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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:28 am
  

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Wanderer

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Are group is having another debate on whether or not robot pilots should be able to wear heavy body armor or small power armor such as Norther Gun's Sabre armor while in a piloted robot. What do all of you say.. What does your campaign allow?? 8)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:32 am
  

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Depends on the robot. some are visibly....."snug". a triax forager i might allow most personal armor inside, but not a glitterboy. All this is a moot point, power armor isn't built to operate the controls and they're at risk of breaking something in there.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:24 am
  

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Most of the bots should be too tight to where full PA or even an exoskeleton. As for heavy EBA I always applied the physical skill penalty to piloting skill. There is no rule for this but my original group all agreed that it made sense.

I think there might have been a penalty listed in the old Macross II RPG, I know that is where we originally got an MDC pilot suit that we used for several years.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:57 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Depends on the robot. some are visibly....."snug". a triax forager i might allow most personal armor inside, but not a glitterboy. All this is a moot point, power armor isn't built to operate the controls and they're at risk of breaking something in there.

actually the glitterboy has a dedicated set of medium armor for use as a pilot suit. which actually makes it an oddity for Power armor.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:43 am
  

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Comment: They/Them
You might find this thread relevant. Note that only a couple of examples are 100% book-legal, with backed up citations.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:56 am
  

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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
Are group is having another debate on whether or not robot pilots should be able to wear heavy body armor or small power armor such as Norther Gun's Sabre armor while in a piloted robot. What do all of you say.. What does your campaign allow?? 8)

Heavy EBA/BA should allow operation for anything with a Pilot's Compartment, that's how its been since 1E Robotech. You might take penalties for the armor to your piloting skill/bonuses.

Use of Exoskeletons and even light Power Armor while inside a piloted robot would be a no. There might be specific cases where these can be worn by a passenger, but not a crewman. Something formfitting like an exo-skeleton might be possible IF the unit is designed for larger than normal humans, but you might run into issues with PS of user and intended PS of user to operate the controls.

Use of any grade EBA/BA for the pilot of power armor, unless specifically a noted design feature OR the existence of a Pilot's Compartment (like the Glitterboy has) would be a no. And the design feature would be found in the body armor entry and/or power armor entry (ex. Rifts Glitterboy Pilot Armor, RT CVR-3/Cyclone), and AFAIK the list is pretty limited.

EDIT:
If the idea here to stack the bonuses from the PA with the piloted robot, some Kittani designs have "light power armor" sections that can detach/reattach to more robotic/vehicular sections (WB2 Equestrian, WB7 Warfish) that could be interpreted to show that the bonuses do not stack. This leaves MDC protection as the only real reason to wear inside a piloted robot, but if you need 100s of MDC for the pilot's personal reserve to survive when their 'bot is destroyed...


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:30 pm
  

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^^Seconded^^

Most Robot vehicle crews would be in full BA. The crew of a CS Spider-Skull Walker, for example, would be in BA rather than just a uniform (or "Battle Pajamas").
Full BA is likely, but Heavy, Exo-BA, and small "man-sized" PA is a little trickier, depending on the type of Robot.

Can the Robot's control station (buttons, levers, triggers, handles, etc.) take the stress of (even light) Robotic PS, or does the char just end up breaking them?
Another thing to keep in mind is what a PA's exhaust (if any) may do inside an ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED cabin.........sure, Billy can run his PA inside the Robot vehicle, but the rest of the crew dies of carbon monoxide poisoning..........oops!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:29 pm
  

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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
Are group is having another debate on whether or not robot pilots should be able to wear heavy body armor or small power armor such as Norther Gun's Sabre armor while in a piloted robot. What do all of you say.. What does your campaign allow?? 8)



I think most robot vehicles permit at least light body armor. In the NG book there is armor and even power armor made for pilots of robot vehicles with pictures of people piloting while clearly wearing such things. Now some stuff like jaegers that is kinda borderline power armor/robot vehicles you are probably limited to a flight suit but most of the bigger ones think of it like you are sitting in the seat of a monster truck. If its big enough to have multiple people sitting in it then wearing at least light armor should prove no issue.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:31 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Most of the bots should be too tight to where full PA or even an exoskeleton. As for heavy EBA I always applied the physical skill penalty to piloting skill. There is no rule for this but my original group all agreed that it made sense.

I think there might have been a penalty listed in the old Macross II RPG, I know that is where we originally got an MDC pilot suit that we used for several years.



The NG book does specifically call out certain robot vehicles as allowing crew to wear light power armor also I believe some triax designs seem to imply the same.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:34 pm
  

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Only light and medium BA/EBA armor would seem sensible. No power armor, or heavy EBA is allowed to pilot Robots and other vihicles in, in our campains.

See Trekker pilot EBA, NG2 page 59. As far as I know, this is the only EBA that mentions that it has no piloting penalty.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:43 pm
  

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Basically the power armor they talk about in the NG book is stuff like the NG coyote or some of their other super light power armor options. Basically stuff that weighs very little and only increases the pilots size by a few inches. If you make seats strong enough to handle borgs than light power armor would be no challenge but this is not stuff like ulti max or glitter boys.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:05 pm
  

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Curbludgeon wrote:
You might find this thread relevant. Note that only a couple of examples are 100% book-legal, with backed up citations.
So I was going to bring something mentioned in that thread.

Step 1: First you need to get power Armor that sizes you at or under gargoyle/orge size.
Step 2: Get your hands on Phoenix Power Armor.
Step 3: Get yourself a (transforming) Bike Walker from the Black Market Book?
Step 4: Get a Sand Crawler.

You are now in Power Armor which is in Power Armor
You are now riding a Bike which is riding a Bike.

The sand crawler and PPA are built to handle robotic/supernatural strength, so that only leaves the Bike Walker as the odd one out. To my knowledge, this is the largest stack you can have without counting indirect methods (i.e. inside a DH Transport, while inside a Super Fortress, while inside those Splugorth nave bases, and controlling the mess via psi). I'm not very knowledgeable with RoboTech, but I think they have mech/walkers for a giant race. So you might be able to swap out the sand crawler for a walker mecha.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:21 pm
  

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sanka wrote:
Only light and medium BA/EBA armor would seem sensible. No power armor, or heavy EBA is allowed to pilot Robots and other vihicles in, in our campains.


Power Armor i get, but... why would "Heavy" EBA be an issue? ("Heavy" being a purely "as compared to lighter armor" distinction, as even most Heavy EBA is only ~25lbs).

It doesnt make the pilot bigger in any meaningful way (a few inches at best) and you can run a marathon in it.

I can do (well, i could before i exploded my back) do jumping jacks and push-ups in my Burgundian Gothic plate armor; i used to drive to events in my car (not even a big car - an old Dodge Omni at the time) without any impairment, wearing said armor. The only part i would have to remove would be the large tassets which hang over the buttocks, which is just four buckles (less ornate sets of plate often dont even have tassets back there). That entire harness was about 80lbs (about 40lbs of maile hauberk and 40lbs of plate armor, + gambeson). Half of that weight weighs DIRECTLY on your shoulders (the maile).

We had one regular who rode to the events on his Harley. In full armor (and a heavier and more restrictive suit than mine, as it was "earlier").

And medieval plate armor is both far heavier (on the order of 2.5 times to 5 times, depending on the suit of armor in Rifts and the period of plate armor you're talking about), and far more restrictive (it only lets your arms and legs bend in a few limited directions) than any standard suit of even Heavy EBA. Honestly, the physical skill penalties for wearing EBA have always puzzled me. That stuff shouldn't impair you at all. Its so rediculously light, and doesn't prevent you from moving in any particular way (as the joints almost always tend to be made of the flexible MDC fabrics).

If you can ride a Skycycle in Heavy Dead Boy armor, you can pilot a robot.

As for wearing Power Armor over EBA? No, not unless its built specifically for it (like the GB's Pilot Suit); Power Armor is something you wear instead of regular armor.

As for wearing Power Armor and piloting a robot? General rule, no. There are a few possible exceptions, but it would be GM-approval land (the Coyote, i think its called, is light enough that you can literally wear regular old clothes over it and conceal it, so i have to imagine its not that restrictive and you could probably pilot a robot in it).

As for other vehicles - it would depend on the vehicle and the space inside the pilots compartment. A tank or APC, -maybe- you could wear smaller power armors and still pilot them, depending on the particular vehicle. (A Mark V i'd say you could, the pilots compartment is quite large, so smaller PAs (ironically, nothing the CS makes other than the Smiling Jack with its jet pack/wings removed) might be able to pilot it (well, Heavy Full Conversion Borgs can, so....) The Iron Heart tanks, no way (theyre about as tight as modern tanks, which means fairly tight), the CS Linebacker - maybe (its pretty big, and the entire front face slides up to allow the crew to enter). The IAR-2, a SAM can stand in the top cupola and man the rail gun there (its called out in the description) but id say they cant get into the pilots compartment (wings and pack make it too big).

But general rule.. no PA piloting a vehicle or robot. Exceptions on a GM basis for really small PA like the Coyote.

