witch's pact questions

[rem1093]

Don't know if this was ever posted. But can you get a witch pact with a God of Light, or a Dragon? Also can you get the Pact without changing OCC.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Don't know if this was ever posted. But can you get a witch pact with a God of Light, or a Dragon? Also can you get the Pact without changing OCC.

No, Sort of, and No.

No, Only demon/deevil lords, Gods of Darkness, or alien intelligences can make witch patchs.
Styphon the Black is a dragon-god of Darkness, so you could in theory make a witch pact with him, although you can't normally make witch pacts with dragons who are not dragon-gods, no.
And no, Witch is it's own OCC, any making of pact automatically freezes your previous OCC.

[glitterboy2098]

Witches are limited to evil pacts, as Nekira spelled out. the OCC is similarly limited to evil alignments.

Shifters on the other hand can make deals with gods of light and non-evil alien intelligence for power. but the two OCC's can't use each other's options.

[Mack]

This reminds me... I was going to write-up a "good witch" OCC. Same concept, but bound to a God of Light. And for extra fun, the character would get bonuses based on their alignment. Principled would be stronger than Scrupulous, which would be stronger than Unprincipled, etc. Thus the God of Light could grant powers to a Selfish aligned character and over time entice them to a better one.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'll have to dig it up, but is there any advantage to the 'Witch' over say the Priest OCC from Conversion Book 2?


Daniel Stoker

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'll have to dig it up, but is there any advantage to the 'Witch' over say the Priest OCC from Conversion Book 2?


Daniel Stoker

Witches are considerably more powerful, and depending on which pact they chose, vastly more powerful. a Pact of Union basically turns the witch into an Avatar of the God/Demon Lord/Alien Intelligence with massive amounts of MDC, PPE, and access to every single spell, circle, ward that that being knows at a fraction of that beings caster level, all in addition to gaining several hundred MDC, supernatural strength, and a variety of other bonuses.

[rem1093]

Witches are limited to evil pacts, as Nekira spelled out. the OCC is similarly limited to evil alignments.

Shifters on the other hand can make deals with gods of light and non-evil alien intelligence for power. but the two OCC's can't use each other's options.

There is also the Elemental and the Cosmo Knights, both of witch make pack. One with the Elemental plane/ intelligence, and the other with the Forge.

This reminds me... I was going to write-up a "good witch" OCC. Same concept, but bound to a God of Light. And for extra fun, the character would get bonuses based on their alignment. Principled would be stronger than Scrupulous, which would be stronger than Unprincipled, etc. Thus the God of Light could grant powers to a Selfish aligned character and over time entice them to a better one.

I was thinking of not just a witch, why couldn't they be used by others? Think about it, a young knight vows to stop some warlord that attacked Thors temple, so Thor makes a pack with the knight.

[Axelmania]

Witches are limited to evil pacts,
as Nekira spelled out. the OCC is similarly limited to evil alignments.

The funny thing is this doesn't have to apply to their masters, unless Anarchist Splynncryth is unable to have witches.

[Library Ogre]

See, I view making witches as a skill... a relatively inexpensive Deific Power (qv Dragons and Gods) that most full-on Gods don't bother with, but it's all that some lesser deities and powerful creatures can manage (such as greater demons).

As for relative power of witches v. priests, I tend to view witches as somewhat akin to Saints, compared to regular priests. If you follow the mythology, regular priests have all sorts of powers... casting out demons, giving blessings, etc.. Saints, though, are manifestations of their deity's power. A saint... or a witch... is the next best thing to being a divine being yourself.

With the Gift of Power, you are a goddamn Superhero. Super-strong. Super-tough. Shoot Laser Beams out of your Eyes. Fart Lightning bolts. The Gift of Power attracts those who want power, but also those who HAVE power and want more.
With the Gift of Magic, you're instantly a sorcerer supreme. I think it's probably the weakest of the pacts, simply because it doesn't load you up with spells at the outset.
With the Gift of Union... you're not entirely you anymore. Sure, you've got the power, but you're a drone operating on automatic... at any point, the boss might flip a switch and have you doing something else.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Witches are limited to evil pacts, as Nekira spelled out. the OCC is similarly limited to evil alignments.

Shifters on the other hand can make deals with gods of light and non-evil alien intelligence for power. but the two OCC's can't use each other's options.

There is also the Elemental and the Cosmo Knights, both of witch make pack. One with the Elemental plane/ intelligence, and the other with the Forge.

Warlocks do not make a pact with an Elemental Intelligence. They may make individual deals with specific Elementals, from time to time, but they arent anywhere near the same thing as a witch-pact.

Cosmo-Knights, also, do not make "a pact" with the Cosmic Forge. IT chooses THEM as worthy and empowers them. They may be able to not accept such empowerment (the actual canon and lore dont say), but it is nothing like a Witch's Pact (which is almost always initiated by the Witch themselves because they want more power - purely selfish reasons).

This reminds me... I was going to write-up a "good witch" OCC. Same concept, but bound to a God of Light. And for extra fun, the character would get bonuses based on their alignment. Principled would be stronger than Scrupulous, which would be stronger than Unprincipled, etc. Thus the God of Light could grant powers to a Selfish aligned character and over time entice them to a better one.

I was thinking of not just a witch, why couldn't they be used by others? Think about it, a young knight vows to stop some warlord that attacked Thors temple, so Thor makes a pack with the knight.

