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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:55 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
ShadowLogan wrote:
No. You are on Pg102, I am on Page 104 #4 ("The focus and control of available P.P.E.") under the Pyramid Technology section of the OCC. "To free a ley line or nexus of the pyramid's control, it must be destroyed! Unfortunately, all stone pyramids are mega-damage structures. Even a small pyramid is typically the equivalent to a five to ten story building (never any smaller)." this is followed by a bullet list for MDC by size.


Yeah that makes much more sense, but that's building one of their magical stone pyramids I'm not surprised that is MDC with all it can do and all the PPE it channels.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:58 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Blue_Lion wrote:
And I have already pointed out the same stone wall can be stated in both sdc and MDC so it does not require the dirt to change the nature of dirt if it can have both.


You pointed to a magical construct that we don't know how is made that's MDC, but that's not the same thing 500 lbs of dirt being MDC compared to 5 lbs of it, which is why I asked if you thought 5 lbs was MDC because if not then clearly the dirt is changing at some point from SDC into MDC.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:59 pm
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
And I have already pointed out the same stone wall can be stated in both sdc and MDC so it does not require the dirt to change the nature of dirt if it can have both.


You pointed to a magical construct that we don't know how is made that's MDC, but that's not the same thing 500 lbs of dirt being MDC compared to 5 lbs of it, which is why I asked if you thought 5 lbs was MDC because if not then clearly the dirt is changing at some point from SDC into MDC.


Daniel Stoker

Again with the 5 pound straw man line.


We do not destroy dirt with normal sdc attacks. It is always still dirt when you attack it with most sdc weapons you may move it and such but it is still dirt. So asking if dirt changes because of weight is a straw man.

The dirt is not changing but larger constructs would require a more force to destroy and may be immune to destruction by SDC attacks. So it is the (X)DC of the construct that matters not the (X)DC of dirt by itself. We do not know the (X)DC of dirt by X weight we just have some of the final (X)DC of constructs.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:16 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
We do not destroy dirt with normal sdc attacks. It is always still dirt when you attack it with most sdc weapons you may move it and such but it is still dirt.


I guess you can't really destroy stone either, you just change a block of stone into smaller blocks of stone. You break the block (the construct) but not the components.

I guess in that sense when you deplete SDC of a "brick wall" (I'm sure I saw that somewhere) it doesn't necessarily mean you broke any of the bricks, you might've just knocked the bricks apart?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It is possible with an Earth Warlock/Earth Elemental.
Create Wood allows allows an earth elemental to make up to 100lbs of wood for every 5 PPE expended,
Ironwood the Earth Warlock Spell converts that into MDC wood,
and then that MDC wood can be transformed into MDC stone with the level 6 earth warlock spell: Wood to Stone,

Ah good, I was hoping I was remembering right about there being a wood>stone spell.

This got me wondering, could I cast Ironwood on a skeleton I turned into wood using the Mystic Russia "bones to wood" spell?

I know there's already a "turn bones MDC" spell which already turns wood skeletons (but not stone ones!) into MDC, but like in case you knew Ironwood but not that spell...

Come to think of it... what if you turned a skeleton to stone, then cast stone to wood, then cast ironwood?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
which we know can be stone be MDC because the level 4 Mend Stone earth warlock spell can restore MDC to a damaged MDC stone structure.

Er, I guess that sets precedent for warlock spells affecting MDC stone, but I wouldn't have assumed they couldn't even without that.

Blue_Lion wrote:
It does not prove the existence of permanent stone that is just MDC because Earth warlock spells have stats in both MDC and SDC that does not match conversion that disappear at end of duration. So the MDC in mend stone could be justified by spells like this.

Wall of stone PG 69 book of magic "The Warlock can create a wall of stone with 50 M.D.C. or 250 S.D.C. per level of experience."(note it does not have two casting cost one for sdc and one for stone like create wood)

What can be used to prove the existence of MDC stone would be things made of stone that have MDC. Pyramids, earth work fortifications and earth elementals. This still leaves the question of what is making stone constructs MDC.

Note: turning wood to stone does not match the description of the earthwork fortifications appearance and what little we know about how they are made.
Unlike the create wood spell you quoted that has to casting cost diffrent based on hard and soft wood this spell has just one cost.

Nekira's explanation seems the simplest one to how they'd accomplish it under known rules. Just because they don't mention the precursor wood step doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. We know the end result is MDC stone walls, it doesn't explain how they get there.

Changing MDC wood into stone should result in MDC stone, not SDC stone. Otherwise, I'm going to go around with wood>stone and nuke a bunch of ironwood walls with my 1MD wilk's laser scalpel.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:28 pm
  

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Knight

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
No. You are on Pg102, I am on Page 104 #4 ("The focus and control of available P.P.E.") under the Pyramid Technology section of the OCC. "To free a ley line or nexus of the pyramid's control, it must be destroyed! Unfortunately, all stone pyramids are mega-damage structures. Even a small pyramid is typically the equivalent to a five to ten story building (never any smaller)." this is followed by a bullet list for MDC by size.


