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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:09 pm
  

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A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:39 pm
  

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a borg is designed to be an entirely MDC structure with the human gibbits protected from impacts from railguns and such so in their case i'd ignore the damage and apply any stuns as normal as their brain gets a bad case of the sloshings. with MDC armors i usually go more by ear of "how designed for impacts would you engineer this, actually?" for damage. although in the case of the SAMAS, which i'm sure a few pilots manage to plow clear into the side of chi-town every year is probably pretty well covered, maybe taking 1/10 or less of the fall damaged again stuns as normal as their body comes to terms with the fact it is still in fact gravity's *****.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:37 pm
  

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Page 12 in the RMB lists falling damage as 1 point of SDC/HP for every 10 ft in height from a fall while in MDC body & power armor. AFAIK that wasn't changed with the RUE.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:26 am
  

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I think hes talking about the armor itself, not the wearer. I.E. if you burn-in your SAMAS at 200mph, yeah, you, yourself will take damage... but does the SAMAS itself take damage, is the question, i believe.

In NG2, a lot of the Power Armors can fall from heights and use thrusters to land safely... if they FAIL, then the armor itself DOES take Mega Damage.. so going by that precedent, yes, MDC objects cratering into the ground from great heights or at great speed take damage.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:22 pm
  

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The rules say 1d6 SDC per 10 feet.

So you roll SDC, divide by 100, round down and that's the damage

Any fall less than 100 SDC damage does 0 MD

if they fall from 1000 feet, roll 100d6, that's effectively 1d6 MD, if you'd rather not roll you 1d6 100 times.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:33 pm
  

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DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Look here:
viewtopic.php?p=1141352#p1141352

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:07 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
In NG2, a lot of the Power Armors can fall from heights and use thrusters to land safely... if they FAIL, then the armor itself DOES take Mega Damage.. so going by that precedent, yes, MDC objects cratering into the ground from great heights or at great speed take damage.

*finds exception on pg 150 Silent Shadow*

*checks Sea Demon on pg 147*

Drop from 301 feet... 50% chance of taking 4D6 MD... what a clunker.

That'd be a mere 30D6 damage (depleting 1 MD ~half the time) for most suits.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mr Prosek wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Actually, just the other day I found an official answer to this in one of the books. Unfortunately, I forget which book and what the answer was. :)

IIRC, it was something like 1 MD per 10' or something.
I'll look it up when I get home.


Xiticix Invasion, p. 16
Talking about falling off of bridges in Xiticix hives/cities:
"Damage is 3d6 SDC/Hit Points or damage per story of height, or one MD per every three stories for Mega-Damage creatures. Plus fallen victims, even MDC characters, lose initiative and two melee actions..."

The damage you receive was from falling onto uneven ground and sharp spikes. Though I did find in the GMG (first printing) on pg 28 under miscellaneous: falling 1d6 per 10 feet. Didn't find anything for MD beings as of yet.


It doesn't say anything about the damage being from uneven ground or sharp spikes, but I can go with that theory since the 3d6 SDC damage is 3x the normal falling damage.

What this means for MDC beings is that they likely need 3x the fall to inflict that amount of damage if they hit normal terrain.
Which means a 90'-100' fall would inflict 1 MD.


I wonder... what if a Xiticix "story" was actually 30ft? I can't remember if they ever explicitly defined that... That's clear up the 3d6/story thing... albeit not the "1 MD per 3D6 dmg" thing.

1 MD per 3d6 works out to 10 MD from 30d6, which is still less than the 14 MD average the poor Sea Demon will take despite slowing a fall with its air boosters.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:31 pm
  

D-Bee

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Axelmania wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
In NG2, a lot of the Power Armors can fall from heights and use thrusters to land safely... if they FAIL, then the armor itself DOES take Mega Damage.. so going by that precedent, yes, MDC objects cratering into the ground from great heights or at great speed take damage.

*finds exception on pg 150 Silent Shadow*

*checks Sea Demon on pg 147*

Drop from 301 feet... 50% chance of taking 4D6 MD... what a clunker.

That'd be a mere 30D6 damage (depleting 1 MD ~half the time) for most suits.


To be clear, i didn't say "all", i said "Some". It does set the precedent that being made of MDC materials doesn't prevent an object from taking a potentially high amount of falling damage, which is all i was really saying.

Being made of MDC doesn't make you immune to falling damage, and said falling damage can be MDC up front (not even just upscaled lots-of-SDC-from-a-super-high-fall) and can be fairly high.

