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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:31 pm
  

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Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Why are the Sunaj the only ones that have done this. It seems that the Splugorth would have figured this one out a long time ago. Why isn't it known among regular True Atlanteans? You gotta figure that anything that gives them an edge against monsters would be something worth looking into.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:49 am
  

D-Bee

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HarleeKnight wrote:
Why are the Sunaj the only ones that have done this.


Because it would brutally cripple them as T-men. The Master Psychic Sunaj Assassin only has 7 tattoos (JUST enough to turn him MDC), and gets far fewer as they level up as well. And they lose about half their OCC skills.

Theyre basically a just-barely-buffed Master Psychic with a minor side of Tattoos. (As it says to just have them have the powers of a Master Psychic PCC)

It would be completely unsuitable for an Undead Slayer and not make him even remotely better at his actual job (hunting Undead). The Undead Slayer starts with (at a minimum) TWENTY Tattoos. (And thats counting several of their tattoos which are combos as "one" since the new rule in Secrets says that they only count as one if they are all done at once, so flaming arrows with wings, etc still only count as one). Otherwise its more like 24.

So, basically, you'd have Undead Slayers with the powers of say, a Mind Melter (most of which except some physical powers are pretty useless against Undead) but with almost no OCC related or Secondary skills, missing 3-6 OCC skills, and with less than HALF their normal Tattoos. And theyd get half as many as they level. Doesn't seem worth it to me, especially considering... they can just be a Major Psychic and still get almost all of the beneficial powers against undead (Other than Psychic Body Field and Psi-sword, but you get Flaming Weapons and Invulnerability is massively better than PBF) and lose NOTHING.

Quote:
It seems that the Splugorth would have figured this one out a long time ago. Why isn't it known among regular True Atlanteans? You gotta figure that anything that gives them an edge against monsters would be something worth looking into.


Does it actually give them an edge? Losing all those Power Tattoos is CRIPPLING. You get way less MDC, you get less PPE, and you get way less actual Tattoo power.

Seems like a bad deal.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:35 am
  

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Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Why are the Sunaj the only ones that have done this.


Because it would brutally cripple them as T-men. The Master Psychic Sunaj Assassin only has 7 tattoos (JUST enough to turn him MDC), and gets far fewer as they level up as well. And they lose about half their OCC skills.

Theyre basically a just-barely-buffed Master Psychic with a minor side of Tattoos. (As it says to just have them have the powers of a Master Psychic PCC)

It would be completely unsuitable for an Undead Slayer and not make him even remotely better at his actual job (hunting Undead). The Undead Slayer starts with (at a minimum) TWENTY Tattoos. (And thats counting several of their tattoos which are combos as "one" since the new rule in Secrets says that they only count as one if they are all done at once, so flaming arrows with wings, etc still only count as one). Otherwise its more like 24.

So, basically, you'd have Undead Slayers with the powers of say, a Mind Melter (most of which except some physical powers are pretty useless against Undead) but with almost no OCC related or Secondary skills, missing 3-6 OCC skills, and with less than HALF their normal Tattoos. And theyd get half as many as they level. Doesn't seem worth it to me, especially considering... they can just be a Major Psychic and still get almost all of the beneficial powers against undead (Other than Psychic Body Field and Psi-sword, but you get Flaming Weapons and Invulnerability is massively better than PBF) and lose NOTHING.

Quote:
It seems that the Splugorth would have figured this one out a long time ago. Why isn't it known among regular True Atlanteans? You gotta figure that anything that gives them an edge against monsters would be something worth looking into.


Does it actually give them an edge? Losing all those Power Tattoos is CRIPPLING. You get way less MDC, you get less PPE, and you get way less actual Tattoo power.

Seems like a bad deal.


Every point you have is right, but it's also not thinking it through.
If Magic Tattoos do not affect psionics at all, why only stop at 7 and get a couple more later? Yes, that's how that particular OCC does it, but the game designers limited it that way. My point is, there is no in-game mechanics to stop my Mind Melter from getting as many tattoos as s/he wants beyond tradition. Is there? If my True Atlantean MM makes best buds with a young Chiang-Ku, is there anything stopping us from him giving me as many tattoos as we can get? Beyond the limitation of having to wait 6 months in between them, do the rules say we can't. So if it's possible, and I really don't mean to be min-maxing just playing devil's advocate, why haven't we seen it before?
I really am not trying to build this or give people the idea that it's okay, I'm just trying to grasp the rules of it all.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:45 pm
  

Palladin

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they are *able* to get half as many tattoos. not "they arbitrarily decided to not get more tattoos", that's how many they *can* get. it absolutely *is* interfering with their ability to get tattoos.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:47 am
  

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Knight

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HarleeKnight wrote:
Why are the Sunaj the only ones that have done this. It seems that the Splugorth would have figured this one out a long time ago. Why isn't it known among regular True Atlanteans? You gotta figure that anything that gives them an edge against monsters would be something worth looking into.

