Orbital Community's response?

[SolCannibal]

There is little technical difference in getting from Earth to Mars as getting from Earth to the former Pluto..

i mean, we don't call it a planet anymore, but it's still named pluto.....

Yes, last i heard it didn't go in a weird career bender like Prince, order a thousand towels for itself before an appearance or something like that.

[Warshield73]

There is little technical difference in getting from Earth to Mars as getting from Earth to the former Pluto..

i mean, we don't call it a planet anymore, but it's still named pluto.....

Yes, last i heard it didn't go in a weird career bender like Prince, order a thousand towels for itself before an appearance or something like that.

I meant to say something like former planet Pluto but then decided to delete it, I just didn't get it all.

[Rallan]

And the navigation. You could reach the orbit of Pluto only to find that it's 250 years away. Since energy is infinite in Rifts you can afford some lack of precision, but you still have to know quite narrowly where the target will be at all times in the future so that you know it'll be there when you get there.

That's not really a problem. We've been able spot exactly where Pluto is and plot exactly where it will be at any point in the future ever since the 1930s. And back then we did it with nothing fancier than optical telescopes, slide rules, and books of trig tables.

[taalismn]

[
I meant to say something like former planet Pluto but then decided to delete it, I just didn't get it all.

It may have been downgraded to 'dwarf planet', but after New Horizons went by, everybody agrees Pluto made up for lack of size with sheer surprise(evidence of dynamic surface features, thin atmosphere, internal heating, four-mile high water ice mountains..and one charismatic heart-shaped frozen 'ocean'...possibly sitting atop a deep liquid one).
As one astronomer said with regards to previous assumptions about what Pluto(and other outer worlds) should have been like; "Pluto didn't read those books".

[SolCannibal]

As an aside, it has crossed my head the possibility of spacers exchanging copies of data on lost space facilities, mines or stations in other parts of the system and trading stories about equipment or technnologies in the vein of sailors discussing hidden pirate treasures and maps leading to it, some actually scrounging resources and courage to actually risk themselves in such adventures thaat could lead to ruin, fortune or autonomy as a power depending on one's luck and allies.

Or seeking a wandering Spacefaring Dutchman or Andromeda Ascendant Heavy Cruiser, among other things.

[Natasha]

And the navigation. You could reach the orbit of Pluto only to find that it's 250 years away. Since energy is infinite in Rifts you can afford some lack of precision, but you still have to know quite narrowly where the target will be at all times in the future so that you know it'll be there when you get there.

I just don't think navigation is going to be that big of problem. There is little technical difference in getting from Earth to Mars as getting from Earth to the former Pluto. If the Orbital Community has the ability to find and mine asteroids they can do the navigation.

That is fine. Navigation doesn't have to be a problem. However, if a Game Master seeks to introduce some element of chance into a mission, then it is an option even with infinite energy.

For real humans, we can only fly to Mars about once every two years. More dramatically, Voyager's mission is possible once every 176 years. We cannot put a spaceship in orbit around Pluto within a human's lifetime; for all intents and purposes, we couldn't mine Pluto if we wanted. Infinite energy solves all of these problems. We could go to each planet in the outer solar system and mine Pluto at any time we choose.

How could navigation be a problem? It enters through the quality of the ephemeris data and numerical integration techniques. Failed skill checks (such as astronavigation, advanced maths) require course corrections (which may fail) which at least extends the duration of the spaceflight. Follow-on challenges aren't difficult to come up with.

And the navigation. You could reach the orbit of Pluto only to find that it's 250 years away. Since energy is infinite in Rifts you can afford some lack of precision, but you still have to know quite narrowly where the target will be at all times in the future so that you know it'll be there when you get there.

That's not really a problem. We've been able spot exactly where Pluto is and plot exactly where it will be at any point in the future ever since the 1930s. And back then we did it with nothing fancier than optical telescopes, slide rules, and books of trig tables.

And we found Neptune without ever seeing it. One can afford a few degrees of inaccuracy when plotting on paper or programming a telescope to track Pluto given the large acceptable margin for error.

It's easy to justify that putting those state vectors into a navigation computer is a challenge to spacefarers. The Game Master determines to what extent if any (since infinite energy expands the margin for error).