That the rules are super inconsistent is par for the course with Palladium material.

Also, i wouldn't call the Silent Shadow an "Exception" - it has actual wings and is DESIGNED to glide. So yeah, it can fall from pretty much any height and always safely land, because it doesn't rely on thrusters or anything else to land.. it just glides... so the height is largely irrelevant.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:35 am
  

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Comment: Rifts, Robotech, and Palladium Fantasy - in that order
DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Borg is immune to it, unless dropped onto mdc material. Borg just falls through ground like its styrofoam.
Samas is probably same.
Mdc alloy never takes damage from sdc material like dirt. It would keep its edge all the way through, obliterating the ground coming to a slow stop like a ball bearing into mud.

Maybe a piloting roll for the samas, and DeX check for Borg?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:05 am
  

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Not-a-rogue-scholar wrote:
DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Borg is immune to it, unless dropped onto mdc material. Borg just falls through ground like its styrofoam.
Samas is probably same.
Mdc alloy never takes damage from sdc material like dirt. It would keep its edge all the way through, obliterating the ground coming to a slow stop like a ball bearing into mud.

Maybe a piloting roll for the samas, and DeX check for Borg?


Except that we've already shown that this is not the case, with citations, above.

MDC objects CAN take (significant) amounts of MDC from falling, even onto plain old SDC ground.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:26 am
  

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Not-a-rogue-scholar wrote:
DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Borg is immune to it, unless dropped onto mdc material. Borg just falls through ground like its styrofoam.
Samas is probably same.
Mdc alloy never takes damage from sdc material like dirt. It would keep its edge all the way through, obliterating the ground coming to a slow stop like a ball bearing into mud.

Maybe a piloting roll for the samas, and DeX check for Borg?

That was changed in RUE pg 355.
"Only S.D.C. weapons that inflict 100 or more S.D.C. points of damage can hurt M.D.C. armor. All other S.D.C. attacks ( 1 -99 points of damage) bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman."

So going by that if the fall is treated as an attack and the ground is the weapon then a fall that inflicts more than 100 SDC damages the borg. (1 MDC being the equivalent of 100 SDC.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:03 pm
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
That was changed in RUE pg 355.
"Only S.D.C. weapons that inflict 100 or more S.D.C. points of damage can hurt M.D.C. armor. All other S.D.C. attacks ( 1 -99 points of damage) bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman."

So going by that if the fall is treated as an attack and the ground is the weapon then a fall that inflicts more than 100 SDC damages the borg. (1 MDC being the equivalent of 100 SDC.)

Yeah prior to the rephrasing:
*in Robotech, nothing SDC could harm MDC
*in 1st ed Rifts, only SDC explosives/missiles doing 100+ could harm it

I guess we would use standard fall damage (and only damage if it is 100+) except where otherwise indicated for certain armors which seem to plain suck and take crazy MD from falls compared to other MDC stuff.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:44 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Not-a-rogue-scholar wrote:
DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Borg is immune to it, unless dropped onto mdc material. Borg just falls through ground like its styrofoam.
Samas is probably same.
Mdc alloy never takes damage from sdc material like dirt. It would keep its edge all the way through, obliterating the ground coming to a slow stop like a ball bearing into mud.

Maybe a piloting roll for the samas, and DeX check for Borg?


Except that we've already shown that this is not the case, with citations, above.

MDC objects CAN take (significant) amounts of MDC from falling, even onto plain old SDC ground.


Odd thought on this one, but IS the ground technically SDC? I mean sure, you can blast it away with MDC weapons but at the end of the day, while the landscape might be irreparably changed, the ground is still there.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:42 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Captain_Nibbz wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Not-a-rogue-scholar wrote:
DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Borg is immune to it, unless dropped onto mdc material. Borg just falls through ground like its styrofoam.
Samas is probably same.
Mdc alloy never takes damage from sdc material like dirt. It would keep its edge all the way through, obliterating the ground coming to a slow stop like a ball bearing into mud.

Maybe a piloting roll for the samas, and DeX check for Borg?


Except that we've already shown that this is not the case, with citations, above.

MDC objects CAN take (significant) amounts of MDC from falling, even onto plain old SDC ground.


Odd thought on this one, but IS the ground technically SDC? I mean sure, you can blast it away with MDC weapons but at the end of the day, while the landscape might be irreparably changed, the ground is still there.