1. Master Level Psionics can not be rolled randomly, only Major or Minor. (CC step4 pg289RUE or pg12RMB). This means you have to select a Class with Master Level Psionics, you might be able to multi-class but given the below...

2. World Book 21 pg107 has a bit to say on Master Pychics and Tattoo Magic:
-Master Psionics tend to burn off PPE during formation of their powers.
-Tattoo Magic works by "link between the subject's P.P.E. base and magic tattoo." (Mind Melter is 2d4 base vs normal human of 3d6 IINM)
-"True Altanteans are on exception to this rule"
-The TA does get the Marks of Heritage and any other tattoo acquired during their youth (when psychics still have PPE).
-TA Master Psychics can gain additional MTs, but will not gain PPE nor MDC (which could mean the Sunaj Undead Slayer won't turn MDC)

As for why the Splugorth don't produce Master Psychic T-men. I think WB21 does a good job of illustrating why that isn't possible, but the Splugorth may not want to create them (even if they could) for two reasons:
1. Business perspective, why sell you one super deluxe slave when I can sell you 2 slaves (assuming such is possible).
2. They don't want to make their slaves to powerful (and a Master Psychic T-man, even if it was possible, might fit the bill of to powerful)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:53 pm
  

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Comment: For the White Rose!!!
ShadowLogan wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Why are the Sunaj the only ones that have done this. It seems that the Splugorth would have figured this one out a long time ago. Why isn't it known among regular True Atlanteans? You gotta figure that anything that gives them an edge against monsters would be something worth looking into.

1. Master Level Psionics can not be rolled randomly, only Major or Minor. (CC step4 pg289RUE or pg12RMB). This means you have to select a Class with Master Level Psionics, you might be able to multi-class but given the below...

2. World Book 21 pg107 has a bit to say on Master Pychics and Tattoo Magic:
-Master Psionics tend to burn off PPE during formation of their powers.
-Tattoo Magic works by "link between the subject's P.P.E. base and magic tattoo." (Mind Melter is 2d4 base vs normal human of 3d6 IINM)
-"True Altanteans are on exception to this rule"
-The TA does get the Marks of Heritage and any other tattoo acquired during their youth (when psychics still have PPE).
-TA Master Psychics can gain additional MTs, but will not gain PPE nor MDC (which could mean the Sunaj Undead Slayer won't turn MDC)

As for why the Splugorth don't produce Master Psychic T-men. I think WB21 does a good job of illustrating why that isn't possible, but the Splugorth may not want to create them (even if they could) for two reasons:
1. Business perspective, why sell you one super deluxe slave when I can sell you 2 slaves (assuming such is possible).
2. They don't want to make their slaves to powerful (and a Master Psychic T-man, even if it was possible, might fit the bill of to powerful)


Thank you! That answered my question perfectly. I have read Splynn but it's been a few years and I did not remember that part at all.
It would seem that the Sunaj Assassin breaks these rules but that is a function of that OCC only, and that's okay. Again, thank you so much.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:51 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
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ShadowLogan wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Why are the Sunaj the only ones that have done this. It seems that the Splugorth would have figured this one out a long time ago. Why isn't it known among regular True Atlanteans? You gotta figure that anything that gives them an edge against monsters would be something worth looking into.

1. Master Level Psionics can not be rolled randomly, only Major or Minor. (CC step4 pg289RUE or pg12RMB). This means you have to select a Class with Master Level Psionics, you might be able to multi-class but given the below...


He mistakenly refers to them as Sunaj Undead Slayers, but what he's actually referring to are Sunaj Assassins, which are ALL either Major or Master Psionics. (Secrets of the Atlanteans, page 83). IF they are a Master Psychic, they get all the powers of a Psychic OCC, but then suffer a huge pruning of their Sunaj Assassin abilities and skills.

Quote:
2. World Book 21 pg107 has a bit to say on Master Pychics and Tattoo Magic:
-Master Psionics tend to burn off PPE during formation of their powers.
-Tattoo Magic works by "link between the subject's P.P.E. base and magic tattoo." (Mind Melter is 2d4 base vs normal human of 3d6 IINM)
-"True Altanteans are on exception to this rule"
-The TA does get the Marks of Heritage and any other tattoo acquired during their youth (when psychics still have PPE).
-TA Master Psychics can gain additional MTs, but will not gain PPE nor MDC (which could mean the Sunaj Undead Slayer won't turn MDC)


At least as this applies to True Atlanteans, this is now highly suspect if it is still true, as DB15 seems to override this completely. Not only do Sunaj Assassin Master Psychics still become MDC, they still gain MDC and PPE per tattoo AND as they level up. They simply gain less tattoos (at character gen) and less tattoos as they level up.

