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 Post subject: How to Portray Lazlo?
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:28 am
  

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Mack wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Actually....I suddenly wonder if this isn't why Kevin keeps putting off writing anything about Lazlo forever. If that's the case he kind of wrote himself into a Corner. Erin Tarin from the first day has done nothing but Praise Lazlo as a bastion of tolerance, respect, learning and peaceful commerse with never a bad thing to say. So subconiously he CAN'T write Lazlo into Rifts because if he did he'd have to shatter the dream. The Lazlo book cannot exist beucase Lazlo cannot exist, he cant' write Utopias, so he'd have to shatter the dream that Lazlo IS all it's said to be. Because then Erin Tarn would be wrong or a fool and he can't have that!


One of the freelance writers (I forget which) said something similar. To create drama, tension, etc, you need to have something dark to contrast the light against. He said he didn't know how to write a Lazlo book without including some sort of dark underside. Otherwise he felt it would be a pretty boring book.


I'm moving this into its own thread to keep from derailing the England campaign discussion, because I think it's worth exploring how to write up Lazlo in a compelling way that's consistent with Rifts. Lazlo is described in fawning terms by Erin Tarn in most of the books, in spite of the fact that, in Kevin's own words, "There are no utopias in Rifts."

In truth, the cracks in the facade of perfection are already beginning to show. In Aftermath, Lazlo is described as being inundated with refugees, rife with unemployment, and plagued by crime. I'd play this angle up.

When I was a kid, I once read in Mad Magazine: "How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?" This would be the spiritual core of how I'd write Lazlo. By taking in so many, so fast, it's a would-be melting pot utopia that's quickly degenerating in prosperity, security, and identity. It's got shiny and clean parts surrounded by slums and refugee camps that are messy, dirty, and often dangerous. I'd describe Lazlo as a city undergoing rapid cultural, social, and demographic change with three main groups and philosophies vying for control.

First, there's the pre-Tolkeen crowd in power that's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks.

Second, there's the refugee population. Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, they aren't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away. Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen. Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view.

Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away. For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning.

Anyway, if I were to write up Lazlo, that's how I would do it. What do you think? How would you write up Lazlo?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:16 pm
  

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I was going to object to Plato becoming a reactionary, but then I stopped and Realized it made sense. The books make it clear that even the most noble and generous dragon is jealous and greedy to an extreme extent compared to humans. So while it may have been easy for Plato to be generous when Lazlo was one of the wealthiest cities in North America and he wasn't losing anything personally, if it gets to the point he starts having to risk his private hoard, he might change his tune in a hurry. Good dragons are generous to the extent it doesn't personally cost them anything, generally speaking, and parting with even minor trinkets is something done only in exceptional circumstances.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:00 pm
  

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Lazlo is a city where "all creatures are welcome" and where "all philosophies are discussed."

Considering the sheer number of creatures where the entire species has an Evil alignment, this is a potential for trouble.
And there are classes of magic (and other powers) that are Evil by nature (IIRC)

Lazlo would be in the position of welcoming Evil creatures, and philosophies of Evil, while trying to stay good.

How exactly would that work?

Not well, as far as I can imagine.

One option is that they welcome everybody in, and they keep order by being a complete police state where everybody is watched constantly.

Another option is that they accept a certain amount of crime--even murders--as the price of being a free society, and they try to direct the chaos as best as they can.

I don't see either option working all that wonderfully, and either way I think the system would start to buckle under the influx of refugees, many of whom have such a grudge against the CS that they'd be willing to sell their souls one way or another for the power to get even.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:16 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Lazlo is a city where "all creatures are welcome" and where "all philosophies are discussed."

Considering the sheer number of creatures where the entire species has an Evil alignment, this is a potential for trouble.
And there are classes of magic (and other powers) that are Evil by nature (IIRC)

Lazlo would be in the position of welcoming Evil creatures, and philosophies of Evil, while trying to stay good.

How exactly would that work?

Not well, as far as I can imagine.

One option is that they welcome everybody in, and they keep order by being a complete police state where everybody is watched constantly.

Another option is that they accept a certain amount of crime--even murders--as the price of being a free society, and they try to direct the chaos as best as they can.

I don't see either option working all that wonderfully, and either way I think the system would start to buckle under the influx of refugees, many of whom have such a grudge against the CS that they'd be willing to sell their souls one way or another for the power to get even.

Yea, I had a similar thought about how they would deal with Necromancers. Such as allowing them in the city, but only if they don't practice necromancy during their stay. Had an NPC in mind who'd be a high-level "retired" Necromancer who taught magic at one of the schools, with a philosophy that "if one is to understand life, one must understand death."

Then there's characters like the Demon-Dragonmage, who may be young and idealistic now but are certain to grow into a threat later.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:29 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
In one of my games the vampire hunter group hired and trained necromancers.
Every team had its own necromancer in fact.
This gave them access to valuable spells like
Object Read the Dead (useful to identify who killed a corpse)
Recognize the Undead
Eyes of the Dead (which makes you immune to vampire mind control)
Death Mask (provides protection to a host of problems and prowl 55%)
Heal living Bone (one of the rare healing spells in the game)
Chicken Bone (we often would 'luck up' the assault team by 'lucking down' the rear detail
Summon the Dead (making casualty recovery a snap)
Divining Graves and Tombs (to locate coffins)
Summon Vampire and Control Vampire (useful to get intelligence on your target)
Bone of Invisibility (unit level invisibility at will...)
Bone Staff (keeps undead at bay like a holy symbol)
Necklace of bat skulls (incredible night vision)
Necklace of Bird skulls (see in the ultraviolet)
And more.

They didn't go around doing evil for the lulz, they were dedicated White Necromancers who were interested in the yang part of magic and teamed up with our life mages to help make sure that the dead stayed properly dead

You don't have to be a cartoon villain.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:44 am
  

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After what happened to Tolkeen I can see Plato alignment changing to Scrupulous or at least something Practical Principled. He still remains of a good alignment though the changes brought about by the what has happened post Tolkien would require a more practical approach. Especially with Erin Tarn by his side.Gone are the days where they can simply hide behind their good intentions. Given what happened to Tolkein and the CS general stance and riding the win over Tolkien they would adapt and use the less evil spells as well as knowledge and tactics learnt or found from the survivors of Tolkien. I'm sure Lazlo had at least observers hidden and learnt how to deal with technology.

