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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:30 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:18 am
Posts: 41
Hi,

So quick question. Let's examine a simple example.

Aimed shot: takes 2 melee actions.

Logically: you call the aimed shot this turn, but because it takes 2 actions, you actually FIRE the shot on your next turn (aaaiiimmm..........fire!)
Actual gameplay: you call the aimed shot and it fires off instantly, though it burns this action and your last. (aimFIRE!)

Spell casting - lvl 6 - takes 2 melee actions

Logically: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn
Acual gameplay: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn

Sooo....

...yeah. Why the discrepancy? Why the double standard? How do you guys play it? WHY do spells that take more than 1 melee action... you know.. actually TAKE more than one melee action to perform... meanwhile combat actions (like aimed shot etc) happen instantly? (merely consuming 2 actions, but actually happening instantly?)

Help? How do you guys play it? My instinct, given what I've read in the rules.. is that aimed shots etc. should mimic magic. If you want to aim a shot, you START aiming this turn.. and your shot actually GOES OFF next turn.. hence.. TWO ACTIONS... AIM... FIRE...

What do you guys think?

Thanks! :)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:52 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:48 pm
Posts: 846
Location: Top Secret Goverment Thinktank
Meneliki wrote:
Hi,

So quick question. Let's examine a simple example.

Aimed shot: takes 2 melee actions.

Logically: you call the aimed shot this turn, but because it takes 2 actions, you actually FIRE the shot on your next turn (aaaiiimmm..........fire!)
Actual gameplay: you call the aimed shot and it fires off instantly, though it burns this action and your last. (aimFIRE!)

Spell casting - lvl 6 - takes 2 melee actions

Logically: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn
Acual gameplay: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn

Sooo....

...yeah. Why the discrepancy? Why the double standard? How do you guys play it? WHY do spells that take more than 1 melee action... you know.. actually TAKE more than one melee action to perform... meanwhile combat actions (like aimed shot etc) happen instantly? (merely consuming 2 actions, but actually happening instantly?)

Help? How do you guys play it? My instinct, given what I've read in the rules.. is that aimed shots etc. should mimic magic. If you want to aim a shot, you START aiming this turn.. and your shot actually GOES OFF next turn.. hence.. TWO ACTIONS... AIM... FIRE...

What do you guys think?

Thanks! :)


The group I game with has all multiple action activities come off at the end of the last action (i.e. spells, aimed, and called shots fire on the last action). The sole exception being automatic weapon burst fire which takes place over the course of the multiple actions. Any attack that causes SDC or HP damage to the person engaged in the multiple action activity blows that activity.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:16 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1234
SpiritInterface wrote:
Meneliki wrote:
Hi,

So quick question. Let's examine a simple example.

Aimed shot: takes 2 melee actions.

Logically: you call the aimed shot this turn, but because it takes 2 actions, you actually FIRE the shot on your next turn (aaaiiimmm..........fire!)
Actual gameplay: you call the aimed shot and it fires off instantly, though it burns this action and your last. (aimFIRE!)

Spell casting - lvl 6 - takes 2 melee actions

Logically: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn
Acual gameplay: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn

Sooo....

...yeah. Why the discrepancy? Why the double standard? How do you guys play it? WHY do spells that take more than 1 melee action... you know.. actually TAKE more than one melee action to perform... meanwhile combat actions (like aimed shot etc) happen instantly? (merely consuming 2 actions, but actually happening instantly?)

Help? How do you guys play it? My instinct, given what I've read in the rules.. is that aimed shots etc. should mimic magic. If you want to aim a shot, you START aiming this turn.. and your shot actually GOES OFF next turn.. hence.. TWO ACTIONS... AIM... FIRE...

What do you guys think?

Thanks! :)


The group I game with has all multiple action activities come off at the end of the last action (i.e. spells, aimed, and called shots fire on the last action). The sole exception being automatic weapon burst fire which takes place over the course of the multiple actions. Any attack that causes SDC or HP damage to the person engaged in the multiple action activity blows that activity.