Quote:
See Trekker pilot EBA, NG2 page 59. As far as I know, this is the only EBA that mentions that it has no piloting penalty.


There are also none that mention a piloting penalty, so... not sure what your point is here.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:29 pm
  

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H.P. Hovercraft wrote:
Can the Robot's control station (buttons, levers, triggers, handles, etc.) take the stress of (even light) Robotic PS, or does the char just end up breaking them?


Well, Heavy Full Conversion Borgs can pilot tanks and APCs, and i see no reason the control surfaces of a Robot would be built to any less of a standard (and likely a lot of that stuff is modular).

Quote:
Another thing to keep in mind is what a PA's exhaust (if any)

may do inside an ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED cabin.........sure, Billy can run his PA inside the Robot vehicle, but the rest of the crew dies of carbon monoxide poisoning..........oops!


Im struggling to think of a single PA that would have an exhaust that wasn't related to its thrusters (if any). If they run on the magical PocketNuke(tm) technology, there is no exhaust. Similarly, SolidOX has no exhaust... and the few that are left run on batteries. So i dont think that would be an issue unless you lit off thrusters (or weapons).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:24 am
  

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It really would be a GM call.
Generally I would think heavy armor or even bulky armor would not be a good idea for most robots because they would interfere with controls.

I think most robot crews if they have storage space would place the armor in storage so it does not get in the way. It is just more comfortable that way and would allow better use of controls.

At the very least the probably remove armor gloves so they can feel the controls.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:49 am
  

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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
Are group is having another debate on whether or not robot pilots should be able to wear heavy body armor or small power armor such as Norther Gun's Sabre armor while in a piloted robot. What do all of you say.. What does your campaign allow?? 8)


As with others, I've always used "What seems to be the most reasonable ruling in this particular case?" to guide me. I'm not going to allow a SAMAS inside a GB. The more it looks like a suit of clothing, the more things you're going to be able to pilot while wearing it. You're not going to pilot an APC while inside a Glitterboy, for example, it's just not reasonable to think you should be able to. (though, reasonable is a lot like common sense, everyone measures it differently.) There are a lot of EBA that will fit inside nearly all power armor, unless that power armor is the size of EBA, which a lot of them are. Most EBA for example wouldn't fit inside a SAMAS, it's just too tight, the SAMAS is very much like a suit of EBA itself. Some of those nEBA clothes from NG2, like the Huntsman's Choice and Streetwolf are clothing plus the equivalent of a motorcycle helmet, so will fit inside EBA (minus the helmet).

When I'm looking at it, I really don't care how much MDC any of it has, I care about the sizes of everything involved. I don't think it's reasonable to fit a Bullfrog inside a Beach Stormer, though you might fit a Mudskipper in there, so I'd probably allow it, though in this particular case, I'd likely assign an addition -5% penalty to pilot because of the flippers. Go ahead, try driving your car in swimming flippers (no, really, please don't, I don't want to get blamed for someone killing a bus full of school kids).

All of the bonuses and penalties of each suit successfully worn apply, so this is something that you're not likely to want to do much of. A 5% penalty to piloting checks is pretty easy to deal with. Trying to wear a Cannonball inside a Deep Zone Walker is a -21% to pilot checks, not so easy to ignore, even assuming that I'd let you do it since the Cannonball looks to be a little bit bigger than the Deep Zone. If you then got inside a GB, in addition to your -21% to pilot checks on the GB, and you then tried to pilot an APC, I would assign at least an additional -10% to that check, so you're then at -31% to pilot, that's a lot harder to ignore, though higher level characters and really lucky players may still be able to do it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:37 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
There are also none that mention a piloting penalty, so... not sure what your point is here.


All armors have these lines:
Mobility: Good mobility, -(something)% to Climb, Prowl, Swim, Acrobatics and similar physical skills/performance.

I call piloting a heavy vehicle a skill with phyisical leanings . Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.
You talk about an armor with hands free, no EBA has that, they all have gloves..

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Power Armor i get, but... why would "Heavy" EBA be an issue? ("Heavy" being a purely "as compared to lighter armor" distinction, as even most Heavy EBA is only ~25lbs).


Heavyer armor also gets bulky. penalty's on skills get bigger.
Your arms won't fit on rest, legs take more room, and so on.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:31 pm
  

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Sohisohi wrote:
I'm not very knowledgeable with RoboTech, but I think they have mech/walkers for a giant race. So you might be able to swap out the sand crawler for a walker mecha.

Robotech and Macross 2 RPGs do include mecha for giants (>30ft range to boot), though they are of the blur-line power armor/robot vehicle type.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:49 pm
  

D-Bee

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sanka wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
There are also none that mention a piloting penalty, so... not sure what your point is here.


All armors have these lines:
Mobility: Good mobility, -(something)% to Climb, Prowl, Swim, Acrobatics and similar physical skills/performance.

I call piloting a heavy vehicle a skill with phyisical leanings.


So, you make something up that is not present in the rules.

Quote:
Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.


Why? I can drive just fine with no impairment wearing a pair of period maile gloves, which are a fair sight more restrictive than any pair of gloves you care to name. Heavy FCBs can drive vehicles just fine (they ALL get Pilot Tanks & APCs).

Quote:
You talk about an armor with hands free,


When do i do that? Do you think a gothic plate harness has free hands? I assure you it does not. If you're doing HMB or the like (where they fight with blunted, real steel weapons), you'd wear period appropriate hand protection - usually maile gloves under a clamshell gauntlet or articulated plate gauntlent depending on period. Even the earliest forms of plate had hanf clamshells that covered the back of your hand (your fingers being more protected by the quillons on your weapon). FAR more restrictive than anything EBA does to your fingers. And yet i can still drive with them on (the articulated gauntlets would make things... interesting because you'd have to turn your wrists to operate the gear shift (i drive a stick), but thats about it) with no impairment. I typically did not wear the articulated gauntlets because the type of re-enactment i was doing (SCA) required all of your single handed weapons to have large welded steel hand-baskets for protection, so the gauntlets wouldn't fit and weren't necessary. Only exceptions were for polearms, where the gauntlets would not be an issue.

Quote:
no EBA has that, they all have gloves..


That dont impair you from firing a weapon, wielding a melee weapon, using any skills that require fine dexterity, nothing.

Quote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Power Armor i get, but... why would "Heavy" EBA be an issue? ("Heavy" being a purely "as compared to lighter armor" distinction, as even most Heavy EBA is only ~25lbs).


Heavyer armor also gets bulky. penalty's on skills get bigger.


25lbs is not bulky. Not in any way. The penalties on skills get bigger, sure... but for no particular reason other than game balance. NONE of the EBA shown, with the possible excepetion of the super-heavy suits meant for Juicers and the like (where they actually get quite bulky looking/with large protrusions & spikes and are quite heavy compared to other EBA, sometimes over 60lbs) should give you any penalties to physical skills. Its lightweight (25-30lbs, spread out over and clamped down to your limbs), flexible and doesn't prevent movement of your limbs in any particular direction, unlike medieval armors (or even some modern body armors).

And, again, outside of your personal canon, it doesn't give a penalty to piloting skills. No armor does. So even though it provides penalties to physical skills (which i disagree with but is RAW and i can at least understand why Kev went with it), it doesn't provide penalties to piloting. It wouldn't impair you in any way shape or form from operating a pair of foot pedals and a pair of joysticks (which we can see in the NG books is the control scheme for at least several of the robots) or pressing buttons on the control deck in front of you.

Quote:
Your arms won't fit on rest, legs take more room, and so on.


There are only a VERY few armors that are actually bigger like this. NONE of the EBA listed makes you significantly bigger. NONE of them are significantly thicker than others. Hell, Plastic Man is a lot bulkier than any of the Heavy Armor shown. Given that, at best, EBA makes you just a few inches bigger in any dimension, any cockpit is going to fit, because the cockpit has to be able to fit pilots of many sizes. If you're 5'10. and you put on EBA and it makes you 6'1, you're not going to suddenly "Not fit" in the cockpit - because the cockpit has to be able to accept pilots of any reasonable human size (so 5'-nothing to almost 7 feet) to cater to most human(s/humanoids). So unless you're riding the absolute limit of the cockpit's size and THEN strap on armor that somehow makes you even bigger... its simply not going not going to be an issue.

And thats all assuming that robot cockpits aren't meant to be sized up even bigger, which they likely are, since several D-bee races make excellent pilots and come in at bigger than the average human, so NG designs, at the least, probably take that into account.

Back to the OPs question, though, to sum up what i said earlier:

EBA under PA: No, unless its specifically designed as such (rare; the Glitter Boy Pilot Suit is one example)

EBA in a Vehicle: Easily, yes. Tank crews aren't riding around in their jammies.

EBA in a Robot: 95% yes. Again, vehicle crews aren't riding around in their undies. There might be exceptions for the small robots (I think the Jaeger in Triax is called a Robot, but its clearly shown that you wear it like PA, no armor underneath) that clearly have no room, but those are obvious exceptions and fairly rare.