There is also an example on page 123 that Atlantean Cyber-Knights can receive up to 8 Tattoos, with the specific intention of turning them into an MDC being, since they will not/cannot get the Cyber Armor without severe penalties. And Cyber-Knights can be Master Psychics.

The question Harlee appeared to be asking was "well if you can make Master Psychic Tattooed men, why dont you?"

On the Atlantean side, it would be because its against the law, and all of the clans except Aerhiman obey the law (and, well, Aerhiman = teh bad gaiz). (DB15 Page 47; "This is law and tradition dutifully followed by all Atlantean Clansmen, and strictly enforced by clan elders and clan Alchemists"). So while it is -technically possible-, within the setting, it just isnt done. Only the Aerhiman would dare break the laws.

Quote:
As for why the Splugorth don't produce Master Psychic T-men. I think WB21 does a good job of illustrating why that isn't possible, but the Splugorth may not want to create them (even if they could) for two reasons:
1. Business perspective, why sell you one super deluxe slave when I can sell you 2 slaves (assuming such is possible).
2. They don't want to make their slaves to powerful (and a Master Psychic T-man, even if it was possible, might fit the bill of to powerful)


Number 1 is more likely than number 2 since from the examples we do have, Master Psychic Tatooed Men lose significant numbers of Tattoos, which means the power gains from being a Master Psychic really aren't that great.

Harlee also asks "well, the rules dont actually state that i cant get a billion tattoos if i make friends with a Chiang-Ku no matter what class i am". And this is technically correct. But its the GM who makes the call if you're even going to find a Chiang-Ku willing to break all the traditions and customs. The answer to that is "probably not", and even if you do, "there are going to be consequences" and "this will never be a thing where they are mass produced". As soon as word got out, other Chiang-Ku, and the Atlantean clans, would try to shut it down, hard.

Now, while I, personally, would totally re-write the rules to make getting Tattoos more restrictive via an actual game-mechanic, instead of relying on "setting MacGuffin/Setting silliness" as a balancing factor, currently, that's how it is balanced.

Its mechanically possible, if you find a corrupt/for sale Tattoo Master (Chiang-Ku or Atlantean) to get a pair of Tattoo's every six months, with no real maximum, but the Setting Will Not Be OK With That, and consequences should fall on you like a mountain of bricks.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:07 pm
  

Palladin

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i mean, it isn't like the splugorth care about the traditions of the chiang-ku or true atlanteans, but they also have the tattoos per level thing.

to me, that suggests that the maximum isn't just a matter of how much they're willing to do. it reflects a limitation on the magic itself, just one that isn't discussed in depth.

i would further suggest that training can be given to increase or decrease someone's capacity for the tattoos, given that there is no indication regular t-men can get the same number as the more trained OCCs.

but just deciding that you'd like more tattoos does not seem sufficient. otherwise the splugorth would be selling tattoos without caring about what the atlantean clans think. or, at the very least, they'd probably have some of their own t-men covered in random tattoos from head to toe just to give them extra PPE and MDC.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:52 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
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Shark_Force wrote:
i mean, it isn't like the splugorth care about the traditions of the chiang-ku or true atlanteans, but they also have the tattoos per level thing.

to me, that suggests that the maximum isn't just a matter of how much they're willing to do. it reflects a limitation on the magic itself, just one that isn't discussed in depth.


There is, unfortunately, nothing in the rules to suggest this. The only limiting factor seems to be the damage sustained from the Tattoos (potentially preventing you from getting more than one Tattoo if you dont have enough HP/SDC to live through it) and the no-more-than-two-tattoos-every-six-months limitation. Nothing else even implies that there's more to it than that, particularly given that during their training period, Maxi-men and Undead Slayers in particular almost assuredly get their initial set of tattoos back-to-back.

The only limiting factor seems to setting-enforced. Atlantean Clans dont allow more than a certain number of tattoos, by tradition. All of the Clans other than the Aerhiman follow this, and even the Aerhiman dont allow people to have too many Tattoos (likely as a measure to keep people under control/not allow anyone to become too powerful).

Splugorth likely dont do it because they can charge a premium for Maxi-Men (this is called out in Atlantis, where it referrences that the weaker "regular" T-men as "basically your budget sedan" and Maxi-Men as "luxury models"). And then charge even more to "upgrade" your T-man later.

The Splugorth have shown many times that they will hold back their best for their personal use and/or not sell it at all, simply because the extra profit that might be gained isn't worth the potential problems caused by letting massively powered T-men out into the wild (especially they wouldn't want to sell one to a client and then have said slave go nuts, and Splugorth-created T-men tend to be quite insane, unlike Atlanteans. The more Tattoos you add, the more crazy they get (one more insanity for every 5 tattoos after their starting, which they already have two insanities for).