This is one of those things that D&D (before 3rd Edition/d20, at least) was strong on: not all sides do everything the same. (Which is why the entire concept of an "Anti-Paladin/Blackguard" was anathema in old-school D&D). The Forces of Evil, in this case, do things like make pacts with overly ambitious people that corrupt them and they become witches. The Powers of Light dont do that. They expect their champions to do for themselves, for the most part (the Cosmic Forge being a notable exception, but then again, the Three Galaxies is an exceptional place), and aren't really interested in just giving people power. They dont really want ambitious power-seekers on their side anyway.

Priests serve the Gods of Light well enough; they dont really see the need to do Witch-like pacts, though they will occasionally make smaller pacts/deals with Shifters and the like.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Except Armageddon Unlimited contradicts that, where the Crusader of Light is explictly a deal-making Empowered-By-Good-Deities Mega Hero.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Except Armageddon Unlimited contradicts that, where the Crusader of Light is explictly a deal-making Empowered-By-Good-Deities Mega Hero.

I wasn't aware Armageddon Unlimited was a Rifts book.

Perhaps... because it isn't?

Despite the tenacity with which people on this forum insist on trying to conflate all Palladium games as the same game... they are not. There are differences, on purpose, and the settings are wildly different. What applies in one game does not necessarily apply in another. In fact, by default, they do not, unless the rules for that game also support that. Thats why anything from other Palladium Games is at the GMs sole discretion - because they require adaptation and changes to work.

There could be a Palladium Game where every single PC is a divinely-powered super-dude, and it wouldn't change Rifts in one iota.

Because they aren't the same game, same setting, nothing.

Just like the World of Darkness (pre New-WoD and now, the recent releases which discarded nWoD and went back to the original) games use the same core mechanics and game system but are not remotely compatible with one another without heavy conversion, and their stories aren't compatible (in Mage, Vampires are merely a supernatural annoyance/menace that is dealt with when it crops up, but the Technocracy really rules the world; in Vampire, however, Mages are treated as fringe annoyance and Vampire Elders are the ones that run the world by dominating governments, etc), the various Palladium games are separate games. Their rules differ slightly, the settings aren't always compatible (almost never, really), and what is true in one setting is not true in another by default.

[Axelmania]

I wasn't aware Armageddon Unlimited was a Rifts book.

Perhaps... because it isn't?

HU is certainly the most prominently featured title (only one on the front cover) but page 1 refers to it as:

sourcebook for Rifts, Phase World, Heroes Unlimited, The Palladium Fantasy RPG and the entire Megaverse

So what's in Armageddon definitely applies to Rifts as well.

That said, I'm not really sure what Nekira meant, because pg 52 of Crusader of Light explicitly says "There is
no pact to be signed. The hero is accepted at his word and the powers are bestowed freely and in good faith."

Nekira were you maybe confusing elements of that of pg 48's "Corrupted Good" ? This does explicitly involve a pact, but it's with evil creatures.

Here we do have an example where you can start off good when making a pact but it is a battle to stay that way as RP-wise you will be tempted to slide into selfish/evil.

Sort of a less hard version of the Witch OCC rule where you can begin good but the OCC change forces you to be evil by 1st level.

If using the OCC switching rules, I'd figure that might take the form of (since you need to earn 3 xp levels to switch to a magic OCC)
1) drop to unprincipled when you freeze your OCC and are earning XP in the level 1 bracket
2) drop to anarchist when you reach the level 2 bracket
3) become evil when you reach the level 3 bracket and thus graduate to being level 1

[rem1093]

Witches are limited to evil pacts, as Nekira spelled out. the OCC is similarly limited to evil alignments.

Shifters on the other hand can make deals with gods of light and non-evil alien intelligence for power. but the two OCC's can't use each other's options.

There is also the Elemental and the Cosmo Knights, both of witch make pack. One with the Elemental plane/ intelligence, and the other with the Forge.

Warlocks do not make a pact with an Elemental Intelligence. They may make individual deals with specific Elementals, from time to time, but they arent anywhere near the same thing as a witch-pact.

Cosmo-Knights, also, do not make "a pact" with the Cosmic Forge. IT chooses THEM as worthy and empowers them. They may be able to not accept such empowerment (the actual canon and lore dont say), but it is nothing like a Witch's Pact (which is almost always initiated by the Witch themselves because they want more power - purely selfish reasons).

i don't see how its much different then the pact of Magic. All your spells come from the Intelligence and you gain special bonuses because of the link to that element.

This reminds me... I was going to write-up a "good witch" OCC. Same concept, but bound to a God of Light. And for extra fun, the character would get bonuses based on their alignment. Principled would be stronger than Scrupulous, which would be stronger than Unprincipled, etc. Thus the God of Light could grant powers to a Selfish aligned character and over time entice them to a better one.

I was thinking of not just a witch, why couldn't they be used by others? Think about it, a young knight vows to stop some warlord that attacked Thors temple, so Thor makes a pack with the knight.

This is one of those things that D&D (before 3rd Edition/d20, at least) was strong on: not all sides do everything the same. (Which is why the entire concept of an "Anti-Paladin/Blackguard" was anathema in old-school D&D). The Forces of Evil, in this case, do things like make pacts with overly ambitious people that corrupt them and they become witches. The Powers of Light dont do that. They expect their champions to do for themselves, for the most part (the Cosmic Forge being a notable exception, but then again, the Three Galaxies is an exceptional place), and aren't really interested in just giving people power. They dont really want ambitious power-seekers on their side anyway.

Priests serve the Gods of Light well enough; they dont really see the need to do Witch-like pacts, though they will occasionally make smaller pacts/deals with Shifters and the like.

But you also have the The Warriors of Valhalla,who are normal non-magic OCC that get special bonuses , (such as impervious to fire, increased SDC, ext) that looks like some of the gifts from the Pact of power.