IF we ever see a CS vs Lazlo some years down the line their is no good reason for the CS beyond numbers to beat Lazlo easily none. I do think the open door policy of allowing everyone into Lazlo be a mistake imo. Just because the Scorpion says it won't sting you now does not mean it will sting later. I think that policy would be changed to make sure to not have too evil characters come into Tolkien.

Portray them as not being evil yet also not completely good to a stupid degree. As they can no longer be the gaming equivalent of Lawful Stupid given the changing nature of the political and power landscape of North America.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:22 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Sureshot wrote:
After what happened to Tolkeen I can see Plato alignment changing to Scrupulous or at least something Practical Principled. He still remains of a good alignment though the changes brought about by the what has happened post Tolkien would require a more practical approach. Especially with Erin Tarn by his side.Gone are the days where they can simply hide behind their good intentions. Given what happened to Tolkein and the CS general stance and riding the win over Tolkien they would adapt and use the less evil spells as well as knowledge and tactics learnt or found from the survivors of Tolkien. I'm sure Lazlo had at least observers hidden and learnt how to deal with technology.

IF we ever see a CS vs Lazlo some years down the line their is no good reason for the CS beyond numbers to beat Lazlo easily none. I do think the open door policy of allowing everyone into Lazlo be a mistake imo. Just because the Scorpion says it won't sting you now does not mean it will sting later. I think that policy would be changed to make sure to not have too evil characters come into Tolkien.

Portray them as not being evil yet also not completely good to a stupid degree. As they can no longer be the gaming equivalent of Lawful Stupid given the changing nature of the political and power landscape of North America.

Heck they have dimensional magic.
They could easily choose a third option!
They could take in all refugees...but not allow them to settle in Lazlo proper. Those who are not 'appropriate material' (but are not outright evil of the sort they actively oppose) could be given transit through to another world.
As for the rest... well we already know that Lazlo actively fights evil. That sort of means that they...fight evil.
If you are fighting evil you don't have to welcome that same evil to your breast.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:21 pm
  

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Saying lazlo would have to accept evil people and evil philosophies is as stupid as saying to be truly tolerant you have to accept Nazis. No they don't. It would likely be no different than how many present nations handle refugees now. Proper vetting of them as best they can to sort out that evil.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:33 pm
  

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Also they have the magic ability to in short order at least house these people and put use the resources of that magic to help feed them if necessary by and large. It wouldn't be easy just due to the overall large influx but given time to adjust and figure things out it won't be as bad as people seem to think it will be. Canada is "open to all people's" yet we face similar issues as Lazlo does in regards to housing, feeding, and vetting. They would go about it as best they could like most western nations have attempted to, not get all Trumpian.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:51 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Saying lazlo would have to accept evil people and evil philosophies is as stupid as saying to be truly tolerant you have to accept Nazis. No they don't. It would likely be no different than how many present nations handle refugees now. Proper vetting of them as best they can to sort out that evil.


Just as many Nazis went undetected for decades after World War 2 after fleeing justice in other countries, so it would be very difficult to vet everyone coming in, especially in a mass migration refugee crisis. Lazlo lacks the kind of dedicated detection abilities the C.S. has in their Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers (and those methods would largely be useless, since magic is everywhere in Lazlo), so they'd be restricted to vague methods like see aura and such that are limited by PPE and ISP availability, are short range, and are often suitable for individual interviews only. Person-by-person interviews would require enormous infrastructure and strict management of everyone coming in, and the collapse of Tolkeen was sudden and absolute, resulting in a tsunami of refugees on top of the increased flow due to increased Coalition aggression on all fronts.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:23 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Also they have the magic ability to in short order at least house these people and put use the resources of that magic to help feed them if necessary by and large. It wouldn't be easy just due to the overall large influx but given time to adjust and figure things out it won't be as bad as people seem to think it will be. Canada is "open to all people's" yet we face similar issues as Lazlo does in regards to housing, feeding, and vetting. They would go about it as best they could like most western nations have attempted to, not get all Trumpian.


It's true that a large modern country would have no issue absorbing a few hundred thousand refugees. Lazlo is not a modern country; it's a city-state. The refugees now comprise a large portion of its population, and no western country has seen demographics change so drastically or suddenly since World War II.

I agree that Lazlo's intentions would be similar to what we see in most western countries today. However, the refugee population itself would be markedly different. Just as with modern refugees, you'd have some ne'er-do-wells mixed in, except that many of these ne'er-do'wells be war criminals from the Sorcerer's Revenge, members of evil and predatory groups/species, thugs, and worse. Many of these problem refugees will themselves be packing serious firepower, present a significant threat to their fellow refugees, and may become a threat to Lazlo's citizens. Shoot, even normally decent people will result to all kinds of terrible acts to ensure their survival or the survival of their loved ones.

Even with literal magic wands to wave, these aren't problems with trivial solutions. Even if Lazlo can provide enough food and shelter that they don't die of exposure or starvation, they'll need to find some kind of employment, or else continue on Lazlo's hand-outs. When people get displaced, their support systems and job-finding networks go away, and it takes a long time to establish effective new ones.

Moreover, Even if Lazlo can handle producing food and shelter, distributing it is going to be difficult, and corruption and waste will worm its way into these communities. You'll see petty criminals shaking down the weak, organized criminals running protection rackets, con men and opportunists fleecing people, and officials getting bribed to steer resources and contracts to crooked businessmen. Even those refugees who do find decent, honest work will be building from nothing and won't be able to afford the kind of lifestyle that most citizens of Lazlo take for granted, and the competition for jobs will be so intense that they'll accept very low wages and poor working conditions.

In short, to someone born and raised in Lazlo (even the most-welcoming), most refugees will appear to be poor, dirty, desperate, and potentially very dangerous. Frustration will build over time as the camps and slums don't improve quickly. Many refugees will want to leave but have nowhere else to go. Indeed, who else would take them?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:21 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Why are people here assuming that Lazlo is run by idiots?
No really why?
Lets see...
Re: vetting
It isn't really that hard. No really it isn't.
"Okay, you will need to submit to questioning by the immigration officer. He will cast a spell on you that you will be required to allow to take effect. He will then ask the following ten questions..."
Done. One simple spell, the entire process takes a couple minutes per person. How hard was that?
Next problem?