"The ground" generally is. Unless your on Wormwood.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:56 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Captain_Nibbz wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Not-a-rogue-scholar wrote:
DevastationBob wrote:
A full conversion borg gets picked up and dropped from a great height by a dragon, or SAMAS suffers catastrophic systems failure at altitude. Would the MDC protect them from SDC falling damage?


Borg is immune to it, unless dropped onto mdc material. Borg just falls through ground like its styrofoam.
Samas is probably same.
Mdc alloy never takes damage from sdc material like dirt. It would keep its edge all the way through, obliterating the ground coming to a slow stop like a ball bearing into mud.

Maybe a piloting roll for the samas, and DeX check for Borg?


Except that we've already shown that this is not the case, with citations, above.

MDC objects CAN take (significant) amounts of MDC from falling, even onto plain old SDC ground.


Odd thought on this one, but IS the ground technically SDC? I mean sure, you can blast it away with MDC weapons but at the end of the day, while the landscape might be irreparably changed, the ground is still there.


"The ground" generally is. Unless your on Wormwood.


So expanding on this thought then, if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:16 pm
  

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Captain_Nibbz wrote:
So expanding on this thought then, if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?


None, because it's a planet and you'd need over a thousand starships with more firepower than I've...


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:22 pm
  

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So expanding on this thought then, if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?[/quote]

yes the ground takes damage roughly equal to the amount of damage the object crashing into it takes, however the damage to the ground is represented mostly by a hole (crater) or similar as the ground is shoved out of the way. and this damage does NOT transfer to the planet in general


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:47 am
  

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Captain_Nibbz wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
So expanding on this thought then, if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?


yes the ground takes damage roughly equal to the amount of damage the object crashing into it takes, however the damage to the ground is represented mostly by a hole (crater) or similar as the ground is shoved out of the way. and this damage does NOT transfer to the planet in general


last time this came up in my games i invented terrain damage capacity as system of rapid ground displacement just to keep them from lasering their way under chi-town to win a bet.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:00 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Orin J. wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
So expanding on this thought then, if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?


yes the ground takes damage roughly equal to the amount of damage the object crashing into it takes, however the damage to the ground is represented mostly by a hole (crater) or similar as the ground is shoved out of the way. and this damage does NOT transfer to the planet in general



This is a good look at what happens when MDC weapons are thrown around a battlefeild for a long time. they rip huge craters into the earth, which the next time it rains turn into essentially impassable terrain. Yea, that's from World War 1, but thousand-pound artillery shells definatly do hundreds of SDC at least making them effectively mega-damage weapons.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:24 am
  

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Captain_Nibbz wrote:


So expanding on this thought then, if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?

A fall is kind of like a ram attack so as if the ground rammed to cause the damage.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:30 pm
  

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Captain_Nibbz wrote:
if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?

Let's use Heroes Unlimited to explore this!
Control Elemental Force: Earth (pg 257) "Wall of Earth"
a 20x12x3 dirt wall (720 cubic feet) has 200 SDC.
that's upped to 300 for clay/sand, 400 for stone

For comparison, a "Tower of Earth", a 6ft diameter cylinder per each 6ft of height (that's a volume of 169.65 cubic feet) gets 120 SDC. I think it being "earth or stone" explains why it is more durable.

The earth is going to have more and more SDC the deeper you go, the more packed/compressed everything gets.

This makes me wonder: although the AR give on this page is just for cover (to see if your bullets pass through to hit stuff behind it) if deeper-than-stone earth might actually acquire a "natural AR" (like what APS: Stone and APS:Metal both have) in HU terms, or perhaps even MDC in Rifts Earth terms.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:13 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Captain_Nibbz wrote:
if the ground is SDC, and it takes 100 SDC damage to equal 1 MDC, then how much damage would the falling object do to the ground itself?

Let's use Heroes Unlimited to explore this!
Control Elemental Force: Earth (pg 257) "Wall of Earth"
a 20x12x3 dirt wall (720 cubic feet) has 200 SDC.
that's upped to 300 for clay/sand, 400 for stone

For comparison, a "Tower of Earth", a 6ft diameter cylinder per each 6ft of height (that's a volume of 169.65 cubic feet) gets 120 SDC. I think it being "earth or stone" explains why it is more durable.

The earth is going to have more and more SDC the deeper you go, the more packed/compressed everything gets.

This makes me wonder: although the AR give on this page is just for cover (to see if your bullets pass through to hit stuff behind it) if deeper-than-stone earth might actually acquire a "natural AR" (like what APS: Stone and APS:Metal both have) in HU terms, or perhaps even MDC in Rifts Earth terms.

