Species whose Practioners of Magic gain additional P.P.E.

[Curbludgeon]

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE THIS POST
I have yet to go through the Rifter, so if someone has done such in the past or sees something I've missed then please share. At a minimum I still need to add the Nexus-Born.

Notes:

Spoiler:

This list is organized for use in Rifts, although those entries from non-Rifts sources list the additional P.P.E. Practioners of Magic have in those settings. The CB1r entries that are not also listed under a PFRPG heading are presumed to only have additional P.P.E. in a Rifts-style setting. With one exception in AU, those species that replace any O.C.C. base with a higher intrinsic total, e.g. dragons, are not included. Species found in WB30 are only listed once, although with one exception those first found in other World Books list the same value.

Potential points of contention:

Spoiler:

1. Several entries list that a value+P.E. is added to the base from the O.C.C., while other entries within the same book do not mention P.E.. I suspect there are those whom would argue that P.E. is not meant to be added twice in those cases.
2. Elves receive a 5d6 bonus in the Rifts setting, whereas other varieties (Jungle/High/Star) do not make this explicit. Frankly I'm cool with the fancy types not getting bonus P.P.E., but YMMV.
3. Promethean Time Master characters receive their native base of 3d6x10, plus an additional 100 P.P.E.. Whether this is taken as specific to that O.C.C., or if an e.g. Promethean Temporal Wizard might get a similar bonus could warrant some discussion at the game table.
4. I've seen it argued that Godlings add the base from a Practioner of Magic class whose powers they select, presumably via claiming P.P.E. counts as part of said O.C.C.'s abilities. Is that made explicitly clear anywhere?

WB1
Vampire, Master: 1d6x10+OCC/2
Vampire, Secondary: 1d4x10+OCC/2
Vampire, Wild: 5d6+OCC/10

WB2
True Atlantean: 10 +6 per tattoo (note DB15 entry)

WB30
Aviane: 2d6+P.E.
Blucie: 6d6+P.E.
Deer Horn Tribesman: 3d6 (Shaman only)
Dewtani: 1d4x10+P.E.
D'Norr Devilman: 6d6+P.E.
Lyvorrk: 2d6+12 (WB1 lists it as 5d6)
Mastadonoids: 6d6
Septumbran Witch Wolf: 6d6

DB5
Ultrovian: 1d6x10

DB6
Paratee: Host gains 2d6

DB15
True Atlantean: 3d6+6 per tattoo

CB1r
Elf: 5d6
Cyclops: 1d6x10
Ki-Lin: +20 per level if Practitioner of Magic (It is unspecified if this is a substitution for normal level increase, or an addition. Whether the 2d6x10 base is supplanted if an O.C.C. with a higher base is selected is similarly unclear)
Scarecrow: 4d6
Sphinx: 3d4x10 +OCC/2

CB2
Demigod: 4d6

PFRPG M&A
Dwarvling: 2d4x10+P.E.
Flying Turtle: 4d6x10
Lizard Mage: 5d6x10 (in Rifts base is 5d6x100, with no note of adding O.C.C. base)
Sphinx: 3d4x10 +OCC (note, not halved as it is in CB1r)

PFRPG11
Danzi: likely 1d6x10 (!d6x10 being a typo)

PFRPG14
Croval: 4d6x2
Kildred: 3d6x10

PFRPG16
Human child of a Selkie: 1d6+6

Aliens Unlimited
Timneh: 2d4x10 (in HU P.E.x3 +1d6 per level, +2d4x10 if Mystic Study Category selected)
Latran: 4d6x10 as replacement for base (in HU M.E.x2)
Shissan: (in HU all are Mystic Study with +30, but "Rifts notes" don't specify if such carries over)
Manteze: (in HU all are Mystic Study with +15, but "Rifts notes" don't specify if such carries over)
Lassinikes: Able to store 15 PPE per level, but it is unspecified how that interacts with other rules regarding temporary excess PPE storage
Jenjoran: Noteworthy for having high base PPE (P.E.x3, x10 for anti-magic warrior), but due to cultural mores don't make much use of it
Tedeschians: (in HU most are Mystic Study with +10, but "Rifts notes" don't specify if such carries over)

Nightbane-specific Morphus options
Dark Designs:
Mythical Creature: (Dragon/Wyvern/Serpent 1d6x10+20, Sphinx 1d4x10, Unicorn 4d6, Fairy 3d6)
Ancient NB: 3d6+10
Survival Guide:
Fantasy: (Wizard Robes 3d6, Aura of Magical Power 1d6x10+3 per level, Wee Folk 4d6)
Infernal: The Mask of Darkness +2d6 per level
Victim: Child 3d6

[drewkitty ~..~]

The RWB1 listing is inaccurate, you didn't list any Species. What you posted were semi-independent flesh golems.

