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 Post subject: Electromagnetic Attack
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:26 am
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:16 am
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How did this spell even make it into print?

For 30 PPE you can disable Glitterboys for an hour if they fail to save vs. 14. Light Power Armor gets no save at all. Do Borgs just roll over for an hour too? Any weapon with an E-clip would be toast too, right?

What a joke. Guess I need to get this spell and go around collecting power armor to sell.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:36 am
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Godslayer wrote:
How did this spell even make it into print?

For 30 PPE you can disable Glitterboys for an hour if they fail to save vs. 14. Light Power Armor gets no save at all. Do Borgs just roll over for an hour too? Any weapon with an E-clip would be toast too, right?

What a joke. Guess I need to get this spell and go around collecting power armor to sell.


Borgs are considered living beings by magic and not robots or armor, and are generally immune to any psionic or spell that targets machines. Same with some other living mechanical races.

and you can do that for a while, sure, but remember, that's 30 PPE per spell, the spell won't always work, a 15' range won't hit all groups as there's rarely a reason to jam that closely togeather, and there's always friends or others out of range. a 15' range, up to 120' away, with no increase in range, ever. pretty short range as spells go. also power armor weaponry tends to have extreme range. if even one flying power armor is doing what they do and...fly...they'll never be in range.

It's powerful, sure. can you use it to successfully ambush and capture a group of tech based opponents/ Sure.

But here's the thing. a LOT of magic, powers, and other stratagies can do that.

This spell makes simpler stuff you could already do. It's not breaking any real new grounds in magical warfare.

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You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:41 am
  

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D-Bee

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It's powerful, sure. can you use it to successfully ambush and capture a group of tech based opponents/ Sure.

But here's the thing. a LOT of magic, powers, and other stratagies can do that.

This spell makes simpler stuff you could already do. It's not breaking any real new grounds in magical warfare.


There is no spell in the game, with the exception of maybe Annihilate (which you still have to hit with, and which can be dodged, and which costs twenty times as much PPE) that is going to take out something like a Glitterboy with one spell. Especially not for a paltry 30 PPE.

It's the most broken spell in the game.

Giving it the same effects as the Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse power from PU1 would have made a lot more sense.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:07 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
You have to get HOW close to a glitter boy to do it?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:27 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Godslayer wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It's powerful, sure. can you use it to successfully ambush and capture a group of tech based opponents/ Sure.

But here's the thing. a LOT of magic, powers, and other stratagies can do that.

This spell makes simpler stuff you could already do. It's not breaking any real new grounds in magical warfare.


There is no spell in the game, with the exception of maybe Annihilate (which you still have to hit with, and which can be dodged, and which costs twenty times as much PPE) that is going to take out something like a Glitterboy with one spell. Especially not for a paltry 30 PPE.

It's the most broken spell in the game.

Giving it the same effects as the Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse power from PU1 would have made a lot more sense.

Oh no. It isn't even remotely the most broken spell in the game.
That might be Quick Attack (same book) that allows you to over rule a n20 defense roll.

But lets be honest here. The entire Mercenary Adventures book from top to bottom is pretty badly done.
-The spells are either insanely weak or massively over powered
Mystic Invisibility, Invisibility to Sensors, Mystic Marksmanship, Slam, Engine Flame out, Blast Shield, Bullet Proof, Shock blade... the choice of 'most over powered' is pretty hard to pick just one.
-The classes make little to no sense, are written in in easy to abuse confusing ways and offer some insane bonuses
-The magic is 'controlled' by being 'crude, so no real mage will use the most powerful invocations in existance' (say what?)
-The boot camp allows for people to gain bonuses better than many OCCs simply by completing an adventure...

The book is pretty much a poster child of power creep and lack of editorial oversight

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:35 am
  

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D-Bee

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Please. Quick attack isn't going to defeat a Glitterboy. Electromagnetic Attack is going to beat a Glitterboy more then half the time. I don't think they even get a bonus to the roll.

But forget the Glitterboy, everytime you cast this spell you are almost gaurenteed to collect a million dollars. Light power armor gets no save at all!

There is also nothing to indicate that borgs get a save. Or weapons.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:51 am
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
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Godslayer wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It's powerful, sure. can you use it to successfully ambush and capture a group of tech based opponents/ Sure.

But here's the thing. a LOT of magic, powers, and other stratagies can do that.

This spell makes simpler stuff you could already do. It's not breaking any real new grounds in magical warfare.


There is no spell in the game, with the exception of maybe Annihilate (which you still have to hit with, and which can be dodged, and which costs twenty times as much PPE) that is going to take out something like a Glitterboy with one spell. Especially not for a paltry 30 PPE.

It's the most broken spell in the game.

Giving it the same effects as the Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse power from PU1 would have made a lot more sense.


a psychic can just use the various telemechanics powers, allowing no saving throw or other defense at all, and take over the machine.

it may also be possible to use magic net (depends on how "human-sized" the GM feels the glitter boy is... personally, given that it can work on up to 6 human-sized targets, i would be inclined to think it is at least theoretically possible to get it to work on a single glitter boy in the right situation), with only a dodge roll (which they won't get if they're unaware, and if you're fighting a glitter boy at the ranges these spells work on, you probably surprised them). whether that works or not, carpet of adhesion will generally speaking allow you to and trivialize the process of defeating the glitter boy if you're already that close (the only built-in weapon is forward-facing, and handheld weapons are going to have a hard time dealing with an opponent behind the suit... not impossible, but it sure isn't going to be an easy shot. and if you fall over, you're really screwed). the saving throw on *that* gives you a number of melee rounds to escape before you can do anything. and it isn't expensive, so you can spam it a couple times to make sure they fail at least once before they can really do anything about it.

simply put, if you can just walk right up to a power armour or robot vehicle with impunity, being able to seriously ruin its day with a spell is not particularly unusual. that potential has existed since the first rifts book was published. having another spell that can do the same thing is nothing new, and not particularly more broken than what magic could already do in the same circumstances.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:22 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1900
Godslayer wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
It's powerful, sure. can you use it to successfully ambush and capture a group of tech based opponents/ Sure.

But here's the thing. a LOT of magic, powers, and other stratagies can do that.

This spell makes simpler stuff you could already do. It's not breaking any real new grounds in magical warfare.


There is no spell in the game, with the exception of maybe Annihilate (which you still have to hit with, and which can be dodged, and which costs twenty times as much PPE) that is going to take out something like a Glitterboy with one spell. Especially not for a paltry 30 PPE.


Carpet of Adhesion would like a word with you.

As would Teleport: Lesser.

Both can be used to take out a Glitter Boy with absurd ease.

Using them together is even better.

Honestly, ive always thought spells with saves were basically useless. Bonuses to Saves vs Magic arent super rare, meaning this spell is going to fail 50% of the time.

And, enjoy getting that close to the guy.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:42 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Again, you have to be with in 120 feet of the Glitterboy to use this.

They can light you up two miles out. 3D6X10 per.

You have to be with in.... 120 feet. So at your max range you're with in the range of the penalties for being 'too close' to the Glitter boy. Even if he misses you you're at -8 inits, -3 to parry and dodge for 1 to 8 minutes. and every time they fire that duration goes up. While your ears are ringing that Glitter boy is going to either smear you across the ground at point blank range or run up and pull your head off your shoulders.

But again, he can start lighting you up from 2 MILES out. What are you going to do to avoid getting shredded for the first 10,000 feet of the engagement?

Now I'm sure you're going to go "Well I wouldn't engage him 2 miles out!"

Well, yeah but that's where he's going to want to engage you. It's a walking howitzer. Not a rockum sockum robot. But to get with in your 120 feet you're going to have to get close and he's gonna take a shot at the guy in robes coming at him chanting and making obscene hand gestures. Even if by the grace of some god, he misses and you're not a red mist on the wind, you're deafened with that -8 penalty to inits. Remember via the rules any defensive action messes up your magic and you lose that spell. Running, dodging etc.

Which is going to be hard to overcome, when he has no penalty of that nature. So he's going to be able to keep shooting at you as you try and close range and likely 'first'. That boom gun doesn't tickle.

So many mage players forget this next part. "Unless it's a Level 1 -5 invocation", the action of parrying, dodging, or striking back breaks your concentration. Your spell doesn't go off. MORE OVER you need a breather of 7-10 seconds to cast a higher level spell. Which means any defensive action what so ever will prevent your lvl 8 spell from happening. Then you need a 7-10 second breather to get your concentration back.

Now if the glitter boy for some reason stops attacking you. (A dragon is chewing on it, I don't know) You could try again after you've caught your breath. But again, any defensive or even offensive action in that time frame prevents you from casting the spell. Getting popped in the mouth or stomach, getting knocked down, or blinded, or anything that makes you stop in the middle of your verbilization, prevents it from going off. Sort of like a sonic boom going off with in 200 feet of you?

The book goes on to say that if you're interrupted you have to start all over again.

It goes on to say

"Can't cast magic when under direct attack. This also means if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (Le., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action. To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath (that should count as one or two of his melee actions/attacks) and then cast his spell (another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level).

"Any physical action"

So.... if you enter into combat with the glitter boy. Even if point blank range. you pretty much have to stand there, chant, and fire off your spell. The Combat trained power armor pilot is likely to beat you to the draw. And then... You're in combat. He's shooting at you as often as he can. You're deaf and -8 inits after the first blast. You're on the defense. On the defense you can't cast higher level spells till you stop, and catch your breath for a few melee actions.

Melee actions I ASSURE You that Glitter boy pilot is goign to KEEP shooting you. Which means you're either 1) Dodging or 2) Being hit which.... resets your cool down timer on your spell as you'll need a few melee actions to catch your breath after any of those to concentrate and fire off another spell. Tha boom gun is going to keep booming.

So say you overcome the bot's sensors, and the people that tend to go around and keep little things from bum rushing their shiny howitzer. Say you some how get with in the 120 feet. Get inits, get your spell off and the pilot fails the save roll.

It's not over. You haven't 'stolen the bot' you've still got a pissed off pilot inside. One that can pop the hatch and shoot at you, using the inactive parts of the bot as cover. "Well EMP your laser pistol isn't going to work either" Ehhh debatable as it's inside the bot but your SMG with the ramjet rounds will still work. won't hit NEARLY as hard as that boom gun, but it's not a given you've just won the day. You've got to get the pilot out, to get in and take it.

You're surely not strutting onto a battle field with a emp with a 120 foot range and ruling the day. A lvl 1 grunt is going to start lighting you up at 1500 to 2000 feet, much less those in power armor and robots.

The only only only way your plan works is if you get with in the 120 feet, and manage to fire off the spell (Which takes vocalisation and gestures) Before the Pilot takes his first shot.

Which means you make a prowl roll, it's not contested or overcome, you win inits, against a pilot that starts off with +1 to inits, just from his occ and +1 attack per melee for being a GB pilot. Then he has RCE: Glitter boy which add on another +2 attacks, at first level. And another +2 to inits, and a +3 to strike with the boom gun, again, at first level, and the boom gun has advanced laser targeting as well for another +2 to strike.

So straight from the jump a 18 year old glitter boy pilot stepping out on his first day adventuring has +3 on inits, with out even looking at other combat skills and has +3 attacks, and +5 to strike with the boom gun. After the first shot of you with in 200 feet. (Not 120 for your spell) you're at -8 inits. So effectively he's at +11 on inits on you. You're NOT getting inits. he's going to have them and press the attack till you're dead.

