The Bionic super spy ideas and thoughts

[ryokoryu]

The super spy OCC comes just a bit short on the spy part of the superspy side of things but the old way of selecting secondary skills mostly made up for it, however for the most part psionics and magic did make them about as functional as they should be but the partial conversion borg part aside from lacking details about their particular conversions (for example the budget for upgrades) and the bionics don't have quite the impact as the magic or psionic superspies not even mentioning the superpower category which the powers cam break games. Because of the differences in this effectiveness of said selections I was thinking the superspy would probably be well suited to some MOS style differences. What would you put as MOS skills for which kind of superspy, for instance a magical super spy should probably get more lore skills to my opinion and the bionic I think should get a bionics budget, and cyber disguise t should be standard with them as well as undercover ops and ID undercover agent. Psionic superspies I think should have a more counter-intelligence feel to them. Rooting out enemy spies and such.

[Hotrod]

I did up an "agent" variant of my Disposable Combat Cyborg NPC Generator (see the link below) that included skill choices, upgrades, disguises, and weapons all meant to create this very type of character. That's based on the RUE Combat Cyborg O.C.C., but it seems to fit the bill pretty well. I guess I don't really see the need for a cyborg variant of the super-spy.

[ryokoryu]

I did up an "agent" variant of my Disposable Combat Cyborg NPC Generator (see the link below) that included skill choices, upgrades, disguises, and weapons all meant to create this very type of character. That's based on the RUE Combat Cyborg O.C.C., but it seems to fit the bill pretty well. I guess I don't really see the need for a cyborg variant of the super-spy.

First, there is a definitive flavor distinction in combat cyborg and a partial conversion borg. The issue I have right now is that the superspy as written has more effective variants and less effective variants. My Headhunter gets everything the superspy has access to and more including H2H commando. what I am looking for is ideas of modifying the way it is written into an MOS style format to give skill selection to make the thing more unique based on the kind of superspy chosen. Magic and psionics both offer a considerably stronger character with everything and more than the cyborg option. The bionics to be used are also not exactly present and neither is a budget for making the bionics selection and the stat adjustments. If you follow the headhunter rules for the conversion than most of the skills you rely on as a spy take a significant penalty at -15% and be pretty obvious. I am looking for ideas not an alternative.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

You're just dealing with the result of the narrow-minded OCC system, basically.

Instead of trying to "fix" a broken class, just use the better one. Want to play a partial borg Superspy? Then roll up an espionage-centered Headhunter and play a spy.

Want to be a better magical-based spy? Then just roll a mage and be a spy.

Want to be a better Psionic-based spy? Then just roll a Master Psychic and be a spy.

In every one of those instances youll be more successful as a spy than that OCC.

Pretty much all the OCCs in that book are subpar (some from the very day they were published) and out-dated. Just leave them on the scrap heap.

[ryokoryu]

You're just dealing with the result of the narrow-minded OCC system, basically.

Instead of trying to "fix" a broken class, just use the better one. Want to play a partial borg Superspy? Then roll up an espionage-centered Headhunter and play a spy.

Want to be a better magical-based spy? Then just roll a mage and be a spy.

Want to be a better Psionic-based spy? Then just roll a Master Psychic and be a spy.

In every one of those instances youll be more successful as a spy than that OCC.

Pretty much all the OCCs in that book are subpar (some from the very day they were published) and out-dated. Just leave them on the scrap heap.

not entirely accurate, in order to take the needed skills to be an effective spy a mind melter or burster would need the GM to approve the skill choices they would not normally get. this and the superspy gets a bit more flexibility earlier than the mind melter does and has the potential to have more super category psionic powers. the skill selections to most mages are likewise going to be missing key skills without the GM approving the off-color skill choices. Both those categories of super spy will offer advantages over their psionic or magical non-super spy counterparts. The headhunter gets all the skill needed to be exactly what the kind of super spy you would be able to build and more, better options in the end.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

You're just dealing with the result of the narrow-minded OCC system, basically.

Instead of trying to "fix" a broken class, just use the better one. Want to play a partial borg Superspy? Then roll up an espionage-centered Headhunter and play a spy.

Want to be a better magical-based spy? Then just roll a mage and be a spy.

Want to be a better Psionic-based spy? Then just roll a Master Psychic and be a spy.

