Titan and bionics

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
(SHIFTY)
Adventurer
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:27 pm

Titan and bionics

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

Can The Titan Giant receive bionics? It says they can be Headhunters under available Occs but being a supernatural creature, I did not think they could receive bionics.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Axelmania »

Being supernatural doesn't prevent you from getting bionics. Brodkil are notably Sub-Demons capable of getting bionics, as are the Daemonix.

Their 4D6/minute healing rate dwarfs the Brodkil's though, it does give a sense of "when creatures heal this fast they'd probably reject bionics" but I don't know if there's actually a hard line for that.
User avatar
Orin J.
Adventurer
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: a west coast

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Orin J. »

Axelmania wrote:Being supernatural doesn't prevent you from getting bionics. Brodkil are notably Sub-Demons capable of getting bionics, as are the Daemonix.

Their 4D6/minute healing rate dwarfs the Brodkil's though, it does give a sense of "when creatures heal this fast they'd probably reject bionics" but I don't know if there's actually a hard line for that.


i thought the "hard line" for flesh and blood stuff was having bio-regeneration. if you have that, you reject all implants.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Id say no, since they Bio-regenerate. The regeneration would force out any implants and regrow severed limbs.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
Curbludgeon
Hero
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Comment: They/Them

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

Brodkil's Bio-Regeneration is measured per hour, while daemonix are measured per 24 hours. Titans are measured per minute. Malvoren are per minute but are clearly a niche case. I haven't looked through everything to find other examples but I'd eyeball it at bio-regenerating per minute species can't get bionics, while ones slower than that can. If there's a specific rule I'd like to hear about it.
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Shark_Force »

bionics sourcebook says any bio-regeneration is sufficient, with a special exception for gargoyles and brodkil (there is a default rate of recovering MDC, something like 2d6 per 24 hours, so i'm not sure if daemonix even *have* bio-regeneration because the SoT series was something a friend owned before they moved away).

i'd go more along the lines of anything that can regenerate limbs and such rather than any specific values, personally. not all creatures with bio-regenerate specify though, iirc.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Axelmania »

Orin J. wrote:i thought the "hard line" for flesh and blood stuff was having bio-regeneration. if you have that, you reject all implants.

No, see for example page 143 the revised sourcebook for Brodkil

"bio-regenerates 2D6 M.D.C. per hour."
"Most want partial reconstruction, never full conver­sion . The most common types of bionic features include one or two arms"

One key factor is "Cannot regenerate lost limbs." I would be fine with a GM saying that's grounds for rejection.

Anything else which can't regrow limbs and heals same/slower than Brodkil should be able to get them IMO.

If they heal faster than Brodkil, even if they can't regrow limbs, it could be GM's option to make them off-limits.

Unless... does anyone know any species who heals faster than 2D6/hour who CAN explicitly get implants?

*checks Daemonix in SOT* not them, they heal on a DAILY rate. A little better than the 2D6/day default (usually 4D6+) but still pathetic compared to Brodkil.

A good guideline would be if we can find a species who doesn't regen limbs, explicitly rejects cybernetics/bionics, and heals faster than Brodkil. They could establish a guideline for other species.

The Brodkil's description actually seems to imply that some species, rather than rejecting bionics, would be able to keep them BUT it would have negative effects on them:

    Because the Brodkil have no supernatural, psionic, or magic powers,
    they can benefit from bionic weapons and implants
    without ill effect
    other than losing the ability to tum invisible.

It sounds like there are some who could still "benefit from bionic weapons" but who would lose MORE than just 1 power, maybe MANY powers. Perhaps some creatures that have many powers but slow healing, like changelings?

Shark_Force wrote:bionics sourcebook says any bio-regeneration is sufficient, with a special exception for gargoyles and brodkil

That's not how I'm reading it. Pg 61 says:
    creatures who possess natural powers of bio-regeneration or other heightened recuperative abilities sel­dom have any need for artificial limbs because they grow them back in short order.
    In fact, their natural healing and bio-regenerative powers reject artificial implants and prosthet­ics

This is clearly referring to the subset of creatures who regrow limbs, not ANY creature with "bio-regeneration", because that would include the Brodkil...
    Brodkil sub-demons and a handful of oth­ers are rare exceptions to this rule, and only because their own supernatural abilities are so minor.

The basis of the "Brodkil exception" is clearly because they don't regrow limbs. The "handful of others" would be the other bio-regenerators who also don't regrow limbs.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Id say no, since they Bio-regenerate. The regeneration would force out any implants and regrow severed limbs.

No amount of bio-regen should regrow limbs unless it says it does, and I don't think Titans have that ability.
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

(SHIFTY) wrote:Can The Titan Giant receive bionics? It says they can be Headhunters under available Occs but being a supernatural creature, I did not think they could receive bionics.


RCB1r does answer this directly in the text at the end of the first paragraph on pg98.

Rifts Conversio Book 1 Revised pg98 wrote:The Titan's natural bio-regenerative powers reject cybernetic implants, bionics and most other forms of augmentation.


What likely happens is that they can take the OCC, but they don't get the implants per say (extra credits or gear?).
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Axelmania »

ShadowLogan wrote:RCB1r does answer this directly in the text at the end of the first paragraph on pg98.

Rifts Conversio Book 1 Revised pg98 wrote:The Titan's natural bio-regenerative powers reject cybernetic implants, bionics and most other forms of augmentation.


What likely happens is that they can take the OCC, but they don't get the implants per say (extra credits or gear?).


Nice catch! I didn't notice that the first time around I think because I was looking for a Cybernetics/Bionics section as many races often had but forgot they often squirrel away that info in the OCC section...

...and I was staring at 98 thinking "I only see a goblin" and kept looking further and it took me way too long to figure that Titans began on 97 and 98 was concluding them...

