Time Holes in Time Holes

[crazyfoxdemon]

Is it possible to cast Time Hole while in another Time Hole?

I'm trying to figure out ways to give myself even more time dilation schenaniganry.

[taalismn]

Is it possible to cast Time Hole while in another Time Hole?

I'm trying to figure out ways to give myself even more time dilation schenaniganry.

I'd rule that comes under 'Divide by Zero' with anybody without a massive thaumaturgical laboratory with multiple seal-spells and safety pentagrams trying will result in something like 'Lucky, you get the skin flayed off your casting hand and you get a headache like nothing you've experienced before. Unlucky: your inverted corpse gets dumped back into real-time."

[dreicunan]

Sure, but you'd just be wasting your PPE for no extra time dilation benefit (at most, you'd get an extra 20 ft area per level space separate from the original space to control...which would be fairly pointless, as only the caster and the casters possessions go into the time hole). You'd be teleporting yourself to yet another area of the same limbo like dimension, so time would pass at the same rate as the first one.

[Orin J.]

The description is that it teleports you to a stasis field in a blank dimension of some kind rather than creating a pocket dimension, so i'd guess that casting time hole while IN the time hole has the incredible utility of teleporting you back to the exact position in the same stasis field you were when you first cast time hole to get there.

[Warshield73]

I'd rule that comes under 'Divide by Zero' with anybody without a massive thaumaturgical laboratory with multiple seal-spells and safety pentagrams trying will result in something like 'Lucky, you get the skin flayed off your casting hand and you get a headache like nothing you've experienced before. Unlucky: your inverted corpse gets dumped back into real-time."

I am copying that and using it whenever a player asks to do something like this. Bravo.

[ShadowLogan]

Is it possible to cast Time Hole while in another Time Hole?

I'm trying to figure out ways to give myself even more time dilation schenaniganry.

I'm going to go with No, all you might get away with is either A. extend the spell duration or B. you move to another location in the dimension.

Though I have to wonder if traveling to the Astral Plane from within a Time Hole would have the desired effect as both involve time dilation, but both go to another plane of existence.

A TW might be able to create something based on time-hole by altering spell properties (see RUE "sticky tires" example based on Carpet of Adhesion) and/or via spell chain.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is it possible to cast Time Hole while in another Time Hole?

I'm trying to figure out ways to give myself even more time dilation schenaniganry.

I'd rule that comes under 'Divide by Zero' with anybody without a massive thaumaturgical laboratory with multiple seal-spells and safety pentagrams trying will result in something like 'Lucky, you get the skin flayed off your casting hand and you get a headache like nothing you've experienced before. Unlucky: your inverted corpse gets dumped back into real-time."

Is there a safety pentagram somewhere in the books i've missed?

[Axelmania]

I don't see any problem with doing it. Kind of like if Laharl goes into his sword's item world and steals an axe from a monster inside that world and then goes into that axe's item world.

[The Beast]

Is it possible to cast Time Hole while in another Time Hole?

I'm trying to figure out ways to give myself even more time dilation schenaniganry.

There's no need to go full timey wimey wibbly wobbly on us though. I can't believe nobody made a joke with that in it here yet.

Is it possible to cast Time Hole while in another Time Hole?

I'm trying to figure out ways to give myself even more time dilation schenaniganry.

I'm going to go with No, all you might get away with is either A. extend the spell duration or B. you move to another location in the dimension.

Though I have to wonder if traveling to the Astral Plane from within a Time Hole would have the desired effect as both involve time dilation, but both go to another plane of existence.

A TW might be able to create something based on time-hole by altering spell properties (see RUE "sticky tires" example based on Carpet of Adhesion) and/or via spell chain.

Why can't it be some sort of Inception-level stuff, only with time instead of dreams?

[Axelmania]

We could have it with dreams too if Dream Personae got pools too...

But actually since a Dream Dancer/Maker can physically enter a pool, and you can enter someone's pool by Astrally Projecting while grabbing their head and using Telepathy, you can sort of do that too..

[taalismn]

[
Is there a safety pentagram somewhere in the books i've missed?

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm imagining something like a multi-layered inverted Circle of Protection/Energy Field/Impenetrable Wall, with add-on wards for Constrain Being or dampening magic energies.

Something not likely to be well-known outside magic research organizations.

[ShadowLogan]

Why can't it be some sort of Inception-level stuff, only with time instead of dreams?

