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 Post subject: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:18 pm
  

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So, is it a skill? Is it a power? How does everyone use it?
It's one of the things that has always confused me in this game and I just kept forgetting to ask. Oddly, my characters that meditate always just grabbed the power at character creation but it always seemed odd that I had waste (?) a power just so that I could recover ISP and PPE faster. It would seem even odder to have to waste a skill for it on my already skill starved OCCs. Why isn't already just an ability mages and psions have? Hell, I purposely gave all my magic OCC characters minor psionics just to get this damn thing. Not even questioning whether the power even works on PPE. So any clarification would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:43 pm
  

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HarleeKnight wrote:
So, is it a skill? Is it a power? How does everyone use it?
It's one of the things that has always confused me in this game and I just kept forgetting to ask. Oddly, my characters that meditate always just grabbed the power at character creation but it always seemed odd that I had waste (?) a power just so that I could recover ISP and PPE faster. It would seem even odder to have to waste a skill for it on my already skill starved OCCs. Why isn't already just an ability mages and psions have? Hell, I purposely gave all my magic OCC characters minor psionics just to get this damn thing. Not even questioning whether the power even works on PPE. So any clarification would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, it's usually (but not always) listed with Psi-Powers, however the write-ups generally refer to Meditation as a "skill." Furthermore, this skill should be automatic to both Psychics and Practitioners of Magic. For some book references ...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 186 wrote:
Meditation is a skill known and practiced by all practitioners of magic.

The section goes on to describe meditation in better detail and provide P.P.E. recovery if not listed in the specific O.C.C., but the important part here is that it states it's known and practiced by ALL practitioners of magic.

Rifts Game Master Guide, page 86 wrote:
5. Can not Syphon I.S.P. from other sources: [snip] ... they can however regenerate six I.S.P. points every hour through meditation. All Mystics and Minor, Major and Master Psychics should automatically get Meditation as one of their learned or intuitive skills.

Here we're told Psychics get it "automatically" as a skill. Keep in mind this comes from the RGMG, which doesn't list Meditation among the psionic powers at all from what I can see, and I cannot find a similar quote in RUE.

Now I listed the above two because they're from Rifts and this is a Rifts forum. With that said, I find this quote from PF2 (my setting of choice) a useful one that may offer some insight to your questions ...

Palladium Fantasy Second Edition, page 155 wrote:
Meditation is a skill/ability automatically known to all psychics. [snip] Meditation is not so much a psi-power as it is a mental discipline that enables the psychic to concentrate deeply and focus one's abilities and thoughts.

Here we're again told that it's automatically known to all psychics, but Palladium also clarifies that it's not a psi-power so much as it is a mental discipline. In PF2, we also have the Warrior Monk O.C.C. that knows Meditation, but is neither a psychic nor a practitioner of magic further showing it's a skill and not a power.

If need be, I can try to provide more sources. However, I hope that is sufficient to answer your questions. Farewell and safe journeys.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:07 pm
  

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Prysus wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
So, is it a skill? Is it a power? How does everyone use it?
It's one of the things that has always confused me in this game and I just kept forgetting to ask. Oddly, my characters that meditate always just grabbed the power at character creation but it always seemed odd that I had waste (?) a power just so that I could recover ISP and PPE faster. It would seem even odder to have to waste a skill for it on my already skill starved OCCs. Why isn't already just an ability mages and psions have? Hell, I purposely gave all my magic OCC characters minor psionics just to get this damn thing. Not even questioning whether the power even works on PPE. So any clarification would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, it's usually (but not always) listed with Psi-Powers, however the write-ups generally refer to Meditation as a "skill." Furthermore, this skill should be automatic to both Psychics and Practitioners of Magic. For some book references ...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 186 wrote:
Meditation is a skill known and practiced by all practitioners of magic.

The section goes on to describe meditation in better detail and provide P.P.E. recovery if not listed in the specific O.C.C., but the important part here is that it states it's known and practiced by ALL practitioners of magic.

Rifts Game Master Guide, page 86 wrote:
5. Can not Syphon I.S.P. from other sources: [snip] ... they can however regenerate six I.S.P. points every hour through meditation. All Mystics and Minor, Major and Master Psychics should automatically get Meditation as one of their learned or intuitive skills.

Here we're told Psychics get it "automatically" as a skill. Keep in mind this comes from the RGMG, which doesn't list Meditation among the psionic powers at all from what I can see, and I cannot find a similar quote in RUE.