If you don't fire off that spell at point blank range, by him rolling VERY low on inits and you rolling VERY high, you're not getting that spell off. Because you're going to be running and dodging that boom gun, and or getting blown around the battle field by it, which prevents you from 'ever' getting the spell off. (And the Gm would have to rule that being deafened didn't trigger the same thing as being blinded, from the very first attack.)

Miss that ONE AMBUSH Spell shot and your mage is toast.

You may get lucky. You might ambush and beat the pilot to inits once. You may even do it twice. But are you betting you're going to beat him to scratch every time? The first time you fail you're a red mist.

Even if you DID shut it down, it's rare that power armor people are just out for a stroll alone. You've still got his buddies to deal with and they're likely to be pretty cheesed off you just messed with their boomer. Your spell has pitiful range in a 'ranged' engagement, and they're going to unload on you with all they have.

Remember the default of RPG Combat. "Kill the healer/mage FIRST"

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:31 am
  

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Supreme Being

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Eh, it's a potentially powerful spell.

If the caster can get close enough. (Presumably he's going to sneak up.)
If the target fails the save. (Which is likely, with a 14 required.)
If the caster can deal with the pilot. (Plausible, the mage should be able to handle a pilot, if the pilot even gets out. If the pilot decides to wait it out inside, then things get more interesting.)
If the victim is alone. (This is more concerning, as it's unlikely to find a PA just standing around by himself.)

The spell isn't an "I win" button, but neither is it useless. It requires the user to use fore-thought and planning, and to setup the right conditions.

All in all, this adds up to some good role-playing. :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:29 am
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Again, you have to be with in 120 feet of the Glitterboy to use this.

They can light you up two miles out. 3D6X10 per.

You have to be with in.... 120 feet. So at your max range you're with in the range of the penalties for being 'too close' to the Glitter boy. Even if he misses you you're at -8 inits, -3 to parry and dodge for 1 to 8 minutes. and every time they fire that duration goes up. While your ears are ringing that Glitter boy is going to either smear you across the ground at point blank range or run up and pull your head off your shoulders.

But again, he can start lighting you up from 2 MILES out. What are you going to do to avoid getting shredded for the first 10,000 feet of the engagement?

Now I'm sure you're going to go "Well I wouldn't engage him 2 miles out!"

Well, yeah but that's where he's going to want to engage you. It's a walking howitzer. Not a rockum sockum robot. But to get with in your 120 feet you're going to have to get close and he's gonna take a shot at the guy in robes coming at him chanting and making obscene hand gestures. Even if by the grace of some god, he misses and you're not a red mist on the wind, you're deafened with that -8 penalty to inits. Remember via the rules any defensive action messes up your magic and you lose that spell. Running, dodging etc.

Which is going to be hard to overcome, when he has no penalty of that nature. So he's going to be able to keep shooting at you as you try and close range and likely 'first'. That boom gun doesn't tickle.

So many mage players forget this next part. "Unless it's a Level 1 -5 invocation", the action of parrying, dodging, or striking back breaks your concentration. Your spell doesn't go off. MORE OVER you need a breather of 7-10 seconds to cast a higher level spell. Which means any defensive action what so ever will prevent your lvl 8 spell from happening. Then you need a 7-10 second breather to get your concentration back.

Now if the glitter boy for some reason stops attacking you. (A dragon is chewing on it, I don't know) You could try again after you've caught your breath. But again, any defensive or even offensive action in that time frame prevents you from casting the spell. Getting popped in the mouth or stomach, getting knocked down, or blinded, or anything that makes you stop in the middle of your verbilization, prevents it from going off. Sort of like a sonic boom going off with in 200 feet of you?

The book goes on to say that if you're interrupted you have to start all over again.

It goes on to say

"Can't cast magic when under direct attack. This also means if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (Le., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action. To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath (that should count as one or two of his melee actions/attacks) and then cast his spell (another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level).

"Any physical action"

So.... if you enter into combat with the glitter boy. Even if point blank range. you pretty much have to stand there, chant, and fire off your spell. The Combat trained power armor pilot is likely to beat you to the draw. And then... You're in combat. He's shooting at you as often as he can. You're deaf and -8 inits after the first blast. You're on the defense. On the defense you can't cast higher level spells till you stop, and catch your breath for a few melee actions.

Melee actions I ASSURE You that Glitter boy pilot is goign to KEEP shooting you. Which means you're either 1) Dodging or 2) Being hit which.... resets your cool down timer on your spell as you'll need a few melee actions to catch your breath after any of those to concentrate and fire off another spell. Tha boom gun is going to keep booming.

So say you overcome the bot's sensors, and the people that tend to go around and keep little things from bum rushing their shiny howitzer. Say you some how get with in the 120 feet. Get inits, get your spell off and the pilot fails the save roll.

It's not over. You haven't 'stolen the bot' you've still got a pissed off pilot inside. One that can pop the hatch and shoot at you, using the inactive parts of the bot as cover. "Well EMP your laser pistol isn't going to work either" Ehhh debatable as it's inside the bot but your SMG with the ramjet rounds will still work. won't hit NEARLY as hard as that boom gun, but it's not a given you've just won the day. You've got to get the pilot out, to get in and take it.

You're surely not strutting onto a battle field with a emp with a 120 foot range and ruling the day. A lvl 1 grunt is going to start lighting you up at 1500 to 2000 feet, much less those in power armor and robots.

The only only only way your plan works is if you get with in the 120 feet, and manage to fire off the spell (Which takes vocalisation and gestures) Before the Pilot takes his first shot.

Which means you make a prowl roll, it's not contested or overcome, you win inits, against a pilot that starts off with +1 to inits, just from his occ and +1 attack per melee for being a GB pilot. Then he has RCE: Glitter boy which add on another +2 attacks, at first level. And another +2 to inits, and a +3 to strike with the boom gun, again, at first level, and the boom gun has advanced laser targeting as well for another +2 to strike.

So straight from the jump a 18 year old glitter boy pilot stepping out on his first day adventuring has +3 on inits, with out even looking at other combat skills and has +3 attacks, and +5 to strike with the boom gun. After the first shot of you with in 200 feet. (Not 120 for your spell) you're at -8 inits. So effectively he's at +11 on inits on you. You're NOT getting inits. he's going to have them and press the attack till you're dead.

If you don't fire off that spell at point blank range, by him rolling VERY low on inits and you rolling VERY high, you're not getting that spell off. Because you're going to be running and dodging that boom gun, and or getting blown around the battle field by it, which prevents you from 'ever' getting the spell off. (And the Gm would have to rule that being deafened didn't trigger the same thing as being blinded, from the very first attack.)

Miss that ONE AMBUSH Spell shot and your mage is toast.

You may get lucky. You might ambush and beat the pilot to inits once. You may even do it twice. But are you betting you're going to beat him to scratch every time? The first time you fail you're a red mist.

Even if you DID shut it down, it's rare that power armor people are just out for a stroll alone. You've still got his buddies to deal with and they're likely to be pretty cheesed off you just messed with their boomer. Your spell has pitiful range in a 'ranged' engagement, and they're going to unload on you with all they have.

Remember the default of RPG Combat. "Kill the healer/mage FIRST"


For I pretty much agree. You CAN ambush power armor squadrons with magic, heck, Seige on Tolkeen books do have some halfway decent gurilla tactics outlined for a magic-heavy group to do just that in the short term.

But your talking weeks of preperation, planning, and lying in wait for a patrol of...whatever group of power armors you hoping to start stealing. And eventually they're going to notice that patrols sent out there are not coming back, so they're going to start sending out scouting parties in force to scour the entire region and flush out whoever's doing it, and that's the real dangerous part, because now they're traveling in huge, spread out, co-ordinated groups and the Spell can't possibly tag them all. You take one squad out there's another on their way, and like Pepi said, once one of them gets your location off, the rest can start engaging you long before you can engage them.

As Mack said, it's a great opportunity for roleplay and setting up some nice Ambush's, but it's by no means a sure shot, and will only work until people get wise to it and adapt to the new threat environment. If it's really that unstoppable all that's going to happen is Tech powers double the size of patrols and split them 30 feet or more apart so no one EMP spell can possibly take out all of them.

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Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:50 am
  

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Explorer

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Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Everyone is talking about how hard it is to get near and forgets that it's being cast by a mage of some kind. It takes 3 spells to get this off without an hitch... Invisibility, Fly, EMP. Cast invisibility on yourself, cast Fly on your easily made harness (I combined a climbing harness with an LBE rig), come in from behind and cast EMP. So you took out the Glitterboy, great, but everyone is right about it probably not being alone. You might be seen by someone using heat or thermal vision, but who really uses them in daylight?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:10 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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I look at this spell (and most spells) this way: it's a tool in your magical toolbox. It's not always the best, or right tool, but it's another option available depending on the circumstance.

While this discussion has largely focused on wilderness combat, there's a ton of other scenarios where this spell (this tool) would be useful.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:56 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
HarleeKnight wrote:
Everyone is talking about how hard it is to get near and forgets that it's being cast by a mage of some kind. It takes 3 spells to get this off without an hitch... Invisibility, Fly, EMP. Cast invisibility on yourself, cast Fly on your easily made harness (I combined a climbing harness with an LBE rig), come in from behind and cast EMP. So you took out the Glitterboy, great, but everyone is right about it probably not being alone. You might be seen by someone using heat or thermal vision, but who really uses them in daylight?


The problem is; people wearing power armor, and especially people deploying power armor, are generally aware of common tools in the mage toolkits.

That's why Power Armors are never deployed alone if anyone can help it. Even lone Glitter Boys tend to travel with friends for this reason.

Dog Packs/psi-stalkers generally screen any heavy troops for exactly this reason, so they can light up targets that can't be seen. Thermal sensors see though lesser invisibility just fine and every PA has it. There is gear and equipment that exist that allow one person who CAN see the target to mark it for other's targeting systems to fire at even if that system can't see anything there. And Thermal is passive for Power armors, meaning it's always on, even if the HUD isn't displaying it the targeting computer is tracking it.

The question isn't weather you can sneak up on some power armor and disable it sometimes. Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't.

Which makes it like any other useful spell. It's good in some situations, for some purposes, and less useful in others.

Which means the spell is balanced. which is all we're really saying. It's good at what it does, but requires a lot of setup. That's a decently balanced spell.


The real problem isn't the spell or the system, it's more often GM's who don't know how to play to Rift's Technological factions strengths properly. Which in many cases means never putting out a lot of expensive technology alone. You think the CS/Imshming/Whoever doesn't know how valube those things are? You never send tanks out Unsupported. Always have psionic sniffers like Psi-stalkers or other psionics who can see the Invisible at all times for one thing.

So no, No one forgets about those tools in the mage toolkit, you are forgetting everyone else hasn't forgotton and factors it into their unit deployments. If your GM routinely deploys technological, expensive units in tech-only units with no support, no backup, closely packed, and no psionic or magical backup, then yea they can seem really easy, but that's only because they're playing with the Dunce cap on.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:58 pm
  

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
HarleeKnight wrote:
Everyone is talking about how hard it is to get near and forgets that it's being cast by a mage of some kind. It takes 3 spells to get this off without an hitch... Invisibility, Fly, EMP. Cast invisibility on yourself, cast Fly on your easily made harness (I combined a climbing harness with an LBE rig), come in from behind and cast EMP. So you took out the Glitterboy, great, but everyone is right about it probably not being alone. You might be seen by someone using heat or thermal vision, but who really uses them in daylight?


The problem is; people wearing power armor, and especially people deploying power armor, are generally aware of common tools in the mage toolkits.