You forgot to take in to account the conversion in CB 1 revised (PG 47) for rifts stats of those affects. It says MDC of eath structure is equal 1/4 the sdc. So your wall of dirt would have 50 MDC, 75MDC for clay and 100 MDC for stone. Tower of earth 40 MDC.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:50 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Yeah, but the ground clearly isn't MDC when it's ground otherwise it would be breaking every shovel in the area. I think the problem using super powers to determine MDC (and even SDC) is you have to assume the power is changing the material and making it stronger.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:02 pm
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Yeah, but the ground clearly isn't MDC when it's ground otherwise it would be breaking every shovel in the area. I think the problem using super powers to determine MDC (and even SDC) is you have to assume the power is changing the material and making it stronger.


Daniel Stoker
Your shovel is not digging up 720 feet destroying that much earth would require a anti-tank weapon (MDC)
Why do we have to assume that? Where does it say that? There is no reason to assume the power is reinforcing the earth.
The thing is we are trying to decide how big a whole is made when it takes the equivalent MDC/sdc damage. There are a few ways to go using the stats we have on earth material to decide the size the whole would seam logical.

Large rocks and sand bags in rifts mercs (156&157) used for cover provide 1200 sdc (12 MDC) we do not have the size of the rocks and sand bags(book calls them sacks for some reason) but i do not think a person is using 720 cubic feet of earth for cover. So I would say that it is clear the power is clearly not making the earth stronger.

Giving that then 720 cubic feet of earth would seam to be more along the lines of 50 MDC than 200 sdc.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:31 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Well I'd hope not with my shovel, but doesn't that show it's still not an MDC structure, but a structure with a lot of SDC that "equals" MDC? I freely admit the book doesn't say it anywhere, but the ground isn't MDC in Heroes Unlimited but is in Rifts, which makes me think it's the power making the earth MDC not the status of the earth itself.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:06 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
If it can just turn SDC earth to MDC for no cost, and the power never wears off, I am imaging a troll Villian with this power who simply walks along the ground turning all the Soil around him into MDC soil so farmer's tractors break when they try to plough it. Actually unless they have some Magic ploughs made by a Mystic Kuznya or a plasma plough the whole village might starve...

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:31 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Well I assume you have to do it with the actual power/abilities (ie make the tower of earth or wall) not just turn earth into MDC.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:27 pm
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Well I'd hope not with my shovel, but doesn't that show it's still not an MDC structure, but a structure with a lot of SDC that "equals" MDC? I freely admit the book doesn't say it anywhere, but the ground isn't MDC in Heroes Unlimited but is in Rifts, which makes me think it's the power making the earth MDC not the status of the earth itself.


Daniel Stoker

Small parts of earth are sdc larger parts take MDC to damage. The whole earth is gigadamage. Most natural stone structures we have stats for are treated as MDC. SoT 6.

In truth while a sdc gun would chip away a stone wall it typically would not break the wall. While a shovel can break up and move small parts of earth it does not destroy the earth.

(Also I seam to recall a story in a book about the use of a vibro spade to dig.)

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The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:46 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
But they don't in Heroes Unlimited as the same volume for the wall and tower are SDC not MDC. A rock hammer won’t break a wall either, but if you have 20 years and go at it every night you can make it through that concrete wall. If 5 lbs of dirt isn’t going to be MDC I don’t see why it would turn into MDC if it becomes 500 lbs (or whatever for a wall of earth) and it seems to make more sense that it’s the super power (or elemental spell or whatever) turning it into MDC for the duration.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:29 pm
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
But they don't in Heroes Unlimited as the same volume for the wall and tower are SDC not MDC. A rock hammer won’t break a wall either, but if you have 20 years and go at it every night you can make it through that concrete wall. If 5 lbs of dirt isn’t going to be MDC I don’t see why it would turn into MDC if it becomes 500 lbs (or whatever for a wall of earth) and it seems to make more sense that it’s the super power (or elemental spell or whatever) turning it into MDC for the duration.


Daniel Stoker

You do not see why it takes 100 times the damage to destroy 500 pounds of something than 5 pounds?

The whole can be greater than the parts.
Destroying 5 pounds of dirt 100 times requires less force each attack than destroying 500 pounds 1 time.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:20 pm
  

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Knight

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Blue_Lion wrote:
You forgot to take in to account the conversion in CB 1 revised (PG 47) for rifts stats of those affects. It says MDC of eath structure is equal 1/4 the sdc. So your wall of dirt would have 50 MDC, 75MDC for clay and 100 MDC for stone. Tower of earth 40 MDC.

