a bone to pick with Dave Dorman about wearing shields w/ 2Hw

[Axelmania]

Game Master Guide pg 2:

The cover: Is what artist Dave Dorman thinks when he thinks Rifts®.

That turban guy in the read cape... he's clearly got a 2 handed grip on his sword, yet wears a shield strapped to his left forearm.

Tactically speaking how does this differ from wielding that sword in just the right hand and allowing the left arm to be 100% dedicated to using the shield?

It occurs to me that by mutually gripping the sword, this should actually allow the strength of the right arm to stabilize the left arm and actually help stabilize the shield better. But at the same time you would have less versatility in positioning since you'd be limited by how far across the body the right hand could reach.

[Orin J.]

i vaguely recall there being a style that used a two-handed sword with a largeish shield at one point in the general middle-east area but i've forgotten the exact names and hoo boy the internet is NOT on my side on this one. i think it was about the missile weapons at the time being thrown stuff in that area mostly so it let you have coverage right up until the last moment.

[The Beast]

Dude it's the cover. No RPG rules let you play the guy on the cover.

[lather]

Not going to dig into it but, generally speaking, in Rifts you can't use two-handed weapons paired so you probably aren't supposed to use them one-handed.
He could take his shield hand off the sword to parry with the shield.
He also carries a one-handed weapon, which he could use with his shield.

[Axelmania]

Dude it's the cover. No RPG rules let you play the guy on the cover.

I'm allowed to play the Cernun Mystic or Gigante or Knight on Rifts England though

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Generally speaking, unless we're talking something small enough that it wouldn't really be classified as a true shield (like a buckler), you cant wear a shield on your arm and then use that arm to hold a weapon.

Shields dont work that way. They dont let you move your arm in directions necessary to properly use weapons.

Also, a lot of shields aren't worn on the arm - theyre held by a centerpoint. Really depends on the type, but i'd hazard that its at least 60% that dont strap to the arm at all. It isnt until much later or much earlier in history that strapped shields were prevalent (greek and roman shields often strapped to the wielder, sometimes even around the torso, and it became prevalent again in the later middle ages, particularly among mounted shield-bearers).

The guy on the cover wouldn't even be able to swing that sword in a lot of directions (or maneuver it into proper parrying positions).

I know ive brough it up before, as well, but by and large you dont "parry" with a shield. You hold it in place and only move it when absolutely necessary. In a lot of cases, you still dont move your arm - you tend to move your entire body instead, if you need to move the shield (twisting your hips or shifting your footing) to spare your arm pointless fatigue.

[Axelmania]

by and large you dont "parry" with a shield. You hold it in place and only move it when absolutely necessary. In a lot of cases, you still dont move your arm - you tend to move your entire body instead, if you need to move the shield (twisting your hips or shifting your footing) to spare your arm pointless fatigue.

I'm still waiting for Palladium/GURPS to get shields right. I don't think any RPG has really done them justice.

[Shark_Force]

you may find this relevant to your interests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBznh9xCt7E

(that's Matt Easton, who owns the "Scholagladiatoria" youtube channel, talking about the use of two-handed weapons with shields being something that apparently actually happened, contrary to what he had previous thought on the matter).

precisely *how* they were used is not quite as clear, but it was a thing.

[lather]

Generally speaking, unless we're talking something small enough that it wouldn't really be classified as a true shield (like a buckler), you cant wear a shield on your arm and then use that arm to hold a weapon.

Or unless we're talking about Rifts.

[Axelmania]

you may find this relevant to your interests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBznh9xCt7E

(that's Matt Easton, who owns the "Scholagladiatoria" youtube channel, talking about the use of two-handed weapons with shields being something that apparently actually happened, contrary to what he had previous thought on the matter).

precisely *how* they were used is not quite as clear, but it was a thing.

My guess is you just hold your weapon back at the ready and use stepping/pivoting to take a blow on your shield (maybe even bash an incoming weapon) and then immediately counterattack.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

you may find this relevant to your interests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBznh9xCt7E

(that's Matt Easton, who owns the "Scholagladiatoria" youtube channel, talking about the use of two-handed weapons with shields being something that apparently actually happened, contrary to what he had previous thought on the matter).

precisely *how* they were used is not quite as clear, but it was a thing.