Now I listed the above two because they're from Rifts and this is a Rifts forum. With that said, I find this quote from PF2 (my setting of choice) a useful one that may offer some insight to your questions ...

Palladium Fantasy Second Edition, page 155 wrote:
Meditation is a skill/ability automatically known to all psychics. [snip] Meditation is not so much a psi-power as it is a mental discipline that enables the psychic to concentrate deeply and focus one's abilities and thoughts.

Here we're again told that it's automatically known to all psychics, but Palladium also clarifies that it's not a psi-power so much as it is a mental discipline. In PF2, we also have the Warrior Monk O.C.C. that knows Meditation, but is neither a psychic nor a practitioner of magic further showing it's a skill and not a power.

If need be, I can try to provide more sources. However, I hope that is sufficient to answer your questions. Farewell and safe journeys.


Thank you very much. I don't remember ever reading that or if I did I completely forgot it. Thank you again.


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:46 pm
  

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BTS 2E has meditation listed as a technical skill.
Beyond the Supernatural 2nd Ed, Pg. 211 wrote:
Meditation. The skill of meditation teaches techniques and methods for relaxation, clearing the mind and spiritual focus. Similar to the psychic ability the Meditation skill enables the character to recover Base 1.s.P. at a rate of two points per hour of meditation and increase normal healing by 30%. Note: + I to save vs psionic attack or possession while in a meditative state. Base Skill: 30% +5% per level of experience.

But aside from this it is usually listed as a psi power. BTS 2E actually has Meditaion as a power requiring 0 ISP in every category of psi power but also has a power called meditation advanced in all of those categories as well.

I took the skill and created a physical skill that allowed people to rest for long periods of time to use less oxygen in closed environments. I got the idea after seeing this on Babylon 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:47 am
  

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Keep in mind that RUE came out after the RGMG. If there's a conflict between the two, I'd go with RUE.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:36 am
  

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Yes, both, depending.

The psi power 'meditation' is something all psis can take. In some text it is implied that every psi has the meditation power.

The meditiation skill is something chars can learn to do even if they are not magic or psi or chi users. However, depending on which setting, the meditaion skill gives different benifits. So be carefull about choosing to take it. It might not give what you think it does in a different game setting.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:05 am
  

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Mack wrote:
Keep in mind that RUE came out after the RGMG. If there's a conflict between the two, I'd go with RUE.

Greetings and Salutations. In general, I agree. In this case, I feel RUE simply removed clarity and I see no evidence this is an actual change or conflict.

Main books for Rifts (original), HU2, PF2, and Nightbane all have the automatic Meditation for all psychics. In both PF2 and Nightbane, Meditation is also listed in the Psionic Abilities lists. So RUE listing Meditation as a psionic skill doesn't preclude it from being an automatic skill for anyone with Psionics.

It's possible this was intended as a change and made only into a psychic power that must be selected, but I'm skeptical (at best) since RUE still states all Practitioners of Magic have Meditation.

Now if you have some evidence that a conflict exists, I'd be interested in seeing your support. Farewell and safe journeys.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:25 pm
  

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HarleeKnight wrote:
So, is it a skill? Is it a power? How does everyone use it?
It's one of the things that has always confused me in this game and I just kept forgetting to ask. Oddly, my characters that meditate always just grabbed the power at character creation but it always seemed odd that I had waste (?) a power just so that I could recover ISP and PPE faster. It would seem even odder to have to waste a skill for it on my already skill starved OCCs. Why isn't already just an ability mages and psions have? Hell, I purposely gave all my magic OCC characters minor psionics just to get this damn thing. Not even questioning whether the power even works on PPE. So any clarification would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game.


IMO, it should be a (physical?) skill that the overwhelming majority of psychic and magic classes should get automatically and that other classes can learn, though unless one is a mage, psychic, or a martial artist (from N&S) of some sort there wouldn't be much benefit to it.


Last edited by The Beast on Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:30 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
So, is it a skill? Is it a power? How does everyone use it?
It's one of the things that has always confused me in this game and I just kept forgetting to ask. Oddly, my characters that meditate always just grabbed the power at character creation but it always seemed odd that I had waste (?) a power just so that I could recover ISP and PPE faster. It would seem even odder to have to waste a skill for it on my already skill starved OCCs. Why isn't already just an ability mages and psions have? Hell, I purposely gave all my magic OCC characters minor psionics just to get this damn thing. Not even questioning whether the power even works on PPE. So any clarification would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game.