Yeah that makes much more sense, but that's building one of their magical stone pyramids I'm not surprised that is MDC with all it can do and all the PPE it channels.


Daniel Stoker

But we know there a limit to the number of stone pyramids that can be placed together on a Ley Line/Nexus, so I don't think they are MDC because they are magical, they are MDC by size.

If you look at the old RMB and the generic SDC table it has examples of Brick and Concrete walls, which could be expressed as "MDC" for short hand. Though how big these walls are is another matter. But...

In 2E PF though they have a similar table (pg47), and include walls of light stone, heavy stone, defensive stone per area (10ft/3m) which could be expressed as MDC in short hand. Calculating the surface area of a Pyramid (assume sides angle is like the Great Pyramid) with a height of 100ft and the base is ~246 per side, the resulting MDC shorthand using Light Stone from PF2E would be ~13,900MDC (more than the 8, 000MDC it can have at most but that isn't surprising though if the angle is reduced the resulting MDC is reduced for example at 30deg instead of the 51deg of the GP would result in ~4,000MDC). Though you could still in theory chip away at it with SDC tool/weapons.

I say "MDC shorthand" because in 1E RT some/most of the SDC vehicles listed an equivalent MDC value, along with a suit of body armor. RMB and 1E RT main book also shared a listing of generic SDC weapons that listed SDC/MD values (and 1E RT might have other examples outside the C&P). I don't think we really see it used in Rifts aside from the occasional creature (race/monster) with loads of SDC and a note they can survive minor MD.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:49 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
ShadowLogan wrote:
But we know there a limit to the number of stone pyramids that can be placed together on a Ley Line/Nexus, so I don't think they are MDC because they are magical, they are MDC by size.


Why, do we have evidence of them building a stone pyramid elsewhere (not on ley lines) and having them be MDC? I mean I'm I see what you're doing talking about assuming their MDC for shorthand, but like you said you can still chip at it with a hammer so it's not REALLY MDC.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Again with the 5 pound straw man line.


No, it's a question. A strawman would be if I acted like that was your argument and dismantled it. In this case I'm trying to ask you if you DO think that 5 lbs of dirt is MDC or not. Granted it's a LEADING question because it's probably clear to everyone where I'm going with it based on the rest of my post, but it's still a question.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:20 pm
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
But we know there a limit to the number of stone pyramids that can be placed together on a Ley Line/Nexus, so I don't think they are MDC because they are magical, they are MDC by size.


Why, do we have evidence of them building a stone pyramid elsewhere (not on ley lines) and having them be MDC? I mean I'm I see what you're doing talking about assuming their MDC for shorthand, but like you said you can still chip at it with a hammer so it's not REALLY MDC.

Daniel Stoker

Off hand I don't know if they have stats for a stone pyramid off of a ley line/nexus in terms of MDC, or a non-magical stone structure in general. The only thing I can offer though is number of stone pyramids you can put on a Ley Line/Nexus within a certain radius won't have any mystical powers (pg104 text before the powers of stone pyramids are listed) and the point in #4 about all Stone Pyramids being MDC.

The question resulting from SoT6's Earth Bunker might just be an example of MDC short hand that isn't noted as such because it would be obvious.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:45 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Yeah, but aren't those all created with the same type of magic? I still haven't really re-read the class and I'm being lazy as my books are waaaaaay over there. Either way I honestly don't think we're going to find proof at this point to settle this, but still it's an interesting question for me.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:09 pm
  

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I'm not sure it matters that magic was involved in their construction. Near as I can tell the construction is a result of their abilities (Stone Magic abilities #1-5, WB2 pg100-2), none of which involve permanent enchanting. So it would be like a Mage or Psychic telekinetically altering the trajectory of an ordinary billiards ball in a game and then calling the ball "enchanted" after the power that produced motion is spent.

Now the pyramid shape is magical (per text pg104), which might turn it into MDC due to ambient magical energy or it might not (from one POV it already is MDC, and we know it isn't converting 1:1 given previous math done).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:20 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
My 'logic' was that magic in PPE rich earth could make magic stone especially since these things are typically built on ley lines. You're not just moving a ball, but making it in the first place, or at least vastly reforming it from the original ball as the shape/look/etc are vastly different and it doesn't say you need an ample supply of stone in the ground where you're doing this.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:47 pm
  

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Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Now the pyramid shape is magical (per text pg104), which might turn it into MDC due to ambient magical energy or it might not (from one POV it already is MDC, and we know it isn't converting 1:1 given previous math done).


I think Occams Razor says the latter is more likely, myself.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:35 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


Then simple sandbags would have MDC and no one would ever be able to break a rock without a vibroknife to flintknap or use stone in construction. That seems like it would be unlikely to me based on what we have been given in the books.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:01 am
  

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so i'm sure, you guys are aware you've gotten into an argument that has no real solution and you're just badgering each other for the sake of it right? i don't want to pop in and ruin your fun.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:53 pm
  

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OTOH, the solution is that Daniel is right, and Logan is not.

Stone is not MDC.

Full stop.

It can (and often does) have astronomical amounts of SDC that make it the equivalent to MDC (sometimes, LOTS of MDC equivalency), but it is not MDC unless something acts upon it to make it so.