That's why Power Armors are never deployed alone if anyone can help it. Even lone Glitter Boys tend to travel with friends for this reason.

Dog Packs/psi-stalkers generally screen any heavy troops for exactly this reason, so they can light up targets that can't be seen. Thermal sensors see though lesser invisibility just fine and every PA has it. There is gear and equipment that exist that allow one person who CAN see the target to mark it for other's targeting systems to fire at even if that system can't see anything there. And Thermal is passive for Power armors, meaning it's always on, even if the HUD isn't displaying it the targeting computer is tracking it.

The question isn't weather you can sneak up on some power armor and disable it sometimes. Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't.

Which makes it like any other useful spell. It's good in some situations, for some purposes, and less useful in others.

Which means the spell is balanced. which is all we're really saying. It's good at what it does, but requires a lot of setup. That's a decently balanced spell.


The real problem isn't the spell or the system, it's more often GM's who don't know how to play to Rift's Technological factions strengths properly. Which in many cases means never putting out a lot of expensive technology alone. You think the CS/Imshming/Whoever doesn't know how valube those things are? You never send tanks out Unsupported. Always have psionic sniffers like Psi-stalkers or other psionics who can see the Invisible at all times for one thing.

So no, No one forgets about those tools in the mage toolkit, you are forgetting everyone else hasn't forgotton and factors it into their unit deployments. If your GM routinely deploys technological, expensive units in tech-only units with no support, no backup, closely packed, and no psionic or magical backup, then yea they can seem really easy, but that's only because they're playing with the Dunce cap on.


THIS THIS THIS THIS!

Exactly this. I've run into it so often here on the forums. People tend to play the CS and other tech factions as if they've got the IQ of radishes and don't USE their tech.

You think if a force that can afford to field a glitter boy, or such (The CS) Is going to let you prey on their power armor/robots/troops?

I can't tell you the number of threads where people brag about hunting CS troops for fun and profit. As if a technological army of millions wouldn't send someone to handle your little player group.

If absolutely nothing else they would eventually just carpet bomb if they need to. lol

I've run games at conventions and for people before where they get LIVID when Tech troops fall back and call in artillery or missile strikes. "Well how is my mage supposed to deal with THAT!???"

I don't know.. don't prey on the hyper technological army of millions when there's three of you in a mounaineer ORV?

As Neki said, the tech troops are going to be trained to handle this stuff. Firing on targets they might not even see. "Contact to the east, Grid mark 13" and everyone in the unit turns and fires on Grid Mark 13. "Contact 3 o'clock high. Third floor of the building second window. BOOOOOOM! "Target acquired, laser designation marking, combined fire on my mark!" and everyone looks where the laser is pointing and unleashes hell. Remember, in Rifts your combat is going to be Mega damage combat 99% of the time. "Cover" Needs to be mega damage to remain cover. lol Tactics very likely include punching basketball sized holes in what ever the guys trying to magic you are hiding behind. Heck if a mage is sniping you from a building in some urban envrion a few shots to the lower level might bring down the entire building and solve your problems. Now if it's YOUR building you might not want to do that, but in ruins or a place where you don't live. I'll TOTALLY fire off a grenade or two to drop a building on a mage. ETC

But again as Neki said. It's not that the spell is useless. it's that it takes a lot of planning and what not to get maximum usage out of it. It's not an I win and collect untold millions in Power armor sales.

(If nothing else when you try this, you have to sell the stolen stuff and the people you stole it from are going to be looking for it. Even if you killed the pilot his buddies can come to the same place you're trying to sell at and try and find you, or even.... set up an ambush for you.

Just like mages can set up ambushes to maximize their potential, so can the tech targets against a mage. and they have the range to make it much harder 1) for you to escape and 2) For you to strike back. The pitiful range of magic is 100% intentional in Palladium. Kevin says so right in the main book. It's -purposefully- like that to help balance the utility of magic against the static nature of tech.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:19 pm
  

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Knight

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I was checking my FoM book for this until I eventually found this 8th level spell on Mercenary Adventures pg 17...

At 150ft + 15ft radius, you could zap an E-Clip up to 165 feet away...

For comparison though, a 7th level spell costing a mere 20 PPE (Sub-Particle Acceleration, first appeared FOM 143) could target an E-Clip from 100ft per level, so a 2nd level mage would have a better range than with EM Attack...

Admittedly this only lets you disable a FULL e-clip (although if it isn't full, you can fill it with 1 or more castings and then overfill it) but it doesn't just temporarily disable (would e-clips be hardened and get a 14+ save too?) it like EM attack: it causes it to EXPLODE and do 2d6x10 MD to a 10ft radius, which can be a lot more effective than the basic MD (1d6x10+level to one target) that it normally does.

With that in mind, the e-clip consideration doesn't seem that unbalanced.

Negate Mechanics (FOM 142, same level and PPE cost as SPA) is also another consideration for the use of the spell against Glitter-Boys. The range is merely 100ft but it can stop a gun (of any kind) from firing for 1 melee round, and there's NO savings throw.

That may not be 1d6x10 minutes but keep in mind it would be improved with ley lines or other means of extending duration, whereas EM would not (it has an "instant" duration, I don't think the length it takes for machines to recover would actually improve from a ley line) which could approach something better.

Negate Mechanics isn't so good against PA/bots with alternative weapon systems to rely on, but one-trick ponies like GB who rely on a boom gun can be very inconvenienced by it. Particularly if you have a way to boost the range of NM, such as the "TW Jammer" pistol (FOM 113) which takes it up to 600ft. I assume TW weapon ranges don't increase from ley lines unless explicitly stated, though not 100% sure on that...

Godslayer wrote:
There is no spell in the game, with the exception of maybe Annihilate (which you still have to hit with, and which can be dodged, and which costs twenty times as much PPE) that is going to take out something like a Glitterboy with one spell. Especially not for a paltry 30 PPE.

See above, unless a GB has some backup weapons, disabling the boom gun pretty much neutralizes it as a threat at range, though EM does admittedly allow you to get up close without it doing MD punches on you, which could be useful if you're trying to pry open the armor.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Borgs are considered living beings by magic and not robots or armor, and are generally immune to any psionic or spell that targets machines.

Negate Mechanics explicitly works against cyborgs to freeze joints, knock out radar/sensors/optics/radio, make their arm blaster unresponsive... but it won't work against cybernetic implants or systems directly connected to flesh/blood/organ (can't stop bionic lungs).

Also can't work on "any system encased or connected to living flesh" which includes "bionic and cybernetic bio-systems". Nano-machines are also somehow immune.

eliakon wrote:
It isn't even remotely the most broken spell in the game.
That might be Quick Attack (same book) that allows you to over rule a n20 defense roll.

Godslayer wrote:
Please. Quick attack isn't going to defeat a Glitterboy.

Minor quibble: it's "Quickstrike", 4th level spell on pg 12, right below "Quickaction".

Beating natural 20s doesn't seem broken at all, it's high time we had a means to avoid that silliness. The spell is definitely a "gamechanger" but to those who consider a 5% chance of a perfect dodge (no matter how bad that dodger is) broken to begin with, it's actually more of a gameFIXER.

Since you must "better that roll by at least five", you might arguably require beating the modified end-result. If 25 was ALWAYS the number to beat, I think they would've just said that. That they give a "by 5", I think the parenthesized calculation is merely one example of how to calculate the number to beat for a character who lacks dodge modifiers.

I think for example, if Splynncryth dodged (at -2) his modified natural 20 would be 18, so beating it by 5 would only require a 23 to strike. Whereas if someone who dodges at +10 got a natural 20, their modified 30 would only be beatable by a modified 35 to strike.

This vague part:
    A poor die roll could defeat this spell (consider it fate)
I think might be referring to the guidelines under quickaction: that a 1-7 could defeat it.

I can't say I necessarily understand the context of that though, whether it's a 1-7 by the spellcaster which causes failure or a 1-7 by the opposing roller, and if that refers to natural 1-7 or modified 1-7.

If it was the spellcaster's roll then Quickaction's +10 makes it unlikely it would refer to a modified 1-7 as the minimum of 11 means you would need inherent penalties of at least -4 to your roll to make a 7 even possible (although the -10 to dodge lasers or whatev could swing that)

If it's 1-7 on the opposing roll, then the downside of potentially dodging natural 20s is that natural 1s could suddenly be unavoidable instead, which would actually be WORSE... which is why I'm thinking perhaps it might be a modified 1-7 by opposer, meaning you're not vulnerable to high-bonus guys but rather vulnerable to low-bonus guys.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
The problem is; people wearing power armor, and especially people deploying power armor, are generally aware of common tools in the mage toolkits.

I wouldn't imagine they would be unless they had Lore:Magic, and even then, at low levels that might be unaware of advanced spells or their combos.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:36 pm
  

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Knight

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Neikira Sudacne wrote:
Thermal sensors see though lesser invisibility just fine and every PA has it.

No, not every power armor has Thermal sensors or any type of optic sensors for that matter per the Standard Equipment listing (RMB pg211-2, RUE pg273). Yes some specific models and/or manufacturers do have thermal sensors (CS Samas and Glitterboys for ex), but it is not a standard feature of all power armor.

I know it doesn't make sense, but that is technically RAW unless they changed the list in a book I don't have.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:00 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
ShadowLogan wrote:
Neikira Sudacne wrote:
Thermal sensors see though lesser invisibility just fine and every PA has it.

No, not every power armor has Thermal sensors or any type of optic sensors for that matter per the Standard Equipment listing (RMB pg211-2, RUE pg273). Yes some specific models and/or manufacturers do have thermal sensors (CS Samas and Glitterboys for ex), but it is not a standard feature of all power armor.

I know it doesn't make sense, but that is technically RAW unless they changed the list in a book I don't have.


*checks* You are right it is only certain manufactuers. Still, Thermal imaging systems are so friggin cheep compared to the cost of a PA it's safe to assume someone in their group will have it.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:10 pm
  

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Does Invisibility: Simple do anything to prevent you from being picked up on radar?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Does Invisibility: Simple do anything to prevent you from being picked up on radar?


Nothing at all.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm
  

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Explorer

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Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Now, for the record, I would never use my combo against an army because I would never go against an army. I would, however, use it against a squad, a mercenary group, raiders, etc.; you know, the small things most groups go up against. Also, I would use it while the rest of my group is distracting the enemy. If the enemy happens to call in an artillery strike, I doubt they would call it on themselves, so I would be fairly safe. As for the rest of my group... well, I'm not the leader so I'm not the one who said attack a group capable of calling in an air strike.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Does Invisibility: Simple do anything to prevent you from being picked up on radar?


Nope, but without much metal or hardened material it shouldn't be too much of a problem for the mage in question. The radar signature would be small and most likely ignored... I hope.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:21 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Sure, the smaller squads like Mercenaries are more vunerable, but that's also why "high powered supernatural security squad" is one of the available features to mercenary companies. so is Psionic Sensitive groups. Basically they might not have the support or backup or airstrikes of an established power, but they also, generally, don't share the tech factions hestiation to deploy magic, and mostly have mages of their own in the group, if not more powerful supernatural troops, so even if you take out the Power Armors and some of the tech troops they're not out of the fight completely.

As I said: Electromagnetic Attack is useful and powerful. you CAN use it to devistating effect.

But it's not an automatic I-Win button. It requires a lot of careful planning a prep and things can go wrong once contact with the enemy is made.

That doesn't mean you can't use it to score a nice haul of power armor to sell.

It just means you still have to work for your prize.