[Mack]

WB3 England, p48: Chiang-Ku dragons can take a magic OCC and get a PPE base of 2D4x10+10 (hatchling) or 2D4x100+200 (adult).

[Curbludgeon]

Mack, I'm looking at WB3 and Dragons and Gods and the text suggests that while a Chiang-Ku, much like other dragons and godlings, can gain much of the knowledge otherwise granted by an O.C.C. they aren't gaining everything, and adding P.P.E. to the dragon's base isn't made explicit. Perhaps this has been cleared up in an errata or demonstrated obliquely in an NPC stat block of which I'm unaware? The latter seems like the best bet, because I'd bet I've seen a hatchling write-up that had more than ~100 P.P.E.. Often adult dragons such as Chiang Six in VU are depicted as having PPE rounded to the nearest hundred, which with them commonly adding their PE score to any rolled total might point to level and O.C.C. gains, but could also just be a matter of editing.

As for the word species, while there is an interesting discussion to be had on how closely interdimensional zoologists might cleave to current classification schema the fact is that some words have multiple definitions, and usage of the term to subdivide the class of sapients rather than that of organisms obviates problematically loaded language.

[Axelmania]

More interesting would be species/RCCs/whatev which explicitly state that you do not get the PPE that the OCC lists.
Or magical OCCs which state that the PPE they give replaces instead of adds to the species/race normal PPE.

Barring statements of mutual exclusivity the simplest and fairest approach seems like it would be to treat them as separate pools or summed pools.

[drewkitty ~..~]

typically those races that don't use the class' Base PPE are the ones that already have more than the typical class' BPPE as their natural BPPE.

[Curbludgeon]

Axelmania, can you think of any examples of beings whom fit either of those categories? One example I know of the former is the Dhampir in the optional article from Rifter 49. While there is a entry or two which list some amount of P.P.E. listed separate from an amount used for effects, like the Maelstrom-Maker, I don't know of anything supporting that characters maintain separate pools.

I'd like to think making this list was less about being interesting than useful.

[Axelmania]

I don't know of anything supporting that characters maintain separate pools.

The Fiend and Arch-Fiend as of DB11:Dyval are at least two examples of it being possible, though it does go out of it's way to explain it.

The "overflow" PPE rules (whatver we call that PE in hours>minutes>melees as it's changed) also kind of operates that way.

One problem with NPC examples if we certainly have NPCs with multiple magic OCCs (two ways of being told how much PPE they have) like Dunscon (the Shifter/LLW) who only have one stated amount of PPE: conveniently a crazy-high amount far beyond what you could get by the sum of either class. Gods being another example of "more than one magic OCC" NPCs are similarly not that helpful since they also often have crazy-high PPE that don't set summing precedents.

Chaing-Ku are one thing we could look at. England 49 doesn't mentioning gaining MDC and PPE per tat like human/ogre/atlantean/elf T-Men which might be intentional since that would give huge incentive to mass-tat oneself... Pg 108 lists "700 adult" for Prrcyval's PPE, implying that it's based on the 400-1000 you roll for adults in general...

This would either mean that they don't get bonus PPE/MDC or that sometimes NPCs will just list racial amounts and not list all OCC boosts.

Rama-Set... Africa 143 lists him as having "PPE 900 adult" similarly...

He's a 12th level tattoo master with at least 16 tattoos (maybe more, not sure if his sword counts as multiple) and 7th level necro to boot.

England 48/49 seems vague on the PPE supplied by magic classes. On the one hand the only thing explicitly "not applicable" is the "other skills", but OTOH the only things explicitly applicable are magic, magic combat, language and reading skills.

It says "magic knowledge and powers increase per level" but it's plausible that "powers" could just refer to the 'level of expeirence' you cast spells at rather than OCC powers... PPE just falls in this blurry middle area which is unaddressed.

Rama-Set having a round 100 multiple of PPE seems to strongly imply you either don't sum the necro PPE or count it as a separate unlisted pool though.