So it makes sense for them not to go too overboard. At that point you'd start getting negative publicity because of crazy defective "product".

Quote:
but just deciding that you'd like more tattoos does not seem sufficient. otherwise the splugorth would be selling tattoos without caring about what the atlantean clans think. or, at the very least, they'd probably have some of their own t-men covered in random tattoos from head to toe just to give them extra PPE and MDC.


I think i covered that above. Non-Atlantean T-men (at least those specifically created by the Splugorth) go insane. Yeah, you can put 60 Tattoos on that guy. And then hell be crazy as all get out and likely a huge liability (hed have ... like 10 insanities). He'd be an uncontrollable mess.

And while the Splugorth love money, they often dont sell the best simply to keep the market moving, and because they dont need to.

Im sure if you had ENOUGH money, yes, you could convince the Splugorth to turn you into a T-Mega-Man (though you'd have to be at their tender mercies for literal years - 1 year per 4 tattoos), you'd be crazy as a loon afterwards and unlikely to be able to function well.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:39 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
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is there anything in the rules that suggest you *can* exceed the limitations on how many tattoos you get based on character level?

i certainly don't recall anything that remotely implied that the number of tattoos you could get based on your level was an *optional* limit in any way. is there something in the more recent atlantis book that says they can just keep on adding tattoos indefinitely whether you gain levels or not?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:07 pm
  

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Knight

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Shark_Force wrote:
is there anything in the rules that suggest you *can* exceed the limitations on how many tattoos you get based on character level?

i certainly don't recall anything that remotely implied that the number of tattoos you could get based on your level was an *optional* limit in any way. is there something in the more recent atlantis book that says they can just keep on adding tattoos indefinitely whether you gain levels or not?


The only thing I can think of is that other non-T classes have no level limits at all (they can get a full 6 regardless of level) but maybe level limitations apply to amounts beyond 6?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:04 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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Shark_Force wrote:
is there anything in the rules that suggest you *can* exceed the limitations on how many tattoos you get based on character level?

i certainly don't recall anything that remotely implied that the number of tattoos you could get based on your level was an *optional* limit in any way. is there something in the more recent atlantis book that says they can just keep on adding tattoos indefinitely whether you gain levels or not?

I don't know if DB15 revised this, but as far back as WB2 there is a limit on how often you can get a new tattoo, and since you have to receive said tattoos from someone else you might not get them at level up. So yes I could see a situation where you "bank" them for acquisition later, but there will be some time between acquisition no matter what.

WB2 pg94 and repeated on pg97, pg99
"The number o tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-man, can get at any one time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos". the only thing to change on page99 is that Maxi-man is replaced with Undead Slayer.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:35 am
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7236
ShadowLogan wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
is there anything in the rules that suggest you *can* exceed the limitations on how many tattoos you get based on character level?

i certainly don't recall anything that remotely implied that the number of tattoos you could get based on your level was an *optional* limit in any way. is there something in the more recent atlantis book that says they can just keep on adding tattoos indefinitely whether you gain levels or not?

I don't know if DB15 revised this, but as far back as WB2 there is a limit on how often you can get a new tattoo, and since you have to receive said tattoos from someone else you might not get them at level up. So yes I could see a situation where you "bank" them for acquisition later, but there will be some time between acquisition no matter what.

WB2 pg94 and repeated on pg97, pg99
"The number o tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-man, can get at any one time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos". the only thing to change on page99 is that Maxi-man is replaced with Undead Slayer.


that's all very nice, but those are limits to the frequency of getting tattoos, and says nothing about the maximum number you can have... so again, is there anything that actually says you can exceed the number your OCC allows?

because "it doesn't say you can't" really isn't a compelling argument. it doesn't say you can't add to your MDC by pretending that you have more MDC either. that doesn't mean that somewhere out there someone has billions of MDC just from pretending that they have more and more and more.

the OCC tells you how many tattoos you can have. the books tell you that you can't get them faster than a certain rate. nothing about the maximum rate at which you can acquire tattoos allows you to ignore the number of tattoos your OCC says you get.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:43 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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ShadowLogan wrote:
WB2 pg94 and repeated on pg97, pg99
"The number o tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-man, can get at any one time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos". the only thing to change on page99 is that Maxi-man is replaced with Undead Slayer.

Hm... would a Chaing-Ku be considered a T-Man? =)

Shark_Force wrote:
that's all very nice, but those are limits to the frequency of getting tattoos, and says nothing about the maximum number you can have... so again, is there anything that actually says you can exceed the number your OCC allows?

The problem with that approach is we already know you don't need an OCC to opt you in for a "maximum tattoos cap" since non T-Men can freely get any amount from 1-6 without having an OCC which specifies an amount of tattoos.

