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 Post subject: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:39 pm
  

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Knight

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Looking for opinions: would they be able to reproduce with whatever species they've taken the form of?

If not, and they can only reproduce with other auto-Gs: would they both need to assume the same racial form, and would their offspring be initially in that form until they ate some different DNA?


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:21 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Reading closely, nothing in the Auto-G's discription indicates they have an exception for the usual "No cross breeding ever" rules. This is further backed up by the fact that the CS has isolated certain unique Enzymes that are always present in Auto-G's whatever race or form they take and is a reliable way of identifying them proves they can never truely become another race in EVERY way.

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You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:04 am
  

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Knight

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The no crossbreeds rule is flexible enough to allow all kinds of inter-human shenanigans (even wulfen+psihound) and wasn't there some theory on auto-Gs being mutated humans like psi-stalkers and psi-ghosts? Reminds me of those gypsy shapeshifters in Mystic Russia.

Even if it is auto+auto the question still remains: would their occupied racial form matter?

Like perhaps an "Orc Auto-G" (an Auto-G manifesting orc DNA) could only procreate with another "Orc Auto-G" and would create an "Orc auto-G" baby who wouldn't be able to leave orc form until its parent taught it to manifest another race through imbibing DNA?

In the case of fathers, they could probably race-swap after fertilizing, but I wonder if perhaps the mother would need to remain in a race during pregnancy to avoid creating complications for a fetus.

Another idea though, to reduce complications: have a fetus automatically change race with the mother. So if a "conceived as a 10ft troll" baby's mom changes troll>gnome then the auto-G baby would be born an auto-G gnome?


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:44 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
The no crossbreeds rule is flexible enough to allow all kinds of inter-human shenanigans (even wulfen+psihound) and wasn't there some theory on auto-Gs being mutated humans like psi-stalkers and psi-ghosts? Reminds me of those gypsy shapeshifters in Mystic Russia.

Even if it is auto+auto the question still remains: would their occupied racial form matter?

Like perhaps an "Orc Auto-G" (an Auto-G manifesting orc DNA) could only procreate with another "Orc Auto-G" and would create an "Orc auto-G" baby who wouldn't be able to leave orc form until its parent taught it to manifest another race through imbibing DNA?

In the case of fathers, they could probably race-swap after fertilizing, but I wonder if perhaps the mother would need to remain in a race during pregnancy to avoid creating complications for a fetus.

Another idea though, to reduce complications: have a fetus automatically change race with the mother. So if a "conceived as a 10ft troll" baby's mom changes troll>gnome then the auto-G baby would be born an auto-G gnome?


Sure, the rules *could* have allowed those shenanigans, but they didn't. The example you showed was specifically spelled out by the rules. Without such an explict exception, the default ban remains in place.

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Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:24 pm
  

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Knight

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Or sets a precedent? If auto-Gs are human variants the standard allowance of human interbreeding is there anyway.

Auto-Gs have a "base species" of auto-G but also an adopted species including that DNA: perhaps they are like chimeras when impersonating different species?

*rechecks* WB30p27 describes them as a "feared D-Bee" but we should keep in mind that Atlanteans as well as humans from the 3 galaxies, HU, Palladium Fantasy, etc. are all d-bees in respect to Rifts Earth too...

Quote:
they call themselves Earthlings and claim their natural appearance is "human"


"without actually being a supernatural being or true creature of magic" in case either of those was a concern (Sea Titans and Gods are supernatural and don't seem to have any problems though... nor would I imagine a "Lord Magus" would)

They key phrase in paragraph 2 I want to focus on is this:
    even its DNA and apparent natural abilities are the same as the race whose appearance it has assumed

You can't spell apparent without "parent"!

Pg 28 lists things they can't copy and they only appear to be mental stuff like skills/memory/habit/personality.

The right column here is also critical:
    they are whatever race they are impersonating

Why would duplication of the genetic structure exclude germ cells? Lack of fertility would be something to point out if it were a hole in their disguise, like the rare enzymes.

What if they have to mutually shed disguises and foreign DNA, reverting to their true forms, to reproduce as auto-Gs rather than their adopted DNA?

Perhaps they could even be useful in bringing back endangered species from the brink of extinction?

29's right column "Life span" describes females having ability to bear children until 72 years and having 9 month pregnancies... but since they can impersonate "specific individuals" a female might take on the form of a male, and if they stayed in that form for 10 months that's bound to cause some complications!

"Natural Abilities" below this reiterates:
    has all the natural abilities of that race, other than spellcasting and specific learned skills and memories


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:30 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
Or sets a precedent? If auto-Gs are human variants the standard allowance of human interbreeding is there anyway.


No, there's still nothing saying they can cross breed, and nothing confirming they ARE a human varient, only a rumor, so there is nothing to base a new precident on.