The minimum PPE a 7th necro can have per 104 is 20+PE+14 and you could certainly somehow wrangle a round 100 out of it, so it's I guess possible that Rama-Set could've started with 800 and gotten to 900 via OCC, but this is not a strong argument at all compared to the strength it would have if Rama-Set had PPE which wasn't a multiple of 100, which would indicate he went outside the racial dice.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..
Barring statements of mutual exclusivity the simplest and fairest approach seems like it would be to treat them as separate pools or summed pools.

Nether of these choices are "fair" within canon. Or even in a near canon game. The word that come to mind when reading this sentence starts with an 'M', and ends with an 'n'. If I was GMing the game you were trying to get into with a character with two 100+ BPPEs (ether together or separate) I would; if around a table; would tear up the character sheet in front of everyone.

Now if the GM is doing an epic powered campaign, then and only then does the question in the above sentence make any sense because the GM is saying that he/she is using house rules. In that to ask if the NB wizard should use their race PPE for just their NB talents and class PPE just for spells or combine the race and class PPE pools to form one large PPE pool to draw from.

[Axelmania]

The word that come to mind when reading this sentence starts with an 'M', and ends with an 'n'.

yet Dunscon is better and I don't think just wanting to make the reality more emulatable is munchkin

TBH the exploitation of PPE doesn't really lie in large bases so much as fast regen (which RUE did with lines) or lower cost (which RUE did with TW) because we've always had big storage capacity w/ Talisman not having any kind of size minimum

[Curbludgeon]

That's true, Axlemania, and I wish I had paid more attention to things like regen rates when first putting this together. In addition some species, like True Atlanteans, have classes unique to them with higher rates for P.P.E. drawable per round from lines/nexi, which seems like it might warrant noting.

Bonus to P.P.E.
Bonus to Spell Strength
P.P.E. regeneration rate
Bonus/Penalty to ley line P.P.E. drawing rate
Native spell casting, as seen in Jungle Elves and Dwarvlings

What are other magic-oriented criteria by which I might compile a more useful list? As an example, Ultrovians gain a +1 to Spell Strength, and double their regen rate, but have serious penalities when near ley lines. Having that information together might help someone searching the forum in the future.

Also, considering I included examples of species with access to only one magic-using O.C.C., I suppose the next edit should include groups like Draconoids and arguably Silhouettes, which I now hope to include along with Rifter listings.

Finally, publicly fantasizing about ripping up a player's character sheet is creepily performative, and unwelcome.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The word that come to mind when reading this sentence starts with an 'M', and ends with an 'n'.

yet Dunscon is better and I don't think just wanting to make the reality more emulatable is munchkin

TBH the exploitation of PPE doesn't really lie in large bases so much as fast regen (which RUE did with lines) or lower cost (which RUE did with TW) because we've always had big storage capacity w/ Talisman not having any kind of size minimum

snip...
Now if the GM is doing an epic powered campaign, then and only then does the question in the above sentence make any sense because the GM is saying that he/she is using house rules. In that to ask if the NB wizard should use their race PPE for just their NB talents and class PPE just for spells or combine the race and class PPE pools to form one large PPE pool to draw from.

See I answered the your objection even before you objected.

[Axelmania]

As much as I do like the idea of NB sorcerers having separate pools for Talents/PPE the writeup does seem to imply a shared resource. IE if you burn off permanent PPE to get new talents you aren't just compromising your ability to use talents like a normal NB but also compromising what you can spend on spells too.

[Curbludgeon]

A line on pg 76 in Rifter 58 brings up a possible point of discussion. In the "official" source material for WB32 Lemuria it states that the Mystic variant Sea Mystic adds the Lemurian starting P.P.E. to the Permanent Base P.P.E. in the core rule book. While one could argue that speaks to intent regarding other Practitioner of Magic classes, with all the stuff Lemurians get and how lackluster the Mystic tends to be I could see some games keeping that 5d6+P.E. bonus reserved.

[drewkitty ~..~]

...Lizard Mage: 5d6x10 (in Rifts base is 5d6x100, with no note of adding O.C.C. base)...

I don't know what printing that you are reading from, but the only thing in my edition of PF:M&A under the Rifts notes is that they become MDC with 1d6x100+400 MDC.
No mention of any change from the normal LM PPE base of 5d6x10 PPE + magic OCCs PPE bases.
Mine is the PF2 1st printing.

EDIT: just looked at the RCB's, and get where you got the higher PPE count.
RCB 1994 4th P
PF2: M&A 1996 1st P
RCBr 2002 1st P