Coake's strike bonuses in SOT4 .. for throwing swords/axes?

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Axelmania
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Coake's strike bonuses in SOT4 .. for throwing swords/axes?

Unread post by Axelmania »

I was just gandering at SOT4p77 today... I realize this was pre-RUE so I would have to look at components from a 90s vs 2000s perspective.

First to start with what has remained constant...
RMB08/RUE281: a PP of 20 gives +3 to strike
RMB37/RUE348: HTH Martial arts gives +2 to strike at level 2... and then never anything ever again

RMB 32 WP Sword maxes out at +5 by level 4
    RUE 326 WP Sword maxes out at +6 by level 15

NGR 155 WP Battle Axe maxes out at +4 by level 12.
    RUE 326 WP Axe maxes out at +5 to strike by level 15

Coake is mentioned as having BattleAxe/Sword both at level 15, then is mentioned as being:
+8 to strike (+9 with swords, axes and Psi-weapons)

+3 and +2 should make him +5 in unarmed combat... so he somehow gets another +3 to strike.
I would credit that to assuming he wears his Belt of Strength...

In that case though, why do swords/axes have the same bonus as each other (swords consistently have +1 to strike better than axes when maxed out) and why are they only 1 higher?

+4 to strike for WP Battle Axe should be TWO points higher than the +2 for HTH MA, while +5 to strike for WP Sword should be THREE points higher than the +2 for HTH MA.

Rather than being 15th level in his WP, it actually seems like Coake has Sword (in RMB32 terms) somewhere between 7th to 10th level (to get merely a +3) and Battle Axe (in NGR 155 terms) between level 8 to 11.

That's just going by melee range distance though. NGR155 does only give a +3 to hit with a Battle Axe for THROWN by 12th level, so perhaps it's talking about Coake THROWING his psi-axes?

RMB has no throwing bonus for WP Sword (nor did HU) but RUE327 does... the 4/8/12 progression is actually more generous than N&Sp46 was for WP Large Sword (5/10/14)

Nightbane/HU2 had no +strike when thrown for WP sword, so I think if Coake's bonus reflects throwing his psi-swords it would probably be from PF2p60 which I believe introduced the 4/8/12 that RUE inherited.

Of course the problem with THAT theory is thast WP Battle Axe was changed to get +4 when thrown by 12th level...

So for them to have the SAME bonus it would have to go something like:
    1) *look up strike bonus for axes in NGR*
    2) *try to look up strike bonuses for sword in Rifts, find none, take them from PF instead
    3) *either don't notice Battle Axe bonuses changed, or ignore because NGR over-rides

This being for throwing would also explain why the +2 for HTH martial arts isn't incorporated into those bonuses, which I think is perhaps standard practise? I know you don't stack HTH/WP in N&S without a weapon kata but I seem to recall citations or examples in other games where you do stack them, but with exemptions for ranged weapons like throwing/archery/guns.

I think this strongly supports the idea that Cyber-Knights can throw their psi-weapons. This also gives an important role for the psi-shield: you have something left to parry with after you just threw your sword(s) away.

I can't remember where we might've discussed this before in previous threads... RUE 181 for the Super-Psi that a Mind Melter would use (not necessarily transferable to other psi-weapons used by Psi-Slayers, Amaki Duelists, Cyber-Knights or Spirit Warriors) has 2 mentions:
    knocked unconscious, the weapon disappears
    can willingly dispel the weapon with a thought

RUE 64 (just as SOT4p24) has "no limit as to how long the sword remains in effect" which sounds like you could definitely keep it intact when throwing it or lending it to an ally, or even have it remain intact when unconscious.

I see no "can willingly dispel" note for Cyber-Knights but I figure that's something we just assume they can do, since "can cancel with a thought" seems to be how most psionic powers in general work even if that isn't mentioned.

Latent Psychics (HU2p313) and Mind Mages (PF2p178) lending Psi-Swords to allies was forbidden in SDC settings (text was added), but AFAIK this hasn't made it's way to Rifts (not put into Ultimate), perhaps meaning that the MD swords are more stable in higher-magic settings and thus lendable+throwable w/ no prohibition.

Of course, pg 24 of SOT4 (and then RUE64) does add text (6th sentence of 2nd paragraph of "Shape") saying "psi-weapons can not be thrown".

What my theory here is that perhaps Coake was written up on pg 77 prior to this text being added to page 24. As far as I'm aware there was nothing prior to this that prevented Cyber-Knights from throwing their psi-weapons, so Coake could've been written with that original benefit in mind, and then they forgot to update his bonuses after adding this text to page 24.

What I think supports this is that Coake is a sword-throwing fella. Pg 78 he has "Joker's Ace" which gets strikes bonuses in addition to WP which are even higher when throwing than striking in melee. Given how prone Coake would be to throwing that sword, it's likely he would've been prone to throwing his psi-sword too.

Given the plurality of this disclaimer ("psi weapons cannot be thrown" rather than "a psi weapon cannot be throw") one might opt to interpret that as meaning you can't throw your pair of psi-weapons simultaneously, but could throw them one at a time. IE their paired weapons only allow twin strikes in HTH, not throwing.

This would give them flexibility for semi-ranged combat (though even pistols will have better range than the 20ft RUE 328 says you can most-accurately throw awkward melee weapons at) while still giving incentive to get into HTH range so you can make use of dual-weapon strikes to double your damage output.
Shark_Force
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Re: Coake's strike bonuses in SOT4 .. for throwing swords/ax

Unread post by Shark_Force »

there are games where NPCs are built using the same rules as for PCs. and there are games where they are not.

palladium is not among the ones that use the same rules.
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Axelmania
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Re: Coake's strike bonuses in SOT4 .. for throwing swords/ax

Unread post by Axelmania »

Shark_Force wrote:there are games where NPCs are built using the same rules as for PCs. and there are games where they are not.

palladium is not among the ones that use the same rules.


Palladium sometimes will mention when they use special rules for NPCs though.

For example, Coake's bonus to resist poison is identified as such.

Where they don't go out of their way to do that, we must assume they at least INTENDED to construct the NPCs using the rules.

If they seem to deviate from that, it might sometimes be intentional, but could also be a mistake, so I like to explore possible explanations.
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