Re: population problem
Lazlo has canonical allies in other dimensions. It has Adult and Ancient Dragons. It has connections to deities and Atlantian Clans. It doesn't have to twirl its idiot ball and wonder what it is going to do with all these people.
It Has Options.
Yeah, the people in Tolkeen may not have wanted to evacuate off Earth before... but if your a refugee that sometimes isn't your decision. You can choose to go where they can take you, or you can go somewhere else.
There is nothing in the universe that says Lazlo has to just sit here and commit suicide by trying to absorb more refugees than it can accept.
It can move people to a pocket dimension, or an Atlantian world, or the 3Gs, or any number of other places. No sweat.
Anyone arguing that it is just going to stand around and do nothing while it gets refugee'ed to death is simply playing to the Lawful Stupid/Good is Dumb tropes and if that is how you are going to run things then there isn't a point to discussing things because all of good will be caricatures anyway.

Lazlo is a city state run by Dragons and Gods and Archmages. It has entire universities full of really smart people. Figuring out how to solve basic routine problems shouldn't be civilization ending catastrophes. They should be...basic routine problems.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:26 pm
  

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Considering just as many if not more came to Lazlo in previous years/decades, just as these refugees are now, I find it highly unlikely and VERY overstated that the population will have those feelings in a large enough quantity as to cause the issues you prescribe. This isn't present day New York suddenly getting inundated with 500k refugees from Syria where the masses live a pretty comfortable life and the refugees arriving have nothing. This is Lazlo that has been taking in refugees for literal decades and the vast majority of the present population hasn't been there long enough to forget what being like these refugees is like.

Even the discussion above about Plato is nonsensical. We know how the alignments work and saying Plato would act out of alignment because he is a dragon is like saying Bill Gates, even though he has given VAST amounts of his fortune away for a variety of reasons, is still a greedy 1%er and just like Trump, Bezos, the Koch's and other 1%ers who are greedy even though reality tells us otherwise.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:47 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
jaymz wrote:
Considering just as many if not more came to Lazlo in previous years/decades, just as these refugees are now, I find it highly unlikely and VERY overstated that the population will have those feelings in a large enough quantity as to cause the issues you prescribe. This isn't present day New York suddenly getting inundated with 500k refugees from Syria where the masses live a pretty comfortable life and the refugees arriving have nothing. This is Lazlo that has been taking in refugees for literal decades and the vast majority of the present population hasn't been there long enough to forget what being like these refugees is like.

What? You think that a country that has been accepting tens of thousands of refugees for decades might have a system down by now?
Madness!
:lol:

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:53 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Considering just as many if not more came to Lazlo in previous years/decades, just as these refugees are now, I find it highly unlikely and VERY overstated that the population will have those feelings in a large enough quantity as to cause the issues you prescribe. This isn't present day New York suddenly getting inundated with 500k refugees from Syria where the masses live a pretty comfortable life and the refugees arriving have nothing. This is Lazlo that has been taking in refugees for literal decades and the vast majority of the present population hasn't been there long enough to forget what being like these refugees is like.

What? You think that a country that has been accepting tens of thousands of refugees for decades might have a system down by now?
Madness!
:lol:


IKR?!?!

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:02 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:09 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:42 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:36 pm
  

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I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:43 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.


Lazlo's population surged 40% during the siege according to Aftermath p54, and many of them came from Tolkeen. The same page also introduces the idea that Lazlo has something of an internal struggle against those who want to do harm to the C.S. and those who want to leave it be and focus on their own local problems. p55 describes increased lawlessness and violence within its borders.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:52 am
  

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possible flaws you could give Lazlo without giving them anything outright evil:

Technology prejudice - fixation on magic and psionics means they often look down on more technological solutions to things. might result in some of their infrastructure being more limited if you can't do it as easily with magic. (tongue in cheek example: "so let me get this straight.. we have technowizard teleporters for public transportation.. but half the city isn't wired for electricity?")

Social inequalities - we know they are ruled by a council, apparently of powerful mages and other 'learned people. this suggests they follow Noocracy, "rule of the wise" with decision making in the hands of philosophers, scientists, and others such people. there would be a lot of major drawbacks to this.. not only are "Philosopher kings" going to be just as prone to irrational behavior and corruption as normal politicians, but the fact is that in many cases the issues they are dealing with are going to be outside the purview of their fields of expertise.. an expert on dimensional meta-physics probably isn't going to be all that useful in deciding how to handle a public health crisis for example. plus, if their political power is tied to their knowledge it is likely that you would see social stratification occurring between those people recognized as being knowledgeable enough to be on the council or hold public office, and those that aren't. especially since you would have to figure out a way to determine whether a person is 'knowledgeable enough to hold office, which is certainly going to be set by the council itself. making it likely that the selection criteria is going to be limited in some fashion based on what the creators of those regulations consider legitimate knowledge and proper skill levels. if the process is based off the ruling of the current office holders, that process is going to be biased by their own opinions, friendships, and personal politics. if the process is based off some form of test, that means that not only will the test be biased by the opinions of the test creators, but you will inevitably get to a situation where the applicants only bother to learn how to beat the test, without learning much beyond it. (much as is happening with public school standardized testing IRL. to understand why that is a bad idea when combined with politics you just have to look at the Chinese Imperial Examinations. it got rid of favoritism.. but created a ton of cookie cutter scholars that didn't have much flexibility)
and here is where we get to the stratification issue.. because knowledge = political power, anyone that doesn't meet the standards is going to struggle a lot more, even if they have the ideas the society needs to deal with the problems it is facing. and while the society can have a dedication to knowledge in general, the fact is that access to resources to actually learn is going to be much more limited.. you can only have so many libraries, so many museums, so many universities, etc. especially if the universities have any sort of admissions standards or major financial requirements. since political power usually brings with it access to better resources (wealth, special treatment, etc) it means that people who have connections to ta member of the council or a public office holder are going to be able to get hold of better education and more learning resources than those that aren't connected. which will quickly create a "privileged class' and an 'unprivileged class' within the city-state, with political officers often going to the friends, offspring, and so on of those already in office, while those that didn't have those kinds of connections will be stuck without much chance to effect the government.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:42 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
possible flaws you could give Lazlo without giving them anything outright evil:

Technology prejudice - fixation on magic and psionics means they often look down on more technological solutions to things. might result in some of their infrastructure being more limited if you can't do it as easily with magic. (tongue in cheek example: "so let me get this straight.. we have technowizard teleporters for public transportation.. but half the city isn't wired for electricity?")