That makes it balanced. the OP was saying it was too easy and overpowered. Just it's not as simple as invisibility-fly-electromagnetic-win. We're saying it's possible but difficult. Not that you can't do it.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:05 pm
  

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Comment: For the White Rose!!!
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Sure, the smaller squads like Mercenaries are more vunerable, but that's also why "high powered supernatural security squad" is one of the available features to mercenary companies. so is Psionic Sensitive groups. Basically they might not have the support or backup or airstrikes of an established power, but they also, generally, don't share the tech factions hestiation to deploy magic, and mostly have mages of their own in the group, if not more powerful supernatural troops, so even if you take out the Power Armors and some of the tech troops they're not out of the fight completely.

As I said: Electromagnetic Attack is useful and powerful. you CAN use it to devistating effect.

But it's not an automatic I-Win button. It requires a lot of careful planning a prep and things can go wrong once contact with the enemy is made.

That doesn't mean you can't use it to score a nice haul of power armor to sell.

It just means you still have to work for your prize.

That makes it balanced. the OP was saying it was too easy and overpowered. Just it's not as simple as invisibility-fly-electromagnetic-win. We're saying it's possible but difficult. Not that you can't do it.


I agree, and I guess it might have come off like I was stating as a clear win and that wasn't my intent. My point was that it is both easier and more difficult than described but not as complicated, depending on the adversary.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Does Invisibility: Simple do anything to prevent you from being picked up on radar?


Nothing at all.


Here's an interesting Q: about about D-Phase or a Psi-Ghost using Intangibility? Nothing to bounce off of?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:39 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
That makes it balanced. the OP was saying it was too easy and overpowered. Just it's not as simple as invisibility-fly-electromagnetic-win. We're saying it's possible but difficult. Not that you can't do it.


Lots of good points here. I wasn't trying to make a serious argument that it's an automatic I-Win attack for Mages, but I'll continue to argue that it's not balanced.

Worse however, is I just don't think the spell makes any sense. I think it's been well established that EMP doesn't knock out Megadamage Power armor. The one exception is the CS Navy book where it give a full blown Nuke a 25% chance of frying Power Armor. (But that too is ridiculousness).

Hardened Power Armor is at best going to get turned off by an EMP blast. Meaning the pilot just has to hit the power button again. If you were driving a car, you'd just have to turn the key again. I doubt even that. But I get it. It's a common Sci-Fi myth.

And let's not forget that this same books makes it pretty easy for a Mage to sneak up on people in Power Armor now. Invisibility to Sensors combined with normal Invisibility make the Mage nearly undetectable.

Bottom line: If you can't find ways to abuse this spell and make millions, you're just a bad mage. (Also, I'd be pretty pissed if I made a Super with Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse, then some joker started casting this spell.)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:46 pm
  

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Keep in mind it's not a normal EMP. It's a magical EMP. ;)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:11 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Godslayer wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
That makes it balanced. the OP was saying it was too easy and overpowered. Just it's not as simple as invisibility-fly-electromagnetic-win. We're saying it's possible but difficult. Not that you can't do it.


Lots of good points here. I wasn't trying to make a serious argument that it's an automatic I-Win attack for Mages, but I'll continue to argue that it's not balanced.

Worse however, is I just don't think the spell makes any sense. I think it's been well established that EMP doesn't knock out Megadamage Power armor. The one exception is the CS Navy book where it give a full blown Nuke a 25% chance of frying Power Armor. (But that too is ridiculousness).

Hardened Power Armor is at best going to get turned off by an EMP blast. Meaning the pilot just has to hit the power button again. If you were driving a car, you'd just have to turn the key again. I doubt even that. But I get it. It's a common Sci-Fi myth.

And let's not forget that this same books makes it pretty easy for a Mage to sneak up on people in Power Armor now. Invisibility to Sensors combined with normal Invisibility make the Mage nearly undetectable.

Bottom line: If you can't find ways to abuse this spell and make millions, you're just a bad mage. (Also, I'd be pretty pissed if I made a Super with Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse, then some joker started casting this spell.)


Well, again, I never said you can't use it to make millions, I just said it's not quite that simple to do so.

Invisibility Superior also makes you immune to most sensors, so that's not really adding anything new to the equation, That's still why anyone with power armor has psionics or mages to screen for this kind of thing. So it's no easier or harder than it was before. Plus some random dude with a multi-optics helmet gets a save and if he saves then he can see you with the thermal juust fine. If your trump card can be canceled out by some of the most common gear in the game...yea, don't expect it to be TOO useful.

You also forget that the combat mage is a very uncommon school of magic and most don't know it at all, those that exist will not be too eager to share their new discoveries. ((I mean if it's really worth millions, why should they give it to YOU for anything less than tens of millions?)). The entire school is all but forgotton, it's unlikely your character knows the spell even exists to seek it out.

I still think it is balanced and your GM is just not very good at playing Technological fractions well. How easy it is to sneak up on a lone power armor is not very relevent because in setting there should be no such thing as a lone power armor to sneak up on unless you go to a lot of trouble to set it up, and at that point you have to do a lot of work to make the spell useful, so it's balanced.

Multi-Optics helmets. Laser Desginators. If your mage has Psionics, you forget the CS has a Psionic-Radar that will automatically detect psychics up to 400 feet in any direction. And the good Dog boys/Psi-Stalkers/Random Psionics who can just see the invisibile.

It's possible to use this spell to make millions, but there's enough tech to counter that I don't think it's overwhelming.

Now I will grant the spell could be less powerful without being too weak, but balance is not exactly even, some swing higher or lower, and there are other spells I'd consider more deserving of the unbalanced slot.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:15 am
  

Champion

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Godslayer wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
That makes it balanced. the OP was saying it was too easy and overpowered. Just it's not as simple as invisibility-fly-electromagnetic-win. We're saying it's possible but difficult. Not that you can't do it.


Lots of good points here. I wasn't trying to make a serious argument that it's an automatic I-Win attack for Mages, but I'll continue to argue that it's not balanced.

Worse however, is I just don't think the spell makes any sense. I think it's been well established that EMP doesn't knock out Megadamage Power armor. The one exception is the CS Navy book where it give a full blown Nuke a 25% chance of frying Power Armor. (But that too is ridiculousness).

Hardened Power Armor is at best going to get turned off by an EMP blast. Meaning the pilot just has to hit the power button again. If you were driving a car, you'd just have to turn the key again. I doubt even that. But I get it. It's a common Sci-Fi myth.

And let's not forget that this same books makes it pretty easy for a Mage to sneak up on people in Power Armor now. Invisibility to Sensors combined with normal Invisibility make the Mage nearly undetectable.

Bottom line: If you can't find ways to abuse this spell and make millions, you're just a bad mage. (Also, I'd be pretty pissed if I made a Super with Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse, then some joker started casting this spell.)


Well, again, I never said you can't use it to make millions, I just said it's not quite that simple to do so.

Invisibility Superior also makes you immune to most sensors, so that's not really adding anything new to the equation, That's still why anyone with power armor has psionics or mages to screen for this kind of thing. So it's no easier or harder than it was before. Plus some random dude with a multi-optics helmet gets a save and if he saves then he can see you with the thermal juust fine. If your trump card can be canceled out by some of the most common gear in the game...yea, don't expect it to be TOO useful.


That isn’t how Invisibility to Sensors works at all, actually. The “Save” ONLY applies if you are still optically VISIBLE, and ONLY applies to seeing you with bare optics. If you layer Invis Lesser or Superior with Invis to Sensors, they never get a save of any kind, as they cant see you visibly anyway. Period.

Quote:
You also forget that the combat mage is a very uncommon school of magic


No it isnt. There’s a school that teaches it at Merctown, and one in Arzno.

Quote:
and most don't know it at all, those that exist will not be too eager to share their new discoveries.


Theyll literally teach anyone with the money that wants to learn.

Quote:
((I mean if it's really worth millions, why should they give it to YOU for anything less than tens of millions?)). The entire school is all but forgotton, it's unlikely your character knows the spell even exists to seek it out.


So forgotten they advertise publicly and teach anyone who has the money to pay for the classes.

Im not sure where you got any idea that it was rare/hard to find/a secret. The INCREDIBLY poorly written fluff states that the reason “most” spellcasters “dont use it” is because it is considered “primitive and barbaric” and “beneath them”, which is, quite honestly, absolute horse-shtie.

Quote:
I still think it is balanced and your GM is just not very good at playing Technological fractions well. How easy it is to sneak up on a lone power armor is not very relevent because in setting there should be no such thing as a lone power armor to sneak up on unless you go to a lot of trouble to set it up, and at that point you have to do a lot of work to make the spell useful, so it's balanced.

Multi-Optics helmets.


Do not work against Superior Invisibility, and dont work against Invisibility to Sensors like you think they do.

Quote:
Laser Desginators. If your mage has Psionics, you forget the CS has a Psionic-Radar that will automatically detect psychics up to 400 feet in any direction.


Where is that listed? Ive literally never seen that.

Also, Mystic Invisibility, another gem of Combat Magic. And since its a sensor, Invisibility to Sensors would still defeat it.

Quote:
And the good Dog boys/Psi-Stalkers/Random Psionics who can just see the invisibile.


Uhh... im not aware that Dog Boys or Psi-stalkers just naturally see the invisible, and.. Mystic Invisibility is still a thing.

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It's possible to use this spell to make millions, but there's enough tech to counter that I don't think it's overwhelming.

Now I will grant the spell could be less powerful without being too weak, but balance is not exactly even, some swing higher or lower, and there are other spells I'd consider more deserving of the unbalanced slot.


Now, FWIW, i dont see how this spell makes you Millions

So you.. you EMP his power armor. He just sits there.

Your choice is now to slag the PA, or... when he can turn it back on, he does.

So, it can score you easy KILLS, but it doesnt make the Power Armor just fall off the guy onto the ground. So you EMP the guy. OK. He just refuses to get out of his armor.

The only thing you can do about that is kill him. Which will destroy the armor.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:39 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:56 pm
Posts: 147
Comment: War to the knife, knife to the hilt.
Quote:
The only thing you can do about that is kill him. Which will destroy the armor.


Nah, you just have to do the hard part, which is opening up said armor, robot, whatever, and "remove" the occupant.

Which will probably require either a friend who's a computer hacking genius, a phase weapon, or the use of temporal magic (unless the GM is of the opinion that there isn't enough room inside the armor for a temporal caster to phase a regular SDC grenade inside, in which case he's just looking for ways to prevent you from "salvaging" armor and vehicles ;) If that's the case he probably won't let you get away with using the space and time teleport spell to send the armor 5 minutes into the future, either.... ). Or some type of mind control, that would probably work too.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:41 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm
Posts: 4376
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You have to get HOW close to a glitter boy to do it?



Close enough to speak into the barrel of the boom gun.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:00 am
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Posts: 15365
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Godslayer wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
That makes it balanced. the OP was saying it was too easy and overpowered. Just it's not as simple as invisibility-fly-electromagnetic-win. We're saying it's possible but difficult. Not that you can't do it.


Lots of good points here. I wasn't trying to make a serious argument that it's an automatic I-Win attack for Mages, but I'll continue to argue that it's not balanced.

Worse however, is I just don't think the spell makes any sense. I think it's been well established that EMP doesn't knock out Megadamage Power armor. The one exception is the CS Navy book where it give a full blown Nuke a 25% chance of frying Power Armor. (But that too is ridiculousness).