PA in a Vehicle: Maybe. Super small PAs, answer is almost likely always yes (like the Coyote) as they barely make you bigger, and most ground vehicles are equipped that a Full Conversion Borg can drive them, so a small PA (MOST of the new PAs in the NG books, likely, that are just body-armor types) can probably drive most vehicles. Itll be a GM call based on how big the drivers compartment is, but chances are high that if a FCB can drive it, a guy in a man-sized PA without any obvious bulky protrusions probably can.

PA in a Robot: Probably not. There will be exceptions for the super-small things like the Coyote, but those will be super small units like the Coyote and light exoskeletons. Anything with built in weapons and large protrusions is right out. This will be a GM call.

Honestly, the winner here is the Coyote. Since it is so small (it barely makes you bigger at all - you can conceal it just by wearing clothes one or two sizes too big!) you can almost assuredly wear it anywhere you'd wear EBA.

Provided you can take Pilot: RPA, of course. Many classes cant. (No Borg OCC can, for instance).

But if you're a Robot Pilot/Crewman looking to have maximum protection if your 'Bot gets trashed.... MDC fatigues under a Coyote, wearing a set of MDC fatigues on the outside seems like your best bet.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:19 pm
  

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sanka wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.


Why? I can drive just fine with no impairment wearing a pair of period maile gloves, which are a fair sight more restrictive than any pair of gloves you care to name. Heavy FCBs can drive vehicles just fine (they ALL get Pilot Tanks & APCs).


a giant walking robot, even without functioning manipulator hands, is gonna be a lot more complex to handle than anything that rolls on the ground.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:46 pm
  

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not sure where anyone is getting the idea that 25 lbs of body armour is not bulky. just because it is light doesn't mean it isn't big.

it's also going to seriously dampen your sense of touch.

and sure, you can drive with plate armour on. that doesn't mean it isn't making you a worse driver at all. i haven't seen anyone suggest you get -80% to skill checks, or that you must make a skill check just to perform basic functions in driving, just that you'd take a penalty for doing it, and the assumption that because you haven't crashed you wouldn't be better at driving without the armour is nonsense. there are people who drive drunk and don't crash, after all; should we assume that alcohol doesn't impair your driving skills just because some people get lucky?

plate armour (including MDC plate armour) is going to limit your mobility. that doesn't mean you aren't going to be able to move, it just means you can't move as much as someone who isn't wearing the armour. you still have most of your mobility, which is why the armour only gives a penalty to things like doing backflips or climbing rather than making it impossible, but you still only have *most* of your mobility, not all of it.

being jammed into what is likely a small area while being wider than you normally are, and probably being much less comfortable than you normally are is likely to have an impact on your ability to function in that tight area. buttons that are placed close together sized for human fingers are going to be hard to press. levers that you would not normally hit will be moved as you shift your body, and you won't be as likely to feel it because you're literally wearing something that is specifically designed to dampen that impact down as much as possible. the materials that make your armour protect you from explosions are going to reduce your ability to feel what the machine is doing. a helmet will impede your visibility and hearing, even if only a little bit. the padding and plates will make it harder to move.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:16 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
not sure where anyone is getting the idea that 25 lbs of body armour is not bulky. just because it is light doesn't mean it isn't big.

it's also going to seriously dampen your sense of touch.

and sure, you can drive with plate armour on. that doesn't mean it isn't making you a worse driver at all. i haven't seen anyone suggest you get -80% to skill checks, or that you must make a skill check just to perform basic functions in driving, just that you'd take a penalty for doing it, and the assumption that because you haven't crashed you wouldn't be better at driving without the armour is nonsense. there are people who drive drunk and don't crash, after all; should we assume that alcohol doesn't impair your driving skills just because some people get lucky?

plate armour (including MDC plate armour) is going to limit your mobility. that doesn't mean you aren't going to be able to move, it just means you can't move as much as someone who isn't wearing the armour. you still have most of your mobility, which is why the armour only gives a penalty to things like doing backflips or climbing rather than making it impossible, but you still only have *most* of your mobility, not all of it.

being jammed into what is likely a small area while being wider than you normally are, and probably being much less comfortable than you normally are is likely to have an impact on your ability to function in that tight area. buttons that are placed close together sized for human fingers are going to be hard to press. levers that you would not normally hit will be moved as you shift your body, and you won't be as likely to feel it because you're literally wearing something that is specifically designed to dampen that impact down as much as possible. the materials that make your armour protect you from explosions are going to reduce your ability to feel what the machine is doing. a helmet will impede your visibility and hearing, even if only a little bit. the padding and plates will make it harder to move.

My army issue body armor is 16 pounds and was bulky as heck. Adds like 3 inches to front and back. The water wrings add about 2 inches on the upper arms. Some times I hit the side plates when I move my arms. The bulk and restriction of movements makes it harder to put on the seat belt.

And that was just a half suit chest and upper arms. A full suit would probably be around 25 pounds. And that is with modern material MDC material is suppose to lighter than conventional armor.

Looking the image of the Crusader EBA 24 pounds it does look like it would be bulky.

_________________
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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:11 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
Orin J. wrote:
sanka wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.


Why? I can drive just fine with no impairment wearing a pair of period maile gloves, which are a fair sight more restrictive than any pair of gloves you care to name. Heavy FCBs can drive vehicles just fine (they ALL get Pilot Tanks & APCs).


a giant walking robot, even without functioning manipulator hands, is gonna be a lot more complex to handle than anything that rolls on the ground.


Nothing in canon supports that theory. In fact, illiterate mooks can pilot them and make them do jumping backflips and leap kicks.

In fact, from what we can plainly see of all the robot cockpits that are detailed (in the NG books and Triax 2).. its a pair of foot pedals and a pair of joysticks. Maybe with a console in front of them that has some buttons on it (but not always, as at least one of the Triax bots that is shown, and i think 2 of the NG bots, have clear front cockpits).

Balance/stride etc is all maintained by the computers, rather like modern fighter planes, where it is all fly-by-computer. Youre not directly controlling any of the control surfaces on an F-22. The computer takes your input and smooths it out and makes hundreds or thousands of micro-corrections every second.

When you want the robot to walk, you simulate a walking motion with the foot pedals, but you arent determining where and at what angle to place every footstep - the computer is. When you want to run, you do the same motion faster. When you want to jump, you lift both feet up quickly (or maybe push down quickly) which signals to the computer to jump. Its algorithms make that happen. When you want to move the arms, the joysticks on the sides slide back and forth along a rail (you can see that they are set up on like this on the cockpit shot of one of the NG bots; if you want a good "in motion" look at what this would be like, check out the Macross Plus OAV (not sure if the same shot is in the condensed movie version or not) - When Isamu wants to use the arms on the YF-19 Prototype (and the VF-11D he's piloting earlier, when the YF-19 is getting repaired), he grips the control sticks and slides them back and forwards along a control rail; when he wants to open the hand, the individual rings on the control stick that are around each finger lift in and out to control if the hand is closed or open, and can move single digits if needed. He uses the foot pedals to make it walk (and jump), and the foot pedals control the vectored thrust when it is in Fighter mode).

There's nothing about any of the EBA, other than the aforementioned ones that -actually- have spikes/protrusions/large slabs of armor (and those are generally meant for augmented types) that would prevent any of these movements or even impair them. And while we're at it - we KNOW NG makes a set of EBA for pilots, and if you look at it, its actually bulkier/bigger around the shoulders/chest/head/arms than a lot of the so-called "Heavy" EBA. So its not even a matter of "can you pilot in EBA" - because the answer is clearly "yes" - it just becomes a question of "does that heavy armor actually impair you more than the medium and light armors for piloting" - which, unless your answer is "yes, it just magicaly does even though its visibly less bulky and doesn't impair the movements required to pilot", is... no, no it doesn't.

Piloting a robot or PA surely takes specific training (so you know what to expect to happen and how it will "feel" when you're moving it around, jump, etc, how the robot will react when given specific commands), but it isn't really very "complicated" - you dont have to hold 3 controls with 2 hands, one with your tongue, and four with your feet and legs just to make the thing move. (Honestly, if were writing Rifts, piloting anything more complicated than exoskeletal PA would require a headjack and half of it or more would be direct interface/though control, but thats neither here nor there).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:17 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Posts: 386
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
sanka wrote:
Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.


Why? I can drive just fine with no impairment wearing a pair of period maile gloves, which are a fair sight more restrictive than any pair of gloves you care to name. Heavy FCBs can drive vehicles just fine (they ALL get Pilot Tanks & APCs).