Shark_Force wrote:
because "it doesn't say you can't" really isn't a compelling argument. it doesn't say you can't add to your MDC by pretending that you have more MDC either. that doesn't mean that somewhere out there someone has billions of MDC just from pretending that they have more and more and more.

I see it more along the lines of "your teacher might teach you 1-2 new spells" not being a hard cap against them teaching you a 3rd spell.

Or "The CS will pay you 2000-2400 credits a month" not being a hard cap against you earning 3000 credits due to a bonus.

Shark_Force wrote:
the OCC tells you how many tattoos you can have. the books tell you that you can't get them faster than a certain rate. nothing about the maximum rate at which you can acquire tattoos allows you to ignore the number of tattoos your OCC says you get.

Some of the wording in the book is kinda odd. For example pg 86
"An Atlantean may have as many as four additional tattoos (that's six total) but never more than that. The only exception is the Atlantean Undead Slayer"

That would seem to imply that 7+ tats on True Atlanteans is impossible for other OCCs like T-Man/Max-Man/T-Monster-Man...

But I'm skeptical of that, because even ignoring the later contradiction in South America (Atlanteans can be Monster Hunters) we know there is also an exception to that in WB2 (albeit an OCC which is GM's eyes only...) so it's not and never was a hard rule despite being phrased that way...

Now, as for the tats, the first key statement is page 94:

"The typical T-man will start with 12 tattoos. Make the following selections:"

These are not hard caps at all. It is merely describing what selections to make if you are playing a "typical T-Man".

The GM is free to have you start with merely 7 tattoos, or as many as 70 tattoos, but obviously the character's age should take into account the time you would have needed to receive them. IE it would make more sense if you were playing a 50-year-old-elf who had all 26 varieties simple animal tattoos and 44 varieties of simple weapons, because giving magicW/monster/power tats to elves (especially in high quantity) would ruin them.

The level-up guidelines are merely "his master will add two more simple tattoos or one major tattoo" which is probably just a standardized process where masters realized you reached a new plateau (probably proven by longer duration time) and have earned a reward.

We know this is no hard cap since "GM Option" exceeds the 12 guideline: "the GM may, at his sole discretion, allow the player character to select as many as six additional tattoos from any of the categories".

This is supposed to be ONLY for runaway slaves, which I guess you could take as a "GMs may not give bonus tattoos to non-runaways" but that is clearly just a RP guideline and not a "rules of nature" guideline.

So since we know it's just a RP guideline, the "six additional" should be interpreted that way too, and not some kind of hard cap. After all: it doesn't even matter what kind. The kind would matter if it was metaphysics and not RP.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:00 pm
  

Adventurer

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
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Comment: They/Them
The Sunaj Assassin isn't allowed to bank tattoos, and can only receive 1/6 months. This applied even in the version in WB2, where there wasn't the possibility of master psionics affecting the reception rate. While "optional", the Atlantean Tattoo Master in Rifter 52 states the following under the heading 4. Create Magic Tattoo: "Generally, those with six or fewer tattoos can receive another tattoo as soon as they recover from the last."

Speaking to the OP, I think a Master Psychic getting tattoos should either go with the rules in WB21, or should have the reduction of abilities as shown in Secrets of the Atlanteans. If going with the former, the lower potential PPE could lead to things such as Mystics and Elves seeing increased use as Splugorth tattooed slave stock.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:23 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Even if you just go with the "you cant get more than 2 tattoos every six months" rule, i dont see the issue, really. Even ignoring the rules in WB21 (not actually turning into MDC, etc).

If you apply Tattoos to a character with an existing Master Psychic OCC (PCC), it would only be done after character creation. To earn enough of them to become MDC, you're looking at a few years of downtime, and likely at least one insantiy if not two (as you're almost assuredly not getting them from Atlanteans or Chiang-Ku, which leaves the Splugorth).

If you wanted to be a "full-blown" T-man + Master Psychic (15+ tattoos) - you're looking at about 8 years of downtime.

Good luck with that. Oh, and 4+ insanities. Joy.

Seems like a "problem" that corrects itself. The rest of the party isn't just going to hang it up for 8 or 9 years so you can become a T-man.

Since the reverse isn't possible (A person who is notionally a T-man that also just happens to be a Master Psychic) unless you're Aerhiman, and specifically, Sunaj (which most Aerhiman are not), its not even an issue.

You cant be an Undead Slayer or Voyager and be a Master Psychic. The other clans (and even the non-Sunaj Aerhiman) dont let Master Psychics become T-men. Members of these clans who are Master Psychics are encouraged to develop their natural abilities.

So its a non-issue issue.