Hardened Power Armor is at best going to get turned off by an EMP blast. Meaning the pilot just has to hit the power button again. If you were driving a car, you'd just have to turn the key again. I doubt even that. But I get it. It's a common Sci-Fi myth.

And let's not forget that this same books makes it pretty easy for a Mage to sneak up on people in Power Armor now. Invisibility to Sensors combined with normal Invisibility make the Mage nearly undetectable.

Bottom line: If you can't find ways to abuse this spell and make millions, you're just a bad mage. (Also, I'd be pretty pissed if I made a Super with Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse, then some joker started casting this spell.)


Well, again, I never said you can't use it to make millions, I just said it's not quite that simple to do so.

Invisibility Superior also makes you immune to most sensors, so that's not really adding anything new to the equation, That's still why anyone with power armor has psionics or mages to screen for this kind of thing. So it's no easier or harder than it was before. Plus some random dude with a multi-optics helmet gets a save and if he saves then he can see you with the thermal juust fine. If your trump card can be canceled out by some of the most common gear in the game...yea, don't expect it to be TOO useful.


That isn’t how Invisibility to Sensors works at all, actually. The “Save” ONLY applies if you are still optically VISIBLE, and ONLY applies to seeing you with bare optics. If you layer Invis Lesser or Superior with Invis to Sensors, they never get a save of any kind, as they cant see you visibly anyway. Period.


Reading the spell closer, I think I see what your saying, but the problem is the spell doesn't make any sense at all if read that way. Invisibility to Sensors doesn't make you invisible normally, so if you had to make a save vs. magic only if you were staring at them through nightvision goggles, succeed, and now can see them through your normal vision, that is...exactly the same as failing, because you could do that anyway. Sinse it makes no sense for the effect of succeeding a save vs. magic to be the same as failing it, one must presume the spell was merely poorly written, else why have an extra paragraph about a save that does nothing at all if you pass it? You can already see someone invisible to sensors with eyes, it says so, so having to pass a save vs. magic to see someone with natural vision is nonsensical. How exactly do you think the save works?

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You also forget that the combat mage is a very uncommon school of magic


No it isnt. There’s a school that teaches it at Merctown, and one in Arzno.

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and most don't know it at all, those that exist will not be too eager to share their new discoveries.


Theyll literally teach anyone with the money that wants to learn.

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((I mean if it's really worth millions, why should they give it to YOU for anything less than tens of millions?)). The entire school is all but forgotton, it's unlikely your character knows the spell even exists to seek it out.


So forgotten they advertise publicly and teach anyone who has the money to pay for the classes.

Im not sure where you got any idea that it was rare/hard to find/a secret. The INCREDIBLY poorly written fluff states that the reason “most” spellcasters “dont use it” is because it is considered “primitive and barbaric” and “beneath them”, which is, quite honestly, absolute horse-shtie.


The introduction to Combat Magic says it is, and I quote, "All but forgotton". The fact that a mere two schools exist that still teach to the public in no way invalidates this, that could well be why it's almost-forgotton but not forgotton-forgotton. There's still a couple of places you can learn it. Like there's still a monestary or two that teaches some ancient martial art that most people look down on. Seems consistant to me.

As for the price, I was mostly using the price as a hypothetical argument against Godslayer's point: if EMP were that easy to make millions with, they'd charge millions for it, but they don't, so it probablly isn't that easy to make millions with it.

That said, the fluff says unequivoably that it's a relatively rare school of magic, so they should still get an extra cost the way summoning spells do. I don't actually have Arzno or Merctown to hand to check if they listed prices.

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I still think it is balanced and your GM is just not very good at playing Technological fractions well. How easy it is to sneak up on a lone power armor is not very relevent because in setting there should be no such thing as a lone power armor to sneak up on unless you go to a lot of trouble to set it up, and at that point you have to do a lot of work to make the spell useful, so it's balanced.

Multi-Optics helmets.


Do not work against Superior Invisibility, and dont work against Invisibility to Sensors like you think they do.


See above comment on Invis to Sensors, never said it would work on Invis superior.

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Laser Desginators. If your mage has Psionics, you forget the CS has a Psionic-Radar that will automatically detect psychics up to 400 feet in any direction.


Where is that listed? Ive literally never seen that.


The Psionic Radar? Psyscape Page 155, the Psi-Bloodhound Tracker. There's a whole section of psionic-focused technology the CS has that most people apparently skim over for some reason.

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Also, Mystic Invisibility, another gem of Combat Magic. And since its a sensor, Invisibility to Sensors would still defeat it.


And THIS is the spell I would say unequivocally is overpowered in combat magic. the SNARLS system in Japan is the only real counter to it and so far no one else has discovered it and they're too isolated for it to spread. But, Sure, Layer Mystic Invisibility with Invis Superior and you are basically undetectable. The only thing I can think of that would even have a chance is the Alarm Ward spell and i'm not certain if mystic invisibility will let you avoid tripping wards or not.

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And the good Dog boys/Psi-Stalkers/Random Psionics who can just see the invisibile.


Uhh... im not aware that Dog Boys or Psi-stalkers just naturally see the invisible, and.. Mystic Invisibility is still a thing.

Quote:
It's possible to use this spell to make millions, but there's enough tech to counter that I don't think it's overwhelming.

Now I will grant the spell could be less powerful without being too weak, but balance is not exactly even, some swing higher or lower, and there are other spells I'd consider more deserving of the unbalanced slot.


Now, FWIW, i dont see how this spell makes you Millions

So you.. you EMP his power armor. He just sits there.

Your choice is now to slag the PA, or... when he can turn it back on, he does.

So, it can score you easy KILLS, but it doesnt make the Power Armor just fall off the guy onto the ground. So you EMP the guy. OK. He just refuses to get out of his armor.

The only thing you can do about that is kill him. Which will destroy the armor.


Another reason I said that making millions with this spell wouldn't be easy: even if EMP goes off, your job still isn't done. I wasn't litterally saying they cost millions, I was using the fact they don't as an argument against someone else's point.

also, killing someone in power armor isn't impossible, though it can be a bit time consuming sinse weapons and abilities that damage through armor are pretty rare. But there are options.

1, lets think of this from a design standpoint. if someone has a heart attack while in power armor (and that will happen from time to time, combat is rather stressful), how do their friends get them out without ruining a very expensive peice of equipment? Obviously, there has to be some way to just open it from the outside without help from the inside. This is generally considered impossible to do in combat, but simply restraining the armor and hauling it back to base (you did have some plan for carrying it with you, yes?) can give you plenty of time. You might have to disable it's weapons and use some restraints intended for supernatural beings and/or break or disable flight, but if you can't render an immobile opponent helpless you didn't really plan the heist out fully. True this means you'd have to repair damage before reselling it but you can keep that damage relatively minor if you work it out ahead of time.

1.5: Actually, just keep casting Escape on the power armor until you've got it completely unlocked and can just yank the guy out. One locking mechanism per casting!

2, Dominate is one of the few mind control spells that do work on people in power armor. The range is Touch or 4 feet, so if your that close, you can dominate them and force them to get out.

3, Weapons that damage through power armor are rare but not non-existant. Ditto with magic. Life Drain is a good one against power armor.

4: Laser Torches. Just cut the hatch open. Easy to repair and relatively fast.

5: My personal favorite, Gravity! Just levitate/grab-and-fly the now motionless power armor hundreds of feet in the air and let the fall damage kill the occupant inside. Repeat if necessary. May require comboing Superhuman Strength with Fly as the Eagle. Air Warlocks are best at this as the Air Warlock version has a much higher ceiling, much higher weight cap and no saving throw allowed, period. Heck, they can do it to power armor that hasn't been disabled if it's a ground pounder that can't fly.

1 and 4 assumes you've already won the fight and his friends are all dead or retreated, I don't recommend trying to disable/crack open a PA shell during combat.

EDIT: Amusing i'm now arguing for ways you CAN do it, but I never said it was impossible, just difficult, and this is another difficulty. You can just you have to make plans for every little detail including things like this.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:04 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5347
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
The Psionic Radar? Psyscape Page 155, the Psi-Bloodhound Tracker. There's a whole section of psionic-focused technology the CS has that most people apparently skim over for some reason.

That's a Techno-Wizard device, if the CS do use it, they do so on the downlow.

The "CS Psi-Scanner" has a pathetic 4 foot (48 inch) range compared to the 400ft of the Techno-Wizard device.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:49 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7131
frankly, so far as i'm concerned, the various "invisibility" spells in combat magic are the overpowered spells. as i said earlier, magic has always been able to severely disable someone at close range. whether that comes from a magic EMP or magical fly paper or webs or blinding them into uselessness or mind controlling them into helplessness or other factors is really not particularly relevant.

to show how true that is, consider... a ley line walker is able to learn one combat magic spell. if they choose EMP, they're very slightly better off than before against power armour, but no better against anything non-mechanical, and they still have the exact same problem they always had; getting in range to take it out. if they instead take invisibility to sensors, they don't have EMP, but they do have the ability to get into range for the other disabling spells that they have to work just fine much more easily. likewise if they take mystic invisibility. if they could take 2 combat magic spells, they should still take both invisibility types and ignore EMP entirely.

EMP is a good spell; i'm not saying it isn't. but it isn't the problem spell. it is easy to replace it with something else, and have essentially the same outcome. you can't say that for the invisibility spells.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:29 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Posts: 15365
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Axelmania wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
The Psionic Radar? Psyscape Page 155, the Psi-Bloodhound Tracker. There's a whole section of psionic-focused technology the CS has that most people apparently skim over for some reason.

That's a Techno-Wizard device, if the CS do use it, they do so on the downlow.

The "CS Psi-Scanner" has a pathetic 4 foot (48 inch) range compared to the 400ft of the Techno-Wizard device.


Huh! I apparently had my eyes play tricks on me

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:14 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1900
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Reading the spell closer, I think I see what your saying, but the problem is the spell doesn't make any sense at all if read that way. Invisibility to Sensors doesn't make you invisible normally, so if you had to make a save vs. magic only if you were staring at them through nightvision goggles, succeed, and now can see them through your normal vision, that is...exactly the same as failing, because you could do that anyway. Sinse it makes no sense for the effect of succeeding a save vs. magic to be the same as failing it, one must presume the spell was merely poorly written, else why have an extra paragraph about a save that does nothing at all if you pass it? You can already see someone invisible to sensors with eyes, it says so, so having to pass a save vs. magic to see someone with natural vision is nonsensical. How exactly do you think the save works?


You're misreading the spell. Ill put the whole description here for clarity (but not the PPE cost, etc)

Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
Invisibility to Sensors: This spell magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightvision optics, motion sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared b eams, etc, will not detect the character thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.

There is no saving throw against this spell unless an organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves


It is... oddly worded, but what it is clearly saying is:

The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye. If they are also invisible in any way optically, this wont even work, as they simply aren't visible.

If a security camera is monitored by an AI, it will pick up nothing, no matter what (no save), but if a guy is sitting in a security booth, and looking at the display from the camera, and he saves, HE can see the still-optically-visible mage. But if the camera also has thermal, infrared, etc, the mage WONT register on those.

This spell, paired with Simple Invisibility, (since that renders you optically invisible and does NOT break on combat), is crazy good.

Mind, i find Combat Magic in general to be some of the most potent spells released for Rifts Earth. Almost all of them are way better than any similar spell of the same level from "regular" Incantation Magic.