You can break rock with a chisel.

Thats pretty much the end of the conversation.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am
  

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I say yes, but increase the height. Otherwise you're saying MDC jets can crash into the ground and suffer no damage. I'd change it to deal 1d6 M.D. per 100 feet fallen, plus 1d6 per 100 MPH

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:55 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
OTOH, the solution is that Daniel is right, and Logan is not.

Stone is not MDC.

Full stop.

It can (and often does) have astronomical amounts of SDC that make it the equivalent to MDC (sometimes, LOTS of MDC equivalency), but it is not MDC unless something acts upon it to make it so.

You can break rock with a chisel.

Thats pretty much the end of the conversation.

You can break rock with a chisel, but is this an example of an SDC weapon chipping/scratching the cosmetic MDC (which requires some of it to be "freed") that is present in the original RMB combat example (I forget if it's retained in RUE)? If you can chip/scratch MDC object with an SDC tool/attack, then rock might still be "natural" MDC and in the grand scheme of things you are just 'scratching' or 'chipping' the MDC.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:23 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I'm not sure you can compare scratching MDC with being able to break up a rock with a pick axe or chisel or whatever tool.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:13 pm
  

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Depends on the scale you want to look at. In terms of a rocky planet like Earth, that pick-axe/chisel/tool is scratching its MDC.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:56 am
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:

No, it's a question. A strawman would be if I acted like that was your argument and dismantled it. In this case I'm trying to ask you if you DO think that 5 lbs of dirt is MDC or not. Granted it's a LEADING question because it's probably clear to everyone where I'm going with it based on the rest of my post, but it's still a question.


Daniel Stoker

Which is how you been using the 5 lbs of dirt. You keep presenting it as a base to say I am wrong, because you think it is easy to knock over.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:02 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Now the pyramid shape is magical (per text pg104), which might turn it into MDC due to ambient magical energy or it might not (from one POV it already is MDC, and we know it isn't converting 1:1 given previous math done).


I think Occams Razor says the latter is more likely, myself.

Is it a ether or. Perhaps I did not understand what the choices where you where using the OCCams rasor are. Because it seams both quotes are saying turning stone to mdc to ambient PPE.

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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:07 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
OTOH, the solution is that Daniel is right, and Logan is not.

Stone is not MDC.

Full stop.

It can (and often does) have astronomical amounts of SDC that make it the equivalent to MDC (sometimes, LOTS of MDC equivalency), but it is not MDC unless something acts upon it to make it so.

You can break rock with a chisel.

Thats pretty much the end of the conversation.

That is not a solution, that is an example of taking sides in a debate then declaring your side correct as a solution to a debate. A solution to a question of is stone sdc or MDC would be answer that can be proven that ends all questions. Your opinion is not a solution.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:31 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Now the pyramid shape is magical (per text pg104), which might turn it into MDC due to ambient magical energy or it might not (from one POV it already is MDC, and we know it isn't converting 1:1 given previous math done).


I think Occams Razor says the latter is more likely, myself.

Is it a ether or. Perhaps I did not understand what the choices where you where using the OCCams rasor are. Because it seams both quotes are saying turning stone to mdc to ambient PPE.


It's rather more likely that stone becomes MDC when put into a Pyramid shape than stone is normally MDC while just lying around the landscape or in the ground.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:04 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Now the pyramid shape is magical (per text pg104), which might turn it into MDC due to ambient magical energy or it might not (from one POV it already is MDC, and we know it isn't converting 1:1 given previous math done).


I think Occams Razor says the latter is more likely, myself.

Is it a ether or. Perhaps I did not understand what the choices where you where using the OCCams rasor are. Because it seams both quotes are saying turning stone to mdc to ambient PPE.


It's rather more likely that stone becomes MDC when put into a Pyramid shape than stone is normally MDC while just lying around the landscape or in the ground.

I think it is more likely mdc due to size/scale, than some unstated mdc magical conversion in both it and stone works defenses found in SOT.
IE they are MDC because of their size.
instead of-There is a unstated magical reinforcement making them MDC.

The size of things can change the force it takes to destroy them.
You can destroy a sand bag by shooting it with a M4, but you will not destroy a hill of the same sand by shooting it with a M4. You might scratch the hill but not destroy it.
This is not a transmutation affect but affect of scale. The hill does not transform the dirt but the scale of what you are dealing with has changed.
*Like how you can break a twig with your thumb but not break 12' diameter tree with your thumb.*

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:07 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
We do not destroy dirt with normal sdc attacks. It is always still dirt when you attack it with most sdc weapons you may move it and such but it is still dirt.


I guess you can't really destroy stone either, you just change a block of stone into smaller blocks of stone. You break the block (the construct) but not the components.

I guess in that sense when you deplete SDC of a "brick wall" (I'm sure I saw that somewhere) it doesn't necessarily mean you broke any of the bricks, you might've just knocked the bricks apart?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It is possible with an Earth Warlock/Earth Elemental.
Create Wood allows allows an earth elemental to make up to 100lbs of wood for every 5 PPE expended,
Ironwood the Earth Warlock Spell converts that into MDC wood,
and then that MDC wood can be transformed into MDC stone with the level 6 earth warlock spell: Wood to Stone,

Ah good, I was hoping I was remembering right about there being a wood>stone spell.