Yes, you can drive a car nearly as well with the most hand-hindering mobility penalizing coverings possible. If it can be driven half-blind and with a hook for a hand and a peg for a leg, then, yeah, that vehicle is simple enough to operate with a metal mitten on your hands. Then again, Cars are about the easiest vehicles to operate. okay, well, maybe bicycle and skateboard would compete for that position, but, yeah, any moron can drive a car (and quite a few do!). Now try wearing those same armored mittens and fly a plane or helicopter. Not everything is as easy to operate as a car. sometimes, that manual dexterity actually matters. I get what you're saying about armor, it's not as restrictive and is commonly believed. I've worn both the clam shell style gauntlets as well as the fully articulated style. I wouldn't wear either of them while piloting a submarine (Yes, this is something that I've done). I wouldn't wear either style while operating a plane (yes, this is something that I've done). It's the buttons and switches that need to be operated while trying to do twenty other things and you have to make sure you get the right ones, and only those right ones. That's not something that's so easily done with just driving gloves on. This is why most pilots don't wear gloves any more, you loose too much tactile feel for the controls. I'm not sure if military pilots still do or not, but I know commercial and private pilots do not. (if military pilots are still wearing gloves, then it's because they still don't have cabin heaters and need them) Submarine pilots also don't wear any kind of gloves for the same reasons, you loose too much tactile feel on the controls, it's harder to tell when you've pushed buttons correctly without looking, etc..

What it comes down to is that if you don't think that operating a vehicle is something that should get that physical skills penalty, cool, you run it that way at your table. I disagree, especially if you're wearing armor inside of armor inside of armor inside a vehicle. The more you are willing to do something absurd, the more you should expect the GM to offer penalties for doing so.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:45 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 5908
Location: Clone Lab 27
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
sanka wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.


Why? I can drive just fine with no impairment wearing a pair of period maile gloves, which are a fair sight more restrictive than any pair of gloves you care to name. Heavy FCBs can drive vehicles just fine (they ALL get Pilot Tanks & APCs).


a giant walking robot, even without functioning manipulator hands, is gonna be a lot more complex to handle than anything that rolls on the ground.


Nothing in canon supports that theory. In fact, illiterate mooks can pilot them and make them do jumping backflips and leap kicks.

In fact, from what we can plainly see of all the robot cockpits that are detailed (in the NG books and Triax 2).. its a pair of foot pedals and a pair of joysticks. Maybe with a console in front of them that has some buttons on it (but not always, as at least one of the Triax bots that is shown, and i think 2 of the NG bots, have clear front cockpits).

Balance/stride etc is all maintained by the computers, rather like modern fighter planes, where it is all fly-by-computer. Youre not directly controlling any of the control surfaces on an F-22. The computer takes your input and smooths it out and makes hundreds or thousands of micro-corrections every second.

When you want the robot to walk, you simulate a walking motion with the foot pedals, but you arent determining where and at what angle to place every footstep - the computer is. When you want to run, you do the same motion faster. When you want to jump, you lift both feet up quickly (or maybe push down quickly) which signals to the computer to jump. Its algorithms make that happen. When you want to move the arms, the joysticks on the sides slide back and forth along a rail (you can see that they are set up on like this on the cockpit shot of one of the NG bots; if you want a good "in motion" look at what this would be like, check out the Macross Plus OAV (not sure if the same shot is in the condensed movie version or not) - When Isamu wants to use the arms on the YF-19 Prototype (and the VF-11D he's piloting earlier, when the YF-19 is getting repaired), he grips the control sticks and slides them back and forwards along a control rail; when he wants to open the hand, the individual rings on the control stick that are around each finger lift in and out to control if the hand is closed or open, and can move single digits if needed. He uses the foot pedals to make it walk (and jump), and the foot pedals control the vectored thrust when it is in Fighter mode).

There's nothing about any of the EBA, other than the aforementioned ones that -actually- have spikes/protrusions/large slabs of armor (and those are generally meant for augmented types) that would prevent any of these movements or even impair them. And while we're at it - we KNOW NG makes a set of EBA for pilots, and if you look at it, its actually bulkier/bigger around the shoulders/chest/head/arms than a lot of the so-called "Heavy" EBA. So its not even a matter of "can you pilot in EBA" - because the answer is clearly "yes" - it just becomes a question of "does that heavy armor actually impair you more than the medium and light armors for piloting" - which, unless your answer is "yes, it just magicaly does even though its visibly less bulky and doesn't impair the movements required to pilot", is... no, no it doesn't.

Piloting a robot or PA surely takes specific training (so you know what to expect to happen and how it will "feel" when you're moving it around, jump, etc, how the robot will react when given specific commands), but it isn't really very "complicated" - you dont have to hold 3 controls with 2 hands, one with your tongue, and four with your feet and legs just to make the thing move. (Honestly, if were writing Rifts, piloting anything more complicated than exoskeletal PA would require a headjack and half of it or more would be direct interface/though control, but thats neither here nor there).

First off while a charter can be illiterate he requires a skill to pilot robots. Bringing up literacy is a bit of a red hereon.

A penalty for piloting in armor is covered by the rule on page 301 rue.
The G.M. may also impose a reasonable penalty to any situation where the character faces an unusual or difficult task. A reasonable penalty will range from -5% to -3 0%, but, at times, a dramatically higher penalty may be appropriate. G.M.s, use your discretion and be fair.

Is the art canon of how the controls are set up or is that a case of artistic liberty. (Have you never seen art that did not match the description of things?) DO you think the artist that drew the robot was a mechanical or robot engineer? Sure you could use art to get an idea how things should look in general but at times art is not accurate.

I find it hard to believe they could to the complex maneuvers of a robot with just a couple of peddles and joysticks.
Do you think PA is controlled by just two joystics and a pair of peddles? They use the same skill so the controls should be simular.

Simple put a simple control system would lack the ability to send complex commands required for he actions that a robots can do. This is not like a controller doing reprogrammed moves on command but a system capable of matching complex commands on the fly such as hand to hand combat on uneven terrain or reach down and pick up a box or rock.

If it was just pointing guns and shooting sure you can get just have a couple joystick but you need to be able to command a full range of motion for a punch, squat, controls hands.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:53 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5811
Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
whether or not robot pilots should be able to wear heavy body armor or small power armor
such as Norther Gun's Sabre armor while in a piloted robot

See World Book 5 (Triax and the NGR)

page 93 is a 20ft tall robot (EIR-15 Manned Gargoyle Bot)
"typically reserved for commandos and intelligence officers clad in T-11 enhanced body armor or super trooper power armor"

page 42 (T-31 Super Trooper Power Armor)
"Height: 7 to 8 feet from heat to toe; the shoulder mounted missile launchers add another foot to the overall height"

Pg 42 also mentions "Width: Wings 4 feet" but I think that might've been intended for the immediately preceding "Terrain Hopper" armors, since their rear jet pack resembles wings and they're both only listed as 3ft wide.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:35 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 5
torjones wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
sanka wrote:
Anything that impeades fine motor skills, also hinders you while driving.


Why? I can drive just fine with no impairment wearing a pair of period maile gloves, which are a fair sight more restrictive than any pair of gloves you care to name. Heavy FCBs can drive vehicles just fine (they ALL get Pilot Tanks & APCs).


Yes, you can drive a car nearly as well with the most hand-hindering mobility penalizing coverings possible. If it can be driven half-blind and with a hook for a hand and a peg for a leg, then, yeah, that vehicle is simple enough to operate with a metal mitten on your hands. Then again, Cars are about the easiest vehicles to operate.


Tanks are just as easy. Somewhat easier, even, when you get used to moving around that much bulk/learning how it will respond.

Quote:
okay, well, maybe bicycle and skateboard would compete for that position, but, yeah, any moron can drive a car (and quite a few do!). Now try wearing those same armored mittens and fly a plane or helicopter. Not everything is as easy to operate as a car.


Sure, lots of things are even easier, and medieval gauntlets are FAR more cumbersome than anything on EBA.

Quote:
sometimes, that manual dexterity actually matters. I get what you're saying about armor, it's not as restrictive and is commonly believed. I've worn both the clam shell style gauntlets as well as the fully articulated style. I wouldn't wear either of them while piloting a submarine (Yes, this is something that I've done). I wouldn't wear either style while operating a plane (yes, this is something that I've done). It's the buttons and switches that need to be operated while trying to do twenty other things and you have to make sure you get the right ones, and only those right ones. That's not something that's so easily done with just driving gloves on.


Ill disagree, and i've driven quite a bit of heavy equipment, many of which have lots of buttons and switches (thats why a lot of controls are toggle switches and not buttons) including tanks, bulldozers, various construction equipment that is not nearly as simple as a dozer or backhoe. Try operating a crane. 40+ switches and toggles as well as joysticks to move it around).

You're assuming that anything that goes on your hands massively impairs you. I'm not. Because not all things that go on your hand do so. If you look at the hands on most EBA, the hands are not covered with hard MDC material. Only the back of the hand and maybe the outside of the fingers (but not usually because then youd never fit them in a trigger well). There are already fabric materials that transfer tactile sensation almost 100% (that are used by both Army and Naval special operators in their gloves, as well as modern military flight suits) There's no reason to assume that the advanced materials science of Rifts Earth forgot how to do this.

Its a moot point anyway - you're arguing against something that we know for a fact is true. We've got EBA that is designed to be worn inside a robot, while piloting that robot, that has hand protection. They exist. Full stop. No debate. Its there. The only thing we're left discussing is if somehow "heavy" EBA is more impairing than these medium suits. Given that the difference between "heavy" and "medium" armors is.. made up (since a number of "medium" armors are actually heavier and more bulky than their "heavy" counterparts) entirely out of whole cloth, the logical answer is to default to "no", with reasonable exceptions for armors that are obviously bulky and wouldn't fit (like some of the ornate stuff with horns and protrusions).