In every one of those instances youll be more successful as a spy than that OCC.

Pretty much all the OCCs in that book are subpar (some from the very day they were published) and out-dated. Just leave them on the scrap heap.

not entirely accurate, in order to take the needed skills to be an effective spy a mind melter or burster would need the GM to approve the skill choices they would not normally get. this and the superspy gets a bit more flexibility earlier than the mind melter does and has the potential to have more super category psionic powers. the skill selections to most mages are likewise going to be missing key skills without the GM approving the off-color skill choices. Both those categories of super spy will offer advantages over their psionic or magical non-super spy counterparts. The headhunter gets all the skill needed to be exactly what the kind of super spy you would be able to build and more, better options in the end.

You're focusing far too much on the skill selections and not taking into account that most of them can be rendered trivial or useless with Psionics and Magic.

Who needs prowl when you can literally turn invisible, inaudible, and completely undedectable to both magic and psionics?

Who needs interrogation when you can literally tear their mind apart and find what you want?

You dont need all those computer skills if you have Telemechanics (or the Radio skills).

Etc.

Also, the Psionic Super spy cannot get more Super Psionic powers than a Mind Melter.

Mind Melter gets 3 at level 1 (Super Spy gets 1), another at level 2 (as well as still getting more regular psionics), another at 3rd (and still gets more regular psionics), TWO at 4th level, and then up to 2 per level afterwards (as at that point it is 2/level from ANY category). Assuming both make it to 15th level, the Mind Melter will have as many as TWENTY NINE Super Psionics (3, +1, +1, +2, +2/addtl level x 11 addtl levels), AND will still have a pretty extensive set of "non Super" psionics. The Super Spy can, at most, get 15 (one per level), and will have a very small selection of other psionics.

Im not saying thats unbalanced or anything - given the far better skill selection, they shouldn't have as many psionic powers. But your assertion was.. not close to correct.

Back to my point, though, a Techno-Wizard makes an amazing mage-spy. A Shifter and Line Walker aren't bad either, though they dont ALSO get Telemechanics, which the TW does. There are spells that make up for just about every skill the character loses or cant select (though they can get a lot of them - they have full access to Rogue, and can learn Intelligence from Espionage), and quite a few spells that do parts of that job BETTER than any skill can. (Improved Invisibility + Invisibility to Sensors = lolwut prowl. Combine by ALSO layering on Simple Invisibility, and even when you open fire, if you have to, you're STILL invisible.) Need to get around security systems? Portal right through the wall. Etc.

Psionics can similarly be used to avoid the need for almost all of those skills. Invisibility is a little more chancy (psionic invis kind of sucks a lot) but you can literally peel open someone's mind for information, object read objects for information about what happened in an area, take over machines, learn everything a machine knows, take PEOPLE over, wipe their brains to remove memories of you being there, etc.

If you want to be a character whose profession is "spy" and use magic, you're better off playing a straight caster.
If you want to be a character whose profession is "spy" and use psionics, you're better off being a mind melter (and maybe a Psi Slayer)
If you want to be a character whose profession is "spy" and want tech and gadgets to be your thing, you're better off playing a Headhunter (partial) or Cyber Humanoid (Full conversion). Or playing a Paratrooper, or Special Forces type OCC (though not the one in Mercs as it is outshone by dozens of classes that came after it; Paratrooper is ABSURDLY good).

That was the point i was trying to make.

[ryokoryu]