This got me wondering, could I cast Ironwood on a skeleton I turned into wood using the Mystic Russia "bones to wood" spell?

I know there's already a "turn bones MDC" spell which already turns wood skeletons (but not stone ones!) into MDC, but like in case you knew Ironwood but not that spell...

Come to think of it... what if you turned a skeleton to stone, then cast stone to wood, then cast ironwood?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
which we know can be stone be MDC because the level 4 Mend Stone earth warlock spell can restore MDC to a damaged MDC stone structure.

Er, I guess that sets precedent for warlock spells affecting MDC stone, but I wouldn't have assumed they couldn't even without that.

Blue_Lion wrote:
It does not prove the existence of permanent stone that is just MDC because Earth warlock spells have stats in both MDC and SDC that does not match conversion that disappear at end of duration. So the MDC in mend stone could be justified by spells like this.

Wall of stone PG 69 book of magic "The Warlock can create a wall of stone with 50 M.D.C. or 250 S.D.C. per level of experience."(note it does not have two casting cost one for sdc and one for stone like create wood)

What can be used to prove the existence of MDC stone would be things made of stone that have MDC. Pyramids, earth work fortifications and earth elementals. This still leaves the question of what is making stone constructs MDC.

Note: turning wood to stone does not match the description of the earthwork fortifications appearance and what little we know about how they are made.
Unlike the create wood spell you quoted that has to casting cost diffrent based on hard and soft wood this spell has just one cost.

Nekira's explanation seems the simplest one to how they'd accomplish it under known rules. Just because they don't mention the precursor wood step doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. We know the end result is MDC stone walls, it doesn't explain how they get there.

Changing MDC wood into stone should result in MDC stone, not SDC stone. Otherwise, I'm going to go around with wood>stone and nuke a bunch of ironwood walls with my 1MD wilk's laser scalpel.

Nekira's explanation does not match how they say they are made, or described. So while it might be the a way to think you can do it bye the rules, it does not match the item in question.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:32 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Blue_Lion wrote:
Which is how you been using the 5 lbs of dirt. You keep presenting it as a base to say I am wrong, because you think it is easy to knock over.


I present it because I think it will prove my point, but it's not a stawman because it's a question I'm asking, I still haven't said it's your position and then taken it apart. I admit it's clear where I'm going with this, but it also seems to be the logical progression here to me.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:24 pm
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Which is how you been using the 5 lbs of dirt. You keep presenting it as a base to say I am wrong, because you think it is easy to knock over.


I present it because I think it will prove my point, but it's not a stawman because it's a question I'm asking, I still haven't said it's your position and then taken it apart. I admit it's clear where I'm going with this, but it also seems to be the logical progression here to me.


Daniel Stoker

Just because you worded your straw man in a loaded question to attempt to get others to knock it over to falsy disprove another stance does not mean it is not a straw man.

There is no need for there to be a transmutation for a stone/dirt wall to be MDC if the scale is such that sdc weapons would be realistically only scratching the surface. But your question is loaded with the requirement of the dirt transmuting. This is the straw man stance that it requires that the dirt transmute for a large scale to be MDC.

How about this what weapons actually have the ability to destroy the dirt and not just move the dirt? (see while worded as a question the answer is implied in the question with common answers already known to most people. )
SDC guns-no
SDC knife-no
sdc digging tools-no
plasma-yes
MD lasers-yes
railguns-unlikly
Vibro blades-unlikly
(see does the main weapons in rifts would lead to a loaded to look like a stance was undermined when it was actually addressed.)

So it could be the scale of the object and nature of rifts that makes the stone wall MDC. *That means it is not obvious that the power is reinforcing the stone to make it MDC as a unstated affect.*

How about this lets look at the asumptions to the stances.

1 stance one it is being reinforced by unknown stated affect.
requires assuming
1-that the only way for it be MDC is to be transmuted.
2-that the power includes a unstated reinforcement to transmute it.

2 the MDC could be do to the amount of force to affect the material on the scale listed.
requires assuming
1-that the scale can affect the XDC value of an object.
2-that the scale is the source of the MDC.

This means both stances can be equal valid theories as they both have 2 assumptions required for them.
If there are two valid theories then it is not obvious one way or the other as there is a debate about the source of the MDC.

Basically one stance require every example of MDC earth that does not have a listed source of MDC to have a source of MDC we are not told about. while the other just chalks it up to the size of the earth works.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:06 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
So because I didn't make it a strawman it's still a strawman because... you don't like the question? I'm not saying that's your position, something you need to do to be attacking a strawman, I'm instead trying to ask a question because the logic seems pretty clear to me.