Social inequalities - we know they are ruled by a council, apparently of powerful mages and other 'learned people. this suggests they follow Noocracy, "rule of the wise" with decision making in the hands of philosophers, scientists, and others such people. there would be a lot of major drawbacks to this.. not only are "Philosopher kings" going to be just as prone to irrational behavior and corruption as normal politicians, but the fact is that in many cases the issues they are dealing with are going to be outside the purview of their fields of expertise.. an expert on dimensional meta-physics probably isn't going to be all that useful in deciding how to handle a public health crisis for example. plus, if their political power is tied to their knowledge it is likely that you would see social stratification occurring between those people recognized as being knowledgeable enough to be on the council or hold public office, and those that aren't. especially since you would have to figure out a way to determine whether a person is 'knowledgeable enough to hold office, which is certainly going to be set by the council itself. making it likely that the selection criteria is going to be limited in some fashion based on what the creators of those regulations consider legitimate knowledge and proper skill levels. if the process is based off the ruling of the current office holders, that process is going to be biased by their own opinions, friendships, and personal politics. if the process is based off some form of test, that means that not only will the test be biased by the opinions of the test creators, but you will inevitably get to a situation where the applicants only bother to learn how to beat the test, without learning much beyond it. (much as is happening with public school standardized testing IRL. to understand why that is a bad idea when combined with politics you just have to look at the Chinese Imperial Examinations. it got rid of favoritism.. but created a ton of cookie cutter scholars that didn't have much flexibility)
and here is where we get to the stratification issue.. because knowledge = political power, anyone that doesn't meet the standards is going to struggle a lot more, even if they have the ideas the society needs to deal with the problems it is facing. and while the society can have a dedication to knowledge in general, the fact is that access to resources to actually learn is going to be much more limited.. you can only have so many libraries, so many museums, so many universities, etc. especially if the universities have any sort of admissions standards or major financial requirements. since political power usually brings with it access to better resources (wealth, special treatment, etc) it means that people who have connections to ta member of the council or a public office holder are going to be able to get hold of better education and more learning resources than those that aren't connected. which will quickly create a "privileged class' and an 'unprivileged class' within the city-state, with political officers often going to the friends, offspring, and so on of those already in office, while those that didn't have those kinds of connections will be stuck without much chance to effect the government.


Once you put academics and other intellectuals in charge they eventually loose sight of the needs of the common man. I have relatives in academia and their bosses (presidents, deans, etc) are almost always out of touch, being either out for themselves, stuck in meaningless work (publish or die), and making irrational demands. Also, like glitterboy 2098 mentioned, nepotism and favoritism is rampant. So how does Plato relate to the guy who works in waste disposal? He doesn't, and he probably feels like he doesn't need to. The council probably all feel this way: we know what's best and the rest of the community will eventually figure that out, even if they suffer in the now. Add to that a huge influx of refugees who probably don't have the same mindset as the academics and you probably have the makings of a riot and an attempted coup in a few years or decades, and the leaders probably won't see it coming until it's too late.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:30 pm
  

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and Erin Tarn, being of that 'elite', wouldn't necessarily see the flaws in her own system. Common people in Lazlo would still be better off than people in the Chi-town Burbs or the wilderness, in terms of general living standards. but they'd not be much better off in terms of economic and political opportunities, for all that Lazlo professes to be more enlightened than the regimes it criticizes.

and i wouldn't say riot and attempted coup".. that sort of extreme action would take a lot more than just a few years to foment. as real world history has shown time and time again. but you definitely would have an undercurrent of social unrest with protests, counterprotests, social movements, political movements, etc. lazlo would pretty much always have such things even without refugees from Tolkeen and the like.
and it wouldn't always be things that would fix the system either. refugees from Tolkeen, which had its own council system, probably wouldn't see a flaw in the general concept, they'd just think that membership should include a more autocratic component and less pure 'philosopher' aspect. which applied to lazlo would actually make things worse by making positions hereditary and removing a lot of checks and balances involved in lazlo's system. refugees from the magic zone and wilderness areas would probably be pushing for a more warlike stance with emphasis on dealing with the coalition, rather than Lazlo's focus on the Xiticix (after all, the xiticix are not neighbors the way the CS is, and the less informed populace would certainly not view them with as much fear as they have of the CS). some of the Tolkeenite refugees probably would actually back such movements, with the idea that step one would be to recapture and rebuild Tolkeen..

home grown grassroots politics would probably heavily be around changing the criteria of the knowledge testing for public office (as a lot of people in lazlo are not going to think the system itself is flawed, just its execution at tat time), others are going to just be movements to bring about various social and economic changes that are unrelated to the political system but which the political leaders will have the most power to implement (changes in trade, changes in immigration, changes in worker conditions, etc)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:45 pm
  

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Quote:
and i wouldn't say riot and attempted coup".. that sort of extreme action would take a lot more than just a few years to foment. as real world history has shown time and time again. but you definitely would have an undercurrent of social unrest with protests, counterprotests, social movements, political movements, etc. lazlo would pretty much always have such things even without refugees from Tolkeen and the like.


I agree that a coup probably wouldn't happen on its own in a few short years, but there's the possibility of Coalition and Vanguard instigators who would love to see Lazlo implode helping it along. Kind of like the professional rioters we see worldwide at otherwise peaceful protests, they'd rile up crowds, recruit the disaffected, and destroy property. Peaceful protests can be reasoned with, but riots can't, and it doesn't take much to start one. I don't think intellectualism handles sudden change very well, and that will help foment further unrest when the government can't react fast enough to enact change in an efficient manner.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:10 am
  

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Well, Lazlo becoming a more attractive place for refugees could relate to their perceived success in leading the campaign to exterminate or at least contain the Xiticix, i guess. Now there are less bugs in the way and people have more reason to see it as a local power, instead of just bunch of idealist philosophers hiding in the middle of nowhere.

