Question about Machine People

[SolonIsonomia]

My apologies if this was answered elsewhere: the Machine People RCC in the Phase World sourcebook does not include a progression of RCC skills as the Machine People (Person?) increases in levels. Is that an oversight (similar to the missing equipment section) or is it a design feature (as in RCCs do not get additional RCC related skills as they level up and only receive additional Secondary Skills)?

[SolonIsonomia]

Also, oops, this probably should've been in the Dimension Books!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Correct, Some classes/Races don't get new OCC/RCC skills as they level.

[Warshield73]

They get additional secondary skills as they level up and they have a fair number of RCC and RCC related skills so I believe this was a feature.

Also, most AI characters don't get additional skills as they level up and Machine People are AI.

[Axelmania]

This is why Machine People love Rogue Scholars.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

They get additional secondary skills as they level up and they have a fair number of RCC and RCC related skills so I believe this was a feature.

Also, most AI characters don't get additional skills as they level up and Machine People are AI.

They are not, actually. They are fully sentient, non-carbon-based life forms.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They get additional secondary skills as they level up and they have a fair number of RCC and RCC related skills so I believe this was a feature.

Also, most AI characters don't get additional skills as they level up and Machine People are AI.

They are not, actually. They are fully sentient, non-carbon-based life forms.

Rifts AI Includes full sentient examples. They still don't get new skills with levels. Robot R.C.C. in the Sourcebook One has it I think.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

They get additional secondary skills as they level up and they have a fair number of RCC and RCC related skills so I believe this was a feature.

Also, most AI characters don't get additional skills as they level up and Machine People are AI.

They are not, actually. They are fully sentient, non-carbon-based life forms.

Rifts AI Includes full sentient examples. They still don't get new skills with levels. Robot R.C.C. in the Sourcebook One has it I think.

Fair enough (and i was never stating they should get new skills as they level; that is a balance issue for me, not a "well they should be able to because..." issue, and they are plenty cool without them) but Robots cant reproduce.

Machine People are literally living machines, not AIs.

Thats the only point i was making.

As to the RCC related skill thing... meh? Class is cool without them.

[Warshield73]

They get additional secondary skills as they level up and they have a fair number of RCC and RCC related skills so I believe this was a feature.

Also, most AI characters don't get additional skills as they level up and Machine People are AI.

They are not, actually. They are fully sentient, non-carbon-based life forms.

Rifts AI Includes full sentient examples. They still don't get new skills with levels. Robot R.C.C. in the Sourcebook One has it I think.

Fair enough (and i was never stating they should get new skills as they level; that is a balance issue for me, not a "well they should be able to because..." issue, and they are plenty cool without them) but Robots cant reproduce.

Machine People are literally living machines, not AIs.

Thats the only point i was making.

As to the RCC related skill thing... meh? Class is cool without them.

First, I'm not sure I see a distinction. Any AI with a factory facility can reproduce, they are still AI. The RCC that they are limited to makes that clear. They are a self replicating machines but there programing has been limited. If they could choose an OCC you might have a point but they very clearly fall into the realm of AI. In game terms I will give they are sentient (if we were having a philosophical discussion I have problems with the term in general) but so are many PB AI's.

What I am talking about here is not philosophy though it is strictly an in game term like psionics, or magic. AI's are handled a certain way and Machine people, while incredibly advanced and versatile, are definitely treated like other PB AI's. So again I am just talking about this as a gaming term here, not philosophically.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They get additional secondary skills as they level up and they have a fair number of RCC and RCC related skills so I believe this was a feature.

Also, most AI characters don't get additional skills as they level up and Machine People are AI.

They are not, actually. They are fully sentient, non-carbon-based life forms.

Rifts AI Includes full sentient examples. They still don't get new skills with levels. Robot R.C.C. in the Sourcebook One has it I think.

Fair enough (and i was never stating they should get new skills as they level; that is a balance issue for me, not a "well they should be able to because..." issue, and they are plenty cool without them) but Robots cant reproduce.

Machine People are literally living machines, not AIs.

Thats the only point i was making.

As to the RCC related skill thing... meh? Class is cool without them.

What's the difference between what Machine People do, and a regular Sentient AI Robot who builds a factory to build other Sentient AI robots, putting in some proceedure to mix and match some features between pairs for variety?

They're Nanite Robots. the Fact they are designed to reproduce in a way to resemble how carbon-based life forms reproduce on the surface doesn't change what's happening here.

Now I'm not calling Machine People dumb robots, They're sentients with the usual suite of basic rights, I'm just saying the fact they're nanite robots who can build tiny upadted versions of themselves who can then absorb mass to upgrade themselves to the usual standard is not functionally any different from ARCHIE III using his factory to create other Fully Sentient AI which he releases into the world, a thing that that same Robot RCC Entry I mentioned says he does semi-reguarlly. Both are Sentient Machines reproducing and building other Sentient Machines who are fully independant and sentient in their own right. The way Machine People do it is cool and clever but not fundamentally different.

