Phase World and other places, I've had them keep track of the different credits and only had a few that were interchangable for instance , the party went to PW from SA via Megaversal Legion, and since the party was doing work for the Legion, they gave the party very generous exchange rates for the party's SA credits
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Re: Credits! What are they and how do they work?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Elvendork wrote:I've been playing NA credits as black market currency , seems to be more universal, and since i've had the party travel to SA and Phase World and other places, I've had them keep track of the different credits and only had a few that were interchangable for instance , the party went to PW from SA via Megaversal Legion, and since the party was doing work for the Legion, they gave the party very generous exchange rates for the party's SA credits


in a campaign I was in my character had this issue to an extreme level (having to track currency)
my character started out as a special forces character from rifts mercenaries, but became an interdimensional rift hopper in effect. (part of it was the gm having an uber powerful entity (GM fiat) having "fun" with my character and doing things like opening a rift so my character fell through, or was walking/running and all of a sudden rift opens in front, good luck dodging, and they were often one way, or closed behind the char/party. )

so as a short list of places my character ended up:
20th century earth.
robotech earth ~ the time the SDF-1 crashed (more than once, my character went through the macross saga at least 3 times)
Classic Battlestar Galactica at least once.
Star wars galaxy/universe repeatedly.
Battletech version of earth/the Inner Sphere.
Star trek universe... numerous times. Kirk era, TNG, DS9, etc. etc.
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various rifts settings/locations like the "new West", underseas, Japan, Atlantis (or at least ran into the splugorth, slavers, minions, and Kitini etc.)
several custom worlds/dimensions the GM made up including a "super earth" called Tulip world where the most evil thing around were the sentient Tulips (don't ever **** off the black ones) as all the Tulips had a pollen that was so charged with magic (PPE) that contact with it caused immediate and in some cases lingering Saving throws, and suffer "mutations" the main advantage of succeeding on the saving throws was you tended to roll on the Benevant tables vs the Malevolent tables.
and that's just what I remember off hand.
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