Not quite related, all this talk over changes brought by metaplot/timeline progression got me thinking. Naruni Enterprises got its first leg on North America thanks to Robot Control and its part in general cleaning of the Mechanoid Crisis. But thanks to the treaties between NG, CS and a number of other regional power, Naruni Enterprises is mostly gone except for a few resentful operatives keeping shop among mercs & some enemies of the CS out of resentment, stuborness & a desire for payback/brewing trouble.

Feel free to correct me if you remember anything in the books that goes counter to this assessment of mine.

But with the Naruni (mostly gone), who might fill the gap if the Mechanoid infestation is not wholy eliminated? All it might take is for one of the smarter Mechanoids surviving and getting a place to repurpose to make drones or clone more of its kind for it all to start over.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:17 pm
  

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Sorta feels like people are looking to create flaws for lazlo when the simple fact that they can only do so much but are trying to cater to everyone is certainly a big enough flaw to make that nation's governing bodies miserable.

you want to have a government that gives everyone a voice? get ready to hear a lot of people using it to make petty insults.
make a law for allowing ethical necromancy? "they're all murderers and tomb robbers, we should throw them out!"
establish funding for D-Bee special needs? "This is our planet and if they don't like how it is they should go home!"
build a tower for those cloud magic guys to live in? "what about the needs of the rest of us? they shouldn't get their own tower!"
take in tolkeen refugees? "they're probably coalition spies we should keep them locked away until they can prove they're on our side!"
reject those refugees? "those are our brothers, you're as bad as the coalition!"
disperse rioting from any of the above? "you're silencing the will of the people!"

rather than being some shadowy malice, reading a bit of samuel clemens and making them guilty of bumbling from trying to handle too many irons in the fire at once is plenty to introduce problems with lazlo. not to mention double-agents from everywhere from the coalition to atlantas causing trouble, even making themselves inadvertent bedfellows.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:24 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Sorta feels like people are looking to create flaws for lazlo when the simple fact that they can only do so much but are trying to cater to everyone is certainly a big enough flaw to make that nation's governing bodies miserable.

you want to have a government that gives everyone a voice? get ready to hear a lot of people using it to make petty insults.
make a law for allowing ethical necromancy? "they're all murderers and tomb robbers, we should throw them out!"
establish funding for D-Bee special needs? "This is our planet and if they don't like how it is they should go home!"
build a tower for those cloud magic guys to live in? "what about the needs of the rest of us? they shouldn't get their own tower!"
take in tolkeen refugees? "they're probably coalition spies we should keep them locked away until they can prove they're on our side!"
reject those refugees? "those are our brothers, you're as bad as the coalition!"
disperse rioting from any of the above? "you're silencing the will of the people!"

rather than being some shadowy malice, reading a bit of samuel clemens and making them guilty of bumbling from trying to handle too many irons in the fire at once is plenty to introduce problems with lazlo. not to mention double-agents from everywhere from the coalition to atlantas causing trouble, even making themselves inadvertent bedfellows.


Yes, this can work fine enough - they are well-meaning, intelligenct and resourceful people. But still are people and must deal with all the hassle that can involve as opinions, agendas, interests and methods can differ and generate trouble. Management and governance are hells all their own and can engender varied levels of communication & logistics failure in a number of places.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:10 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Well, Lazlo becoming a more attractive place for refugees could relate to their perceived success in leading the campaign to exterminate or at least contain the Xiticix, i guess. Now there are less bugs in the way and people have more reason to see it as a local power, instead of just bunch of idealist philosophers hiding in the middle of nowhere.

Not quite related, all this talk over changes brought by metaplot/timeline progression got me thinking. Naruni Enterprises got its first leg on North America thanks to Robot Control and its part in general cleaning of the Mechanoid Crisis. But thanks to the treaties between NG, CS and a number of other regional power, Naruni Enterprises is mostly gone except for a few resentful operatives keeping shop among mercs & some enemies of the CS out of resentment, stuborness & a desire for payback/brewing trouble.

Feel free to correct me if you remember anything in the books that goes counter to this assessment of mine.

But with the Naruni (mostly gone), who might fill the gap if the Mechanoid infestation is not wholy eliminated? All it might take is for one of the smarter Mechanoids surviving and getting a place to repurpose to make drones or clone more of its kind for it all to start over.


I think the Naruni Wave 2 Dimension Book stated that they decided to let the Earth market go. There were some Naruni who wanted to slap the Coalition upside the head, but ultimately they were persuaded by some Prime Directive non-interference nonsense, and the whole matter was dropped.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:54 pm
  

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1970 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Well, Lazlo becoming a more attractive place for refugees could relate to their perceived success in leading the campaign to exterminate or at least contain the Xiticix, i guess. Now there are less bugs in the way and people have more reason to see it as a local power, instead of just bunch of idealist philosophers hiding in the middle of nowhere.

Not quite related, all this talk over changes brought by metaplot/timeline progression got me thinking. Naruni Enterprises got its first leg on North America thanks to Robot Control and its part in general cleaning of the Mechanoid Crisis. But thanks to the treaties between NG, CS and a number of other regional power, Naruni Enterprises is mostly gone except for a few resentful operatives keeping shop among mercs & some enemies of the CS out of resentment, stuborness & a desire for payback/brewing trouble.

Feel free to correct me if you remember anything in the books that goes counter to this assessment of mine.

But with the Naruni (mostly gone), who might fill the gap if the Mechanoid infestation is not wholy eliminated? All it might take is for one of the smarter Mechanoids surviving and getting a place to repurpose to make drones or clone more of its kind for it all to start over.


I think the Naruni Wave 2 Dimension Book stated that they decided to let the Earth market go. There were some Naruni who wanted to slap the Coalition upside the head, but ultimately they were persuaded by some Prime Directive non-interference nonsense, and the whole matter was dropped.


