I think "same" refers to the effect, but not necessarily how it is used. It's a "power" so they probably can't teach the spell to others like a LLW/Shifter who knew the NM spell.
Furthermore I don't even think it's like a mystic where they're expected to chant magic words. Or maybe there's similar expectations of a mantra like "this isn't real!"? It doesn't seem unreasonable, although "by concentrating" doesn't really sound like it's needed.
Underseas did introduce silent casting (to allow underwater where you don't want to open your mouth, you're holding your breath) so perhaps when that came around it would make sense to have BTS-imported Negas use mantras for standard casting times nd doubled casting times for silent concentration-only usage?
CB37 said that BTS should be considered Rifts Earth ~100 years before the eruptions of the ley lines. "similar but alternate dimension" is a 1-sentence alternative squirreled in at the end before the design note.
Since the COTR happened in 2098 that means BTS is approximately 1998 I guess, about a decade prior to nightbane.
I realize subsequent books have shifted that stance on BTS but at the time, the interpretation seems to be that guys from BTS could be viewed as time-travelers from the same dimension (as Victor Lazlo thought he was, and which makes more sense for him considering his dragon buddy) which might make the CS friendly to using them.
Pre-Psyscape this would be the closest the CS would have to psychics who could neutralize spells, if we assume they might be friendly to allowing BTS imports as citizens, perhaps considering them rescued humans from the past and not D-Bees? Otherwise you're limited to classic psi like "Sense Magic" which couldn't do much to directly interfere with spell effects.
WB12p57 says that there were Nega-Psychics present BEFORE the Coming of the Rifts and distinguishes the "Nega-Psychic of Rifts Earth") which perhaps we could nickname (NORE) as having a different outlook.
For that reason, perhaps the native Negas born in the CS should be different and maybe lack some of the capacities of the classic ones?
Pg 58's "Disrupt Magic" ability describes disrupting a ritual or casting, to "prevent the spell from being successfully cast" implying once casting is done the Nega can't do anything. This is a HUGE limitation, and ESPECIALLY huge as of RUE where spells can now be cast in even less time, giving a smaller window of intervention. The Nullifier's "Interference" ability (pg 66) suffers the same problem (must be done during casting, not after) though it's at least automatic against stuff they're targeted with.
This limitation does not exist with having an equivalent of the "Negate Magic" spell. This can be done AFTER a spell is cast, so the CS having access to this would be a HUGE gamechanger. As would the THREE other spell-emulating powers that BTS-imports also get (Dispel Magic Barriers, Detect Concealment, Turn Dead)
CBrevised59 doesn't seem to have changed anything from CB37 and this variant of nega-psychics being swallowed in to the CS would be super useful if used right.
It gives alternatives to "the Vanguard helped" for dealing with problems like spamming magic pigeons to cloud Psi-Hound senses, instead it might just be a bunch of BTS-originated Nega-Psychics disbelieving in those pigeons and them vanishing.
It also allows the CS more flexibility in stopping already-cast magic. If you have mages teleporting in with already-activated Impervious to Energy for example, a "World Nega" can't do anything, while a "Beyond Nega" could use his NM power to possible lower the ITE spell while the CS are charging their lasers.
This also gives me cause to example the spell Negate Magic because I realize I'm not entirely sure how it works. Originally on RMBp181 (pg 123 of BOM, pg 216 of RUE) this 8th level spell could be put on a talisman to counteract magical effects.
You "roll a saving throw" and a "successful save against the magic used" the influence is destroyed/negated/cancelled.
The part I'm confused about is who specifically is rolling the save and what bonuses are applied to it.
Given that "ritual magic has a greater chance of success" the implication seems to be that you roll against the spell strength of the person who cast Negate Magic. Since a Nega-Psychic has no spell strength bonus (and presumably cannot cast it as a ritual) I expect this power would be fixed at 12 for the BTS imports?