The rules make no such claim that "There is no need for there to be a transmutation for a stone/dirt wall to be MDC if the scale is such that sdc weapons would be realistically only scratching the surface." This game has NEVER been realistic in the slightest. It does a job at aping realism to a degree but it does a poor job of it, but that's fine cause I can have a guy hopped up on drugs dodging laser beams. A tank doesn't turn into MDC because a knife at best could only be scratching it. It turns into MDC because Golden Age Weaponsmiths replaces the plating with MDC material.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:51 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well then maybe the ambient PPE of Rifts Earth makes (some or all of) the planet's dirt/rock MDC (borg mining drills do MD), but you can still "separate" loose bits with SDC because you aren't really doing damage, just moving it around.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Now the pyramid shape is magical (per text pg104), which might turn it into MDC due to ambient magical energy or it might not (from one POV it already is MDC, and we know it isn't converting 1:1 given previous math done).


I think Occams Razor says the latter is more likely, myself.

Is it a ether or. Perhaps I did not understand what the choices where you where using the OCCams rasor are. Because it seams both quotes are saying turning stone to mdc to ambient PPE.


It's rather more likely that stone becomes MDC when put into a Pyramid shape than stone is normally MDC while just lying around the landscape or in the ground.

I think it is more likely mdc due to size/scale, than some unstated mdc magical conversion in both it and stone works defenses found in SOT.
IE they are MDC because of their size.
instead of-There is a unstated magical reinforcement making them MDC.

The size of things can change the force it takes to destroy them.
You can destroy a sand bag by shooting it with a M4, but you will not destroy a hill of the same sand by shooting it with a M4. You might scratch the hill but not destroy it.
This is not a transmutation affect but affect of scale. The hill does not transform the dirt but the scale of what you are dealing with has changed.
*Like how you can break a twig with your thumb but not break 12' diameter tree with your thumb.*


but you can take an SDC shovel with regular human strength and dig a hole and move it, an if your really paitent, dig the entire hill away, with SDC shovels, thus it can't be MDC. a Pyramid is MDC, meaning a human with average human strength and an SDC pick, can never scratch a single stone even if they spend thousands of years picking at it. While with SDC stone piled on top, you would eventually be picking away and breaking up a Pyramid. We know this because we have Pyramids, and SDC tools with human strength can break them just fine.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:12 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
What Nekira said! :ok:


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:36 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:

but you can take an SDC shovel with regular human strength and dig a hole and move it, an if your really paitent, dig the entire hill away, with SDC shovels, thus it can't be MDC. a Pyramid is MDC, meaning a human with average human strength and an SDC pick, can never scratch a single stone even if they spend thousands of years picking at it. While with SDC stone piled on top, you would eventually be picking away and breaking up a Pyramid. We know this because we have Pyramids, and SDC tools with human strength can break them just fine.

The ability to disable something with the correct SDC tools does not prove it is not MDC. An operator could use SDC wrenches and tools to dissemble a MDC vehicle that does not mean the vehicle is not MDC.

Really can't scratch it I could have sworn the books described sdc damage to mdc as scratches. So if you are really patient you could scratch it away to the point to make a hole but in combat yo would not be able to break it.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:15 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Except you're not using a wrench to unscrew bolts made of MDC and pulling parts apart, but literally using something (typically harder) to break apart something else that's really big.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:51 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:

but you can take an SDC shovel with regular human strength and dig a hole and move it, an if your really paitent, dig the entire hill away, with SDC shovels, thus it can't be MDC. a Pyramid is MDC, meaning a human with average human strength and an SDC pick, can never scratch a single stone even if they spend thousands of years picking at it. While with SDC stone piled on top, you would eventually be picking away and breaking up a Pyramid. We know this because we have Pyramids, and SDC tools with human strength can break them just fine.

The ability to disable something with the correct SDC tools does not prove it is not MDC. An operator could use SDC wrenches and tools to dissemble a MDC vehicle that does not mean the vehicle is not MDC.

Really can't scratch it I could have sworn the books described sdc damage to mdc as scratches. So if you are really patient you could scratch it away to the point to make a hole but in combat yo would not be able to break it.


Not really. You're not actually damaging any MDC with a wrench when you disassemble it, your removing parts in a way they're designed to be removed without damaging them, same way opening with buttons does not damage it, but using sissors to cut it open does damage it. Here, if the Pyramid were really MDC, you could never ever break it with a SDC pick and regular strength no matter how long or hard you tried, so it can't be just regular SDC stone. What your saying is explictly contractided by the rules.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:26 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:

but you can take an SDC shovel with regular human strength and dig a hole and move it, an if your really paitent, dig the entire hill away, with SDC shovels, thus it can't be MDC. a Pyramid is MDC, meaning a human with average human strength and an SDC pick, can never scratch a single stone even if they spend thousands of years picking at it. While with SDC stone piled on top, you would eventually be picking away and breaking up a Pyramid. We know this because we have Pyramids, and SDC tools with human strength can break them just fine.

The ability to disable something with the correct SDC tools does not prove it is not MDC. An operator could use SDC wrenches and tools to dissemble a MDC vehicle that does not mean the vehicle is not MDC.

Really can't scratch it I could have sworn the books described sdc damage to mdc as scratches. So if you are really patient you could scratch it away to the point to make a hole but in combat yo would not be able to break it.