Time Hole works by teleporting you to a specific dimension. AFAIK you can not use INTER-Dimensional Travel methods for INTRA-Dimensional Travel (ex. I can't cast Dimensional Teleport while in the 'Burbs to travel to Atlantis directly). This means if you are in the Time Hole Dimension/Plane, then you can't cast another TH to take you to the same dimension/plane.

This is why I think for this to work you'd have to use a different method each time you want to get a time-shift effect to stack. You might be able to do a Time Hole -> Astral Projection ->Time Hole (pop your astral self to this dimension), but to get any more time-shifting you'd need other time-shifting effects elsewhere in the chain, but regardless you'll need to work out a PPE source (TH will eat into PPE reserves rather quickly).

[Orin J.]

Why can't it be some sort of Inception-level stuff, only with time instead of dreams?

Time Hole works by teleporting you to a specific dimension. AFAIK you can not use INTER-Dimensional Travel methods for INTRA-Dimensional Travel (ex. I can't cast Dimensional Teleport while in the 'Burbs to travel to Atlantis directly). This means if you are in the Time Hole Dimension/Plane, then you can't cast another TH to take you to the same dimension/plane.

This is why I think for this to work you'd have to use a different method each time you want to get a time-shift effect to stack. You might be able to do a Time Hole -> Astral Projection ->Time Hole (pop your astral self to this dimension), but to get any more time-shifting you'd need other time-shifting effects elsewhere in the chain, but regardless you'll need to work out a PPE source (TH will eat into PPE reserves rather quickly).

wouldn't using time hole as an astral projection hunt your projection back into your body? otherwise your coporeal form and astral form are in the same plane of existence, which seems.....troublesome. not to mention they're now both in the same place at effectively different rates of chronal speed.

[eliakon]

[
Is there a safety pentagram somewhere in the books i've missed?

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm imagining something like a multi-layered inverted Circle of Protection/Energy Field/Impenetrable Wall, with add-on wards for Constrain Being or dampening magic energies.

Something not likely to be well-known outside magic research organizations.

We have seen pentagrams used for protection/summoning and magical research in at least two books (BTS 1e and PF 1e) as well as Pentacles used in certain summoning spells.
So I could totally see them being used in certain advanced research applications and other stuff that doesn't get stated out in books because it isn't of game utility (like the skills and equipment used to engage in genetic research, or how to build starships, or how TW factories work et multiple cetera)

[taalismn]

[
We have seen pentagrams used for protection/summoning and magical research in at least two books (BTS 1e and PF 1e) as well as Pentacles used in certain summoning spells.
So I could totally see them being used in certain advanced research applications and other stuff that doesn't get stated out in books because it isn't of game utility (like the skills and equipment used to engage in genetic research, or how to build starships, or how TW factories work et multiple cetera)

I'm now picturing some metamagery-studies institute in Lazlo or the United Worlds of Warlock, with a fifty-layer-deep nested containment pentagram for studying various magical phenomena.
Maybe something like a Deep Core Chromo-Hole 'expedition' where foolhardy/very brave/stupid mages volunteer to see how many nested Time Holes they can create...stationary chrononauts testing the boundaries of magical understanding.
Only we never get the specific details of what happened during the experiments, only vague rumors.

[Orin J.]

[
We have seen pentagrams used for protection/summoning and magical research in at least two books (BTS 1e and PF 1e) as well as Pentacles used in certain summoning spells.
So I could totally see them being used in certain advanced research applications and other stuff that doesn't get stated out in books because it isn't of game utility (like the skills and equipment used to engage in genetic research, or how to build starships, or how TW factories work et multiple cetera)

I'm now picturing some metamagery-studies institute in Lazlo or the United Worlds of Warlock, with a fifty-layer-deep nested containment pentagram for studying various magical phenomena.
Maybe something like a Deep Core Chromo-Hole 'expedition' where foolhardy/very brave/stupid mages volunteer to see how many nested Time Holes they can create...stationary chrononauts testing the boundaries of magical understanding.
Only we never get the specific details of what happened during the experiments, only vague rumors.

and I am picturing a VERY disgruntled spatial mage with a 600-page diagram of that containment pentagram lividly explaining why lazlo MUST construct one and advance the field of magical research or they will be as good as dooming the city, while someone on the board calmly explains that what he is trying to create is a work to rival the old ones themselves and attempting to empower it would more likely cause the planet itself to shatter from the strain of every ley line on earth suddenly being drained of all power.