The part I don't get is: is it just a raw no-bonus save (the spell itself has no PE so no + vs magic) or if you can add the bonuses to save vs magic by whoever originally cast the spell.
If that were the case, a lot of questions arise, like would it be their bonus at the time they cast it, or their bonus at the time Negate Magic was cast?
Or should it be an entirely different thing like using the Spell Strength bonus as a bonus to save vs magic? If that were the case if https://palladiumbooks.com/index.php/re ... -questions is true and it works against magic tattoos then what bonus should they get?
For stuff like the effects of Techno-Wizard devices, that would potentially require weird stuff like knowing the save vs magic of the TW who made the item, making items made by higher-bonus TWs more valuable since they would be harder to negate. I wonder if in that case perhaps it might be the bonus of the user rather than the TW creator?
I'm sure this must be something people have asked about before but I can't recall if we got any answers in FAQs/Errata...
If we add the "+x to save vs magic" bonus of spellcasters to this D20 roll against the Spell Strength of 12/16 for Negate Magic then knowing "bonuses when" is important when taking into account spells that give bonuses.
For example I was recently reminded that the 7th level spell Invulnerability (RMB178/BOM116, not in RUE) gives +10 to save vs magic
- 1) if "bonuses at time of casting original spell" mattered, you might have a lot of mages casting Invulnerability on themselves prior to casting important long-duration spells to make them harder to negate.
2) if "bonuses at time Negate Magic is cast" mattered, you might have mages constantly keeping Invulnerability active on themselves to protect their ongoing spell effects that might be active abroad from being negated.
The 7th level spell Dispel Magic Barriers (merely costs 20 instead of 30 PPE too, and has a superior range of 100ft to 60ft) is also important to understand the mechanics of. DMB this text:
- The magic spell being attacked automatically gets a standard savings throw (12) as if it were a person.
This is interesting because here it's much clearer who is making the roll: the SPELL rather than the CASTER... and there's absolutely no mention at all of getting a bonus to the D20 roll.
If spells don't get the caster's bonuses against magic that's important to note since it would make negating much harder.
If that's the case though: should there be some ways of getting a bonus to make spells harder to negate by DMB?
One idea that occurred to me: the 5th level spell "Superhuman Strength" spell imparts a PE of 24 to "the character" (self or others by touch). For 30 seconds per level you enjoy the +5 to save vs magic which PE 24 gives, for 10 PPE. Potentially a better deal if you can't afford the 25 PPE for 15 seconds/level for Invulnerability.
If mages can't protect their spells by casting these on themselves, what if as a house rule we allowed mages to cast these spells on SPELLS (instead of characters) to allow spells to have a bonus to that savings throw they get against NM/DMB? It would be pretty hard to implement so if a caster really wanted to do it I don't see any problem. Thoughts?
Detect Concealment doesn't get a savings throw (all Concealment spells just fail) so I can't think of a defence there. That seems super-valuable for detecting contraband. Otherwise at best you have psi-hounds being all "something magic is in the area" unless they save vs magic to see it.
Turn Dead is a 2nd level spell (RMB170, BOM95, RUE201) would also be a really sweet ability. It might seem pointless for standard SDC skeletons (CS can just laser them) but it would matter a LOT for souped up ones (wearing MDC armor, Mystic Russia MDC bone, if mages enchant them with armor before sending them to attack) allowing "Beyond Negas" in CS employ to repel swarms of attackers.
That said I'm also unclear on how TD works. They "will not come back to 24 hours" but back to WHERE? They leave "the area", but what is the area?
I assumed "up to 60ft away" was the range from the caster to the skeleton, but might it also function like a 60ft radius around some location into which a skeleton can no longer voluntarily enter? If so, would that radius be centered on the caster, or centered on the various locations where the 1D6 skeletons were at the time the spell was cast?
Another interesting question for "Beyond Negas" using these powers: would they benefit from increased range/duration from proximal ley lines like with the spells, or would ley lines not affect them because they're just powers that work like magic?