Quote:
This is why most pilots don't wear gloves any more, you loose too much tactile feel for the controls. I'm not sure if military pilots still do or not,


They do. Have to, otherwise the pressurizing their flight suit to resist G-forces would be an order of magnitude more difficult. Again, though, it uses special fabrics that transmit tactile feel quite well.

Quote:
but I know commercial and private pilots do not. (if military pilots are still wearing gloves, then it's because they still don't have cabin heaters and need them)


Your experience and mine do not mix. I have three good friends who are pilots, two of whom own their own planes. All of them wear gloves. I have a cousin who flies for American, though we're not close. I could ask him if he wears gloves, but id imagine he doesn't because he doesn't need to in an airliner. But the two guys who own private planes - it gets awfully cold up there with the doors off (or even with the doors on; ive flown with him up to Mackinac Island a number of times, it gets pretty chilly even with the cabin heater.)

Quote:
Submarine pilots also don't wear any kind of gloves for the same reasons, you loose too much tactile feel on the controls, it's harder to tell when you've pushed buttons correctly without looking, etc..


A sub also isn't a giant robot. You aren't in realistic danger of having your Sub KO'ed and then having to get out immediately into a warzone where a pistol could atomize you. In fact, if your Sub is severely damaged.. you're likely not going to get out. So you dont go around buttoned up in armor (which we dont have in a modern navy an yway).

Quote:
What it comes down to is that if you don't think that operating a vehicle is something that should get that physical skills penalty, cool, you run it that way at your table. I disagree, especially if you're wearing armor inside of armor inside of armor inside a vehicle. The more you are willing to do something absurd, the more you should expect the GM to offer penalties for doing so.


The problem is you're inventing a house rule, and i'm not. And you tried to pass your house rule off as the only reasonable conclusion and obviously not a house rule. (If that was you up-thread; if not, my appologies, but responding on my phone makes it hard to check that stuff).

The RAW dont state that there is ANY piloting penalty for wearing body armor. Any assertion that it does is a house rule and needs to be clearly identified as such.

Beyond that, yeah, i disagree totally with your assertion that body armor impairs your ability to pilot anything. MDC body armor (with noted exceptions for stuff that is especially bulky and large and wouldn't fit in a pilots chair) is lighter even than modern military body armor (about 1/3 the weight), doesn't impair movement (all the joints are free to move), and doesn't impair the fingers/hands or feet.

Even further, i dont think it should impart any serious penalties to most physical skills, at least not anywhere near what it does. It wouldn't make it hard to be quiet (the armor doesn't click or clack against itself)/prowl, it wouldnt make it hard to run/jump/move. I can see it imparing swimming (unless its made of bouyant material, its going to drag you down) and a minor penalty to acrobatics (just because you're heavier), but most other physical skills should not be impaired.

I also want to revisit this:

Quote:
especially if you're wearing armor inside of armor inside of armor inside a vehicle.


No one is suggesting that, so the hyperbole isn't helping your argument. At best, theyre suggesting wearing MDC fatigues (which, if you want my opinion, shouldn't exist) under an extremely light PA (the Coyote), inside a robot or vehicle.

Since the Coyote is called out specifically as being basically barely bigger than body armor, this seems fine, as wearing MDC fatigues and regular MDC Body Armor inside a vehicle, robot or otherwise, is 100% intended and was 100% intended from day 1. (at the very least, MDC armor inside of an MDC vehicle was 100% intended, and the MDC fatigues thing became intentional the moment they were introduced).

(Edit: checking the Coyote's description, "The light weight and flexibility of movement combined with modest robotic speed and strength, do, indeed, make the Coyote appealing to combat pilots of all kinds - aircraft, tanks, robots, etc..." - pretty much a statement that you can, in fact, pilot tanks, aircraft, robots, and other vehicles in the Coyote).

You seem to be asserting that anyone who thinks about wearing body armor while also piloting is being a cheese-head trying to game the system in ways that weren't intended and should have penalties heaped upon them. Which is just.. silly. It was intended.

Robot pilots dont go around a battlefield in their skivvies. Neither do tankers, or APC drivers. Thats been true since the very first day Rifts existed. Its not even open for debate, as there are 100% canon examples of body armor being worn inside said vehicles going back forever.

The only remaining debate, really, is, "can you do it in Heavy Armor", and thats barely a debate. For APCs/tanks/etc the answer is unequivocally yes (as thats the standard equipment for those classes, and straight-up 9 foot tall, no-tactile-feeling Full Conversion Borgs can do so with NO penalties), the only real question is "what about Robots". And since Robot pilot compartments can fit a guy in Body Armor, and most "heavy" armor is no larger, bulkier, or constricting than the medium armor designed specifically for pilots (in fact, if you look at the Northern Gun pilots EBA, it looks bulkier than some of their heavy armors, and quite a bit bulkier than CS armor), the reasonable answer is "yes, for the most part."

The pilots seats are adjustable to fit people of just about any size, including D-bees like Wolfen, so the few inches that armor adds to your size cant reasonably be a restriction.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:50 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7236
the question is not "can you do it". the question is "does it impair your ability to do it".

it isn't like anyone said that the moment you put on gloves, the robot stops working entirely, catches on fire, and starts up a subroutine to mock the insolence of the person trying to wear armour inside it.

merely that it's going to interfere. you'll still be able to pilot. in most situations, it won't make a huge difference; you're not making pilot skill checks to walk along with the column from one base to another, or to perform most mundane tasks. but in a tight spot, there will be a difference.

and it isn't making something up from scratch. "and similar" leaves it open to discussion what exactly is similar. if the armour makes it harder to pick pockets, it is not unreasonable to say that operating the controls for a vehicle can be "similar" to the fine motions required to operate a complicated machine in a tight space.

and again, combat armour can't plausibly be designed to transfer feeling. this stuff keeps anti-tank weaponry from crushing your hand into paste. it is not exactly the same thing as a pair of SDC fabric gloves that would struggle to stop a pocket knife from hurting you.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:32 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Posts: 386
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
torjones wrote:

Yes, you can drive a car nearly as well with the most hand-hindering mobility penalizing coverings possible. If it can be driven half-blind and with a hook for a hand and a peg for a leg, then, yeah, that vehicle is simple enough to operate with a metal mitten on your hands. Then again, Cars are about the easiest vehicles to operate.


Tanks are just as easy. Somewhat easier, even, when you get used to moving around that much bulk/learning how it will respond.


I've been in a couple different tanks, never gotten a chance to drive or fire one, but I've been in a Bradley and a Sherman. There really isn't a whole lot of room inside and it certainly isn't as roomy as the movies make it appear. To drive a Sherman, yes, the controls are fairly simple and straight forward. To operate the sights and periscopes or the radio? that's a bit more complicated. and that's just the 80 year old Sherman. Controls are much more complex and advanced in the Abrams of today, since they are mobile computers with a big honkin' gun. Again, this isn't the "hey, Let's make the tank move" kind of operating, as I said, that's fairly simple, two great big levers and a pair of pedals, it's all the other controls that it takes the rest of the crew to operate the all the other features of the tank.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Sure, lots of things are even easier, and medieval gauntlets are FAR more cumbersome than anything on EBA.

That's one possibility, but you've provided no evidence to support that conclusion. It's equally likely that they would be just as cumbersome as any medieval or modern protective gloves. You're extrapolating things the way you want to absent an actual book rule, I'm doing the same thing in a different way. I believe my way of extrapolating the information is more based in RAW.

torjones wrote:
Sometimes, that manual dexterity actually matters. I get what you're saying about armor, it's not as restrictive and is commonly believed. I've worn both the clam shell style gauntlets as well as the fully articulated style. I wouldn't wear either of them while piloting a submarine (Yes, this is something that I've done). I wouldn't wear either style while operating a plane (yes, this is something that I've done). It's the buttons and switches that need to be operated while trying to do twenty other things and you have to make sure you get the right ones, and only those right ones. That's not something that's so easily done with just driving gloves on.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I'll disagree, and i've driven quite a bit of heavy equipment, many of which have lots of buttons and switches (thats why a lot of controls are toggle switches and not buttons) including tanks, bulldozers, various construction equipment that is not nearly as simple as a dozer or backhoe. Try operating a crane. 40+ switches and toggles as well as joysticks to move it around).


Heavy machinery is not something I've had the opportunity to mess around with, so I'll take your word that it's complicated, however, that just goes to my argument.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You're assuming that anything that goes on your hands massively impairs you. I'm not. Because not all things that go on your hand do so. If you look at the hands on most EBA, the hands are not covered with hard MDC material. Only the back of the hand and maybe the outside of the fingers (but not usually because then youd never fit them in a trigger well). There are already fabric materials that transfer tactile sensation almost 100% (that are used by both Army and Naval special operators in their gloves, as well as modern military flight suits) There's no reason to assume that the advanced materials science of Rifts Earth forgot how to do this.