[eliakon]

I would just like to point out here also that robots CAN reproduce.
Aliens Unlimited in fact has entire races of robotic species.
And the Machine People.
And maybe the Haydonites
And the Manhunters
I could go on...
But the point is that being a robot is just a background detail. It doesn't set any limitations or limits on your intelligence, or capabilities... just that your a robot instead of a biological being, or an energy being, or a crystalline being or...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

First, I'm not sure I see a distinction. Any AI with a factory facility can reproduce, they are still AI.

No, any AI with the appropriate skills to create more robots (Robot Mechanics, etc) could potentially create more AI (and could fail their skill roll).

Machine People need none of that. They simply reproduce because they choose to, no particular skills or facilities required. Just two machine people.

The RCC that they are limited to makes that clear. They are a self replicating machines but there programing has been limited.

Ahh, yes, choosing 12 skills from literally any category is quite limited. They aren't particularly limited.

If they could choose an OCC you might have a point but they very clearly fall into the realm of AI.

In what way? They aren't nearly as limited as the AI under the Robot RCC. Even the Neural Intelligence is limited to what it was "programmed" with (and those skill packages are very constrained) - whereas Machine People can choose any career they like (and make the choice themselves, they are not "programmed") by choosing those 12 skills from any category without any limitation whatsoever.

Even the most advanced AI, doesn't choose what to be in life. They start out pre-programmed. Machine People do not.

AI's are handled a certain way and Machine people, while incredibly advanced and versatile, are definitely treated like other PB AI's. So again I am just talking about this as a gaming term here, not philosophically.

Except they aren't handled that way at all. You dont buy skill programs. You dont come pre-programmed.

And... Machine People can gain attributes and MDC from physical skills. They are nothing like even the most advanced Neural Intelligence Robots.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

What's the difference between what Machine People do, and a regular Sentient AI Robot who builds a factory to build other Sentient AI robots, putting in some proceedure to mix and match some features between pairs for variety?

Well, as i pointed out already, even a Neural Intelligence would need to have been pre-programmed with the required skills to build a factory, build and design robots, etc. And can fail those rolls.

ANY Machine Person can replicate with another Machine Person. That young Machine Person then learns whatever skills it likes.

They're Nanite Robots. the Fact they are designed to reproduce in a way to resemble how carbon-based life forms reproduce on the surface doesn't change what's happening here.

Now I'm not calling Machine People dumb robots, They're sentients with the usual suite of basic rights, I'm just saying the fact they're nanite robots who can build tiny upadted versions of themselves who can then absorb mass to upgrade themselves to the usual standard is not functionally any different from ARCHIE III using his factory to create other Fully Sentient AI which he releases into the world, a thing that that same Robot RCC Entry I mentioned says he does semi-reguarlly. Both are Sentient Machines reproducing and building other Sentient Machines who are fully independant and sentient in their own right. The way Machine People do it is cool and clever but not fundamentally different.

Except they aren't, because even the most advanced Neural Intelligence could not later learn to build more robots. It would have to be imparted with those skills at its creation. Machine People do not have this limitation at all. They dont have to know anything about creating other robots or programming to produce offspring.

ARCHIE himself is no longer a true robot or AI, either, so its a massively flawed example to start with (as he has mutated and grown beyond his original programming).

[eliakon]

What's the difference between what Machine People do, and a regular Sentient AI Robot who builds a factory to build other Sentient AI robots, putting in some proceedure to mix and match some features between pairs for variety?

Well, as i pointed out already, even a Neural Intelligence would need to have been pre-programmed with the required skills to build a factory, build and design robots, etc. And can fail those rolls.

ANY Machine Person can replicate with another Machine Person. That young Machine Person then learns whatever skills it likes.

So they aren't NIs.
Your point is?
NI is not the only kind of AI.
It is the most advanced kind of AI that you can build and program via mass production 'open source technology' sure... but that hardly makes it the only kind of AI. The Machine People for example are non-NI AIs so is Archie, and the Manhunters, and the AU mechanical races, and the Haydonites, and The Machine, and 'Noids, and plenty of other examples.

They're Nanite Robots. the Fact they are designed to reproduce in a way to resemble how carbon-based life forms reproduce on the surface doesn't change what's happening here.

Now I'm not calling Machine People dumb robots, They're sentients with the usual suite of basic rights, I'm just saying the fact they're nanite robots who can build tiny upadted versions of themselves who can then absorb mass to upgrade themselves to the usual standard is not functionally any different from ARCHIE III using his factory to create other Fully Sentient AI which he releases into the world, a thing that that same Robot RCC Entry I mentioned says he does semi-reguarlly. Both are Sentient Machines reproducing and building other Sentient Machines who are fully independant and sentient in their own right. The way Machine People do it is cool and clever but not fundamentally different.

Except they aren't, because even the most advanced Neural Intelligence could not later learn to build more robots. It would have to be imparted with those skills at its creation. Machine People do not have this limitation at all. They dont have to know anything about creating other robots or programming to produce offspring.