Unless your GM (and fellow players) are OK with you sidelining the party for 8 or 9 years, in which case you're firmly into "The GM said it was OK" territory and the actual rules dont matter much at that point anyway, since the GM is totally comfortable with you playing a fully T-man Master Psychic.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:55 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Because were discussing Tattoos, i thought id throw out there how i'd run Tattoos instead:

Instead of "people who aren't T-men pay double cost for Tattoos" - all of the Tattoo casts will be set to the base value for non T-men.
As part of their OCC abilities, T-men OCCs get the "Tattoo Affinity" (or whatever you want to call it) that cuts the cost in half.

I'd throw out the "Destroys the ability to cast spells". This is just pointless. Since no spellcasting OCC can get more than 6 Tattoos to start (and most dont get more than 2-4), the only way they're going to get more is if the GM allows it. So.. so what? If the GM is OK with a spellcasting PC getting tattoos after character gen (still limited to the every six months thing) then... who cares? So he gets a little more PPE, still has to pay double the cost of a T-man (since the pay half, see above) for whatever Tattoos he does have... and maybe turns MDC. BIIIIIIGGGG WHOOP. The same spellcaster could also just have been a race that was already MDC and had a higher PPE base. Since this is a GM-controlled issue (your character cant get Tattoos without the GMs cooperation), this restriction never made any particular sense.

The RP elements of "we dont generally give more than 6 tattoos out to non-T-men" can and should remain. This would explain why you dont see a ton of Atlantean mages running around who also have 20+ tattoos (but maybe sometimes you DO run into a heavily tattooed mage, because he's a legendary Atlantean super hero). The Splugorth generally dont do it (give more than six Tattoos to non T-men, and, honestly, even give Tattoos to non-slave/non-Tmen at all) is because it causes insanities (which puts a lot of potential customers off) and because they reserve Tattoo magic for their slaves, so they can make a lot more selling you a T-man slave.

For Psychics, as above, i simply dont see a reason to make an issue out of it. You can only get Tattoos (at all, unless you're an Atlantean) at all if the GM lets you. So who cares. I COULD see a thing where, because psychics have almost no PPE base, it makes it harder for the Tattoo Magic to work. Tattoos would not grant PPE, and you would instead use your Tattoos with your ISP - and, much like TW items, it takes twice as much ISP as it does PPE to activate. (and this is on top of basically already paying double since non-Tmen effectively pay double). Any potential balance issues take care of themselves pretty much.

I'd probably de-limit Elves (their penalties), Dwarves, and other SDC humanoids from being T-men. The reasoning behind restricting them never really made much sense. Atlanteans still arent likely to give any of these races Tattoos (with a few exceptions like how Atlanteans will sometimes give Cyber-Knights Tattoos, etc), and the Splugorth would likely be the only source of T-men of these races.

I see no issue with the "if you have Super Powers/Mutant Powers you can't get Tattoos" rule. Whatever genetic changes there are, plus the weird PPE issues that sometimes arise with if you have Super Powers, make it so the Tattoos just dont stick. I also dont see an issue with dropping this, either, as, again.. its a GM controlled issue. You cant get the Tattoos without the GM being OK with it... so... who cares?

I might have some Tattoos require skills to use. Dimensional Tattoos, for instance, might require lores, or the Tattoo just wont work right for you (you dont know how to focus it, etc). The Voyager should have those skills as OCC skills anyway.

I'd do away with the recent ret-re-con in Secrets of the Atlanteans that gimped Tattoos by turning them into "smart" magic that de-powers itself when fighting certain targets. This was just a silly, silly change. A Flaming Sword should do MDC (in an MDC setting, at least), period. It shouldn't suddenly be no better than a Simple Weapon because im fighting an unarmored human.

OCC wise, i'd re-evaluate the Tattoo loadouts of some of the T-men, but for the most part they seem fine. Im not sure i'd keep the "dont have to touch your Tattoos" special ability of some OCCs simply because it seems like basically not EVER being able to stop a T-man from using his Tattoos seems.. counter-intuitive and creates more gameplay problems than it fixes.

Id completely overhaul the Nomad to, by default, be a minor T-man. (but he doesnt get the "Affinity" ability, meaning he pays the higher base cost) Think.. the Mystic of T-men. (THe current "Paladin" option is a good place to start in terms of Tattoo power + a few Dimension tattoos to help them Nomad around). Not as powerful as a full up T-man (like a Mystic is not as powerful as a full-up Spellcaster), and has some other abilities to compensate (some of the new abilties listed under the revised OCC perhaps). They would not get new Tattoos as they leveled up. Basically, once you become a "Nomad" (think... kind of like a 1% Biker Club, Nomad is something you choose to be, and other people accept it and then you get your Nomad Patch (Nomad Tattoos) and off you go), you get your basic outfit of Tattoos and thats pretty much all you get unless your Clan really thinks you're special and deserve more. (Rare, just like anyone else getting more than 6 Tattoos, etc).