Nope, it was the ultimate no-nonsense Prime Directive: profit margins & department meetings. :twisted:

"This project recoup might still investment losses, sir."

"Can you give the regional board of expansion a proposal to explain the added costs and give a presentation with expected spendings for the target objective - that you haven't quite specified - and balance with gains for the next years and decades? Arrange these things and you can get my support to convince them, i could even suggest how you might get some individual member's support if you are confident and dedicated enough to your plan."

"......"

"Also, a subsection on how to conduct this acquisition operation without getting the attention Splugorth branch already on planet, what could increase risk margins at least tenfold, would be advisable, child. So, anything to add?"

"No, sorry for taking your time sir."

"You did not, young one, i appreciate the initiative. And it's just cantina talk anyway, so we are off the books. And that's how that one Earth stays."

"So, no plans, no balance, no projected profits margins, no payback."

"Exactly. Crime does not pay until it's fully commited and if you're not caught, so it's a high-risk, variable profit stake. Revenge, an even more questionable so. It does not, on itself, pay. And pay - and shares, or the occasional benefit - is what we are all for."

"And they get away scott-free."

"Thanks, it has been most enlightening."

"Learn to make the most of your work hours and you'll find your way, i believe in your spirit. Now excuse me, i can see there's a lady withh head-tentacles i should not keep waiting."

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:45 am
  

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Naruni Wave 2 makes it clear that while NE decided to at least wait before trying again because the sales opportunities on Earth aren't really worth the trouble, the faction behind the original sales is most definitely selling stuff on Earth again. A good chunk of the book is presented as part of a sales catalogue specifically written for Rifts Earth.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:48 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Naruni Wave 2 makes it clear that while NE decided to at least wait before trying again because the sales opportunities on Earth aren't really worth the trouble, the faction behind the original sales is most definitely selling stuff on Earth again. A good chunk of the book is presented as part of a sales catalogue specifically written for Rifts Earth.


Thought so, but it has been some time since i gave it a good, hard look. What is quite ironic, considering the fact last game i played my PC managed to became a low- to mid-tier shareholder in NE (through some patent & licensing deals), had ideas of his own about the treatment of Rifts Earth as an asset and decided to involve himself at least in part in the decision-making involved, what lead to ..... interesting developments.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:18 am
  

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Quote:
Lazlo's population surged 40% during the siege according to Aftermath p54,


I live in a town of about 200,000 people.
Even a few thousand refugees has caused labor and crime problems in the past.
People without opportunity drift into gangs or anything that seems to offer an alternative.
I can’t imagine 80,000 people showing up one day….
We can’t find jobs for the 1,500 laid off auto workers…


I think a coupe could easily happen quickly. Some screwup and people don’t eat for a few days. Riot..


I could easily see some people in Lazlo panicking and moving out..

Any solutions to their refugee crisis will have to be innovative and interesting.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:17 pm
  

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hbrika wrote:
Quote:
Lazlo's population surged 40% during the siege according to Aftermath p54,


I live in a town of about 200,000 people.
Even a few thousand refugees has caused labor and crime problems in the past.
People without opportunity drift into gangs or anything that seems to offer an alternative.
I can’t imagine 80,000 people showing up one day….
We can’t find jobs for the 1,500 laid off auto workers…


I think a coupe could easily happen quickly. Some screwup and people don’t eat for a few days. Riot..


I could easily see some people in Lazlo panicking and moving out..

Any solutions to their refugee crisis will have to be innovative and interesting.


Too true, scale is a key issue here. The refugee population could make a brand new allied city-state on its own, what's scary on itself no matter how well-meaning one might be. They need to redirect at least a few of those people into building new settlements of their own somewhere, anywhere, fast and they need that done for yesterday.


Damn, i remember a few years ago playing a warlord of the FoM that allied himself with Tolkeen (with papa Dunscon's approval - funny story for another time) and he was pretty much throwing fireworks when he managed to settle an arrangement with Freehold about helping them managing their refugee population. Because he pretty much started setting up a whole new city-state of his own in the Magic Zone by relocating their "leftovers".... papa Dunscon was very entertained by this unexpected turn of events. His old teachers at Dweomer, not even a little. :twisted:


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:26 pm
  

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hbrika wrote:
Quote:
Lazlo's population surged 40% during the siege according to Aftermath p54,


I live in a town of about 200,000 people.
Even a few thousand refugees has caused labor and crime problems in the past.
People without opportunity drift into gangs or anything that seems to offer an alternative.
I can’t imagine 80,000 people showing up one day….
We can’t find jobs for the 1,500 laid off auto workers…


I think a coupe could easily happen quickly. Some screwup and people don’t eat for a few days. Riot..


I could easily see some people in Lazlo panicking and moving out..

Any solutions to their refugee crisis will have to be innovative and interesting.


lazlo's magic insulates them a fair bit from this sort of thing, but i can see rioting over any number of things with that man war refugees. i can't see a coupe though, too much of the city likes their leaders and they're not a bunch of harmless political players. a failed coupe on the other hand could drive a fairly deep stake between political groups that lazlo's leaders would have to slow down everything else to mend as best they can....

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:37 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
hbrika wrote:
Quote:
Lazlo's population surged 40% during the siege according to Aftermath p54,


I live in a town of about 200,000 people.
Even a few thousand refugees has caused labor and crime problems in the past.
People without opportunity drift into gangs or anything that seems to offer an alternative.
I can’t imagine 80,000 people showing up one day….
We can’t find jobs for the 1,500 laid off auto workers…


I think a coupe could easily happen quickly. Some screwup and people don’t eat for a few days. Riot..


I could easily see some people in Lazlo panicking and moving out..

Any solutions to their refugee crisis will have to be innovative and interesting.


lazlo's magic insulates them a fair bit from this sort of thing, but i can see rioting over any number of things with that man war refugees. i can't see a coupe though, too much of the city likes their leaders and they're not a bunch of harmless political players. a failed coupe on the other hand could drive a fairly deep stake between political groups that lazlo's leaders would have to slow down everything else to mend as best they can....