Its going to sound like a cop out, but the way i remember it working in my group was it depends on the nature of the multi-action action.
If it was aiming, spell casting or similar, then it would go off on the next action, if it was a power attack, a leap kick, etc. Then it goes off immediately, but consumes two actions to use because there isn't thr long "wind-up" before the action triggers.
I also disagree with the official rules for some wp based skill uses, but thats what house rules are for.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:31 am
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Meneliki wrote:
Actual gameplay: you call the aimed shot and it fires off instantly, though it burns this action and your last. (aimFIRE!)

Spell casting - lvl 6 - takes 2 melee actions

Logically: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn
Acual gameplay: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn


Pardon me, but where does it actually say this? I don't recall ever seeing a rule that says an aimed shot goes off the same turn and it just burns one off the end of your total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:11 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
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Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Look, you have to realize that Palladium's system is a 40 year old kit car held together with bondo and bailing wire. When things break down, the usual solution is twice as much bondo and some duct tape from a grocery store.

In a situation like that, you're going to have some weirdness, and just have to rule on which way it falls.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:34 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Meneliki wrote:
Actual gameplay: you call the aimed shot and it fires off instantly, though it burns this action and your last. (aimFIRE!)

Spell casting - lvl 6 - takes 2 melee actions

Logically: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn
Acual gameplay: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn


Pardon me, but where does it actually say this? I don't recall ever seeing a rule that says an aimed shot goes off the same turn and it just burns one off the end of your total.

I had the same question. It is not explicit stated either way but I always thought it was pretty clear that it goes off on the last attack.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:41 pm
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
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Location: a west coast
yeah, i think somebody's fellow roleplayer took them for a ride here. that said, i'm not sure exactly where the rules for multi action attacks is located.....

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:54 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Posts: 15675
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Mark Hall wrote:
Look, you have to realize that Palladium's system is a 40 year old kit car held together with bondo and bailing wire. When things break down, the usual solution is twice as much bondo and some duct tape from a grocery store.

In a situation like that, you're going to have some weirdness, and just have to rule on which way it falls.


Apt! My point however, was mostly that he's complaining that the Rules As Written are inconsistant, but that the rules don't actually say what he says they say. It simply says it counts as two attacks and it's up to the GM to decide if the attack goes off on the first or second attack. So if he wants it to be consistant with how casting spells works, all he has to do is start playing that way. the Rules seem to be consistant. I know I and every group I've played in always ruled that aimed and called shots go off on the second turn.

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Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:20 pm
  

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Priest

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
mostly that he's complaining that the Rules As Written are inconsistant, but that the rules don't actually say what he says they say. It simply says it counts as two attacks and it's up to the GM to decide if the attack goes off on the first or second attack.


This is my understanding as well.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:34 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7236
it is at least heavily implied in the rules for interrupting spellcasting that a 2 action spell goes off on the second action, not the first. otherwise you wouldn't be able to interrupt it any more than you could interrupt a 1 action spell.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:25 am
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:11 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Glendale, Ca
Comment: Rifts, Robotech, and Palladium Fantasy - in that order
Meneliki wrote:
Hi,

So quick question. Let's examine a simple example.

Aimed shot: takes 2 melee actions.

Logically: you call the aimed shot this turn, but because it takes 2 actions, you actually FIRE the shot on your next turn (aaaiiimmm..........fire!)
Actual gameplay: you call the aimed shot and it fires off instantly, though it burns this action and your last. (aimFIRE!)

Spell casting - lvl 6 - takes 2 melee actions

Logically: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn
Acual gameplay: you start the spell this turn, it goes off next turn


Sooo....

...yeah. Why the discrepancy? Why the double standard? How do you guys play it? WHY do spells that take more than 1 melee action... you know.. actually TAKE more than one melee action to perform... meanwhile combat actions (like aimed shot etc) happen instantly? (merely consuming 2 actions, but actually happening instantly?)