Good point, totally forgot about that!

I don't know if that means we need vibro-spades to dig gardens all of a sudden. It might be that CEF pulls up MDC dirt buried deep beneath the SDC dirt, or else their power somehow temporarily strengthens dirt (compacting it more?) into MDC when it might not be normally?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
If it can just turn SDC earth to MDC for no cost,
and the power never wears off

Tower is temporary, but Wall/Encase do indeed seem to be permanent


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:09 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Blue_Lion wrote:
You do not see why it takes 100 times the damage to destroy 500 pounds of something than 5 pounds?

The whole can be greater than the parts.
Destroying 5 pounds of dirt 100 times requires less force each attack than destroying 500 pounds 1 time.


Sure I so, but I don't think that means the 5 pounds of dirt turns into MDC, just has so MUCH SDC that it needs MDC to destroy it in a few shots. I can still pick at that 500 pounds of dirt and 'destroy' it a little at a time with my spoon as I can with the 5 pounds of dirt. Unless there is something done with a super power or spell which seems to pretty clearly do something so it's MDC now when it wasn't before.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:52 pm
  

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Knight

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Maybe there's some kind of "MDC damage converts into SDC" rule going on for Rifts Earth like there is for Prometheans / Zombies and various other critters? MAGIC


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:47 am
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
You do not see why it takes 100 times the damage to destroy 500 pounds of something than 5 pounds?

The whole can be greater than the parts.
Destroying 5 pounds of dirt 100 times requires less force each attack than destroying 500 pounds 1 time.


Sure I so, but I don't think that means the 5 pounds of dirt turns into MDC, just has so MUCH SDC that it needs MDC to destroy it in a few shots.
Correct.

Daniel Stoker wrote:
I can still pick at that 500 pounds of dirt and 'destroy' it a little at a time with my spoon as I can with the 5 pounds of dirt. Unless there is something done with a super power or spell which seems to pretty clearly do something so it's MDC now when it wasn't before.


Daniel Stoker
sorry but no. Your spoon and shovel are not really attacks what you are disassembled without dealing damage to destroy it. ("destroy was a bad word choice on my part")

I can use a tools to disable a MDC tank thus destroying it without ever doing MDC damage.
I can shoot a dirt burm all day long with sdc rifle at the end of the day the burm is still there. Now then if you shoot the same burm with a anti tank weapon you can blow it up.

The problem is not that the is not that the power makes the earth MDC in rifts but that the stats in HU make it to easy to destroy that much earth. If they gave it a realistic sdc in HU it would ruin the fun. However in rifts it can have a relistic damage pool.

So it is not required for the power to really be turning the earth mdc in rifts, when it can be just how large masses of earth are treated in rifts.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:10 am
  

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I would like to point out the earth work fortification in SoT 6 pg 36-37. These are permanent mdc structures and there is no warlock spell I know of that turns the earth MDC like iron wood does wood.

What I find odd is the warlock spells that do make walls are listed as X MDC or Y SDC but only 1 listed ppe. Do these spells have both mdc and sdc stats at the same time?

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:35 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Blue_Lion wrote:
Correct.

sorry but no. Your spoon and shovel are not really attacks what you are disassembled without dealing damage to destroy it. ("destroy was a bad word choice on my part")

I can use a tools to disable a MDC tank thus destroying it without ever doing MDC damage.
I can shoot a dirt burm all day long with sdc rifle at the end of the day the burm is still there. Now then if you shoot the same burm with a anti tank weapon you can blow it up.

The problem is not that the is not that the power makes the earth MDC in rifts but that the stats in HU make it to easy to destroy that much earth. If they gave it a realistic sdc in HU it would ruin the fun. However in rifts it can have a relistic damage pool.

So it is not required for the power to really be turning the earth mdc in rifts, when it can be just how large masses of earth are treated in rifts.


My shovel and spoon are breaking up the ground and removing part of it. It's not literally destroying it, but neither is a sword cutting a branch in half, it just moved the bottom portion from the top. Either way if I'm right about 5 pounds of dirt not turning into MDC when it's 500 lbs, then it still shouldn't be MDC and I have a hard time believing that a wall of dirt has more MDC then a pre-Rifts tank.