Depends on the weapon as well.

You could maybe do it with some polearms (anything that is primarily thrusts and doesnt require overhand chopping) and with a small enough shield (a Celtic Targe might be small enough) to use with a large weapon, as it is lightweight and not really larger in diameter than your forearm, so it wouldnt necessarily get in the way of your joints and bending in ways you need to.

It would still require some weird handwork, and the straps would have to be SUPER tight to prevent it from rotating on your arm. And that would come with all sorts of other potential issues (a lot more likely to suffer a broken arm from transfered force, cant throw it off easily if it is damaged, etc).

Now, later on (late middle ages - the era of heavy armor) a lot of knights might have their shields literally bolted to their armor, making such concerns a lot smaller. And the shields themselves could often be very odd shapes indeed.

Most of the common infantry shields, though... no way. Theyre too big (extend well past your hand), too unwieldy (not too heavy per se, but clumsy and not suited to rapid lateral movement), and frequently are actually grasped by your hand, not strapped to your arm.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Generally speaking, unless we're talking something small enough that it wouldn't really be classified as a true shield (like a buckler), you cant wear a shield on your arm and then use that arm to hold a weapon.

Or unless we're talking about Rifts.

Im not aware of any rule in Rifts that lets you use a weapon in your shield-hand, so.... no.

I think a lot of it also comes from people not realizing just how big most shields really are.

An example, a Targe is only about 18-20" in diameter, or about 314" in area.

A typical Viking shield (common until the mid middle-ages) is 34" in diameter or so - or almost 910" in area - almost THREE TIMES the size of a Targe.

Itll cover a person from chin to knee.

You aren't wielding a weapon in that hand, i assure you.

(Its also held by a centerpoint, not strapped to your arm).

A heater shield is about the same size in terms of surface area (but shaped differently) and IS usually strapped to your arm, but in odd ways that would prevent you from using a weapon in that hand (your arm ends up at an angle, or straight up and down when mounted)

A kite shield is even bigger (1300"+ in area), and is usually both strapped (around the shoulders when on foot, at an angle on the arm when mounted) and centerpointed (for when on foot).

Greek and Roman era shields were both strapped to the arm and around the body (because they were so god-awful heavy in the case of the Greek era shields, and for stability in the shield wall in Roman shields). Roman shields often had centerpoints for when fighting in smaller units or after the wall had broken.

[lather]

Generally speaking, unless we're talking something small enough that it wouldn't really be classified as a true shield (like a buckler), you cant wear a shield on your arm and then use that arm to hold a weapon.

Or unless we're talking about Rifts.

Im not aware of any rule in Rifts that lets you use a weapon in your shield-hand, so.... no.

I think a lot of it also comes from people not realizing just how big most shields really are.

An example, a Targe is only about 18-20" in diameter, or about 314" in area.

A typical Viking shield (common until the mid middle-ages) is 34" in diameter or so - or almost 910" in area - almost THREE TIMES the size of a Targe.

Itll cover a person from chin to knee.

You aren't wielding a weapon in that hand, i assure you.

(Its also held by a centerpoint, not strapped to your arm).

A heater shield is about the same size in terms of surface area (but shaped differently) and IS usually strapped to your arm, but in odd ways that would prevent you from using a weapon in that hand (your arm ends up at an angle, or straight up and down when mounted)

A kite shield is even bigger (1300"+ in area), and is usually both strapped (around the shoulders when on foot, at an angle on the arm when mounted) and centerpointed (for when on foot).

Greek and Roman era shields were both strapped to the arm and around the body (because they were so god-awful heavy in the case of the Greek era shields, and for stability in the shield wall in Roman shields). Roman shields often had centerpoints for when fighting in smaller units or after the wall had broken.

My point is that no rule about holding weapons in your shield hand doesn't mean there's a rule for holding weapons in your shield hand. It's a decision for the Game Master to make. You being a shield subject matter expert doesn't alter the basic fact that it's a decision for the Game Master to make, as useful as your knowledge may be in making that decision.