IMO, it should be a (physical?) skill that the overwhelming majority of psychic and magic classes should get automatically and that other classes can learn (though unless one is a mage, psychic, or a martial artist (from N&S) of some sort there wouldn't be much benefit to it).

I agree that it should be a skill, and even that most psi and magic OCCs / RCCs should get, but depending on how you do the mechanics of it there can be benefits for other characters as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:37 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
The Beast wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
So, is it a skill? Is it a power? How does everyone use it?
It's one of the things that has always confused me in this game and I just kept forgetting to ask. Oddly, my characters that meditate always just grabbed the power at character creation but it always seemed odd that I had waste (?) a power just so that I could recover ISP and PPE faster. It would seem even odder to have to waste a skill for it on my already skill starved OCCs. Why isn't already just an ability mages and psions have? Hell, I purposely gave all my magic OCC characters minor psionics just to get this damn thing. Not even questioning whether the power even works on PPE. So any clarification would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game.


IMO, it should be a (physical?) skill that the overwhelming majority of psychic and magic classes should get automatically and that other classes can learn (though unless one is a mage, psychic, or a martial artist (from N&S) of some sort there wouldn't be much benefit to it).

I agree that it should be a skill, and even that most psi and magic OCCs / RCCs should get, but depending on how you do the mechanics of it there can be benefits for other characters as well.

There is a skill that is different than the power.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:38 pm
  

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There are meditaion skills within the books. At least three different versions. Which is why I said to be careful which one you pick. This is because each one gives different benifits then the others. And the Duration formats of the skills are different between them.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:15 pm
  

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As I read it, there's Meditation (the Psychic Power) and then there is meditation (the thing mages do). And while they are similar, they are not synonymous.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:24 am
  

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Mack wrote:
As I read it, there's Meditation (the Psychic Power) and then there is meditation (the thing mages do). And while they are similar, they are not synonymous.

I'm not saying I disagree but are you basing that on something in the books? Rifts specifically doesn't seem to make a distinction, I am looking specifically at the Mystic who has both ISP and PPE to regenerate and there seems to be no difference between them.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:22 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
As I read it, there's Meditation (the Psychic Power) and then there is meditation (the thing mages do). And while they are similar, they are not synonymous.

I'm not saying I disagree but are you basing that on something in the books? Rifts specifically doesn't seem to make a distinction, I am looking specifically at the Mystic who has both ISP and PPE to regenerate and there seems to be no difference between them.

RUE p168 (the Magic Section) expressly describes meditation as a skill.

(The alternative is there's only one Meditation and mages automatically get the Psionic power.)

In my head-canon, the Psionic power fulfills the requirements of the magic skill. Thus a Mystic could use the Psionic power to recover both ISP and PPE.
But the magic skill dose NOT fulfill the requirement of the Psionic power would only affect PPE, not ISP.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:24 am
  

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Mack wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:
As I read it, there's Meditation (the Psychic Power) and then there is meditation (the thing mages do). And while they are similar, they are not synonymous.

I'm not saying I disagree but are you basing that on something in the books? Rifts specifically doesn't seem to make a distinction, I am looking specifically at the Mystic who has both ISP and PPE to regenerate and there seems to be no difference between them.

RUE p168 (the Magic Section) expressly describes meditation as a skill.

(The alternative is there's only one Meditation and mages automatically get the Psionic power.)

In my head-canon, the Psionic power fulfills the requirements of the magic skill. Thus a Mystic could use the Psionic power to recover both ISP and PPE.
But the magic skill dose NOT fulfill the requirement of the Psionic power would only affect PPE, not ISP.

I never gave this much thought until I created the skill in the early 2000's. RMB didn't have a power it was just something psychics and mages could do.

When RUE came out I just gave the psychic power to all mages and called it a mystical power so I Kind of agreed with you. I just never differentiated between the skill and the power much so I never thought about it.

As for PPE and ISP I made players choose which one they regenerated first. But I largely agree with you head canon.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:19 am
  

D-Bee

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Its worth nothing that if it is not a "skill" that all Psychics (PCCs, natch, not random mooks with random roll psionics) get, then several of the PCCs cant ever get it, and the fact that they have listed ISP recovery rates for when they are meditating is completely pointless.