No, I'm not assuming anything. I'm flat out stating that anything you put on your hands, even the thinnest of gloves, does impair you to some degree, and the thicker the glove, the more it impairs your sense of touch, say like being covered in hard plastic or metal, the more difficult it is to operate complex machinery. Even surgical gloves offer some impairment, however, the major benefit that they offer, extra grip while slick when covered in blood, outweighs the tiny loss in sensation.
I don't know why you're even trying to argue this point, since anyone who has ever worn a pair of gloves will be able to confirm this as truth. Put on a pair of warm winter gloves, and try writing. Try typing. It's not as easily done as when not wearing the gloves. The more complex the thing you're trying to operate, and the less room you have to do it in, the harder it gets. I'll admit that many of the EBA from NG2 appear to be the "glove with a plate of armor stuck to the back of the hand" type, but many of them also appear to be either motorcycle gauntlets or ski gauntlets. However, having worn all of the above types of gloves, I can tell you that they DO in fact impair you manual dexterity to various degrees.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its a moot point anyway - you're arguing against something that we know for a fact is true. We've got EBA that is designed to be worn inside a robot, while piloting that robot, that has hand protection. They exist. Full stop. No debate. Its there. The only thing we're left discussing is if somehow "heavy" EBA is more impairing than these medium suits. Given that the difference between "heavy" and "medium" armors is.. made up (since a number of "medium" armors are actually heavier and more bulky than their "heavy" counterparts) entirely out of whole cloth, the logical answer is to default to "no", with reasonable exceptions for armors that are obviously bulky and wouldn't fit (like some of the ornate stuff with horns and protrusions).

I don't think it is moot, I think it's very relevant. The existence of a few suits of EBA that are specifically made to be compatible with certain models of robots does not in any way imply that all suits of EBA are usable inside all robots. Such a claim that they are has no rational basis. Then you turn around and argue my point? I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. I also assume a default of "no" with certain exceptions. Yes, you can wear an MDC jumpsuit under your EBA. Yes, some EBAs can be worn inside some Robots. Yes, some Robots can be operated inside some Vehicles. However, if you're going to do that, expect any penalties you've stacked up to apply to any relevant skill checks.


torjones wrote:
This is why most pilots don't wear gloves any more, you loose too much tactile feel for the controls. I'm not sure if military pilots still do or not,


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
They do. Have to, otherwise the pressurizing their flight suit to resist G-forces would be an order of magnitude more difficult. Again, though, it uses special fabrics that transmit tactile feel quite well.

I dispute your assertion that pilots have to wear gloves in all cases. Pilots of SOME airplanes need to because they still don't have sufficient cabin comfort to forgo the gloves. I've worn those Nomex flight gloves, have a pair, USAF Surplus. They also make for good shooting gloves, but I still prefer my deerskin gloves for driving grip. It may interest you to know that the gloves have no pressurization features, they are strictly warmth and grip. They have nothing to do with the speed-jeans (g-suit) that pilots wear to counter g-forces. Oh, and that "special fabrics" thing you mentioned is sheepskin. A bit more supple than deerskin.

torjones wrote:
but I know commercial and private pilots do not. (if military pilots are still wearing gloves, then it's because they still don't have cabin heaters and need them)

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Your experience and mine do not mix. I have three good friends who are pilots, two of whom own their own planes. All of them wear gloves. I have a cousin who flies for American, though we're not close. I could ask him if he wears gloves, but id imagine he doesn't because he doesn't need to in an airliner. But the two guys who own private planes - it gets awfully cold up there with the doors off (or even with the doors on; ive flown with him up to Mackinac Island a number of times, it gets pretty chilly even with the cabin heater.)

Hmmm... Pretty sure I did mention that as an exception to pilots not wearing gloves. If it wasn't clear enough, I apologize for my failure to spell it out explicitly enough. I suggest you might want to check some youtube videos because there are quite a few pilots there who make videos. Trent Palmer, Mojogrip, Mentour Pilot, Mike Patey, Flight Chops, Cory Robin, Jason Sneed, Peter Sripol, and dozens more. You'll see them flying, even in cold weather, and not wearing gloves. Trent Palmer often includes video of himself while he's flying, you can see his hands, and you can see snow on the ground that he's flying into, and the story is the same with all those other guys too. The last time I saw a pilot put on gloves to fly his bird was open cockpit. I think your experience is the exception, the outlier, not the general case.

torjones wrote:
Submarine pilots also don't wear any kind of gloves for the same reasons, you loose too much tactile feel on the controls, it's harder to tell when you've pushed buttons correctly without looking, etc..


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
A sub also isn't a giant robot. You aren't in realistic danger of having your Sub KO'ed and then having to get out immediately into a warzone where a pistol could atomize you. In fact, if your Sub is severely damaged.. you're likely not going to get out. So you dont go around buttoned up in armor (which we dont have in a modern navy an yway).

You have misunderstood the point I was trying to make there. It's not that a submarine is a giant robot, it's another example of a complex vehicle to operate, one I wouldn't want to operate while wearing gloves of any kind that I didn't need to.


torjones wrote:

What it comes down to is that if you don't think that operating a vehicle is something that should get that physical skills penalty, cool, you run it that way at your table. I disagree, especially if you're wearing armor inside of armor inside of armor inside a vehicle. The more you are willing to do something absurd, the more you should expect the GM to offer penalties for doing so.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The problem is you're inventing a house rule, and I'm not. And you tried to pass your house rule off as the only reasonable conclusion and obviously not a house rule. (If that was you up-thread; if not, my apologies, but responding on my phone makes it hard to check that stuff).

The RAW dont state that there is ANY piloting penalty for wearing body armor. Any assertion that it does is a house rule and needs to be clearly identified as such.

Well, here I'm going to have to disagree, because there are clear rules as written that state that there is a penalty involved in wearing certain suits of EBA, "-5% penalty on skills like acrobatics, climbing, prowl, swimming, and other skills that require high mobility." Other suits offer different penalties, and the wording differs slightly from suit to suit and book to book, but the basic idea is you get a penalty because the EBA is impeding your ability to move naturally. You can make a ruling that the penalty mentioned ONLY applies to those skills listed, or you can make a ruling that the penalty applies to other skills as well. I suppose you might call that a house rule, if you want to be pedantic about it, but if you're going to be that pedantic about it, then you would also have to acknowledge that your own ruling is also a house rule.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Beyond that, yeah, i disagree totally with your assertion that body armor impairs your ability to pilot anything. MDC body armor (with noted exceptions for stuff that is especially bulky and large and wouldn't fit in a pilots chair) is lighter even than modern military body armor (about 1/3 the weight), doesn't impair movement (all the joints are free to move), and doesn't impair the fingers/hands or feet.

That's fine, you don't have to agree with me. You do you. You run your game your way. I think it's fairly clear that it leaves the possibility open for that penalty to be applied to more skills.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Even further, i dont think it should impart any serious penalties to most physical skills, at least not anywhere near what it does. It wouldn't make it hard to be quiet (the armor doesn't click or clack against itself)/prowl, it wouldnt make it hard to run/jump/move. I can see it imparing swimming (unless its made of bouyant material, its going to drag you down) and a minor penalty to acrobatics (just because you're heavier), but most other physical skills should not be impaired.

Now who's inventing house rules?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I also want to revisit this:

Quote:
especially if you're wearing armor inside of armor inside of armor inside a vehicle.


No one is suggesting that, so the hyperbole isn't helping your argument. At best, they're suggesting wearing MDC fatigues (which, if you want my opinion, shouldn't exist) under an extremely light PA (the Coyote), inside a robot or vehicle.

No, it's not hyperbole, it's something that was actually suggested and asked about. And it's interesting that you think MDC Fatigues should exist when the same basic thing has existed for as long as Rifts has existed, or have you forgotten the MDC jumpsuit worn by GB pilots? That such Fatigues are then worn under EBA, and that EBA is then worn inside a small power armor, which is then worn inside a giant robot, which is then worn inside a vehicle. Yeah, that's 5 layers of armor. Yeah, that's more than a little ridiculous. Possible in theory, sure, but anyone trying it in my game is going to be looked at funny and asked if they're sure they want to try something like that. There's a lot of stuff that's possible in theory, but nobody sane would actually try in real life without a very good reason. IN THEORY, it's possible to land an F-14D at full afterburner while missing a wing on a pitching carrier deck. In practice, I'd rather try that landing on actual land.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Since the Coyote is called out specifically as being basically barely bigger than body armor, this seems fine, as wearing MDC fatigues and regular MDC Body Armor inside a vehicle, robot or otherwise, is 100% intended and was 100% intended from day 1. (at the very least, MDC armor inside of an MDC vehicle was 100% intended, and the MDC fatigues thing became intentional the moment they were introduced).

(Edit: checking the Coyote's description, "The light weight and flexibility of movement combined with modest robotic speed and strength, do, indeed, make the Coyote appealing to combat pilots of all kinds - aircraft, tanks, robots, etc..." - pretty much a statement that you can, in fact, pilot tanks, aircraft, robots, and other vehicles in the Coyote).