Remember a lot of those people are refugees from Tolkeen, Freehold and other magical, psionic & D-bee communities from Minnesota, possibly having a few leaders with quite respectable powers of their own. Most will probably try to help first, but people not always see eye to eye, specially those who are in bad straits or at least responsible for people who are. Add to that the potential of callous oportunists or outright sabotage - and well, who knows. That's were drama, tension, conflict - and adventures for PC groups - come from. :wink:


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:11 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Why are people here assuming that Lazlo is run by idiots?
No really why?
Lets see...
Re: vetting
It isn't really that hard. No really it isn't.
"Okay, you will need to submit to questioning by the immigration officer. He will cast a spell on you that you will be required to allow to take effect. He will then ask the following ten questions..."
Done. One simple spell, the entire process takes a couple minutes per person. How hard was that?
Next problem?

Re: population problem
Lazlo has canonical allies in other dimensions. It has Adult and Ancient Dragons. It has connections to deities and Atlantian Clans. It doesn't have to twirl its idiot ball and wonder what it is going to do with all these people.
It Has Options.
Yeah, the people in Tolkeen may not have wanted to evacuate off Earth before... but if your a refugee that sometimes isn't your decision. You can choose to go where they can take you, or you can go somewhere else.
There is nothing in the universe that says Lazlo has to just sit here and commit suicide by trying to absorb more refugees than it can accept.
It can move people to a pocket dimension, or an Atlantian world, or the 3Gs, or any number of other places. No sweat.
Anyone arguing that it is just going to stand around and do nothing while it gets refugee'ed to death is simply playing to the Lawful Stupid/Good is Dumb tropes and if that is how you are going to run things then there isn't a point to discussing things because all of good will be caricatures anyway.

Lazlo is a city state run by Dragons and Gods and Archmages. It has entire universities full of really smart people. Figuring out how to solve basic routine problems shouldn't be civilization ending catastrophes. They should be...basic routine problems.


This is an eminently reasonable approach that would fall under how I'd have Plato and the "reactionary" faction wanting to run things. Magic interrogation "vetting," forcing refugees to relocate to somewhere else/another dimension, and allowing only a certain quota of acceptable people to stay in Lazlo.

That said, canon doesn't reflect the city taking this approach. Aftermath describes Lazlo as struggling with refugees who now make up almost a third of its population, as well as the problems of poverty and crime that come with them. As much as I'd like to think otherwise, smart and educated people aren't always able to solve problems like what to do with massive refugee migrations, and they often disagree about the best approaches to take. Sometimes smart people suck at solving basic, routine problems. Plenty of problems are basic and simple, yet difficult to deal with.

Thus, in my version, the dominant political group (the Tarn faction) cries foul at your proposals of forced magic interrogations, forced deportations to other places/dimensions, and elitist ("and possibly racist," they add) criteria for deciding who stays and who goes. They hold to the high ideals that Tarn herself embodies and sees in Lazlo.

Meanwhile, her writings lead more and more desperate refugees to seek shelter in this utopia they've heard about in her writings for years, and caravans of refugees continue to pour in every year. But the growing population of refugees has become disillusioned as the reality of Lazlo fails to live up to its utopian reputation. Working crappy jobs, using hand-outs to make ends meet, and living in slums within sight of the wealth and power of Lazlo's elite chafes at these immigrants, who are beginning to flex their own political power.

One important note that I'd make in this is that I wouldn't give any of these factions the moral upper hand. All three would have good intentions and understandable motivations. They just have different approaches and priorities, and these generally good people aren't getting along anymore.

Thus, democracy is messy in Lazlo. My version of Lazlo is not on the verge of its civilization ending but in a state of rapid, difficult, and profound change with plenty of internal problems and strife. There are plenty of opportunities for characters to participate in events and crises that could decide if Lazlo's ideals carry it through these challenges or drive it off the cliff.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:27 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Thus, democracy is messy in Lazlo.


democracy is messy no matter where it is, that's part of the way it works. i'd expect lazlo to end up founding a few new towns nearbyish to settle all these people in to solve the problem, although then you have the issue of what to do with a "new tolkeen" that is both part of lazlo and bickering with lazlo to strike at the coalition- which they have a whole forest of reasons to not do.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:45 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Thus, democracy is messy in Lazlo.


democracy is messy no matter where it is, that's part of the way it works. i'd expect lazlo to end up founding a few new towns nearbyish to settle all these people in to solve the problem, although then you have the issue of what to do with a "new tolkeen" that is both part of lazlo and bickering with lazlo to strike at the coalition- which they have a whole forest of reasons to not do.


I suspect the "strike back" party might not be that big of a problem, at least at present, considering how striking in the first place went for Tolkeen and the fact a good chunk of the more revenge-prone or murderous of the survivors are either following Scard in his scattershot guerilla campaign against the CS from woods to 'burbs or being funelled to support them through the Federation of Magic.

The great majority of the refugees in Lazlo are very definitely in the "start over with a bit of dignity" camp, specially considering how the city-state made a case against the war from the start.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:51 pm
  

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Since when is Lazlo a democracy?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:36 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Since when is Lazlo a democracy?


Well, is it described as monarchic, a dictatorship or following some other political system in any off the books? I honestly can't remember either way and republican model does seem to fit with the spirit of an essentially scholastic/academic society (not to mention a leader calling itself Plato).....


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:41 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
They mention in Rifts Main Book the government being composed of a Congress of the Electorate and a Council of Learning, which suggests an essentially teired system, with at least one elected body, but the Council of Learning is more often referenced, so one presums the Council and not the Congress is the primary governing body.

It sounds like what amounts to the Wizards Guild being the main Oligarchy ruling Lazlo but has a Parliment that is at least consulted.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:42 am
  

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Perhaps in trying to solve the refugee problem with outside interdimensional help Lazlo attracts the wrong kind of aid. Perhaps entities like the Splugorth from without and the Invisible Hand from underneath converge to corrupt Lazlo while creating criminal opportunity. Will the governors of Lazlo discover the danger in time?! Will all the refugees (and citizens!) be siphoned off as slaves across the Megaverse?! Will vile monsters (chaos demons??) set up shop in the crevices between Lazlo's freedoms, pouring fuel on the dual fires of the Aftermath and the Xiticix (edit: and the Demon Wars! duh!)?! Was Lazlo always doomed to fail, and what does such doubt do to the bravest and most noble of minds???!!!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:55 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
They mention in Rifts Main Book the government being composed of a Congress of the Electorate and a Council of Learning, which suggests an essentially teired system, with at least one elected body, but the Council of Learning is more often referenced, so one presums the Council and not the Congress is the primary governing body.