Not really. You're not actually damaging any MDC with a wrench when you disassemble it, your removing parts in a way they're designed to be removed without damaging them, same way opening with buttons does not damage it, but using sissors to cut it open does damage it. Here, if the Pyramid were really MDC, you could never ever break it with a SDC pick and regular strength no matter how long or hard you tried, so it can't be just regular SDC stone. What your saying is explictly contractided by the rules.

And your not damaging the dirt with a shovel just disabling the dirt and moving it. The shovel is the correct tool to disable a dirt hill.

If it was in combat then you would have a point about a contradiction however we do not know if that is the case outside of combat. Using a tool to dig a whole is not combat. You first claimed it could not scratch it now you are moving the goal post. If it can scratch like it is said to then you could scratch your way through with enough effort but that would take more than time in combat.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:37 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:

but you can take an SDC shovel with regular human strength and dig a hole and move it, an if your really paitent, dig the entire hill away, with SDC shovels, thus it can't be MDC. a Pyramid is MDC, meaning a human with average human strength and an SDC pick, can never scratch a single stone even if they spend thousands of years picking at it. While with SDC stone piled on top, you would eventually be picking away and breaking up a Pyramid. We know this because we have Pyramids, and SDC tools with human strength can break them just fine.

The ability to disable something with the correct SDC tools does not prove it is not MDC. An operator could use SDC wrenches and tools to dissemble a MDC vehicle that does not mean the vehicle is not MDC.

Really can't scratch it I could have sworn the books described sdc damage to mdc as scratches. So if you are really patient you could scratch it away to the point to make a hole but in combat yo would not be able to break it.


Not really. You're not actually damaging any MDC with a wrench when you disassemble it, your removing parts in a way they're designed to be removed without damaging them, same way opening with buttons does not damage it, but using sissors to cut it open does damage it. Here, if the Pyramid were really MDC, you could never ever break it with a SDC pick and regular strength no matter how long or hard you tried, so it can't be just regular SDC stone. What your saying is explictly contractided by the rules.

And your not damaging the dirt with a shovel just disabling the dirt and moving it. The shovel is the correct tool to disable a dirt hill.

If it was in combat then you would have a point about a contradiction however we do not know if that is the case outside of combat. Using a tool to dig a whole is not combat. You first claimed it could not scratch it now you are moving the goal post. If it can scratch like it is said to then you could scratch your way through with enough effort but that would take more than time in combat.


I'm not actually talking about combat at all? Seriously, I never once mentioned combat. I'm talking about the discribed physical properties of the materials in question. You can take an SDC pick and use it to start chipping away a stone pyramid. if it was MDC stone, you cannot use a pick to start chipping away at it. I can't be moving the goalposts to in or out of combat, combat or lack thereof is completely irrelevent to my statements? I have no idea where you got it from.

You appear to be the one making up rules and moving goalposts by introducing combat when I certainly never did.

Your claim was that Pyramids are SDC stone that become MDC due to it's size and the sheer amount.

I point out that you cannot use an SDC pick to damage MDC material. If your statement was true, then an SDC pick could not damage a stone pyramid, because there's so much stone it becomes MDC.

I then pointed out we know you CAN damage a large amount of stone with SDC picks: in fact, we do this. we even do this when in a pyramid shape sometimes.

Ergo, this is proof that your statemnet has to be wrong. Stone cannot become MDC by sheer quantity, because SDC tools can damage them, becasue we know it can and has happened.

You bring up combat, but that doesn't matter in the slightest. It's more difficult to concentrate on picking at stone during combat, but that in no way changes it's physical properties.

in Short, combat doesn't matter. SDC tools can't damage MDC objects. period, ever. that's why laser torches with SDC and MDC settings are a thing. the fact that some MDC objects can be disassembled without damaging them, isn't really relevent, as we're not talking about that. you are, again, the one moving goalposts.

And yes, digging a hill does damage it's SDC in the same way shooting armor damages it's SDC. If you take out a shovel full of dirt from a hill, of course it's still dirt. and if you use an axe to cut a suit of chain mail in half while someone is wearing it, then both halves are still steel and still made of individual chain links. so what?

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:02 pm
  

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You moved the goal post from will not scratch to will not break.(you first said would not even scratch then when that was shut down will not break/destroy.)

The scale of a real world pyramid striking it with a pick amounts to a scratch.
You will not be able to break it with normal combat rounds.
You would need to slowly scratch your way in.
SDC attacks would be for the most part useless on it only resulting in scratches.

Attacking a MDC pyramid with a pick results/amounts in a scratch.
You would not be able to break it with normal combat rounds.
SDC attacks would be for the most part useless on it only resulting in scratches.
Because you can scratch it logically you can slowly scratch your way in.

HMMMM-It is almost like MDC do to size might be logical because of scale of the object and effort to destroy.

My statements even showed that by sheer mass earth becomes immune to destroyed by SDC attacks becoming effective MDC do to the scale.(I have given real world examples of attacks by sdc weapons not being effective.)
You where the one to move it outside combat with digging not me.