First and foremost the short term operations you describe there would make a poor spy in the long run, at best you would be looking to get in and out today and screw the consequences tomorrow. First telepathy barely gets you the surface thoughts and the individual will know you are messing with them in order to rip knowledge from their mind, even then it's temporary, you can't just permanently rip secrets out for good, secondly, if you mentally possess an individual you can be recognized a lot easier and be cast out. Mages, other psionic characters, D-Bees and though they are psychics themselves Psi-stalkers are a category unto themselves. A spy with the skills they need (such as undercover operations) can sit there for months undetected and pass along a stream of information, Learn the facility/organization inside and out. The kind of spy you think of with your description would be some James bond types. there is way more to spy than I get in and break their security today. Inflicting months of subtle sabotage, putting in a back door program that lets your guy hack their power armors and shut em down. Any organization worth infiltrating at a high-security level is going to have anti-magic and anti-psionic measures in place. A real spy would use a combination of skill AND their powers to get past the pitfalls of one means or the other. a normal spy would probably be better equipped to infiltrate a place than a mind melter shifter or TW though the last of those would probably come the closest. the Superspy should have a combination so as to avoid the pitfalls of the pure psychic or mage to infiltrate and the pitfalls of the normal spy. your suggestion of don't bother coming up with ideas to fix the OCC, just play something that does X better is a fallacy. By your own admission the OCCs in the mercenaries book were weak even in their debut but the concepts of them are interesting and diverse and provide a good starting place to design a better class. Comming in here and saying that we should just play a different class denies the flavor and potential therein. A headhunter from sheer skill makes a better spy than the bionics superspy but it doesn't have to, it is missing details and refinement to become a flavor unto itself and if you can't help add to that then all you're doing is taking away from the discussion.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The thing I would suggest would be to look at the 'wired agent' in the ninjas and Superspies core book. And to look at the 'bionics' power cat in the HU2 core book. Both to get ideas about your char's core concepts but also to see how those PB games do things differently.

Off hand, those are the only two current PB games outside of rifts that I can think of that have bionics in them.

PS: Yes, nitpickers, there are the invid bionic experiments in both the Invid Invasion (1st ed RT) and the New Generation (2nd ed RT) books. But neither of them are current.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Paragraph breaks, my man. Paragraph breaks.

First and foremost the short term operations you describe there would make a poor spy in the long run, at best you would be looking to get in and out today and screw the consequences tomorrow.

Uh... how? There are no consequences that dont also exist exactly the same for a non-psychic or magic using spy.

First telepathy barely gets you the surface thoughts and the individual will know you are messing with them in order to rip knowledge from their mind, even then it's temporary, you can't just permanently rip secrets out for good,

Telepathy? Mind Bond, my man. Mind Bond. I now know EVERYTHING they know. And.. how is this any different from interrogation? They know im doing it either way.

As for permanently ripping out secrets for good?

Total Recall my friend. Or i just write it down/dictate it/store it before i forget it. And at the same time i can make him forget it forever (Mind Wipe, 50 ISP spent, BLAMO, gone forever).

secondly, if you mentally possess an individual you can be recognized a lot easier and be cast out. Mages, other psionic characters, D-Bees and though they are psychics themselves Psi-stalkers are a category unto themselves. A spy with the skills they need (such as undercover operations) can sit there for months undetected and pass along a stream of information, Learn the facility/organization inside and out.

So can a psychic with Telemechanics, Telemechanic Operatoin, and Telemechanic Possession. And if we're talking about a Psychic Spy (meaning, your Super Spy is the psychic variety) he has exactly the same chances to get outed by Psi-stalkers or Dog Boys, or whatever, as a Mind Melter. More, actually, since a Mind Melter can (in addition to having a lot more Super powers) have a raft of lesser power including Mask ISP and Mask PPE, making him almost impossible to detect.

Also.. precisely what disguise skills/espionage skills can the Super Spy have that the Mind Melter cant? He gets full access to Espionage and Rogue.

The kind of spy you think of with your description would be some James bond types.

No, thats you projecting what you think im thinking.

there is way more to spy than I get in and break their security today. Inflicting months of subtle sabotage, putting in a back door program that lets your guy hack their power armors and shut em down.

Okay. Technical: Any, Science: Any, Rogue: Any. A Mind Melter can do all these things.

Any organization worth infiltrating at a high-security level is going to have anti-magic and anti-psionic measures in place.

Not hardly. Triax definitely doesn't (they dont use Magic Users, and there are no Dog Boys or Psi Stalkers in the NGR), Free Quebec ABSOLUTELY does not (they dont use Psychics OR Dog Boys, much less magic users). NG/MI may or may not - we dont know. A LOT of places (especially those with tech-based societies) DONT use Magic or Psychics for racist/classist/political reasons.

And.. you do realize that this argument Also utterly defeats your own Super Spy OCC with the Psychic Powers, Right?

If those measure exist against a Mind Melter, they exist against a psychic super spy.

A real spy would use a combination of skill AND their powers to get past the pitfalls of one means or the other.