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:52 am
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Correct.

sorry but no. Your spoon and shovel are not really attacks what you are disassembled without dealing damage to destroy it. ("destroy was a bad word choice on my part")

I can use a tools to disable a MDC tank thus destroying it without ever doing MDC damage.
I can shoot a dirt burm all day long with sdc rifle at the end of the day the burm is still there. Now then if you shoot the same burm with a anti tank weapon you can blow it up.

The problem is not that the is not that the power makes the earth MDC in rifts but that the stats in HU make it to easy to destroy that much earth. If they gave it a realistic sdc in HU it would ruin the fun. However in rifts it can have a relistic damage pool.

So it is not required for the power to really be turning the earth mdc in rifts, when it can be just how large masses of earth are treated in rifts.


My shovel and spoon are breaking up the ground and removing part of it. It's not literally destroying it, but neither is a sword cutting a branch in half, it just moved the bottom portion from the top. Either way if I'm right about 5 pounds of dirt not turning into MDC when it's 500 lbs, then it still shouldn't be MDC and I have a hard time believing that a wall of dirt has more MDC then a pre-Rifts tank.


Daniel Stoker

5 pounds of dirt can not be 500 pounds of dirt.
The dirt you moved can be put back in the same hole in the ground. Moving the dirt does not break the dirt.(the dirt can all be piled together or spread out but dirt was always a bunch of small things to begin with.) Cutting a branch with a sword can not be put back together without magic or glue, so the branch was broken in to. That is false equivalency.

While you may have your opinion on this unless you have a book quote that says so you are not right. You just have a different opinion than me.

My stance is while 5 pounds of dirt might be sdc 500 pounds might be mdc is valid and there are several examples of large earth structures being treated as mdc. Is valid by the books unless you have a quote that says it is not wrong it is just a diffrent opinion than the one you have.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:21 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
But it's the same dirt, just more of it. The amount of dirt doesn't make it transmogrify in property, so why would it turn from SDC to MDC instead of just being a lot more SDC because of the quantity? And if I make a mound of dirt into a wall with X # of SDC/MDC just like I did when it was just in the ground I can still take that shovel and shovel it. Unless this super power has been used where suddenly that wall of dirt is an MDC structure.

As to book sources, where do they list s earth structures that are MDC? Being 'treated as' can be like saying a tank with 500 SDC can be treated like 5 MDC too, so I'd love to read some examples.


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:24 am
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
But it's the same dirt, just more of it. The amount of dirt doesn't make it transmogrify in property, so why would it turn from SDC to MDC instead of just being a lot more SDC because of the quantity? And if I make a mound of dirt into a wall with X # of SDC/MDC just like I did when it was just in the ground I can still take that shovel and shovel it. Unless this super power has been used where suddenly that wall of dirt is an MDC structure.

As to book sources, where do they list s earth structures that are MDC? Being 'treated as' can be like saying a tank with 500 SDC can be treated like 5 MDC too, so I'd love to read some examples.


Daniel Stoker

Looks up to earlier post where I posted SoT pg 36-37. Lets see is Siege on Tolkeen Page 36 and 37. These are earth works made by warlocks and elementals that lack any power to turn stone to mdc permanently. It does not say treated as but says has, or has approximately.


It is not about transmogrify but the amount of force needed to destroy something. Once you get enough of something together normal sdc attacks have no significant affect and will never destroy it. You can shoot a hill top all day long with a M16 assault rifle and not make a significant dent in it, however a few shots of a L20 laser rifle and you can have a crater. (as I have said before difrent ways.)

Unless you have something new to add this debate has likely reached its end of productivity.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:28 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
So checking the last SoT book I see where they describe them, but the book says, "The earthen formations are the creations of magic and enslaved elemental forces used to reshape and mold the very earth." which makes it sound like more then just normal dirt being piled up, but go figure they don't actually tell how they're actually created by magic and enslaved elemental forces. And you missed my point about transmorgifying. Do you think 5 pounds of dirt is MDC? If not then it's transforming/transmorgifying when you add 495 more pounds of it to get all that dirt turned into MDC.


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:46 pm
  

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Knight

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Blue_Lion wrote:
I would like to point out the earth work fortification in SoT 6 pg 36-37.
These are permanent mdc structures and there is no warlock spell I know of that turns the earth MDC like iron wood does wood.
What I find odd is the warlock spells that do make walls are listed as X MDC or Y SDC but only 1 listed ppe.
Do these spells have both mdc and sdc stats at the same time?