You attempted to use outside combat actions that take time beyond combat to prove that sdc can damage things that are for the most immune to destruction by SDC attacks. You then accuse me of moving goal post outside combat, when it is your statements that moved it outside combat.

Digging is not one strike or action it is continued effort. Do you dig with a pick by rolling strike and damage every strike or just make some sort of prolonged skill check if a skill is required? (I would think prolong check. so that would mean you are not inflicting damage when you dig because digging is not combat but prolong action.)

IN real life you can not destroy a stone pyramid or hill with most typical sdc attacks.
You can not destroy them by punching them.
You can not destroy them by shooting them with a handgun even if you shoot them 1K times.
Attacking a hill with a sword would not destroy it, attacking a stone pyramid you can break your sword are the rocks.

Right now you whole stance hinges on dissembling earth with tools being treated as combat damage. Doing it outside of combat. But you call me out for addressing non-combat claiming I moved the goal post. (So you stance requires being addressed outside of combat.)

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:51 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Blue_Lion wrote:
You moved the goal post from will not scratch to will not break.(you first said would not even scratch then when that was shut down will not break/destroy.)


Huh? if you can scratch something, you can destroy it with enough scratches. This...isn't moving the goalpost. they're different ways of saying the same thing: that you can accumulate damage over time it's SDC, no matter how many days worth of melee rounds it takes. It's not moving the goalpost if you simply say the same thing in a slightly different way. :-?

Quote:
The scale of a real world pyramid striking it with a pick amounts to a scratch.
You will not be able to break it with normal combat rounds.
You would need to slowly scratch your way in.
SDC attacks would be for the most part useless on it only resulting in scratches.



Attacking a MDC pyramid with a pick results/amounts in a scratch.
You would not be able to break it with normal combat rounds.
SDC attacks would be for the most part useless on it only resulting in scratches.
Because you can scratch it logically you can slowly scratch your way in.


Wait, why are you talking about combat rounds again? seriously, why? they have nothing to do with my point. Every pick attack makes a scratch that does X SDC (I'm not sure what the damage roll on a pick is). Therefore the number of combat rounds needed to destroy a pyramid is that number multiplied by however many combat rounds it takes to destroy it. Granted, you're likely to win the fight first, but weather those rounds take place inside of or outside of combat have nothing to do with my point...at all. I'm not moving the goalpost, you're making a claim I never made, and claiming I made it. That's not me moving the goalpost, that's you misunderstanding my point in the first place.

Quote:
HMMMM-It is almost like MDC do to size might be logical because of scale of the object and effort to destroy.

My statements even showed that by sheer mass earth becomes immune to destroyed by SDC attacks becoming effective MDC do to the scale.(I have given real world examples of attacks by sdc weapons not being effective.)
You where the one to move it outside combat with digging not me.

You attempted to use outside combat actions that take time beyond combat to prove that sdc can damage things that are for the most immune to destruction by SDC attacks. You then accuse me of moving goal post outside combat, when it is your statements that moved it outside combat.


No. I never said anything about combat actions taken beyond combat time. I never MENTIONED combat time. You did. you can go back and read through my posts again to prove it. You can destroy pyramids inside of combat time or outside of it. There's no reason a battle cannot last days or weeks or months or years -- ever hear of a seige?

Quote:
Digging is not one strike or action it is continued effort.


Source? Nothing says you can't dig in combat. And there's plenty of reasons to dig inside of combat time--ever hear of a foxhole? Keep your head down, hope your buddies cover fire for you, you can tottally do it. This might go down to just a skill roll if your GM wants to abstract it. but if the ground is made of something rougher, he might require you to actually deplete a given value of SDC/MDC in the material to dig a hole. I've had GM's do it both ways. the rules support both methods.

Quote:
Do you dig with a pick by rolling strike and damage every strike or just make some sort of prolonged skill check if a skill is required? (I would think prolong check. so that would mean you are not inflicting damage when you dig because digging is not combat but prolong action.)


Depends on if what i'm attacking is a building or fortification with SDC/MDC that needs to be depleted doesn't it? Sounds like your mixing up the way you/your GM handles digging with what the rules actually say about digging/mining. the game has discrete SDC values for various things. Digging through them is a valid way to get through them.
Quote:
IN real life you can not destroy a stone pyramid or hill with most typical sdc attacks.
You can not destroy them by punching them.
You can not destroy them by shooting them with a handgun even if you shoot them 1K times.
Attacking a hill with a sword would not destroy it, attacking a stone pyramid you can break your sword are the rocks.

Right now you whole stance hinges on dissembling earth with tools being treated as combat damage. Doing it outside of combat. But you call me out for addressing non-combat claiming I moved the goal post. (So you stance requires being addressed outside of combat.)


I made no claim about combat time or non combat time. At all. The game does not limit at all anything you can do in combat time, that sounds like a house rule of yours you are confusing with canon. There are penalties for doing certain actions under pressure in combat, but that's all. And you claimed that you can't dig by dealing damage in combat time. What's your source for that? seriously? point me anywhere it says you can't mine through a wall or bust down a door during combat, because if you can do either of those things, you can also destroy a pyramid in combat. it just takes more time. More time than any random fight is likely to last, but that has no bearing on if it's MDC or MDC. So...no, I think you're still wrong, and you misunderstand my point.