Quote:
The introduction to Combat Magic says it is, and I quote, "All but forgotton". The fact that a mere two schools exist that still teach to the public in no way invalidates this, that could well be why it's almost-forgotton but not forgotton-forgotton. There's still a couple of places you can learn it. Like there's still a monestary or two that teaches some ancient martial art that most people look down on. Seems consistant to me.


Problem with your theory is that having a school who will literally teach ANYONE makes it FAR more common/easier to access than other types of magic. AFAIK, there are NO open schools for LLW, Shifter, TW, etc. Not one. (Maybe Dweomer? Ill have to check, i haven't had to re-read Fed of Magic in quite a while). And its not a super-secret "guild" like the ones in Kingsdale, Lazlo, etc, that make you jump through hoops to join and only teach a few spells when you do them favors. Its literally available to any schlub off the street. What we have here is an older publication stating something, and a later publication overriding it. Merc Adventures says its "all but forgotten", but then Merctown says "there is a school here of this magic and you can pay them to learn it". Its not like its the first, second, third, or twentieth time a later book has made a previous book incorrect.

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As for the price, I was mostly using the price as a hypothetical argument against Godslayer's point: if EMP were that easy to make millions with, they'd charge millions for it, but they don't, so it probablly isn't that easy to make millions with it.

That said, the fluff says unequivoably that it's a relatively rare school of magic, so they should still get an extra cost the way summoning spells do. I don't actually have Arzno or Merctown to hand to check if they listed prices.


They do not list prices AFAIK.


Quote:
And THIS is the spell I would say unequivocally is overpowered in combat magic. the SNARLS system in Japan is the only real counter to it and so far no one else has discovered it and they're too isolated for it to spread. But, Sure, Layer Mystic Invisibility with Invis Superior and you are basically undetectable. The only thing I can think of that would even have a chance is the Alarm Ward spell and i'm not certain if mystic invisibility will let you avoid tripping wards or not.


I agree. Mystic Invis is amazingly good. Pair it with Invis to Sensors and even the SNARLS system wouldn't work on you. Its probably (IMO) the second or third best Combat Magic spell there is. (I think Fighting Spirit and Superhuman Agility are the top two, with Blast Shield coming in at number 4 (Oh, you want to hit me with that LRM? Blast Shield, LOL. Oh, a barrage of 100LRMs? LOLOLOLOL.))

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Another reason I said that making millions with this spell wouldn't be easy: even if EMP goes off, your job still isn't done. I wasn't litterally saying they cost millions, I was using the fact they don't as an argument against someone else's point.

also, killing someone in power armor isn't impossible, though it can be a bit time consuming sinse weapons and abilities that damage through armor are pretty rare. But there are options.

1, lets think of this from a design standpoint. if someone has a heart attack while in power armor (and that will happen from time to time, combat is rather stressful), how do their friends get them out without ruining a very expensive peice of equipment?


Well, if its adventurers/mercs, they know the code to get him out. If its the CS, the Technical Officers and maybe the medics know the code(s) to get them out.

Quote:
Obviously, there has to be some way to just open it from the outside without help from the inside. This is generally considered impossible to do in combat, but simply restraining the armor and hauling it back to base (you did have some plan for carrying it with you, yes?) can give you plenty of time. You might have to disable it's weapons and use some restraints intended for supernatural beings and/or break or disable flight, but if you can't render an immobile opponent helpless you didn't really plan the heist out fully. True this means you'd have to repair damage before reselling it but you can keep that damage relatively minor if you work it out ahead of time.

1.5: Actually, just keep casting Escape on the power armor until you've got it completely unlocked and can just yank the guy out. One locking mechanism per casting!

2, Dominate is one of the few mind control spells that do work on people in power armor. The range is Touch or 4 feet, so if your that close, you can dominate them and force them to get out.

3, Weapons that damage through power armor are rare but not non-existant. Ditto with magic. Life Drain is a good one against power armor.

4: Laser Torches. Just cut the hatch open. Easy to repair and relatively fast.


Most PAs dont have a "hatch". Theyre form-fitting armor. Only a few (Ulti-Max, Samson, Glitter Boy, GBK, Terror Trooper) are "piloted" - most of the rest are form-fitting or near enough. Most of these will

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5: My personal favorite, Gravity! Just levitate/grab-and-fly the now motionless power armor hundreds of feet in the air and let the fall damage kill the occupant inside. Repeat if necessary. May require comboing Superhuman Strength with Fly as the Eagle. Air Warlocks are best at this as the Air Warlock version has a much higher ceiling, much higher weight cap and no saving throw allowed, period. Heck, they can do it to power armor that hasn't been disabled if it's a ground pounder that can't fly.

1 and 4 assumes you've already won the fight and his friends are all dead or retreated, I don't recommend trying to disable/crack open a PA shell during combat.

EDIT: Amusing i'm now arguing for ways you CAN do it, but I never said it was impossible, just difficult, and this is another difficulty. You can just you have to make plans for every little detail including things like this.


Most of these ways would work, its just.. more effort than it is worth.

Remember that the Black Market doesn't give anything near full price. They give 10% on PA. So, if its in perfect working order... most PA is worth about 100-300k. Only the super-rare types like GBs are worth much.

You're better off ambushing a Mark V. That's still worth some serious coin if you take it intact.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:36 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Posts: 15365
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Reading the spell closer, I think I see what your saying, but the problem is the spell doesn't make any sense at all if read that way. Invisibility to Sensors doesn't make you invisible normally, so if you had to make a save vs. magic only if you were staring at them through nightvision goggles, succeed, and now can see them through your normal vision, that is...exactly the same as failing, because you could do that anyway. Sinse it makes no sense for the effect of succeeding a save vs. magic to be the same as failing it, one must presume the spell was merely poorly written, else why have an extra paragraph about a save that does nothing at all if you pass it? You can already see someone invisible to sensors with eyes, it says so, so having to pass a save vs. magic to see someone with natural vision is nonsensical. How exactly do you think the save works?


You're misreading the spell. Ill put the whole description here for clarity (but not the PPE cost, etc)

Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
Invisibility to Sensors: This spell magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightvision optics, motion sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared b eams, etc, will not detect the character thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.

There is no saving throw against this spell unless an organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves


It is... oddly worded, but what it is clearly saying is:

The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye. If they are also invisible in any way optically, this wont even work, as they simply aren't visible.

If a security camera is monitored by an AI, it will pick up nothing, no matter what (no save), but if a guy is sitting in a security booth, and looking at the display from the camera, and he saves, HE can see the still-optically-visible mage. But if the camera also has thermal, infrared, etc, the mage WONT register on those.


Right. but look at the line right above it

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However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.


That's by default. The spell ONLY renders you invisible to sensors. You can see with the naked eye. and now you are saying

Quote:
The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye.


But he can do that without saving! The goggles do nothing in this scenario! He can already see with his unaided eye if he doesn't save vs. magic. he can see them if he FAILS his save vs. magic. The save vs. magic does nothing because he can already see with the unaided eye without saving!



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This spell, paired with Simple Invisibility, (since that renders you optically invisible and does NOT break on combat), is crazy good.

Mind, i find Combat Magic in general to be some of the most potent spells released for Rifts Earth. Almost all of them are way better than any similar spell of the same level from "regular" Incantation Magic.


Gee, the school of spells called "Combat magic" are some of the most potent spells for combat in the game? ya don't say...

Quote:
Quote:
The introduction to Combat Magic says it is, and I quote, "All but forgotton". The fact that a mere two schools exist that still teach to the public in no way invalidates this, that could well be why it's almost-forgotton but not forgotton-forgotton. There's still a couple of places you can learn it. Like there's still a monestary or two that teaches some ancient martial art that most people look down on. Seems consistant to me.


Problem with your theory is that having a school who will literally teach ANYONE makes it FAR more common/easier to access than other types of magic. AFAIK, there are NO open schools for LLW, Shifter, TW, etc. Not one. (Maybe Dweomer? Ill have to check, i haven't had to re-read Fed of Magic in quite a while). And its not a super-secret "guild" like the ones in Kingsdale, Lazlo, etc, that make you jump through hoops to join and only teach a few spells when you do them favors. Its literally available to any schlub off the street. What we have here is an older publication stating something, and a later publication overriding it. Merc Adventures says its "all but forgotten", but then Merctown says "there is a school here of this magic and you can pay them to learn it". Its not like its the first, second, third, or twentieth time a later book has made a previous book incorrect.


Except there is no contradiction. The fact they are open to the general public in no way means it's common throughout North America. It just means it is available for learning. Heck, you could read that the other way around: Most guilds are closed, but Combat Magic is so desperate for students they'll take anyone willing to give them money. Which means...not many are learning. Not saying that necessarily IS the case, just that that's one way to read it.

Just because IF your character goes to one of those places, and IF he hears about it while there, and IF he wants to, then yes, it's possible to learn it. but none of those things are in any way certain, especially as travel is still not the safest thing in Rifts Earth. I'm not talking about weather or not YOUR character can learn it. I'm talking the fact that the books state quite firmly that they're rare and most mages snub them, and pointing to two schools open to the public in no way invlidates or even contradicts it. There are a lot of crummy for-profit schools open to the public on "rare" subjects: if people arn't interested, that's their problem.

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As for the price, I was mostly using the price as a hypothetical argument against Godslayer's point: if EMP were that easy to make millions with, they'd charge millions for it, but they don't, so it probablly isn't that easy to make millions with it.

That said, the fluff says unequivoably that it's a relatively rare school of magic, so they should still get an extra cost the way summoning spells do. I don't actually have Arzno or Merctown to hand to check if they listed prices.


They do not list prices AFAIK.


Quote:
And THIS is the spell I would say unequivocally is overpowered in combat magic. the SNARLS system in Japan is the only real counter to it and so far no one else has discovered it and they're too isolated for it to spread. But, Sure, Layer Mystic Invisibility with Invis Superior and you are basically undetectable. The only thing I can think of that would even have a chance is the Alarm Ward spell and i'm not certain if mystic invisibility will let you avoid tripping wards or not.


I agree. Mystic Invis is amazingly good. Pair it with Invis to Sensors and even the SNARLS system wouldn't work on you. Its probably (IMO) the second or third best Combat Magic spell there is. (I think Fighting Spirit and Superhuman Agility are the top two, with Blast Shield coming in at number 4 (Oh, you want to hit me with that LRM? Blast Shield, LOL. Oh, a barrage of 100LRMs? LOLOLOLOL.))

Quote:
Another reason I said that making millions with this spell wouldn't be easy: even if EMP goes off, your job still isn't done. I wasn't litterally saying they cost millions, I was using the fact they don't as an argument against someone else's point.

also, killing someone in power armor isn't impossible, though it can be a bit time consuming sinse weapons and abilities that damage through armor are pretty rare. But there are options.

1, lets think of this from a design standpoint. if someone has a heart attack while in power armor (and that will happen from time to time, combat is rather stressful), how do their friends get them out without ruining a very expensive peice of equipment?


Well, if its adventurers/mercs, they know the code to get him out. If its the CS, the Technical Officers and maybe the medics know the code(s) to get them out.

Quote:
Obviously, there has to be some way to just open it from the outside without help from the inside. This is generally considered impossible to do in combat, but simply restraining the armor and hauling it back to base (you did have some plan for carrying it with you, yes?) can give you plenty of time. You might have to disable it's weapons and use some restraints intended for supernatural beings and/or break or disable flight, but if you can't render an immobile opponent helpless you didn't really plan the heist out fully. True this means you'd have to repair damage before reselling it but you can keep that damage relatively minor if you work it out ahead of time.