Agreed. I would absolutely allow someone to wear Coyote armor inside just about any giant robot or vehicle. I wouldn't allow it in armors/robots that blur the line between power armor and giant robot, such as Glitter Boys. I also wouldn't allow EBA to be worn under it, though the MDC Fatigues would be reasonable. Just because THIS combination is possible, does not mean that ALL combinations are possible.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You seem to be asserting that anyone who thinks about wearing body armor while also piloting is being a cheese-head trying to game the system in ways that weren't intended and should have penalties heaped upon them. Which is just.. silly. It was intended.

That is a miss characterization of my position. I am asserting that anyone trying to wear MDC Fatigues inside EBA inside PA inside a Robot inside a vehicle is cheese. Each individual step may be legal according to RAW, but it adds up to something that was clearly never intended.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:01 pm
  

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Body armor? Sure.
Power armor while piloting a bot? No...

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:05 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
Body armor? Sure.
Power armor while piloting a bot? No...


For the most part (99%) you're correct, but the NG Coyote straight up calls out that Robot Pilots wear it.

Given how it barely has more MDC than heavy body armor, not a huge issue.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:12 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
Body armor? Sure.
Power armor while piloting a bot? No...


For the most part (99%) you're correct, but the NG Coyote straight up calls out that Robot Pilots wear it.

Given how it barely has more MDC than heavy body armor, not a huge issue.


The Super Trooper is definitely a bigger issue. I could see allowing it for bots larger than the Manned Gargoyle Bot (21+ feet tall) but not for any smaller bots UNLESS it actually had room for cargo or additional passengers. The EIR-15 has "Cargo: None" so I would assume that any bots designed for humans with cargo space have enough room to fit the Super Trooper.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:42 pm
  

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The amount of unsupported head-canon in this post is staggering.

torjones wrote:
That's one possibility, but you've provided no evidence to support that conclusion. It's equally likely that they would be just as cumbersome as any medieval or modern protective gloves. You're extrapolating things the way you want to absent an actual book rule, I'm doing the same thing in a different way. I believe my way of extrapolating the information is more based in RAW.


That isn't how rules work. In the absence of a rule stating that they ARE cumbersome and impairing, they are not. If they were, the rule book would state as much. It does not. Im not extrapolating anything. Im stating the RAW. YOU are inventing head-canon to support a theory that has no basis in the rules.

torjones wrote:
No, I'm not assuming anything. I'm flat out stating that anything you put on your hands, even the thinnest of gloves, does impair you to some degree, and the thicker the glove, the more it impairs your sense of touch, say like being covered in hard plastic or metal, the more difficult it is to operate complex machinery. Even surgical gloves offer some impairment, however, the major benefit that they offer, extra grip while slick when covered in blood, outweighs the tiny loss in sensation.
I don't know why you're even trying to argue this point, since anyone who has ever worn a pair of gloves will be able to confirm this as truth. Put on a pair of warm winter gloves, and try writing. Try typing. It's not as easily done as when not wearing the gloves.


What an amazing and utterly pointless Strawman.

Quote:
The more complex the thing you're trying to operate, and the less room you have to do it in, the harder it gets. I'll admit that many of the EBA from NG2 appear to be the "glove with a plate of armor stuck to the back of the hand" type, but many of them also appear to be either motorcycle gauntlets or ski gauntlets. However, having worn all of the above types of gloves, I can tell you that they DO in fact impair you manual dexterity to various degrees.


Yes but you're making the head-canon assumption that ANY minor impairment somehow prevents you from being able to operate these machines, when all the evidence we have is that these machines are designed to be operated while wearing armor, or, in many cases, by heavy Cyborgs who have almost NO sense of touch.

Quote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its a moot point anyway - you're arguing against something that we know for a fact is true. We've got EBA that is designed to be worn inside a robot, while piloting that robot, that has hand protection. They exist. Full stop. No debate. Its there. The only thing we're left discussing is if somehow "heavy" EBA is more impairing than these medium suits. Given that the difference between "heavy" and "medium" armors is.. made up (since a number of "medium" armors are actually heavier and more bulky than their "heavy" counterparts) entirely out of whole cloth, the logical answer is to default to "no", with reasonable exceptions for armors that are obviously bulky and wouldn't fit (like some of the ornate stuff with horns and protrusions).


I don't think it is moot, I think it's very relevant. The existence of a few suits of EBA that are specifically made to be compatible with certain models of robots


More baseless headcanon. There is no evidence of any kind - none - that these suits are "specifically made to be compatible with certain models of robots". None. You literally made that up out of whole cloth.

Quote:
does not in any way imply that all suits of EBA are usable inside all robots. Such a claim that they are has no rational basis.


The problem is your assumption is reversed. There is no indication of any kind that it doesnt apply to all suits. We know you can pilot robots and vehicles wearing EBA. There is no rule saying that it only applies to specific EBA. Full stop. Anything else is your headcanon.

Quote:
Then you turn around and argue my point? I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. I also assume a default of "no" with certain exceptions.


I dont assume a default of no. I assume a default of "Yes", with some exceptions (models of armor that are OBVIOUSLY too big or bulky to fit in a pilots seat).

Quote:
Yes, you can wear an MDC jumpsuit under your EBA. Yes, some EBAs can be worn inside some Robots.


Not some. All. Unless you can point to a rule saying otherwise. The only rule we have is "yes, you can".

Quote:
Yes, some Robots can be operated inside some Vehicles.


Uhhh... no one said this. Except you, apparently. Power Armor, maybe (some units call out that they are small enough to be used by pilots, and by some i mean "one"; and maybe 2-3 others in the same book that are about the same size (but id say no as they definitely look to have locked joints and heavily armored hands) by interpolation)

Quote:
However, if you're going to do that, expect any penalties you've stacked up to apply to any relevant skill checks.


Right, the part you're having trouble coming to grips with, apparently, is that no such penalties exist, RAW. Not one. Zero. Zilch. Nadda. Noneski. You'd be inventing them out of whole cloth.

torjones wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
They do. Have to, otherwise the pressurizing their flight suit to resist G-forces would be an order of magnitude more difficult. Again, though, it uses special fabrics that transmit tactile feel quite well.


I dispute your assertion that pilots have to wear gloves in all cases. Pilots of SOME airplanes need to because they still don't have sufficient cabin comfort to forgo the gloves. I've worn those Nomex flight gloves, have a pair, USAF Surplus. They also make for good shooting gloves, but I still prefer my deerskin gloves for driving grip. It may interest you to know that the gloves have no pressurization features, they are strictly warmth and grip. They have nothing to do with the speed-jeans (g-suit) that pilots wear to counter g-forces. Oh, and that "special fabrics" thing you mentioned is sheepskin. A bit more supple than deerskin.


Uh, no, i assure you the flight suit of an F-22 pilot is sealed at the hands, and does not use sheepskin gloves. Its a purely synthetic material. Anything USAF surplus you've used is 20 years out of date. The gloves also have electrical contractive members in them to help keep blood flowing in the hands. Modern flight suits are quite a bit more advanced than even flights suits from 10-15 years ago. And we werent talking about "some pilots", we were talking about fighter pilots.


torjones wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The problem is you're inventing a house rule, and I'm not. And you tried to pass your house rule off as the only reasonable conclusion and obviously not a house rule. (If that was you up-thread; if not, my apologies, but responding on my phone makes it hard to check that stuff).

The RAW dont state that there is ANY piloting penalty for wearing body armor. Any assertion that it does is a house rule and needs to be clearly identified as such.

Well, here I'm going to have to disagree, because there are clear rules as written that state that there is a penalty involved in wearing certain suits of EBA, "-5% penalty on skills like acrobatics, climbing, prowl, swimming, and other skills that require high mobility."


Hmm i didn't see "piloting rolls" in there. This is, again, you inventing a rule. Straight up.

Quote:
Other suits offer different penalties, and the wording differs slightly from suit to suit and book to book, but the basic idea is you get a penalty because the EBA is impeding your ability to move naturally. You can make a ruling that the penalty mentioned ONLY applies to those skills listed,


That isn't a ruling. Thats the rule. I have no idea why you have such a hard time grasping that.

Quote:
or you can make a ruling that the penalty applies to other skills as well.


You just defined a house rule.

Quote:
I suppose you might call that a house rule, if you want to be pedantic about it, but if you're going to be that pedantic about it, then you would also have to acknowledge that your own ruling is also a house rule.


No, because im not making a ruling. Im stating the rule as printed. The only person being a pedant here is you, desperately trying to insist your head canon is somehow correct.

Quote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Even further, i dont think it should impart any serious penalties to most physical skills, at least not anywhere near what it does. It wouldn't make it hard to be quiet (the armor doesn't click or clack against itself)/prowl, it wouldnt make it hard to run/jump/move. I can see it imparing swimming (unless its made of bouyant material, its going to drag you down) and a minor penalty to acrobatics (just because you're heavier), but most other physical skills should not be impaired.