So anyway since Titans AFAIK don't regrow limbs, they set a great precedent for the type of bio-regeneration levels which should make implants/replacements impossible despite that.

So my policy would be (unless we can find a slower healer who also can't get implants) that if you heal 4D6 or more per minute OR you regrow limbs, you can't get them.

I notice with CBrevised in upgrading many of the "hundreds of SDC" giants to minor MDC (but that's not a retcon, they were always that strong, amirite?) that they actually added some healing notes for ...

87 list the Algor at 2D6/day which is consistent with the standard in the original conversion book.
88 list the Cyclops at 2D4/day which is SLOWER
90 and 91 and 93 and 94 and 96 list none for the Jotan and Gigante and Minotaur and Nimro and Rahu-Man

Now I'm trying to remember of the 2D6/day got reprinted in revised... thought it did but not sure.

Which makes me wonder... if it was... and a slower rate per day is listed... should the 2D4 replace the 2D6, or should Cyclops heal heal 2D6+2D4? In which case they'd be better than the J/G/M/NR and the Algor as well (4D6 per day) rather than tied.

IE to explain why a rate would be listed for Algor but not the other 5 who heal 2D6, unless healing listed under Natural Abilities was ADDITIVE with standard rules.

IMO the additive approach is nice. It never says to ignore standard rates and REPLACE them after all, even if many people operate that way.
User avatar
(SHIFTY)
Adventurer
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

ShadowLogan wrote:
(SHIFTY) wrote:Can The Titan Giant receive bionics? It says they can be Headhunters under available Occs but being a supernatural creature, I did not think they could receive bionics.


RCB1r does answer this directly in the text at the end of the first paragraph on pg98.

Rifts Conversio Book 1 Revised pg98 wrote:The Titan's natural bio-regenerative powers reject cybernetic implants, bionics and most other forms of augmentation.


What likely happens is that they can take the OCC, but they don't get the implants per say (extra credits or gear?).



Ah my apologies. I did not see that part. :oops:
User avatar
ITWastrel
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:49 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by ITWastrel »

I allow implants on any creature who meets the following criteria.

    1: Phenotype compatability. Size and shape of the original creature, bone structure (or lack thereof), and similar logical similarities to the intended recipient of the cybernetics. Shapeshifters, plasmic beings, and beings who are strongly removed from humanity (insect people, mineral or plant people, energy people, or similar) are straight out.

    2: Limited or no bio-regeneration. My house rule is, if you will regain even one (1) point of HP in a single melee round, your body will reject the implants even during surgery, making implantation itself impossible. Any creature with the ability to regenerate body parts, fingers, toes, eyes or limbs, can never recieve implants. This does not apply to on-demand regeneration, such as the ability of Crazies to regenerate by trance, or to psychics who can turn on and off their ability at will.

    3: Not a creature of magic. Straight up, no dragons, faeries, or sphinxes. (Though now that I type that I am suddenly consumed with the idea of cybernetically enhanced mercenary faeries, 6 inches tall, cyber eyes, and combat limbs...)

    4: Not a creature who depends on a supernatural or psychic ability or power to survive or thrive. Remembering that more than a couple implants or a single limb will destroy your psychic or supernatural abilities, any creature who depends on those abilities, such as a need to feed on PPE, should consider bionics to be suicidal. There's a reason psi-Stalkers can't be borg, they would starve.

Aside from the very specific text in the Titan description, these creatures fail at tests 1 and 2. Aside from that, a titan would never want bionics. If you had the ability to teleport yourself at will, would you ever give that up for a cybernetic limb with a laser in it? Frack no!

Note: An exception to #1 can be made for custom parts, IF the only problem is size or shape of body parts. A large eye is not much different than a small one, as long as the recipient is still flesh and blood, and biologically compatible with the device. Modified or custom cybernetics can be designed, made, or found, but will be much more expensive (3-10 times book price) and will not be available at most body chop shops.
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by Shark_Force »

honestly, most cybernetics and bionics aren't really that great if you don't go all-in on them.

i mean, having an arm that is unusually strong is nice and all, but seeing as how your spine and legs can still only lift so much, that's still somewhat limited in usefulness. having a leg that can run 10 times as fast as your other leg isn't going to do you much good either. and having one limb with superior PP will come in handy occasionally, but isn't nearly as good as having high PP everywhere.

and many bionics are of questionable value just in general. i mean, weapons that you can conceal might come in handy purely for the concealment factor, but let's be honest: most of the bionic weapon systems are not better than standard weapons, and in many cases are much worse than high end conventional weapons (like, the lasers you can get built into your body are about as good as an average laser rifle, but compared to a good plasma ejector or a wilk's pulse rifle they're nothing to write home about).

likewise, most of the sensors, i mean, it's all very nice to have something built into your body, but it isn't like infrared or even multi-optic goggles don't exist, and if you need to check someone's body temperature it isn't *that* hard to get your hands on a thermometer that will surely cost less than implanting one into your body just in case you ever need it.

so frankly, i am not at all surprised that many creatures would rather not get bionics even if it only costs them comparatively minor powers. if you aren't going to go full conversion, it probably just isn't worth it. personally, i think the brodkil are making a terrible trade when they implant something... the ability to go invisible is much more likely to be useful than having a clock display built into your eyeball. (that said, i'm totally ok with assuming that they do it because they think bionics are cool, even if that isn't entirely practical... i mean, if everyone you know can turn invisible, i guess invisibility would just seem commonplace).
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Titan and bionics

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I take the boinics given to a head hunter as an optional attachment item.

in otherwords, they get the bionics but they can just be an 'equipment or trade item' if the player doesn't want them to be a 'replacment part' item.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”