1.5: Actually, just keep casting Escape on the power armor until you've got it completely unlocked and can just yank the guy out. One locking mechanism per casting!

2, Dominate is one of the few mind control spells that do work on people in power armor. The range is Touch or 4 feet, so if your that close, you can dominate them and force them to get out.

3, Weapons that damage through power armor are rare but not non-existant. Ditto with magic. Life Drain is a good one against power armor.

4: Laser Torches. Just cut the hatch open. Easy to repair and relatively fast.


Most PAs dont have a "hatch". Theyre form-fitting armor. Only a few (Ulti-Max, Samson, Glitter Boy, GBK, Terror Trooper) are "piloted" - most of the rest are form-fitting or near enough. Most of these will

Quote:
5: My personal favorite, Gravity! Just levitate/grab-and-fly the now motionless power armor hundreds of feet in the air and let the fall damage kill the occupant inside. Repeat if necessary. May require comboing Superhuman Strength with Fly as the Eagle. Air Warlocks are best at this as the Air Warlock version has a much higher ceiling, much higher weight cap and no saving throw allowed, period. Heck, they can do it to power armor that hasn't been disabled if it's a ground pounder that can't fly.

1 and 4 assumes you've already won the fight and his friends are all dead or retreated, I don't recommend trying to disable/crack open a PA shell during combat.

EDIT: Amusing i'm now arguing for ways you CAN do it, but I never said it was impossible, just difficult, and this is another difficulty. You can just you have to make plans for every little detail including things like this.


Most of these ways would work, its just.. more effort than it is worth.

Remember that the Black Market doesn't give anything near full price. They give 10% on PA. So, if its in perfect working order... most PA is worth about 100-300k. Only the super-rare types like GBs are worth much.

You're better off ambushing a Mark V. That's still worth some serious coin if you take it intact.


I think we can just agree here on these points, neither of us think it's impossible, just impractical.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:49 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1900
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Reading the spell closer, I think I see what your saying, but the problem is the spell doesn't make any sense at all if read that way. Invisibility to Sensors doesn't make you invisible normally, so if you had to make a save vs. magic only if you were staring at them through nightvision goggles, succeed, and now can see them through your normal vision, that is...exactly the same as failing, because you could do that anyway. Sinse it makes no sense for the effect of succeeding a save vs. magic to be the same as failing it, one must presume the spell was merely poorly written, else why have an extra paragraph about a save that does nothing at all if you pass it? You can already see someone invisible to sensors with eyes, it says so, so having to pass a save vs. magic to see someone with natural vision is nonsensical. How exactly do you think the save works?


You're misreading the spell. Ill put the whole description here for clarity (but not the PPE cost, etc)

Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
Invisibility to Sensors: This spell magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightvision optics, motion sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared b eams, etc, will not detect the character thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.

There is no saving throw against this spell unless an organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves


It is... oddly worded, but what it is clearly saying is:

The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye. If they are also invisible in any way optically, this wont even work, as they simply aren't visible.

If a security camera is monitored by an AI, it will pick up nothing, no matter what (no save), but if a guy is sitting in a security booth, and looking at the display from the camera, and he saves, HE can see the still-optically-visible mage. But if the camera also has thermal, infrared, etc, the mage WONT register on those.


Right. but look at the line right above it

Quote:
However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.


That's by default. The spell ONLY renders you invisible to sensors. You can see with the naked eye. and now you are saying

Quote:
The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye.


But he can do that without saving! The goggles do nothing in this scenario! He can already see with his unaided eye if he doesn't save vs. magic. he can see them if he FAILS his save vs. magic. The save vs. magic does nothing because he can already see with the unaided eye without saving!


He loses any bonus the goggles might get him without the save, though. He's just using his Mark 1 Eyeball.

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This spell, paired with Simple Invisibility, (since that renders you optically invisible and does NOT break on combat), is crazy good.

Mind, i find Combat Magic in general to be some of the most potent spells released for Rifts Earth. Almost all of them are way better than any similar spell of the same level from "regular" Incantation Magic.


Gee, the school of spells called "Combat magic" are some of the most potent spells for combat in the game? ya don't say...


Im not even talking about for Combat. They make great spells for other things, too. The two Invisibility spells are great for AVOIDING combat, really. You can supercharge your vehicle, too. There's all sorts of neat stuff kicking around. The PPE costs are usually quite low as well.

It wasn't well thought out or particularly well balanced, IMO, but its not super-duper-broken either.

But the fluff is just insanely dumb writing - "people dont use it because they think it is old and primitive", when anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that they are categorically better than near-equivalent "regular" spells is just stupid. Compare Magical Adrenal Rush with Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit is CLEARLY the better spell. And cheaper. With no drawbacks. (However, you can stack them for truly stupendous results - 8-10 attacks per round, lots of bonuses, etc.. as a mage).

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:07 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Reading the spell closer, I think I see what your saying, but the problem is the spell doesn't make any sense at all if read that way. Invisibility to Sensors doesn't make you invisible normally, so if you had to make a save vs. magic only if you were staring at them through nightvision goggles, succeed, and now can see them through your normal vision, that is...exactly the same as failing, because you could do that anyway. Sinse it makes no sense for the effect of succeeding a save vs. magic to be the same as failing it, one must presume the spell was merely poorly written, else why have an extra paragraph about a save that does nothing at all if you pass it? You can already see someone invisible to sensors with eyes, it says so, so having to pass a save vs. magic to see someone with natural vision is nonsensical. How exactly do you think the save works?


You're misreading the spell. Ill put the whole description here for clarity (but not the PPE cost, etc)

Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
Invisibility to Sensors: This spell magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightvision optics, motion sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared b eams, etc, will not detect the character thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.

There is no saving throw against this spell unless an organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves


It is... oddly worded, but what it is clearly saying is:

The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye. If they are also invisible in any way optically, this wont even work, as they simply aren't visible.

If a security camera is monitored by an AI, it will pick up nothing, no matter what (no save), but if a guy is sitting in a security booth, and looking at the display from the camera, and he saves, HE can see the still-optically-visible mage. But if the camera also has thermal, infrared, etc, the mage WONT register on those.


Right. but look at the line right above it

Quote:
However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.


That's by default. The spell ONLY renders you invisible to sensors. You can see with the naked eye. and now you are saying

Quote:
The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye.


But he can do that without saving! The goggles do nothing in this scenario! He can already see with his unaided eye if he doesn't save vs. magic. he can see them if he FAILS his save vs. magic. The save vs. magic does nothing because he can already see with the unaided eye without saving!


He loses any bonus the goggles might get him without the save, though. He's just using his Mark 1 Eyeball.


Again, how is that any different from what he'd get if he didn't save vs. the spell, or didn't have the goggles? what does the save do in your version that not saving wouldn't also allow them to do?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This spell, paired with Simple Invisibility, (since that renders you optically invisible and does NOT break on combat), is crazy good.

Mind, i find Combat Magic in general to be some of the most potent spells released for Rifts Earth. Almost all of them are way better than any similar spell of the same level from "regular" Incantation Magic.


Gee, the school of spells called "Combat magic" are some of the most potent spells for combat in the game? ya don't say...


Im not even talking about for Combat. They make great spells for other things, too. The two Invisibility spells are great for AVOIDING combat, really. You can supercharge your vehicle, too. There's all sorts of neat stuff kicking around. The PPE costs are usually quite low as well.

It wasn't well thought out or particularly well balanced, IMO, but its not super-duper-broken either.

But the fluff is just insanely dumb writing - "people dont use it because they think it is old and primitive", when anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that they are categorically better than near-equivalent "regular" spells is just stupid. Compare Magical Adrenal Rush with Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit is CLEARLY the better spell. And cheaper. With no drawbacks. (However, you can stack them for truly stupendous results - 8-10 attacks per round, lots of bonuses, etc.. as a mage).


The spells are not very well written either, given how much disagreement we're having on one spell and the vaugeness in some others. However just because the spells are good doesn't mean they're common. If they're rare because writers fiat says they're rare, then writers fiat means they're rare. It doesn't stop being true just because you think it'd be more common given how good they are. Just means you might want to houserule it in your game.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:06 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
But the fluff is just insanely dumb writing - "people dont use it because they think it is old and primitive", when anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that they are categorically better than near-equivalent "regular" spells is just stupid. Compare Magical Adrenal Rush with Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit is CLEARLY the better spell. And cheaper. With no drawbacks. (However, you can stack them for truly stupendous results - 8-10 attacks per round, lots of bonuses, etc.. as a mage).


The spells are not very well written either, given how much disagreement we're having on one spell and the vaugeness in some others. However just because the spells are good doesn't mean they're common. If they're rare because writers fiat says they're rare, then writers fiat means they're rare. It doesn't stop being true just because you think it'd be more common given how good they are. Just means you might want to houserule it in your game.

The problem is that it isn't rare. It is quite COMMON with entire schools dedicated to teaching it.
Just that we are told in the BoM that all mages (yes, including techno-wizards!) automatically hate technology and refuse to use it put to the point where they would all rather just die in every fight in the game than use guns and armor... that mages simply refuse to use these spells because they are 'crude' and 'primitive'.
Basically the absolute, flat out, worst form of writing possible where you TELL other people "No, this is how you WILL play your character because this narrow view is the One True Way that you must play or you are Doing It Wrong"
It is basically "Doh, I wrote this awesome magic, but I only want my pet class to cast it. But instead of making it a restricted school I'm going to say that other mages are all idiots that are to stupid to use magic properly unless they are one of my awesome mary sue soldier types who are the only people smart enough to fight magic wars and not any of the temporal warriors, or battle magus, or mystic knights or warlock marines or..."

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Edmund Burke wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:36 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
No it isnt. There’s a school that teaches it at Merctown, and one in Arzno.


Can you give a page reference for the Arzno school?

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Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:37 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
eliakon wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
But the fluff is just insanely dumb writing - "people dont use it because they think it is old and primitive", when anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that they are categorically better than near-equivalent "regular" spells is just stupid. Compare Magical Adrenal Rush with Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit is CLEARLY the better spell. And cheaper. With no drawbacks. (However, you can stack them for truly stupendous results - 8-10 attacks per round, lots of bonuses, etc.. as a mage).


The spells are not very well written either, given how much disagreement we're having on one spell and the vaugeness in some others. However just because the spells are good doesn't mean they're common. If they're rare because writers fiat says they're rare, then writers fiat means they're rare. It doesn't stop being true just because you think it'd be more common given how good they are. Just means you might want to houserule it in your game.

The problem is that it isn't rare. It is quite COMMON with entire schools dedicated to teaching it.
Just that we are told in the BoM that all mages (yes, including techno-wizards!) automatically hate technology and refuse to use it put to the point where they would all rather just die in every fight in the game than use guns and armor... that mages simply refuse to use these spells because they are 'crude' and 'primitive'.
Basically the absolute, flat out, worst form of writing possible where you TELL other people "No, this is how you WILL play your character because this narrow view is the One True Way that you must play or you are Doing It Wrong"
It is basically "Doh, I wrote this awesome magic, but I only want my pet class to cast it. But instead of making it a restricted school I'm going to say that other mages are all idiots that are to stupid to use magic properly unless they are one of my awesome mary sue soldier types who are the only people smart enough to fight magic wars and not any of the temporal warriors, or battle magus, or mystic knights or warlock marines or..."


I'm not saying anyone has to play a snob that refuses to learn Combat magic. That's always up to the player of the character. I'm saying in setting it's rare.