A Mind Melter has access to all of those skills. A mage (TW, Shifter, or LLW) doesn't need to use "skills" to get past those pitfalls. Magic is absurdly good at spying. Prowl? worthless. Need to steal something? Teleport: Lesser. Poof its gone and you dont have to carry it out. Thing you need locked in the safe? POOF, entire safe is gone, open it later. Need a disguise? Magics got that. Need to avoid Psi-stalkers/Dog Boys? Spells for that. TWs have it even better since they can build items to do all these things ahead of time and (if your GM lets you, i personally dislike items with built-in PPE) you dont even need to spend your own PPE to use them.

I'd also point out that the thing you're harping on about (the ability to spend months casing a joint or working in close to targets) is antithetical to good gameplay. You cant RP that without making the entire rest of the party bored as sin. Spies as PCs, by necessity, are going to be the "James Bond" type. Because thats fun for everyone. Same way playing a "Real" Sniper is fun for precisely no one but that player, and you're better of playing a "sniper" type character as more of a designated marskman (pick off weapons emplacements, power cords, shoot weapons out of hands, etc).

a normal spy would probably be better equipped to infiltrate a place than a mind melter shifter or TW though the last of those would probably come the closest. the Superspy should have a combination so as to avoid the pitfalls of the pure psychic or mage to infiltrate and the pitfalls of the normal spy.

Except they dont. They are either a bad magic user with some espionage skills, a bad psychic with espionage skills, or a bad cyborg with some espionage skills.

your suggestion of don't bother coming up with ideas to fix the OCC, just play something that does X better is a fallacy.

Fallacy - noun - a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.

Lolwut?

A Mind Melter can do everything the (psychic) Super Spy can, but better.
A Mage can do everything the (Mage) Super Spy can, but better.
A Headhunter or Cyber Humanoid can do everything the cyborg Super Spy can, but better.

So.... how exactly am i "mistaken"?

By your own admission the OCCs in the mercenaries book were weak even in their debut

Not all of them. At the time, the Special Forces OCC was the bees knees. Its simply been surpassed in every way by later releases. (Commando, Special Forces, Paratrooper,and Gunfighter all do it better).

but the concepts of them are interesting and diverse and provide a good starting place to design a better class.

Better classes already exist and dont need to be designed.

Comming in here and saying that we should just play a different class denies the flavor and potential therein.

Because flavor is based on your roleplaying. The text under the "OCC" portion of your character sheet is irrelevant. How you play determines what your character is and does.

A headhunter from sheer skill makes a better spy than the bionics superspy but it doesn't have to, it is missing details and refinement to become a flavor unto itself and if you can't help add to that then all you're doing is taking away from the discussion.

I can see you're the type of person that defines their character solely by the text on the sheet.

If i sat down at a table with you (not with you as the GM) and played a Spy-based Headhunter, you would never know what my actual OCC was. Because how my character acts, behaves, and what he does is not controlled by the OCC on his character sheet. Its based on his actual in-game profession, his personality, and skills. You would think he is a spy (because he is), because he behaves like one, and completes that mission.

One of Rifts biggest weaknesses is pointless and reduntant OCCs. There are multiple DOZENS of OCCs that have no reason even existing, when another OCC could simply have been used that already existed. RUE is even worse, as it introduced truly redundant OCCs (Merc Soldier is inferior to Grunt in every conceivable way).

You wanted to know what people thought should be done to deal with the fact that the class underperforms.

I told you what i thought - ignore it. Its junk, just like about 1/3 of the OCCs in RUE, and DOZENS of OCCs from other books that simply replicate (badly or less good) other OCCs that already exist.