I'd make the "if an Atlantean becomes a Cyber-Knight, his clan MAY give him 8 Tattoos so he becomes MDC" (because they cant/wont use the Cyber Armor) just a straight up rule. (and, as a non-Tman, doesnt get the Affinity special ability). We already know that the Atlanteans (or at least a friendly Chiang-Ku or two) somewhat frequently give Cyber-Knights Tattoos (1 in 200 CKs), so adding to the lore that there is just straight up a new Atlantean tradition that you get your first six while you're training to be a CK, and if you graduate to being a real, full-up CK, you return home upon your "Graduation" and get your last two to become MDC.

Again, this is an "if i were writing it" thing, and is still early. Numbers need to be run, balance kicked around, etc.

But really, the idea of making Tattoos so restricted in who can get them (OCC wise, particularly Spellcasters) just never seemed necessary since getting them at all requires the GM to be OK with it. THe downsides of trying to get them in-game as it is, provide the necessary balance (no more than 4 a year no matter what). AND you have to convince someone to give them to you (GM discretion) or pay the Splugorth (still GM discretion, but now you're bordering on... well your character is now doing business with the evil Splugorth) and potentially go insane. Not really seeing the issue.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:59 am
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7236
could've swore there was a cap on tattoos for all OCCs that are not t-men, in the sense that getting more than 6 causes you to lose your old OCC and become a t-man of some variety (which has since had exceptions made, but exceptions don't change the rule).

i didn't recall the bit about t-men being able to start with a bunch of extra tattoos though. that does imply that you can add more tattoos to a regular t-man in some way or another.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:06 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5811
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
If you wanted to be a "full-blown" T-man + Master Psychic (15+ tattoos) - you're looking at about 8 years of downtime.

Good luck with that. Oh, and 4+ insanities. Joy.

Seems like a "problem" that corrects itself. The rest of the party isn't just going to hang it up for 8 or 9 years so you can become a T-man.

I see this as mostly an issue that would come up if a GM gives the party an Astral Realm in the Outer Plane (I think 1 minute = 1 week or something?) where mages can spend the days/months required to learn new magic spells, build dozens of talismans or mummies, or for diabolists to prep wards, so a chaing-ku PC might want to spend that time building up tats on the local Undead Slayers.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:07 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6344
Location: WI
Shark_Force wrote:
could've swore there was a cap on tattoos for all OCCs that are not t-men, in the sense that getting more than 6 causes you to lose your old OCC and become a t-man of some variety (which has since had exceptions made, but exceptions don't change the rule).

i didn't recall the bit about t-men being able to start with a bunch of extra tattoos though. that does imply that you can add more tattoos to a regular t-man in some way or another.

There is a cap on Tattoos for all OCCs that are not T-men: six. It isn't specifically stated, but repeated often enough that those with less than seven tattoos (1-6) are not considered a T-Man (type) in WB2 pg85 (Limitations) and pg86 (Others who use tattoos but are not T-men). The limit of six is repeated a few other places to, and you need 7 tattoos to become MDC.

Yes T-men classes in WB2 (haven't checked WB21 or WB7) can start with additional tattoos at the GM's approval with the understanding they are not likely to receive new tattoos. (pg97,pag95, pg94 different OCCS but all have it in the bolded "GM Option" at the end of the Magic Tattoo section.

Shark_Force wrote:
that's all very nice, but those are limits to the frequency of getting tattoos, and says nothing about the maximum number you can have... so again, is there anything that actually says you can exceed the number your OCC allows?

WB2's GM Option rule for runaways mentioned previously.

WB2 implies a limit of 48 for one class (Maxi-men, WB2 pg83) mentioned in passing. Starting (per pg96 for the class) is 18, with 13 level ups of 2 or 1 (start at level 2 and not level 1) so 18+26=44 if one goes for the maximum number at level ups, which results in pretty close the implied limit. The Undead Slayer (WB2 pg97 mentions a limit of 50 for class, but 2 are Marks of Heritage), the math is 18 + 28 =46, which includes the Marks of Heritage. These two examples seem to suggest no more than four over the level for the class.

Available skin area (vary from person to person) and size of the magical tattoos (no idea on size) would also be another factor that could limit the number you can have.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:01 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Shark_Force wrote:
could've swore there was a cap on tattoos for all OCCs that are not t-men, in the sense that getting more than 6 causes you to lose your old OCC and become a t-man of some variety (which has since had exceptions made, but exceptions don't change the rule).


I looked through all the sources of Tattoo magic info that I am aware of (WB2, WB3, WB21, and DB15), and there is nothing like this stated anywhere that i can find.

Quote:
i didn't recall the bit about t-men being able to start with a bunch of extra tattoos though. that does imply that you can add more tattoos to a regular t-man in some way or another.


There's nothing presented anywhere, ever, that even implies that there is some sort of "special" limitation on how many Tattoos anyone can get. You could have 100 (well, in theory, youd have to have like.. every single weapon as a Tattoo and tons of animals and Monsters) if you lived long enough and you could find someone willing to tattoo you.