Help? How do you guys play it? My instinct, given what I've read in the rules.. is that aimed shots etc. should mimic magic. If you want to aim a shot, you START aiming this turn.. and your shot actually GOES OFF next turn.. hence.. TWO ACTIONS... AIM... FIRE...

What do you guys think?




Thanks! :)


Use initiative rolls for all actions of players' attacks per melee

The spell casting or weapon aiming takes 2 actions to give the target an opportunity to win at least one of the two initiative rolls before the attack die roll. If the target wins one of them, it can run or do something defensive or offensive. (two simple 1D20 initiative contest)

Attacks are instant - and no initiative rolls required, as well - if target is unaware of such an attack.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:57 pm
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Shark_Force wrote:
it is at least heavily implied in the rules for interrupting spellcasting that a 2 action spell goes off on the second action, not the first. otherwise you wouldn't be able to interrupt it any more than you could interrupt a 1 action spell.


Agreed.
But I don’t think there’s anything saying that Aimed Shots work any different.

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Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:05 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:48 pm
Posts: 846
Location: Top Secret Goverment Thinktank
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
it is at least heavily implied in the rules for interrupting spellcasting that a 2 action spell goes off on the second action, not the first. otherwise you wouldn't be able to interrupt it any more than you could interrupt a 1 action spell.


Agreed.
But I don’t think there’s anything saying that Aimed Shots work and different.


It implies that aimed and called shots take time, it makes suppressing fire worth something. Since you actually have to do damage to the shooter (i.e. SDC or HP) and not just damage their armor it isn't that easy to do.

_________________
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Una Salus Victis Nullam Sperare Salutem
Sic vis pacem, Para bellum
Audentes fortuna iuvat
O Tolmon Nika
Oderint Dum Metuant


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:34 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5811
I think we had the same problem with power punches before: I think most players infer that things with multi-action costs only happen after their cost is payable (except dodges or entangles), but there wasn't language for that until even the 1st printing of RUE, as we can see on the 2nd-last page (18/19) of https://www.palladiumbooks.com/images/D ... Eratta.pdf for RUE p 346 they added in red (new) text the italic-fonted "blow lands on the second action" parenthesized.

I think it's pretty reasonable to think aimed/called/A&C shots taking 2-3 actions would also follow this pattern.

A simpler way to do it would simply be to have the "shot" always take 1 attack, and have "aim it" and "call it" alternate options one can take 1-2 actions prior to shooting to benefit it.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:04 am
  

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Priest

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
SpiritInterface wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
it is at least heavily implied in the rules for interrupting spellcasting that a 2 action spell goes off on the second action, not the first. otherwise you wouldn't be able to interrupt it any more than you could interrupt a 1 action spell.


Agreed.
But I don’t think there’s anything saying that Aimed Shots work and different.


It implies that aimed and called shots take time, it makes suppressing fire worth something. Since you actually have to do damage to the shooter (i.e. SDC or HP) and not just damage their armor it isn't that easy to do.


I'm not certain we're having the same conversation.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:44 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Instead of applying multi-action costs to these things, maybe it would be simpler to define "Aim" as a form of attack which gives +2 to hit with whatever ranged weapon you aimed with if shot immediately after aiming.

Similar for power punch: call it "Big Windup" and the effect is that if you deliver an attack in the next action with whatever hand you pulled back, the damage is doubled.

Or "prep spell" for higher-level spells.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:52 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:34 pm
Posts: 81
Mark Hall wrote:
Look, you have to realize that Palladium's system is a 40 year old kit car held together with bondo and bailing wire. When things break down, the usual solution is twice as much bondo and some duct tape from a grocery store.

In a situation like that, you're going to have some weirdness, and just have to rule on which way it falls.


SO your saying that palladium's rules are like some rednecks old chevy camaro...got it :lol: 8) :twisted:


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