Again your making a flawed mistake by assuming that NI = AI.
There is more to AI than just NI we know this because there are AIs that are more advanced that mere NIs.

ARCHIE himself is no longer a true robot or AI, either, so its a massively flawed example to start with (as he has mutated and grown beyond his original programming).

Archie is an AI though.
Flat out called that over and over again.
So yeah... he is a good example.
He is not the NI that was built before sure, but he IS an AI.
In fact Archie is a perfect example of the fact that there are AIs more advanced than mere NIs.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would just like to point out here also that robots CAN reproduce.
Aliens Unlimited in fact has entire races of robotic species.
And the Machine People.
And maybe the Haydonites
And the Manhunters
I could go on...
But the point is that being a robot is just a background detail. It doesn't set any limitations or limits on your intelligence, or capabilities... just that your a robot instead of a biological being, or an energy being, or a crystalline being or...

You might want to inform Kevin of that who seems to hate giving them skills as they level....

[Warshield73]

First, I'm not sure I see a distinction. Any AI with a factory facility can reproduce, they are still AI.

No, any AI with the appropriate skills to create more robots (Robot Mechanics, etc) could potentially create more AI (and could fail their skill roll).

Machine People need none of that. They simply reproduce because they choose to, no particular skills or facilities required. Just two machine people.

Again I am not sure what the issue is. This is a machine race, which by definition is an AI. There are lots of different kinds of AIs but they are limited by this.
No Magic or psi. Now plenty of flesh and blood races have one of these limitations but very few have both and most have a reason. Good example is the Seljuk and magic.

As for reproduction it is very clear in DB 2: PW, page 79

Their programming makes this desire to mate and reproduce something as intense and special as among most flesh-and-blood species

It doesn't just say that it takes 2 MPs it is specific, they are programmed to do it. Also every MP has Robot Mechanics as an RCC skill so they are programmed with the skill.

The RCC that they are limited to makes that clear. They are a self replicating machines but there programing has been limited.

Ahh, yes, choosing 12 skills from literally any category is quite limited. They aren't particularly limited.

They have a lot of skills but they are limited.
There will never be an MP without basic math. Take her/him from the parents lock it in a box it will still have basic math.
Every MP will have com skills at +10% plus IQ bonus. no lower no higher.

If they could choose an OCC you might have a point but they very clearly fall into the realm of AI.

In what way? They aren't nearly as limited as the AI under the Robot RCC. Even the Neural Intelligence is limited to what it was "programmed" with (and those skill packages are very constrained) - whereas Machine People can choose any career they like (and make the choice themselves, they are not "programmed") by choosing those 12 skills from any category without any limitation whatsoever.

Even the most advanced AI, doesn't choose what to be in life. They start out pre-programmed. Machine People do not.

Again AI doesn't mean NI. They are clearly more advanced than an NI but they are programmed.

AI's are handled a certain way and Machine people, while incredibly advanced and versatile, are definitely treated like other PB AI's. So again I am just talking about this as a gaming term here, not philosophically.

Except they aren't handled that way at all. You dont buy skill programs. You dont come pre-programmed.

And... Machine People can gain attributes and MDC from physical skills. They are nothing like even the most advanced Neural Intelligence Robots.

They are a unique mechanical race absolutely but they are AIs. Not NIs but still programmed machines

[eliakon]

I would just like to point out here also that robots CAN reproduce.
Aliens Unlimited in fact has entire races of robotic species.
And the Machine People.
And maybe the Haydonites
And the Manhunters
I could go on...
But the point is that being a robot is just a background detail. It doesn't set any limitations or limits on your intelligence, or capabilities... just that your a robot instead of a biological being, or an energy being, or a crystalline being or...

You might want to inform Kevin of that who seems to hate giving them skills as they level....

lot of races get that problem too, not just machines.
Heck entire universes have that problem.
I'm not going to sweat that this AI race has to go to school to pick up skills.

[Curbludgeon]

I don't have an issue with allowing a Machine Person to meld with an external intelligence running a skill program, with melding skill bonuses offsetting any detriment from it being less than fully integrated with the MP. I could see value in a soft cap of number of skillsoft swaps/week or whatever, although any limit that keeps hotswapping as a noncombat activity is likely sufficient.

[Warshield73]

I would just like to point out here also that robots CAN reproduce.
Aliens Unlimited in fact has entire races of robotic species.
And the Machine People.
And maybe the Haydonites
And the Manhunters
I could go on...
But the point is that being a robot is just a background detail. It doesn't set any limitations or limits on your intelligence, or capabilities... just that your a robot instead of a biological being, or an energy being, or a crystalline being or...

You might want to inform Kevin of that who seems to hate giving them skills as they level....

lot of races get that problem too, not just machines.
Heck entire universes have that problem.
I'm not going to sweat that this AI race has to go to school to pick up skills.

Neil deGrasse Tyson when asked about the definition of a planet said something to the effect of "the universe is under no obligation to make sense to you". I think PB has over embraced this idea for there universes.