Daniel Stoker wrote:
my point about transmorgifying.
Do you think 5 pounds of dirt is MDC?
If not then it's transforming/transmorgifying when you add 495 more pounds of it to get all that dirt turned into MDC.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Lets see is Siege on Tolkeen Page 36 and 37.
These are earth works made by warlocks and elementals that lack any power to turn stone to mdc permanently.
It does not say treated as but says has, or has approximately.
Once you get enough of something together normal sdc attacks have no significant affect and will never destroy it.
You can shoot a hill top all day long with a M16 assault rifle and not make a significant dent in it,
however a few shots of a L20 laser rifle and you can have a crater.
(as I have said before difrent ways.)
Unless you have something new to add this debate has likely reached its end of productivity.

*reviews Final Siege 36/37*

So if we can't find a spell to explain permanent MDC stone walls (since there's no 'wood to stone' spell I guess?)

Could we maybe explain this by just giving Greater Elementals the equivalent "Control Elemental Force" major super-powers? That feels right somehow.

If free abilities sounds too powerful, maybe have them cost PPE to activate like when you get that power via an Enchanted Item in heroes unlimited?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:18 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
It is possible with an Earth Warlock/Earth Elemental. Create Wood allows allows an earth elemental to make up to 100lbs of wood for every 5 PPE expended, Ironwood the Earth Warlock Spell converts that into MDC wood, and then that MDC wood can be transformed into MDC stone with the level 6 earth warlock spell: Wood to Stone, which we know can be stone be MDC because the level 4 Mend Stone earth warlock spell can restore MDC to a damaged MDC stone structure. And this is apparently a cannon way to get MDC stone.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:56 am
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
So checking the last SoT book I see where they describe them, but the book says, "The earthen formations are the creations of magic and enslaved elemental forces used to reshape and mold the very earth." which makes it sound like more then just normal dirt being piled up, but go figure they don't actually tell how they're actually created by magic and enslaved elemental forces. And you missed my point about transmorgifying. Do you think 5 pounds of dirt is MDC? If not then it's transforming/transmorgifying when you add 495 more pounds of it to get all that dirt turned into MDC.


Daniel Stoker

You keep looking at it as the earth is changing. The amount of something you are affecting can and does change the force to break it. Do you think it takes MD damage to disable a CS main battle tank.

We know from earth warlocks spells that dirt/stone can have both sdc and mdc.

We do not know that the MDC of the stone works built with the power is because the power reinforces them. Despite your claims you can not prove that it is obviously doing something that we are not told about because things do not always make sense in rifts.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:19 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It is possible with an Earth Warlock/Earth Elemental. Create Wood allows allows an earth elemental to make up to 100lbs of wood for every 5 PPE expended, Ironwood the Earth Warlock Spell converts that into MDC wood, and then that MDC wood can be transformed into MDC stone with the level 6 earth warlock spell: Wood to Stone, which we know can be stone be MDC because the level 4 Mend Stone earth warlock spell can restore MDC to a damaged MDC stone structure. And this is apparently a cannon way to get MDC stone.

It does not prove the existence of permanent stone that is just MDC because Earth warlock spells have stats in both MDC and SDC that does not match conversion that disappear at end of duration. So the MDC in mend stone could be justified by spells like this.

Wall of stone PG 69 book of magic "The Warlock can create a wall of stone with 50 M.D.C. or 250 S.D.C. per level of experience."(note it does not have two casting cost one for sdc and one for stone like create wood)

What can be used to prove the existence of MDC stone would be things made of stone that have MDC. Pyramids, earth work fortifications and earth elementals. This still leaves the question of what is making stone constructs MDC.

Note: turning wood to stone does not match the description of the earthwork fortifications appearance and what little we know about how they are made.
Unlike the create wood spell you quoted that has to casting cost diffrent based on hard and soft wood this spell has just one cost.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:39 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It is possible with an Earth Warlock/Earth Elemental. Create Wood allows allows an earth elemental to make up to 100lbs of wood for every 5 PPE expended, Ironwood the Earth Warlock Spell converts that into MDC wood, and then that MDC wood can be transformed into MDC stone with the level 6 earth warlock spell: Wood to Stone, which we know can be stone be MDC because the level 4 Mend Stone earth warlock spell can restore MDC to a damaged MDC stone structure. And this is apparently a cannon way to get MDC stone.

It does not prove the existence of permanent stone that is just MDC because Earth warlock spells have stats in both MDC and SDC that does not match conversion that disappear at end of duration. So the MDC in mend stone could be justified by spells like this.