[ryokoryu]

I want succestions to alter the class to make it perform it's intended niche the way it should and specifically that and your solution is don't do what you intend to do so yes this line of thinking you have is a fallacy. your argument of how do we change this using the MOS system found in other OCCs based on the type of super spy you pick (which is a very specific request which you give a very generic answer that does nothing to address the question) si well the way it's written is outperformed by other OCCs so use them does nothing to put that niche it is supposed to fill in the game. the headhunter is very obviously a partial cyborg, the bionics spy maybe shouldn't be. I already have a basic idea from Powers Unlimited 2 on some things that would be helpful in the bionics department but they are also more powerful than the headhunters type of partial conversion in most ways in comparison. The bionic Superspy would be the most reliant on more skills even with he said solution from PU2 entered AS IS. By the way yes the conventional spy AS WRITTEN in the mercenaries book (the freelance spy) gets more skills that would be useful setting up a cover identity and spending lots of time getting in and out without having the organization after them and the party after done. Not everyone likes the combat every other move or even combat every session type of play. You may find that boring but some people would like to have a game where they infiltrate and steal something from badguy X or Hero Z. Unless I know the GM I don't bother playing a cyber doc anymore although I would love to play a cyber doc as a cyber doc because the campaigns are so combat focused but the GM I learned to play rifts with didn't do it that way and our group had way more fun having the role-playing elements there. Something he also did was no matter how plausible a lie you told was or how well you the player acted it if you didn't have performance and you didn't have a high MA you were not likely to convince the NPCs because you rolled as an unskilled roll for those and the odds were just against you. I LIKE that aspect because it keeps the game in CHARACTER. So no, no matter how good you are at acting out the scene if your character doesn't have the skills to pull it off they can't.

[ryokoryu]

By the way mind bond tells the person you bonded with everything about YOU as well, they will know you screwed with them.

[Hotrod]

Huh. Maybe I should make a Headhunter NPC Generator next. I'm a little curious about how a spy variant would work.

[Orin J.]

really, this are kind of a hard argument to deal with. one side thinks you can replace skills with powersets, so they aren't interested in the idea you should be using those skills to allow the powers to cover aspects of the spy game they couldn't otherwise get (nobody expects the mind-melter to use conventional skills to get what they want, or the wizard to hide themselves with a normal disguise that can't be foiled by detect concealment) and it means the discussion doesn't have any way to meet in the center.

that said headhunters are a terrible replacement, their skill selections are very focused and limited. that makes it very hard for them to adopt the skills needed for proper infiltration of any population.

[ryokoryu]

really, this are kind of a hard argument to deal with. one side thinks you can replace skills with powersets, so they aren't interested in the idea you should be using those skills to allow the powers to cover aspects of the spy game they couldn't otherwise get (nobody expects the mind-melter to use conventional skills to get what they want, or the wizard to hide themselves with a normal disguise that can't be foiled by detect concealment) and it means the discussion doesn't have any way to meet in the center.

that said headhunters are a terrible replacement, their skill selections are very focused and limited. that makes it very hard for them to adopt the skills needed for proper infiltration of any population.

you're right that there is no meeting in the middle but there shouldn't be an argument here in the first place. the post is to discuss alterations we can make to the skills and discuss t potential fixes using the already existing MOS system that rifts used for other (primarily military) OCCs. a bionics superspy would realistically be necessarily more reliant on skills than the other options because the bionics more give them access to tools to use the skills more effectively whereas magic and psionic versions, while a little under-skilled don't come out significantly behind In abilities. He doesn't seem to grasp that I am not looking to play them as written. His entire reply fails to even recognize the original post's entire purpose. When you answer one question with answers from another question meeting in the middle is not likely.
The Ninjas and Superspies books are a good idea but very hard to read. The font style hurts my eyes to look at so I avoid those books like the plague. The real trick with the variants on the Superspy is to give the variants the flavor of the choice. Like I said with an earlier post, the magical variant should get skills reflecting their magical expertise. My starting variant to work on would be the bionics variant. You are obviously analytically minded, I expect you would have good contributions to the discussion if we can (hopefully) move on from the posts not related to the alterations.

[Hotrod]

that said headhunters are a terrible replacement, their skill selections are very focused and limited. that makes it very hard for them to adopt the skills needed for proper infiltration of any population.

Limited? Yes. Focused? No. They can select any espionage or rogue skill. They only get four O.C.C. Related skill selections, but they also come with Detect Ambush, Detect Concealment, Computer Operation, Read Sensory Equipment, Electronic Countermeasures, and Tracking as O.C.C. skills. That's 10 skills that a spy could find quite useful (or build on to become useful).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

By the way mind bond tells the person you bonded with everything about YOU as well, they will know you screwed with them.

Just like if you interrogate them.

So whats your point?