Thats the rub.

I think this line from WB21 sums it up (and makes it pretty clear that the "you get X tattoos at Y levels when leveling up" is not a metaphysical limitation of any kind):

WB21, page107 wrote:
Tattooed Men are slaves, and their masters will not want them to get too powerful, no matter how loyal they may appear to be. <more talk about slave types snipped, not relevant>. Even True Atlanteans do not give their T-men and Undead Slayers too much power. They tend to believe that power must be earned, not granted. That is why they give new tattoos only to those who earn them (i.e. upon reaching new levels of experience)


Its pretty clear that the ability to get tattoos isnt metaphysically limited to levels or anything else. You can get (potentially, provided you find someone to do the tattooing) as many as you like, within the 2-every-six-months rule. It just doesn't happen because non-Atlantean T-men are slaves, and the Splugorth purposefully do not make them too powerful (there's actually a bit in WB2 about why "regular" T-men (non-Maxi-men, basically) are so cheap in comparison (~300k vs 1-2 million) is precisely BECAUSE they are so unstable that they are hard to keep in check/keep control of), and Atlanteans wont just give you more tattoos unless you earn them.

But there's no metaphysical reason you cant get 100 Tattoos given enough time and someone willing to buck conventions (though you better hope its not the Splugorth doing it to you, or you gonna be Cuh-Ray-Zee) and give them to you.

However, ill stand by my "this is a non-problem problem" as doing so requires the GM to allow it.... and if the GM is OK with you being a T-man+++, then... who cares.

By default/RAW, you cant do that (as you cannot start as another OCC with more than 6 Tattoos unless you are an Atlantean Cyber Knight (requires GM approval, only gets 8 and never gets any more) or a Nomad (only get 9-10, never gets more), and adding more Tattoos later is entirely at the discretion of the GM.

All he has to do to prevent you from being a Mega-T-Man+++ is just say.... no.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:44 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7236
not sure why you're harping on the fact that there's no explicit limit again. the lack of an explicit limit is irrelevant. the rules tell you what you *can* do, not what you can't do (except in cases where the restriction is an exception to what you can do).

now, i get that there are clear indications that you can get more tattoos, and *that* fact *is* relevant. it shows that you can indeed have more tattoos than your level grants.

but a mere lack of limitations? so what. there's loads of stuff that doesn't have explicit limitations. none of those nonexistent limits imply that you can do whatever it is that it doesn't say you can't do. a lack of limitations means nothing. stop citing that, it proves nothing and can only serve to mislead other people into thinking it does actually mean something, and therefore reaching the wrong conclusions.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:22 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5811
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I think this line from WB21 sums it up (and makes it pretty clear that the "you get X tattoos at Y levels when leveling up" is not a metaphysical limitation of any kind):

WB21, page107 wrote:
Even True Atlanteans do not give their T-men and Undead Slayers too much power.
They tend to believe that power must be earned, not granted.
That is why they give new tattoos only to those who earn them
(i.e. upon reaching new levels of experience)



Its pretty clear that the ability to get tattoos isnt metaphysically limited to levels or anything else.
You can get (potentially, provided you find someone to do the tattooing) as many as you like,
within the 2-every-six-months rule.
It just doesn't happen because non-Atlantean T-men are slaves, and the Splugorth purposefully do not make them too powerful
..
and Atlanteans wont just give you more tattoos unless you earn them.


I think the largest problem we face is in explaining why Chaing-Ku (the only class which gives themselves tats) have level guidelines.

WB3
"Ordinary Chaing-Ku can give themselves one new tattoo from any category one every other level"
..
"The tattoo master gives himself one additional power tattoo every other level"
..
"he gets one additional tattoo from any of the other .. for each level"

Perhaps some have a humble self-limiting policy like the Atlanteans but I can't see that applying to Evil Chaing-Ku.

I can't explain for example, why Rama-Set, who has lived 8000+ years, has merely 8 major (4 power 2 monster 2 magicW) and 5 minor (3 animal 2 Sweapon) totalling a mere 13 tats.

Aesthetics comes to mind, but I don't even know if you see chaing-ku tats when they shapeshift.

Avoiding penalties also comes to mind, but 1D4 days worth of -1 to s/p/d/attack is pretty minor and I think someone like Rama-Set could schedule some down-time for getting at least a new simple weapon or animal tattoo every 3 months (probably don't want to do the 2/6m simultaneously) to maximize his options.

Even if Chaing-Ku didn't get bonus MDC/PPE like the human classes (it's unclear to me whether or not that's the case) you would want those weapon/animal options.

RPwise maybe he's just so into his necromancy that he feels it's below him to revert to his Tattoo Master past ways?


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