Sure, Mend Stone does not prove it in and of itself. that's why it's only one of several spells in a chain I refereced as a way to get permanent MDC stone.

Quote:
Note: turning wood to stone does not match the description of the earthwork fortifications appearance and what little we know about how they are made.
Unlike the create wood spell you quoted that has to casting cost diffrent based on hard and soft wood this spell has just one cost.


the final appearance of the structure is fairly irrelevent as cosmetic modifications can be made whatever the raw unfinished look would be like. I was bringing it up as apparently the only canon way earth warlocks/ementals have of making MDC stone. But it was also my hint that the post was meant to be tounge in cheek :lol:

The fact that it does not really match how it was discribed they made them is just another case of mechanics in the book not lining up with flavor material.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:15 pm
  

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Knight

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MDC Stone, not sure if its been mentioned but WB9 pg54-5 the Pucara Red Giant RCC power #4 might be of interest in the discussion.

Stone Master constructs can also result in MDC stone (WB2 pg104 #4, nothing suggests it MDC because of magic)

The old "SDC Table (basic)" found in RMB (pg36, not in RUE AFAIK) has SDC listed for various wall/doors by material. Any one of which could be considered "MDC" in terms of short hand. Extrapolated out the RMB could easily explain stone formations with "MDC".

I'd also add that the New West Mining Borg's tools include an MDC jackhammer and 2 different mining drills, all of which are capable of inflicting MDC as attacks. So stone might not be "MDC" per say, but can be considered such for all practical purposes (megaversally there are examples of this in the old 1E RT RPG line, some of which had hardware repeated in RMB)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:49 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Blue_Lion wrote:
you keep looking at it as the earth is changing. The amount of something you are affecting can and does change the force to break it. Do you think it takes MD damage to disable a CS main battle tank.

We know from earth warlocks spells that dirt/stone can have both sdc and mdc.

We do not know that the MDC of the stone works built with the power is because the power reinforces them. Despite your claims you can not prove that it is obviously doing something that we are not told about because things do not always make sense in rifts.


Yes I do keep looking at it as the earth is changing because it is. Unless you're saying that 5 lbs of dirt is MDC not SDC it has to change if we go from 5 to 500 and it's now MDC not just hundreds of SDC acting effectively as MDC.

I agree too, we don't KNOW something is turning it MDC, but that seems to be the most likely explanation when go figure Kevin doesn't actually explain how the fortifications are built.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:52 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
ShadowLogan wrote:
Stone Master constructs can also result in MDC stone (WB2 pg104 #4, nothing suggests it MDC because of magic)


Did the books change? My power # 4 in world book 2 (which is on page 102 so could easily be different editions) is Move stone mentally and I don't see where it lists any MDC for the stone.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:36 pm
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Stone Master constructs can also result in MDC stone (WB2 pg104 #4, nothing suggests it MDC because of magic)


Did the books change? My power # 4 in world book 2 (which is on page 102 so could easily be different editions) is Move stone mentally and I don't see where it lists any MDC for the stone.


Daniel Stoker

No. You are on Pg102, I am on Page 104 #4 ("The focus and control of available P.P.E.") under the Pyramid Technology section of the OCC. "To free a ley line or nexus of the pyramid's control, it must be destroyed! Unfortunately, all stone pyramids are mega-damage structures. Even a small pyramid is typically the equivalent to a five to ten story building (never any smaller)." this is followed by a bullet list for MDC by size.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:28 am
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
you keep looking at it as the earth is changing. The amount of something you are affecting can and does change the force to break it. Do you think it takes MD damage to disable a CS main battle tank.

We know from earth warlocks spells that dirt/stone can have both sdc and mdc.

We do not know that the MDC of the stone works built with the power is because the power reinforces them. Despite your claims you can not prove that it is obviously doing something that we are not told about because things do not always make sense in rifts.


Yes I do keep looking at it as the earth is changing because it is. Unless you're saying that 5 lbs of dirt is MDC not SDC it has to change if we go from 5 to 500 and it's now MDC not just hundreds of SDC acting effectively as MDC.

I agree too, we don't KNOW something is turning it MDC, but that seems to be the most likely explanation when go figure Kevin doesn't actually explain how the fortifications are built.


Daniel Stoker

And I have already pointed out the same stone wall can be stated in both sdc and MDC so it does not require the dirt to change the nature of dirt if it can have both.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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