Quote:
Auto-Gs have a "base species" of auto-G but also an adopted species including that DNA: perhaps they are like chimeras when impersonating different species?

*rechecks* WB30p27 describes them as a "feared D-Bee" but we should keep in mind that Atlanteans as well as humans from the 3 galaxies, HU, Palladium Fantasy, etc. are all d-bees in respect to Rifts Earth too...

Quote:
they call themselves Earthlings and claim their natural appearance is "human"


"without actually being a supernatural being or true creature of magic" in case either of those was a concern (Sea Titans and Gods are supernatural and don't seem to have any problems though... nor would I imagine a "Lord Magus" would)

They key phrase in paragraph 2 I want to focus on is this:
    even its DNA and apparent natural abilities are the same as the race whose appearance it has assumed

You can't spell apparent without "parent"!

Pg 28 lists things they can't copy and they only appear to be mental stuff like skills/memory/habit/personality.

The right column here is also critical:
    they are whatever race they are impersonating

Why would duplication of the genetic structure exclude germ cells? Lack of fertility would be something to point out if it were a hole in their disguise, like the rare enzymes.

What if they have to mutually shed disguises and foreign DNA, reverting to their true forms, to reproduce as auto-Gs rather than their adopted DNA?

Perhaps they could even be useful in bringing back endangered species from the brink of extinction?

29's right column "Life span" describes females having ability to bear children until 72 years and having 9 month pregnancies... but since they can impersonate "specific individuals" a female might take on the form of a male, and if they stayed in that form for 10 months that's bound to cause some complications!

"Natural Abilities" below this reiterates:
    has all the natural abilities of that race, other than spellcasting and specific learned skills and memories


And as none of those points actually say they can breed with other species they still cannot until something is stated to that effect.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:44 pm
  

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Knight

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They gain the natural abilities of the race: how is the ability to create children with other members of your race not a natural ability?


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:55 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
They gain the natural abilities of the race: how is the ability to create children with other members of your race not a natural ability?


Because the books say Crossbreeding is impossible unless the entry specifically says it is possible. The books did address Auto-G reproduction and didn't mention anything about breeding with other races. Sinse the hard rule is to always assume crossbreeding is impossible unless it says it IS possible. If it doesn't say specifically that they can breed with other races in so many words, the default is and always will be that it cannot.

You can of course, houserule in your own games however you wish. I know many GM's do.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:13 am
  

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Knight

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Where in CBrevised41 "note on biology" does it say what you're referring to?

Quote:
Variations within the same species can successfully breed
..
this means that an intelligent, alien canine, such as a Wolfen and a mutant Dog Boy, might successfully mate and
bear offspring, especially if that mutant canine was a wolf, him­self.

However, a mutant bear and mutant dog cannot.


If a GM considers an ambiguous race (hinted at as perhaps being human, but perhaps not) as a variation on the human species, that means they're a candidate unless specifically opted out.

In the case of the auto-G, you can argue they become a variation within whatever species they take on the DNA of.

Nekira wrote:
the hard rule is to always assume crossbreeding is impossible unless it says it IS possible.

Where's this hard rule?

The only hard rule would be if you are explicitly a different species. In that case only "powerful, magical intervention" makes it possible.

This has to be specifically said, as we know merely being different RCCs or different stats isn't enough to clarify that. Wolfen can produce healthy offspring with Coyles or Kankoran after all.

That parenthesis is next to the note on gods/humans, making me wonder if perhaps the creation of members of the Demigod RCC isn't necessarily a casual act, unless gods (or at least some of them) have some kind of always-on powerful magic virility at play which other supernatural beings don't.


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:11 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Sure, as I said, the GM could houserule that way, the GM can by default houserule whatever they want.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:54 am
  

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Knight

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I'm not talking about house rules, I'm talking about under the RAW, how broad should we consider an expression like 'natural abilities'?

Let's say for example, that an auto-G takes the form of a d-bee with 4 stomachs who is able to metabolize hay and stuff like a cow. Could they do that?

What about a d-bee who breathes methane instead of oxygen?

Or... what about something like an Altara Warrior Woman who doesn't even need a partner at all to reproduce?


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:13 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
So the default answer is however far you choose to read "natural abilities" it still doesn't extend to breeding unless text affirmatively specifies it does in text. Mere silence on the issue still defaults to "nope".

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:24 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Unless it says they can breed with other species they still can't. So the default answer is however far you choose to read "natural abilities" it still doesn't extend to breeding unless text affirmatively specifies it does in text. Mere silence on the issue still defaults to "nope".