Now who's inventing house rules?


No one, since im not stating thats a rule, or even a ruling i use at my table. Im stating "that's how i'd write it".

Quote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I also want to revisit this:

Quote:
especially if you're wearing armor inside of armor inside of armor inside a vehicle.


No one is suggesting that, so the hyperbole isn't helping your argument. At best, they're suggesting wearing MDC fatigues (which, if you want my opinion, shouldn't exist) under an extremely light PA (the Coyote), inside a robot or vehicle.


No, it's not hyperbole, it's something that was actually suggested and asked about. And it's interesting that you think MDC Fatigues should exist


I DONT think they should exist. Which i stated plainly. Try reading what i wrote?

Quote:
when the same basic thing has existed for as long as Rifts has existed, or have you forgotten the MDC jumpsuit worn by GB pilots?


Its not a jumpsuit, its a suit of light EBA designed to fit inside the GB. Swing and a miss.

Quote:
That such Fatigues are then worn under EBA, and that EBA is then worn inside a small power armor, which is then worn inside a giant robot, which is then worn inside a vehicle. Yeah, that's 5 layers of armor.


No one suggested that. Again, you're being hyperbolic.

Quote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Since the Coyote is called out specifically as being basically barely bigger than body armor, this seems fine, as wearing MDC fatigues and regular MDC Body Armor inside a vehicle, robot or otherwise, is 100% intended and was 100% intended from day 1. (at the very least, MDC armor inside of an MDC vehicle was 100% intended, and the MDC fatigues thing became intentional the moment they were introduced).

(Edit: checking the Coyote's description, "The light weight and flexibility of movement combined with modest robotic speed and strength, do, indeed, make the Coyote appealing to combat pilots of all kinds - aircraft, tanks, robots, etc..." - pretty much a statement that you can, in fact, pilot tanks, aircraft, robots, and other vehicles in the Coyote).

Agreed. I would absolutely allow someone to wear Coyote armor inside just about any giant robot or vehicle. I wouldn't allow it in armors/robots that blur the line between power armor and giant robot, such as Glitter Boys. I also wouldn't allow EBA to be worn under it, though the MDC Fatigues would be reasonable. Just because THIS combination is possible, does not mean that ALL combinations are possible.


More precisely, you cant wear PA over ANY EBA unless the system is designed that way (the GB Pilot's suit). Because its worn like armor, just like EBA. IIRC, this is even stated somewhere (GMG, maybe? Im too busy this afternoon to go look. Always do dinner with my grandfather on Thursday so im tied up as soon as im done here making dinner and taking it to his place).

Quote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You seem to be asserting that anyone who thinks about wearing body armor while also piloting is being a cheese-head trying to game the system in ways that weren't intended and should have penalties heaped upon them. Which is just.. silly. It was intended.

That is a miss characterization of my position. I am asserting that anyone trying to wear MDC Fatigues inside EBA inside PA inside a Robot inside a vehicle is cheese. Each individual step may be legal according to RAW, but it adds up to something that was clearly never intended.
[/quote]

I cant think of any robot vehicles that are small enough to be used inside a vehicle, much less pilot it. So, again, you're making a strawman, arguing against something that no one ever said.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:19 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Yes but you're making the head-canon assumption that ANY minor impairment somehow prevents you from being able to operate these machines, when all the evidence we have is that these machines are designed to be operated while wearing armor, or, in many cases, by heavy Cyborgs who have almost NO sense of touch.


lack of evidence is not evidence, and the rules for piloting simply do not take into account the size/race/protection of the user. given the cyborgs are over seven feet tall and a thousand pounds on the average, which is well within the range where armor usually needs to be customized to fit, it's a fairly safe argument that power armors and giant robots simply were never intended to be used by them and the implication was left out as obvious.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:49 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
cyborgs are over seven feet tall and a thousand pounds on the average
well within the range where armor usually needs to be customized to fit
fairly safe argument that
power armors and giant robots simply were never intended to be used by them
and the implication was left out as obvious

We should give polite nods of course to:
    partial conversion cyborgs (some headhunters)
    the VX-320 Cyclops (6'6" 500lbs) on NGR 101
    the VX-635 Prowler (6'8" 500lbs) on NGR 159

The Prowler has his own problems besides 2" more height than a Cyclops (he's 1-handed, with a big chaingun in place... PROBLEMS) but the Cyclops might be worth a consideration as possible PA pilot. He's full conversion but his light assault frame (180MDC) ties the 8ft Slasher but is inferior to 8ft Manhunter (200MDC)

I know I've definitely seen some headhunters who pilot PA but I can't remember if they were partial conversion borgs or not.

A complicated issue since the definition of what constitutes partial conversion seems to have shifted from 1990 to 2005


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:17 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
A complicated issue since the definition of what constitutes partial conversion seems to have shifted from 1990 to 2005


the writing's understanding of most definitions seems to have shifted a few times, which is an ongoing problem for clearing up what's what in the palladium rules systems*.

*and it's a whole bunch of near-identical systems, let's be honest.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:00 pm
  

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Hi, solution idea here. If something like this is up srry but I didn't read every post, too late to do that. Player "I get into my flying titan and then get that into muh leet robotz with skillz man" GM "ok" <random encounter happens> Player "I use muh leetz pew pew lazor to blast that demon in front" GM "ok roll me a pull punch straight roll no bonuses you need 11 or higher" Player "uhm 10, what's this roll for?" GM "You try to press the fire button but smash the console, your weapons capacitor overcharges and shorts out the controls of your robot, it statrs running in circles flailing it's arms about wildly"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:34 pm
  

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The way I see it, there are five categories of armor for the purposes of what we're talking about:
1. Clothes/jumpsuit armors that are soft and often form-fitting and have no movement penalties.
2. Hard Body Armor that has plates and a helmet.
3. Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements.
4. Power Armor.
5. Robots.

And these are my interpretations:
+You can wear soft and form-fitting armor underneath just about anything.
+You can wear hard body armor and pilot a robot.
-You can't wear hard body armor inside power armor unless they're specifically designed to work together (GB pilot armor is a rare example).
-You can't wear exo-skeleton body armor and operate most robots unless the robot is gigantic and/or very spacious inside (like a Behemoth Explorer).
-You can't wear power armor and operate robots.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:33 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
The way I see it, there are five categories of armor for the purposes of what we're talking about:
1. Clothes/jumpsuit armors that are soft and often form-fitting and have no movement penalties.
2. Hard Body Armor that has plates and a helmet.
3. Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements.
4. Power Armor.
5. Robots.


Uhhm... just so we're clear, you understand "Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements" is the common understanding of what "Power Armor" means, yeah? i'm not clear what's the line you're dividing with there.

guns? is it firepower?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:57 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
The way I see it, there are five categories of armor for the purposes of what we're talking about:
1. Clothes/jumpsuit armors that are soft and often form-fitting and have no movement penalties.
2. Hard Body Armor that has plates and a helmet.
3. Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements.
4. Power Armor.
5. Robots.


Uhhm... just so we're clear, you understand "Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements" is the common understanding of what "Power Armor" means, yeah? i'm not clear what's the line you're dividing with there.

guns? is it firepower?


I'm referring to suits like the Triax T-11, the Coalition bod armor with the huge pauldrons, that kind of stuff. Suits that don't have their own P.S., but rather give a P.S. bonus to the wearer. They're bulkier, but they're not considered full-up power armor, which comes with its own robotic P.S.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:10 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6344
Location: WI
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
The way I see it, there are five categories of armor for the purposes of what we're talking about:
1. Clothes/jumpsuit armors that are soft and often form-fitting and have no movement penalties.
2. Hard Body Armor that has plates and a helmet.
3. Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements.
4. Power Armor.
5. Robots.


Uhhm... just so we're clear, you understand "Exo-skeleton Body Armor that provides physical enhancements" is the common understanding of what "Power Armor" means, yeah? i'm not clear what's the line you're dividing with there.

guns? is it firepower?

Hotrod is referring to what essentially is a hybrid of Heavy Body Armor and Power Armor, they are not very common. Examples:
-Northern Gun's NG-EX10 Gladius (Mercenaries, likely also found in one of the NG WBs)
-Coalition's CA-6EX (CWC, variant also exists for Cyborgs)
-Triax's T-25 (Triax2) and T-11 (Triax&NGR)
-Japan's AT-A15 and IA-130 Body Amor

They are also found listed under Body Armor as opposed to Power Armor in the book.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:38 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Posts: 176
ryokoryu wrote:
Hi, solution idea here. If something like this is up srry but I didn't read every post, too late to do that. Player "I get into my flying titan and then get that into muh leet robotz with skillz man" GM "ok" <random encounter happens> Player "I use muh leetz pew pew lazor to blast that demon in front" GM "ok roll me a pull punch straight roll no bonuses you need 11 or higher" Player "uhm 10, what's this roll for?" GM "You try to press the fire button but smash the console, your weapons capacitor overcharges and shorts out the controls of your robot, it statrs running in circles flailing it's arms about wildly"



:lol: :lol: :lol:
I like it.

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