Also "Schools that teach it prove it's not rare" is kind of not how that works. the school of magic exists. That there are schools that don't exclusively teach to combat mages is why other classes CAN learn them, rather than something by apprentiship only like Temporal magic. That only means there are two schools that teach a rare magic. That is the only thing it means. They're not huge schools, remember this is Rifts, classical universities don't really exist, we'd be talking a building with a few teachers and a class size of a few dozen at most, not a sprawling campus training tens of thousands of combat mages.

Not saying it's good writing, i'm just saying how the setting works. If you want to play a character who isn't too good for them, feel free, i'm just saying you playing a character who learns them doesn't make it not rare.

EDIT: Much like Mack, I couldn't actually find a reference in Arzno to it etiher, which could mean only one school known to teach it, even more rare.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:52 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Actually, where does it say in Merc Town there's a school that teaches combat magic there? I can find a mage guild that teaches magic, but it's membership is not free and they don't teach to non-members, and it doesn't list combat magic as one available.

Where is it? because it looks to me there are 0 schools that teach combat magic.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:22 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Actually, where does it say in Merc Town there's a school that teaches combat magic there? I can find a mage guild that teaches magic, but it's membership is not free and they don't teach to non-members, and it doesn't list combat magic as one available.

Where is it? because it looks to me there are 0 schools that teach combat magic.

Merc Adventures, p6. It's in the Combat Mage OCC description, though it speaks about a 2-year OCC internship and not about teaching individual spells to a mage off the street.

I can't find the Arzno reference.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:28 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1900
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
Invisibility to Sensors: This spell magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightvision optics, motion sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared b eams, etc, will not detect the character thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.

There is no saving throw against this spell unless an organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves



Quote:
The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye.


But he can do that without saving! The goggles do nothing in this scenario! He can already see with his unaided eye if he doesn't save vs. magic. he can see them if he FAILS his save vs. magic. The save vs. magic does nothing because he can already see with the unaided eye without saving!


He loses any bonus the goggles might get him without the save, though. He's just using his Mark 1 Eyeball. [/quote]

Quote:
Again, how is that any different from what he'd get if he didn't save vs. the spell, or didn't have the goggles? what does the save do in your version that not saving wouldn't also allow them to do?


Nothing, which is dumb, because its a bad example of how the spell works.

Im 100% sure im correct though, because, as stated in the spell Description:

Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves


Its quite clear - "even if the person saves, the mage will not register on the goggles themselves. "

Its also not the best example they could have used. A better one would have been - if you're piloting something like a Giant Robot, where you DONT see out of the vehicle via a viewport (or even a Samson, Terror Trooper, or some of the other PAs where you dont actually wear it like armor) - you can have cameras on the outside of the vehicle to "see". These cameras usually (in addition to their "im a camera") have IR, Thermal, etc on them. But you can see him, if he's otherwise visible. However, if you would only have been able to "see" him because of one of the non-strictly-optical sensors (thermal, IR, what have you), then you WONT see him, at all. Only if he would have been visible to the naked eye.

In this situation, if you make the save, you can still see the guy, even though the camera is technically a sensor and shouldn't see him. But he WONT appear on the IR or Thermal sight.


Quote:
If they're rare because writers fiat says they're rare, then writers fiat means they're rare. It doesn't stop being true just because you think it'd be more common given how good they are. Just means you might want to houserule it in your game.


It absolutely does. I could fill this thread up with about a hundred examples of "Writers-fiat" statements being 100% false.

The books are CONSTANTLY contradicting each other and making statements that are provably false.

Mega Damage/MDC is rare (but over 40% of the population of NA has it).

Getting around North America/Rifts Earth is super hard and is lots of wandering around the wilderness (but vehicles from the RMB could literally cross the continent in 3 hours, and there are COMMERCIAL AIRPORTS with DAILY FLIGHTS)

The statement in the original writeup (and ill Agree with Eli here, its just horse-dung writing) of "people dont use it because of this completely nonsensical reason" is just false on its face. Its available in two public schools in two of the MOST common places that mercs visit! (MercTown and Arzno, with only NG/MI being left out).

Its just bad writing. Everyone has to deal with that in their game however they can, but i think the most reasonable course of action, and the one that most of us here probably take, is to admit that what the book is saying (writers fiat or no) is just wrong, and to adjust it to make sense.

Sure, as strictly written, it is, for some unknown, stupid, assinine reason, "rare and almost forgotten".

I'd never play in, or GM, a game where the writers fiat was the final say, because if you try to do that, the game literally cant be played and makes no sense on its face.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:36 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1900
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
EDIT: Much like Mack, I couldn't actually find a reference in Arzno to it etiher, which could mean only one school known to teach it, even more rare.


It isnt in the Arzno book. I dont remember where i saw it, but its in another book where it doesn't make much sense, in a passing line, like "they opened a school in Arzno".

Ill look for it, halfheartedly.

However, in response to your bolded...

if thats how you determine rare, then LLW magic should be just as rare, as there is a single school that teaches it - in Dweomer, a city to which you have to be specifically invited to even find.

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Last edited by Colonel_Tetsuya on Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:42 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1900
eliakon wrote:
Just that we are told in the BoM that all mages (yes, including techno-wizards!) automatically hate technology and refuse to use it put to the point where they would all rather just die in every fight in the game than use guns and armor... that mages simply refuse to use these spells because they are 'crude' and 'primitive'.
Basically the absolute, flat out, worst form of writing possible where you TELL other people "No, this is how you WILL play your character because this narrow view is the One True Way that you must play or you are Doing It Wrong"


This is one THE biggest issues i have with Palladium (and particularly Kevin's) writing.

The "ALL of the people who are this class are THIS WAY and if you do ANYTHING ELSE, you're doing it WRONG." nonsense.

The magic users gripe is a big one but there are plenty of other places where the same thinking is out there in print.

The whole "magic users use magic because they think it is superior to technology, period." thing in BoM (and hinted at/stated in other places too) is just... unbearably stupid writing.

You're basically saying that all magic users are delusional, insane, and so stupid they cant realize when using a technological device might be better than using magic.

Its just dumb.

Much like the "all mages wear dresses", "all TWs are stupid Aviator-obsessed idiots", etc.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:01 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
EDIT: Much like Mack, I couldn't actually find a reference in Arzno to it etiher, which could mean only one school known to teach it, even more rare.


It isnt in the Arzno book. I dont remember where i saw it, but its in another book where it doesn't make much sense, in a passing line, like "they opened a school in Arzno".

Ill look for it, halfheartedly.


It'd have to be a book with a catalog number greater than 868.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:11 pm
  

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Combat Magic is also known to Battle Magi and by some Mystic Knights (and thus one can safely assume the Knight of the White Rose as well).

Also, it says "most" combat magic is shunned, and says that a LLW is not likely to know more than a half-dozen spells.

It would be a safe bet that Superhuman Agility, Invisibility to Sensors, Fighting Spirit, and Mystic Invisibility are among the spells many LLWs would not shun.

Mega-damage Haymaker, on the other hand, is probably getting shunned.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:46 pm
  

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There's a lot of main book / fom / bom spells which seem just as shun-worthy as anything added in combat magic.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:28 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Quote:
Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
Invisibility to Sensors: This spell magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightvision optics, motion sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared b eams, etc, will not detect the character thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as to other magical or psionic viewing means.

There is no saving throw against this spell unless an organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves



Quote:
The nightvision aspect of the goggles does NOT pick up the mage, but if he saves, the guy who is looking through them can still see them with his unaided eye.


But he can do that without saving! The goggles do nothing in this scenario! He can already see with his unaided eye if he doesn't save vs. magic. he can see them if he FAILS his save vs. magic. The save vs. magic does nothing because he can already see with the unaided eye without saving!


He loses any bonus the goggles might get him without the save, though. He's just using his Mark 1 Eyeball.


Quote:
Again, how is that any different from what he'd get if he didn't save vs. the spell, or didn't have the goggles? what does the save do in your version that not saving wouldn't also allow them to do?


Nothing, which is dumb, because its a bad example of how the spell works.

Im 100% sure im correct though, because, as stated in the spell Description:

Mercenary Adventures, Page 15 wrote:
is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful, means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggles themselves


Its quite clear - "even if the person saves, the mage will not register on the goggles themselves. "

Its also not the best example they could have used. A better one would have been - if you're piloting something like a Giant Robot, where you DONT see out of the vehicle via a viewport (or even a Samson, Terror Trooper, or some of the other PAs where you dont actually wear it like armor) - you can have cameras on the outside of the vehicle to "see". These cameras usually (in addition to their "im a camera") have IR, Thermal, etc on them. But you can see him, if he's otherwise visible. However, if you would only have been able to "see" him because of one of the non-strictly-optical sensors (thermal, IR, what have you), then you WONT see him, at all. Only if he would have been visible to the naked eye.

In this situation, if you make the save, you can still see the guy, even though the camera is technically a sensor and shouldn't see him. But he WONT appear on the IR or Thermal sight.


So it's a regular looking dude appearing on thermal sight? That would be hilarious, and I personally doubt that's what it means. Though I grant, it is largely a case of the example as written is so stupid and conveluted I can't beleive it was actually intended to be read the way it was written. I'll grant you it DOES say that now that you point it out, but I am convinced something in it is a mistake, either the example or the effect. Oh well, YMMV.


Quote:
Quote:
If they're rare because writers fiat says they're rare, then writers fiat means they're rare. It doesn't stop being true just because you think it'd be more common given how good they are. Just means you might want to houserule it in your game.


It absolutely does. I could fill this thread up with about a hundred examples of "Writers-fiat" statements being 100% false.

The books are CONSTANTLY contradicting each other and making statements that are provably false.

Mega Damage/MDC is rare (but over 40% of the population of NA has it).

Getting around North America/Rifts Earth is super hard and is lots of wandering around the wilderness (but vehicles from the RMB could literally cross the continent in 3 hours, and there are COMMERCIAL AIRPORTS with DAILY FLIGHTS)

The statement in the original writeup (and ill Agree with Eli here, its just horse-dung writing) of "people dont use it because of this completely nonsensical reason" is just false on its face. Its available in two public schools in two of the MOST common places that mercs visit! (MercTown and Arzno, with only NG/MI being left out).

Its just bad writing. Everyone has to deal with that in their game however they can, but i think the most reasonable course of action, and the one that most of us here probably take, is to admit that what the book is saying (writers fiat or no) is just wrong, and to adjust it to make sense.

Sure, as strictly written, it is, for some unknown, stupid, assinine reason, "rare and almost forgotten".

I'd never play in, or GM, a game where the writers fiat was the final say, because if you try to do that, the game literally cant be played and makes no sense on its face.


To a large extent I agree, however...

The point i'm trying to make is that this thread is largely talking about the balance of a given spell in Rules as Written. Which means we have to consider the balance in the context of the text, not the context after we apply our perfered houserules. Part of the Balance of these spells is that, yes, it was said they are rare and most mages do not have them and snub learning them. Yes, it's the hackist kind of writing. But you can't simply ignore the only balancing factor about the spells and say they make fighting tech too easy. They do, but they're supposed to be rare. if you say nothing about them means they should be rare: I would agree, but then your ignoring the balance, and that distorts it.

So your free to GM your game however you want, but you can't in good faith ignore balancing aspects of the setting in favor of tech because it doesn't make sense for mages to play that way, then complain that mages have it too easy against tech. That's your fault, and if you want to ignore the given balancing factor of rarity, you need to come up with a different way to keep balance or the problem is your fault, not the books.

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