You *CAN* resolve digging away a hill with a skill roll.

OR you can accumulate enough damage.

These systems are parallel, not contradicatory, they are different mechanical ways of expressing the same basic actions and it's up to the GM to decide which is the most appropriate to use in any given situation. The problem appears to be you have confused how you personally resolve a vauge mechanical system with what the books actually say, and the books are quite silent on the matter. You have tools you can use with skill rolls, but they also have combat values. You have Walls and doors (A pyramid exterior is a wall) with SDC values.

Do you use construction/demolition skills to make a breech in a wall? or do you just take a take a tool and attack, doing it's SDC value until it's depleted?

the Game leaves it to the GM to decide which is the most appropriate at any given time. You appear to have decided for yourself that certain things cannot be done in combat, but, that's a personal ruling unless you got a source in the books i've missed?

And more importantly, neither mean that SDC structures are MDC. So I still don't know what point you think you are making. Even if I conceeded you can't drag out combat time to lots of combat rounds while you and your buds slowly deal hundreds of thousands of SDC (And to be clear, I absolutely do not conceed that, because you tottally can, but even if I did hypothetically conceed it) it wouldn't help your overall point that SDC in stone in large piles become MDC because...what about restrictions on combat time change SDC structures to MDC? Even if you were right about combat time, it wouldn't help your point.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:13 pm
  

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It has already been pointed out that attacking MDC with SDC weapons was described as scratches. So you can scratch and dent MDC with sdc see page 355 of RUE. (100 sdc from a prolonged action is can amount to 1 MDC. Scratching your way through would take time.)

So wait can't talk about where we started with combat. Damage is typically a combat mechanic. I use combat attacks to show the same affect to large earth works as is done with sdc attacks are the same as attacks sdc attacks on MDC. That has always been my stance.

Once combat starts it is to late to start digging a fox hole. If you are digging the fox hole in combat you are kind of not fighting back. A hasty fighting position typically takes 10+ min to dig for soldiers today. That is two helmets wide and two m16/M4s longs and 6-12 inches deep. Filling sand bags for a fox hole would take more time.-Fortification are set up before combat and repaired after combat. In combat you take what ever cover is available. (while nothing says you can't dig in combat but if you are using a shovel or E-tool in combat to dig a hole in the ground you are not contributing to the fight.)

I am not confusing a house rule with canon. We are debating beyond the rules, things not covered by the rules. I talk about time beyond combat because it is not measured in actions. The time it takes depends on tools and size of what you are digging.

Explosive would be a damage roll to determine the affect of the attack on the wall while there might be a time to set up damage would be dealt in a single action. A tool would be a skill roll and would be done in more than 1 action(prolonged action). It would be a wast of time to try and calculate the amount of sdc per attack to determine how long it takes to dig.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:10 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1234
Blue_Lion wrote:
It has already been pointed out that attacking MDC with SDC weapons was described as scratches. So you can scratch and dent MDC with sdc see page 355 of RUE. (100 sdc from a prolonged action is can amount to 1 MDC. Scratching your way through would take time.)

So wait can't talk about where we started with combat. Damage is typically a combat mechanic. I use combat attacks to show the same affect to large earth works as is done with sdc attacks are the same as attacks sdc attacks on MDC. That has always been my stance.

Once combat starts it is to late to start digging a fox hole. If you are digging the fox hole in combat you are kind of not fighting back. A hasty fighting position typically takes 10+ min to dig for soldiers today. That is two helmets wide and two m16/M4s longs and 6-12 inches deep. Filling sand bags for a fox hole would take more time.-Fortification are set up before combat and repaired after combat. In combat you take what ever cover is available. (while nothing says you can't dig in combat but if you are using a shovel or E-tool in combat to dig a hole in the ground you are not contributing to the fight.)

I am not confusing a house rule with canon. We are debating beyond the rules, things not covered by the rules. I talk about time beyond combat because it is not measured in actions. The time it takes depends on tools and size of what you are digging.

Explosive would be a damage roll to determine the affect of the attack on the wall while there might be a time to set up damage would be dealt in a single action. A tool would be a skill roll and would be done in more than 1 action(prolonged action). It would be a wast of time to try and calculate the amount of sdc per attack to determine how long it takes to dig.


I remember reading something, a novel I think (possibly in John Ringo War of the Aldnada) where some people were using explosive based improvised foxhole makers. basically they had demolition charges that you set/dropped, and when they detonated they blew a hole in the ground that you could use as a quickie foxhole

i'm not saying how realistic it is... but if you want cover it actually makes sense. I will say however that some form of deploy, it burns /fires a charge into the ground and then blows a charge that tries to blow a column of ground up and out leaving a hole might be more realistic.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:34 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:57 am
Posts: 72
As many who have gone over Niagra Falls in various contraptions learned the hard way, Inertial damage to your soft tissue occurs no matter how much you are protected from external impact damage. Rail guns would be impact damage and a fall. would do damage to the brain from inertia.


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