Except you can then mind-wipe them. And make it permanent.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

really, this are kind of a hard argument to deal with. one side thinks you can replace skills with powersets,

Because you can. This isn't a "thinks". You CAN. I dont need prowl if i can turn invisible and inaudible. In fact, simply using Invisibility: Superior gives me Prowl 84%. I can then render it totally irrelevant with Stealthwalk, levitation, flight, etc.

You dont need Hacking if you have Telemechanic Operation (or, arguably, Telemechanics).

These aren't things that are up for discussion. They simply work.

so they aren't interested in the idea you should be using those skills to allow the powers to cover aspects of the spy game they couldn't otherwise get

Well, for Mind Melter, that is precisely zero skills. They can get all of the skills a spy can get. They have full access to Espionage, Rogue, Technical, etc. (They actually have a pretty wide open skill selection). Then they can use their powers to cover the ones they dont have or their powers do better (why waste a skill slot on Computer Hacking when you can simply take Telemechanics and/or Telemechanic Operation? - one has a % chance of failure that is quite high until you're high level, the other just works).

(nobody expects the mind-melter to use conventional skills to get what they want,

If they bothered to take the skill, i certainly expect them to use it. Otherwise, dont take it.

or the wizard to hide themselves with a normal disguise that can't be foiled by detect concealment)

Depending on the class they may not be ABLE to, (if the skill is or is not available), but i see no reason not to use one if its prefferable. If you have the skills, then you should use them. Though a mage-type Super Spy should probably be more stealth-oriented, not blend-in oriented. Hes got a lot more tools for the former, not so much the latter.

and it means the discussion doesn't have any way to meet in the center.

Because your entire premise is based on a logical fault. One side is correct (skills CAN be replaced with Psionic Powers/Magic - sometimes quite literally as some spells simply GRANT SKILLS) and the other is not.

OP (and lets be honest here you're talking about me and the OP) still hasn't addressed that what he wants ("i spend months blending in, like a real life spy") is antithetical to gameplay. Its incompatible to party play even at its most basic. Even if the GM handwaves the time away with "roll some skills, you succeed, its been months, you're firmly planted as a spy" - BAM, you just wasted 20% of Frank's character's life (he's a Juicer) so you could be a "more realistic" spy.

If thats the kind of gameplay you want, i suggest that Rifts is not the game you're looking for. Spies in Rifts are guys who pull of daring heists, infiltrations, and interrogations - I.E. James Bond.

that said headhunters are a terrible replacement, their skill selections are very focused and limited. that makes it very hard for them to adopt the skills needed for proper infiltration of any population.

I think HotRod caught this, but they really aren't. They get a lot of the skills you need as OCC skills and have full access to Espionage and Rogue.

Honestly, though, if i was going for "cyborg super spy", im taking Cyber Humanoid (Bionice Sourcebook). Thats basically exactly what they are. And theyre way better at it.

[ryokoryu]

By the way mind bond tells the person you bonded with everything about YOU as well, they will know you screwed with them.

Just like if you interrogate them.

So whats your point?

Except you can then mind-wipe them. And make it permanent.

at a permanent cost to you. you fry your own brain a bit to make them forget you. Keep in mind that while you take their info and skills they take yours and if you are a well-trained spy they then get the ability to escape captivity the way you would. Direct interrogation is also not the only form of interrogation. there are ways of questioning people without them realizing they are being questioned and know they are giving away secrets. how do you think information brokers would earn a living. by the way I have done this in real life, got information indirectly from talking about things in ways they didn't realize what was happening. your sense of subtlety seriously lacks. once you were done with your spy op the way you would do it your face would be plastered everywhere and there would be a price on your head. there are effective countermeasures to psionics and magic in the books, they don't just suddenly god mode you.

[ryokoryu]

Likewise if your masking your ISP you lose the benefits of masking your ISP. YOU LIGHT UP LIKE A BEACON actively using your psionic abilities.
This is a psionic power that enables the character to completely mask all spiritual aspects of his psionic energy and powers. Even the aura is temporarily altered. As a result, other psychics, Dog Boys, PsiStalkers, and creatures who can Detect Psionics or See Aura will not sense psionics in a character who is masked. However, the masked psychic must "block" himself from the world, which means he cannot use any of his psionic senses or abilities, nor receive Empathic or Telepathic impressions until he lets the mask go