It sounds like what amounts to the Wizards Guild being the main Oligarchy ruling Lazlo but has a Parliment that is at least consulted.


Do you have page numbers for these references? I'm interested in how the information is presented. Perhaps the Counsil of Learning is simply a governmental body tasked with learning about the world, and then it disseminates the information to outside entities, thus being the most visible governmental body outside of Lazlo. Perhaps the interests or goals of this visible body are not the same as that of some or any of the members of the Congress.

The Congress itself could be full of differing opinions, and when very powerful people/creatures have the ability to pursue their own goals, ideals and interests on their own that could cause a lot of internal conflict and intrigue.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:41 am
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
It's a blurb in Lazlo's discription in the origional Rifts Main Book page 149.

Quote:
Lazlo is governed by two political bodies that serve as a check and balance system of government, they are the Congress of the Electorate and the Council of Learning. Both are composed of compassionate and intelligent beings, human and non-human, who are dedicated to freedom and the betterment of all life. A cyber-knight named Thomm heads the Congress , and an ancient great homed dragon, known as Plato, heads the Council.


That's it, that's the whole context.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:03 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It's a blurb in Lazlo's discription in the origional Rifts Main Book page 149.

Quote:
Lazlo is governed by two political bodies that serve as a check and balance system of government, they are the Congress of the Electorate and the Council of Learning. Both are composed of compassionate and intelligent beings, human and non-human, who are dedicated to freedom and the betterment of all life. A cyber-knight named Thomm heads the Congress , and an ancient great homed dragon, known as Plato, heads the Council.


That's it, that's the whole context.


Thanks! It confirms that the Council of Learning is not what I said it could be. So that's something. I know there's more about Lazlo here and there. I'm too time strapped/lazy to go through every book to find references, but I feel like we should create a database on this forum and squeeze out whatever inspiration we can from it. Someone will write the book eventually. I hope.

Yet the two bodies could still be responsible for the two different spheres: the outside world (Learning) and the city itself (Electorate). Their separate specialties could cause conflict (inherent in the idea of checks and balances). Though everyone may be "compassionate and intelligent," Learning may feel more compelled to be proactive about the outside world, and Electorate could be more worried about making sure there's a city left to do anything at all. Between these two interests, others who perhaps pretend to be compassionate can create discord by exploiting the interests. Even people who are compassionate can do so simply by feeling really strongly about stuff to the detriment of alliance of the interests, which is just what happened with the Cyber Knights (one can expect that the very same schism played itself out in the halls of Lazlo's Congress, at least to the extent of argument).

Lazlo's story could simply be about good people making impossible choices in a hostile environment. In a world of survival horror, Lazlo, so far, has been the exemplary survivalist community, but its story isn't done.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:46 pm
  

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There's also the 2 Rifters that talked about Lazlo. I can't remember right now how that writer set up the different responsibilities of the 2 governing groups, but seemed plausible to me & my co -GM.
Rifters 49 & 58.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:03 pm
  

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Myrrhibis wrote:
There's also the 2 Rifters that talked about Lazlo. I can't remember right now how that writer set up the different responsibilities of the 2 governing groups, but seemed plausible to me & my co -GM.
Rifters 49 & 58.


Yes, have yet to check them, but i do know it's a two-parter of sorts written by James Woodman.


But now on the matter of shadows in Lazlo that some people have brought up - and some interesting ones for a GM to set stories around, completely independent of refugee crisis troubles that may be a little too complicated and close to real life stuff for everybody's tastes - i would point out that Lazlo is a shining beacon of KNOWLEDGE among the many states of North America, not to say Rifts Earth.

If there's a place that makes sense as a veritable marketplace of learning in all its forms - pre-rifts maps of all kinds (city, roads, metro or train networks, military bases, popular cassinos in Vegas, McDonalds branchs, Holyday Inn hotels, whatever) and eras, updated maps of distant places, in North America, other parts of Earth or places in other dimensions, books, fiction, non-fiction or other from dozens of languages, cultures and worlds, buying or selling of all kind of stuff recovered from ruins across the continent, or even information about those ruins location and current state - it is Lazlo, the place with a Council of Learning as one of its major institutions and Erin F**kin Tarn as a unofficial goodwill ambassador.

Try to imagine Lazlo as a university city in a post-apocalyptic will all the hustle and bustle that may entail.

- Think of the strategic relevance that archeologic expeditions may have in Rifts Earth - and all the intrigue, espionage, sabotage and near-military level preparations making sure you survive and succed may involve.

- Imagine halls of learning were one may come across students or professors of all brands of magic & science in the books - and the numerous dangers of picking the wrong person to teach (be it students too irresponsible or unscrupulous for their art or teachers too vicious for one to give a whole class of pliable talents to twist), beside all the kind of messes, political, philosophical, amorous & more that are part & parsel of higher institutions of learning, but now with magicians and mad scientists mixed in. :lol:

- Consider the kind of works that might be involved in the maintenance of their ever-growing libraries and printing resources - and the kind of security measures required to protect all this humongous trove of knowledge from thieves, spies or all kind of saboteurs.

Not to mention keeping up with any weird events and informing whoever might care (remember the Edict of Planetary Distress?) or contacts they might have across any places in Rifts Earth and beyond. Or starting crazy plans involving communication (ain't there a spell or ability to send messages through ley lines? How about making Ley Line Lattice of Learning? People in the West are doing TW trains already...), spread of learning, study & exploration of the world and so on.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:21 pm
  

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did we ever get Plato's take on Dragonwright?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:24 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
did we ever get Plato's take on Dragonwright?


Considering his marked preference for being "just another citizen and representative" instead of a ruler - even an elected one - i would say one can assume with a degree of certainty he's not very interested in their monarchy by "divine(draconic) right" pretensions.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:12 am
  

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I dunno, dragons are devious creatures, perhaps that's all a ruse to get Lazlons to trust him until he can steal power and negotiate a high position in the cult.


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