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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:58 pm
  

D-Bee

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Does anyone happen to know how much the water level rose in Lake Ontario after the Cataclysm? I'm planning to map out The Relic in southwestern Ontario, and I need to figure out how the coastline has changed since the Coming of the Rifts. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:10 pm
  

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Only the coasts are mentioned and they were hit with massive tidal waves. The water level though wouldn't stay at elevated levels though unless both polar ice caps melted. IF not I can see the water levels around the earth in most places returning to pre-rifts conditions. Maybe the atlantic ocean is an exception because of atlantis, otherwise using the present water levels would be the easiest thing to do.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:45 pm
  

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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
Only the coasts are mentioned and they were hit with massive tidal waves. The water level though wouldn't stay at elevated levels though unless both polar ice caps melted. IF not I can see the water levels around the earth in most places returning to pre-rifts conditions. Maybe the atlantic ocean is an exception because of atlantis, otherwise using the present water levels would be the easiest thing to do.


Particularly that far "inland". There's actually little to no reason the Great Lakes would over-flood their borders. The water displaced in the oceans (Atlantis wouldn't just affect the sea levels in the Atlantic, as that displaced water has to go SOMEWHERE, and can and does pass through to the other oceans; thats why you see coasts on the Pacific Rim also altered heavily) doesn't really have any way to get into the Great Lakes en masse. It would inundate the coasts of the continents first (path of least resistance)... which it did.

From what we can tell of the map (those seen in the books) the coastlines of Michigan and the other areas that border the Great Lakes seem largely unchanged.

Edit:

Also, IIRC, the Island Kingdom of Montreal is basically unaltered from present-day Montreal, so that would seem to lend credence to the "the Great Lakes are mostly the same" - at least, the same +300 years of weather and the like.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:20 pm
  

D-Bee

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The thing is, though, if you compare the map of the Great Lakes region on page 52 of World Book 33 with a modern-day map of the same area, the increased water level of the Great Lakes is apparent. Page 18 of the Black Market sourcebook also mentions "the increased water levels since the Coming of the Rifts" while discussing the secret Lake Run smugglers' route. I was just wondering if any specific information on the topic had been published somewhere that I'm not aware of.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:49 pm
  

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Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:39 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.



The great lakes are also highly variable due to winter evaporation. If you have a few hard freeze years with long lasting ice cover you generally see lake levels rise. That has been playing a large factor in how high the water levels have been over the past few years when lake michigan was at almost record lows a decade ago. I don't think the stuff that was raising ocean levels would cause much change but a couple decades of basically nuclear winter levels of badness could have seriously boosted the depth of the great lakes.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.


Not to mention the presence of a subcontinent-sized landmass (Atlantis) where for millenia there was none displacing a lot of water if that stuff wasn't rifted somewhere else.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:04 pm
  

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And if memory serves, there were some tectonic shifts that affected the various coastlines. (Which is a convenient way to say don't think about it too hard.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:45 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
And if memory serves, there were some tectonic shifts that affected the various coastlines. (Which is a convenient way to say don't think about it too hard.)


Yeah, in one of my own games i made it so that a chunk of Central & South America and a number of isles enclosed around the Caribbean Sea (like Europe & North Africa around the Mediterranean) due to volcanic activity, tectonic shifts and other stuff.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:54 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.


Not to mention the presence of a subcontinent-sized landmass (Atlantis) where for millenia there was none displacing a lot of water if that stuff wasn't rifted somewhere else.


Another good point, which I am ashamed to have forgotten. Atlantis displaces a lot of water.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:02 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.


Not to mention the presence of a subcontinent-sized landmass (Atlantis) where for millenia there was none displacing a lot of water if that stuff wasn't rifted somewhere else.


Another good point, which I am ashamed to have forgotten. Atlantis displaces a lot of water.


Nah, it happens, while implied here and there the subject of Atlantis' return connection to the chaange in sea levels has never been fully stated or explored afaik. Between us, sometimes i feel like the people making the maps in the books themselves forget that... :lol:

Because the rise of sea levels would most certainly affect more than the coastal areas, due to the backlash hitting river deltas and consequently rising the level of many rivers and certain lake systems within them.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:42 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.


Not to mention the presence of a subcontinent-sized landmass (Atlantis) where for millenia there was none displacing a lot of water if that stuff wasn't rifted somewhere else.


Another good point, which I am ashamed to have forgotten. Atlantis displaces a lot of water.


Nah, it happens, while implied here and there the subject of Atlantis' return connection to the chaange in sea levels has never been fully stated or explored afaik. Between us, sometimes i feel like the people making the maps in the books themselves forget that... :lol:

Because the rise of sea levels would most certainly affect more than the coastal areas, due to the backlash hitting river deltas and consequently rising the level of many rivers and certain lake systems within them.

Most of what you are describing here would be issues for Chaos Earth but in Rifts, with 300 years time for the levels to settle most of the changes would be in coastal areas.

The other thing we have to consider is how much of the coast lines were reinforced with MDC barriers to hold back sea level rise in the 21st century due to climate change. I mean if there is a Miami or New York city in 2098 they put in some significant barriers which might blunt some of those early tidal waves from Atlantis.