In support of this I would like to point out that when natural abilities DO allow it, we are affirmatively told (shifter mice).
This demonstrates that they are aware of the fact that simply saying that 'copies natural abilities' is insufficient. Especially since Palladium doesn't consider reproduction a 'natural ability' it considers things that are in the natural abilities block on the write up to be natural abilities... of which 'reproduce with other members of its species' is sorely lacking
Redefining a word to have a meaning different than that used in the game does not demonstrate anything other than you can make a strawman out of a semantic argument if you move the goal posts far enough... aka less than nothing.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:16 pm
  

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Knight

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
So the default answer is however far you choose to read "natural abilities" it still doesn't extend to breeding unless text affirmatively specifies it does in text. Mere silence on the issue still defaults to "nope".

If taking the approach of "if it's not under the 'natural abilities section, you don't get it", couldn't that cause some problems with basic properties of species which are included in introductions but their repetition is overlooked under natural abilities?

I think the question remains: what would you classify various aspects of a race if not a 'natural ability'?

eliakon wrote:
I would like to point out that when natural abilities DO allow it, we are affirmatively told (shifter mice).

*finds in ATB2p131-132*

Auto-G's lack anything resembling "The offspring, however, whether the Shifter Mouse is the mother or the father, are always born as Shifter Mice!" which is why I think perhaps they would both need to be in their native auto-G forms to produce auto-Gs, and in foreign forms follow whatever reproductive rules would apply for that species, so creating non-auto-G offspring.

eliakon wrote:
This demonstrates that they are aware of the fact that simply saying that 'copies natural abilities' is insufficient.

I see mention of their fertility as necessary since it's an exception to the copying of natural abilities: because they would be fertile even if emulating a non-fertile species, produce 1D6 young even if changed into a species that only produces 1 young at a time (or 20 young at a time) and would produce a Shifter Mouse baby regardless of what species they reproduced with.

eliakon wrote:
Palladium doesn't consider reproduction a 'natural ability'
it considers things that are in the natural abilities block on the write up to be natural abilities...
of which 'reproduce with other members of its species' is sorely lacking

I don't think that whatever happens to be mentioned in that section happens to be the end-all of anything that might be classified that way. Just like "skills" might not necessarily include EVERY skill someone has, "natural abiltiies" may only mention 2 of note where there are others that are omitted due to common sense / space requirements, or perhaps simply described elsewhere in the entry other than that particular note.

To use the Slurmph (WB30p192) as an example, "Fling Slime" and "Covering Objects in Slime" are listed under "Damage" rather than "Natural Abilities" which is limited to "Malleable Body". Would you take that to mean that someone able to copy them couldn't fling slime?

That's of course, if Auto-Gs could emulate them, since they probably strongly toe the line of the "strongly alien" restriction, even though I don't think they're plant/rock or pure energy like ecto-man. I would think that's why Amorph is off limits but if "intelligent blob" is the criteria that's prob grounds to exclude a Slurmph too.

Pg 27 actually says "DNA and apparent natural abilities" so the "and" means things outside of a "Natural Abilities" section are fine to include.

"race that has wings and files" is one of the examples of things Auto-Gs can emulate, and you don't always see that listed under natural abilities, sometimes it's just noted under speed, but I don't think that would prevent Auto-Gs from copying it.

It's interesting how they can explicitly become Lyn-Srial when CoM/SBs are off limits, that species is MDC with supernatural PS/PE and all of them know cloud magic, but I guess they are still just MDC d-bees?

eliakon wrote:
Redefining a word to have a meaning different than that used in the game does not demonstrate anything other than you can make a strawman out of a semantic argument if you move the goal posts far enough... aka less than nothing.

I'm not sure what "word" you are referring to here. If you're describing "natural abilities" that would be a phrase, and I am interpreting the adjective/phrase not "redefining", unless you can point out a definition of it somewhere which defines it as being the absolute sum of abilities and not just the ones considered most noteworthy.


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:58 pm
  

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Monk

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Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
So the default answer is however far you choose to read "natural abilities" it still doesn't extend to breeding unless text affirmatively specifies it does in text. Mere silence on the issue still defaults to "nope".

If taking the approach of "if it's not under the 'natural abilities section, you don't get it", couldn't that cause some problems with basic properties of species which are included in introductions but their repetition is overlooked under natural abilities?

I think the question remains: what would you classify various aspects of a race if not a 'natural ability'?


I don't really think the answer to that question is relevent for the reason I just stated: whatever you decide does fall under "natural abilities" it still doesn't extend to breeding unless text affirmatively specifies it does in text. Mere silence on the issue still defaults to "nope". And that will be true no matter what we decide does or does not fall under natural abilities.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: auto-G reproduction
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:04 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
it still doesn't extend to breeding unless text affirmatively specifies it does in text.
Mere silence on the issue still defaults to "nope".

What is your basis for assuming a negative instead of a neutral?


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