The Burster, for instance, cannot ever take Meditation (the Psi power) that im aware of. Its not on the list of abilities they are allowed to take, at least.

So, if he doesn't get the ability to Meditate (and therefore the higher ISP recovery rate), why does it even bother to mention that he gets more ISP when meditating?

I'd say the intention (even if it isn't stated somewhere explicitly) is that all Men of Magic OCCs and and all Psychic OCCs can meditate by default. The psionic power is primarily of use, or for, minor and major psychics who dont have great ISP recovery rates or OCCs that have limited psionics (like potential Psi-Operator) and aren't truly psychic OCCs.

Honestly, in a perfect world, it would either be a granted OCC ability of any OCC that gets it (and everyone else just gets to whistle for it; thus the breaks of being a magic dabbler or minor/major psychic who doesn't take the Meditation power), or it would be an actual skill that (potentialy) anyone could take with a skill selection.

But we all know Palladium is far from a perfect world.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:57 pm
  

Hero

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We always just gave it to anyone with magic or psi automatically. We didn't make minor pyschics use one of their powers on it to have it.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:31 pm
  

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Knight

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Prysus wrote:
RUE still states all Practitioners of Magic have Meditation.

Is this possibly a remnant of the 1990 RMB intended for the original (llw/mystic/shifter/tw/dragon) five classes, but maybe not some of the subsequent ones like Temporal Warriors or Battle Magi?


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:37 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Prysus wrote:
RUE still states all Practitioners of Magic have Meditation.

Is this possibly a remnant of the 1990 RMB intended for the original (llw/mystic/shifter/tw/dragon) five classes, but maybe not some of the subsequent ones like Temporal Warriors or Battle Magi?

There is no indication in the book that would be the case. I mean it might be more interesting if a character had to take the skill or select the power. This would mean that some mages / psychics would have the improved recovery and others wouldn't. But it's clear that anyone with the mental ability to use magic / have psionics has the ability to meditate.

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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:55 pm
  

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Knight

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Warshield73 wrote:
it's clear that anyone with the mental ability to use magic / have psionics has the ability to meditate.

You brought up pg 211 of BTS2 "Similar to the psychic ability the Meditation skill enables" which seems to imply you'd need to select the power (which you probably couldn't use when a mind block is up) or select the skill (which won't work unless you pass the roll).

Re RUE 186's "known and practised by all", we should realize that some statements aren't in effect as absolute as they might seem...

RUE 189 for example states the "PPE Base ALWAYS regenerates", yet obviously it's NOT ALWAYS going to regenerate if a chracter can't at least attain the "hour of rest" required to regain at least five.

RUE 366 refers to an "hour of standard meditation" for psychics, but would that mean they ALL have it as a standard, or only those who select "Meditation (0)" on RUE 164 (+165/168/174)

I think we can safely assume mages don't have that version (since it is a psychic power, it counts as a psychic power in use, so using this meditation should make you easier to track by Psi-Hounds / Psi-Stalkers) and you wouldn't be able use it while using "Mask ISP and Psionics", but does this necessarily mean that mages have a 3rd type of meditation (non-psi / non-skill)?

Perhaps it just means they have the SKILL under two possible contexts:
    1) they simply all have the skill (BTS/Nightbane/N&S style) added on to their OCC skills, and it isn't noted repeatedly
    2) they're all required to select it as a secondary or related skill, and it isn't noted repeatedly

Book of Magic page 226 also allows the psionic power of Meditation to be drawn from the Amethyst crystal by stone masters...

Stone Masters are to my knowledge, Practitioners of Magic, so what purpose would they have in spending 10 PPE to activate this psi-power if meditation was indeed, universally possessed by all POM ?

Of course... since that only lasts 1 minute per level, it wouldn't really be worth the extra 5 PPE per hour a Stone Master got via meditation... has ANYONE ever used this? I guess I don't see the point...

Unless maybe this is the only way to use BOM227's requirement to meditate to enter Stasis Sleep for non-psychic Stone Masters? Or to (BOM226) meditate to charge diamonds with PPE.

BOM116 also mentions that 1 minute of meditation is required to use "Heal Self", so perhaps it would be useful if a Stone Master happened to have a talisman/scroll containing that spell, unless that means of casting ignored usual casting requirements. Heal Wounds (BOM106) is generally cheaper though, Heal Self is really only useful if you're MDC (Stone Masters aren't) or you have internal damage.


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