One last thing to remember and that is if the story needs a place to survive then it will survive.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:58 pm
  

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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
Only the coasts are mentioned and they were hit with massive tidal waves. The water level though wouldn't stay at elevated levels though unless both polar ice caps melted. IF not I can see the water levels around the earth in most places returning to pre-rifts conditions. Maybe the atlantic ocean is an exception because of atlantis, otherwise using the present water levels would be the easiest thing to do.

Why would you think the addition of Atlantis would only change the water level in the Atlantic? You realize the seas are connected and an entire continent isn't just some iceburg.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:38 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Bear in mind, you may have a different reason for water rise than melted ice... you might have the seas rise as alien water from alien worlds pours in. If there's a net input, water levels go up. While I believe Underseas says they don't usually pass water, I don't see a reason that some might not.


Not to mention the presence of a subcontinent-sized landmass (Atlantis) where for millenia there was none displacing a lot of water if that stuff wasn't rifted somewhere else.


Another good point, which I am ashamed to have forgotten. Atlantis displaces a lot of water.


Nah, it happens, while implied here and there the subject of Atlantis' return connection to the chaange in sea levels has never been fully stated or explored afaik. Between us, sometimes i feel like the people making the maps in the books themselves forget that... :lol:

Because the rise of sea levels would most certainly affect more than the coastal areas, due to the backlash hitting river deltas and consequently rising the level of many rivers and certain lake systems within them.

Most of what you are describing here would be issues for Chaos Earth but in Rifts, with 300 years time for the levels to settle most of the changes would be in coastal areas.


Most, but definitely not all - remember, it's a general rise of the general water level, not a tide that comes and goes. Without some factor to interfere like glaciations or some of the water being D-sshifted elsewhere, ocean level should settle at a higher level than before, meaning changes to the form and width of the rivers that connect with them, what would affect a number of cities as the margins of any rivers within them changed and swallowed some land along the way. Not all places will be affected equally, but still a factor in the changed geography of post-apocalyptic times.

Warshield73 wrote:
The other thing we have to consider is how much of the coast lines were reinforced with MDC barriers to hold back sea level rise in the 21st century due to climate change. I mean if there is a Miami or New York city in 2098 they put in some significant barriers which might blunt some of those early tidal waves from Atlantis.

One last thing to remember and that is if the story needs a place to survive then it will survive.


True, handwaving is undeniably a factor and GMs have leeway to tweak stuff to their preferrences while ignoring details - Madhaven would be between improbable to impossible otherwise, for example.

Random aside - has anything beeen said about Panama and its canal in Rifts books?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:52 pm
  

Hero

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look at https://www.netstate.com/states/geograp ... apscom.htm

if you say that the oceans rose ~300ft the new shoreline would be at least halfway, if not all the way to austin texas for example.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:23 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
[
Warshield73 wrote:
The other thing we have to consider is how much of the coast lines were reinforced with MDC barriers to hold back sea level rise in the 21st century due to climate change. I mean if there is a Miami or New York city in 2098 they put in some significant barriers which might blunt some of those early tidal waves from Atlantis.

One last thing to remember and that is if the story needs a place to survive then it will survive.


True, handwaving is undeniably a factor and GMs have leeway to tweak stuff to their preferrences while ignoring details - Madhaven would be between improbable to impossible otherwise, for example.


In the arena of handwaving...
We know that the Palladium didn't have access to any ocean level simulation maps, and that's the REAL reason why the maps they made don't match up well.
We also know that Palladium has a decent amount of Rule of Cool behind many of their decisions, and they'd likely have no problem deviating from more accurate maps in favor of "But we WANT Madhaven to still be a thing."

Fortunately, the Cataclysm gives us a LOT of leeway, because there's so much going ON with the planet for the past x hundred years of the game world.
Atlantis returned and displaced a lot of water... but also countless rifts are open across the globe at any given time, and most rifts seem to work both ways. It's hardly implausible for the rifts to have removed much of the surplus ocean water, enough to compensate for the appearance of Atlantis.
Entire cities were removed from the face of Rifts Earth during the Cataclysm, and there's nothing saying that there wasn't (for example) a truly massive amount of sea water that was likewise taken away.
For that matter, the world as we know it was destroyed, so any number of events or effects during the cataclysm that would otherwise be incredibly noteworthy might well be undiscovered by modern Rifts Earth. For example, it's entirely possible that a Rift opened up underground, and something came through, something big enough that it pushed the ground level up significantly higher than it was before the Cataclysm. Maybe it was a massive amount of earth or stone, even magma. Maybe it was an Old One who still lies trapped and dormant.
Maybe it was an unfathomable number of floopers, or Jolly Ranchers, or whatever.
And there's any number of other weird things, like the Shifting Lands, which play with geography temporarily.
Any amount of any kind of mass could have been taken away and/or added to the world.
Hell, for all we know, Rifts Earth is now hollow or something.

There's more than enough room to say "Palladium's maps are accurate; computer simulations simply can't account for all the weird stuff that happened," and/or to justify any changes one wants to make to the land or sea.
:D

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