[taalismn]

[
and I am picturing a VERY disgruntled spatial mage with a 600-page diagram of that containment pentagram lividly explaining why lazlo MUST construct one and advance the field of magical research or they will be as good as dooming the city, while someone on the board calmly explains that what he is trying to create is a work to rival the old ones themselves and attempting to empower it would more likely cause the planet itself to shatter from the strain of every ley line on earth suddenly being drained of all power.

It's the magical equivalent of CERN?

[Axelmania]

AFAIK you can not use INTER-Dimensional Travel methods for INTRA-Dimensional Travel (ex. I can't cast Dimensional Teleport while in the 'Burbs to travel to Atlantis directly).

Wormwood would be the first to question this assumption as you had Erin Tarn thinking you could use a rift to skip from America > SA to bypass the Vampire Kingdoms in Central America.

This would supposedly be what happened to her had there not been some weird mistake, probably one of the effects described in Megaversal Builder... while in March 2003 "Shifter Revisited" didn't do so, RUE 122's "Rifting on the Same World" did, with a "half the usual PPE for jumping dimensions" note.

We could take this to mean that this is exclusive to the Shifter OCC though, so intra-dimensional travel with spells like Dimensional Portal or Dimensional Port (period, not just at a discount!) might only be possible for that OCC and not other mages?

Pretty amazing benefit though, since rather than 1/2 cost it's almost like 1/4 cost since you're only needing to cast it once!

[eliakon]

[
and I am picturing a VERY disgruntled spatial mage with a 600-page diagram of that containment pentagram lividly explaining why lazlo MUST construct one and advance the field of magical research or they will be as good as dooming the city, while someone on the board calmly explains that what he is trying to create is a work to rival the old ones themselves and attempting to empower it would more likely cause the planet itself to shatter from the strain of every ley line on earth suddenly being drained of all power.

It's the magical equivalent of CERN?

In a long ago game a group of the parties TWs got funding to construct a nested set of Protection Circle Superior devices.
The first was a circle ten feet across
The second was a circle ten feet and six inches across
The third was a circle eleven feet across
Et multiple cetera

This was done near enough to a ley line that all of the devices could be run off of an ambient magic drain (basically an artificial TW ley line that was constructed to run power from the line to the facility)

The devices were set to activate all at once, with the intention to "see how large an ambient magical field (available PPE, as you get 20 per circle per activation) we can generate in the core ring"

Another group of TWs, Diabolists and Line Drawers spent most of the game working on combining the three disciplines to try and see if they could figure out 'magical spell programing'. The main goal of the quest involved recruiting most of the Diabolists of Kingsdale for the "Project Logic" in which they did brute force research to try and discover logic gate wards (If, And, Or, etc. )

So I have a soft spot in my heart for mega projects for mages. Why should the techies get all the Manhattan Projects and Apollo Programs after all?

[taalismn]

So I have a soft spot in my heart for mega projects for mages. Why should the techies get all the Manhattan Projects and Apollo Programs after all?

Indeed.
Get your stone mages to whip you up some containment structures.
Have your leyline wizards bend some lines.
Buy off some Temporal Wizards to set up some temporal distortion zones.

Make sure you have plenty of healing spells ready.....

[ShadowLogan]

wouldn't using time hole as an astral projection hunt your projection back into your body? otherwise your coporeal form and astral form are in the same plane of existence, which seems.....troublesome. not to mention they're now both in the same place at effectively different rates of chronal speed.

As I said "you might" be able to do the TH -> AP - TH, the 2nd TH was the possible sticky point.

Off hand I don't recall if regular AP allows you to co-exist and astral plane with single casting or not (pop into the astral plane allowing one to vist from Madhaven to the Colorado Barnies, a much greater distance than can be travel at Mach 1 in the aloted time). I know there is a class in SB3 that does it, which if it works for regular AP would give access to the 2nd TH, though I'm not sure how the time dilation would stack here.

Wormwood would be the first to question this assumption as you had Erin Tarn thinking you could use a rift to skip from America > SA to bypass the Vampire Kingdoms in Central America.

While it probably can be happen, it is not a controllable feature AFAIK requiring a secondary phenomena to achieve.

Ex. Bob the mage can't cast Dimensional Teleport alone with any reliability that it would allow intra-dimensional travel. He would need a spell (Plane Skip IIRC) or an ability (Shifter mentioned) or some phenomena (ex. ley line storm) that alters the effect.