[taalismn]

As an aside, it has crossed my head the possibility of spacers exchanging copies of data on lost space facilities, mines or stations in other parts of the system and trading stories about equipment or technnologies in the vein of sailors discussing hidden pirate treasures and maps leading to it, some actually scrounging resources and courage to actually risk themselves in such adventures thaat could lead to ruin, fortune or autonomy as a power depending on one's luck and allies.

Or seeking a wandering Spacefaring Dutchman or Andromeda Ascendant Heavy Cruiser, among other things.

Gotta love those deep cometary orbits for storing stuff long-term.
Or the orbital tomb in the anime collection 'Memories"...

[SolCannibal]

As an aside, it has crossed my head the possibility of spacers exchanging copies of data on lost space facilities, mines or stations in other parts of the system and trading stories about equipment or technnologies in the vein of sailors discussing hidden pirate treasures and maps leading to it, some actually scrounging resources and courage to actually risk themselves in such adventures thaat could lead to ruin, fortune or autonomy as a power depending on one's luck and allies.

Or seeking a wandering Spacefaring Dutchman or Andromeda Ascendant Heavy Cruiser, among other things.

Gotta love those deep cometary orbits for storing stuff long-term.
Or the orbital tomb in the anime collection 'Memories"...

Oh yeah, the "Magnetic Rose" short. That would make a very good BtS/Rifts adventure in space.

[Warshield73]

As an aside, it has crossed my head the possibility of spacers exchanging copies of data on lost space facilities, mines or stations in other parts of the system and trading stories about equipment or technnologies in the vein of sailors discussing hidden pirate treasures and maps leading to it, some actually scrounging resources and courage to actually risk themselves in such adventures thaat could lead to ruin, fortune or autonomy as a power depending on one's luck and allies.

Or seeking a wandering Spacefaring Dutchman or Andromeda Ascendant Heavy Cruiser, among other things.

Gotta love those deep cometary orbits for storing stuff long-term.
Or the orbital tomb in the anime collection 'Memories"...

Oh yeah, the "Magnetic Rose" short. That would make a very good BtS/Rifts adventure in space.

Anyone who ever saw Roughnecks: The Starship Troopers Chronicles already new Pluto was full of surprises. I'm still waiting to see if it's moon Charon is really a Mass Relay.

How could navigation be a problem? It enters through the quality of the ephemeris data and numerical integration techniques. Failed skill checks (such as astronavigation, advanced maths) require course corrections (which may fail) which at least extends the duration of the spaceflight. Follow-on challenges aren't difficult to come up with.

This is absolutely true I was speaking just on the location of planets. My favorite interstellar travel problem is enemy fleets and especially ley line storms.

[SolCannibal]

As an aside, it has crossed my head the possibility of spacers exchanging copies of data on lost space facilities, mines or stations in other parts of the system and trading stories about equipment or technnologies in the vein of sailors discussing hidden pirate treasures and maps leading to it, some actually scrounging resources and courage to actually risk themselves in such adventures thaat could lead to ruin, fortune or autonomy as a power depending on one's luck and allies.

Or seeking a wandering Spacefaring Dutchman or Andromeda Ascendant Heavy Cruiser, among other things.

Gotta love those deep cometary orbits for storing stuff long-term.
Or the orbital tomb in the anime collection 'Memories"...

Oh yeah, the "Magnetic Rose" short. That would make a very good BtS/Rifts adventure in space.

Anyone who ever saw Roughnecks: The Starship Troopers Chronicles already new Pluto was full of surprises. I'm still waiting to see if it's moon Charon is really a Mass Relay.

Oh, i vaguely remember that one. Maybe it's just my imagination, but sometimes i saw a Shadow Raiders' influence here and there.

As an aside, Charon has something like a 1212km diameter, compared to the 15km (5km, if one considers just the rings) length of the Relays in Mass Effect. Who would have built one on that scale and left there, the Dominators?!?!

Damn, now i'm imagining the Terran Federation from the cartoon as some budding human star-nation somewhere in Thundercloud.

How could navigation be a problem? It enters through the quality of the ephemeris data and numerical integration techniques. Failed skill checks (such as astronavigation, advanced maths) require course corrections (which may fail) which at least extends the duration of the spaceflight. Follow-on challenges aren't difficult to come up with.

This is absolutely true I was speaking just on the location of planets. My favorite interstellar travel problem is enemy fleets and especially ley line storms.

Me, i like to tinker with stuff like incomplete information, missed errors or communication/translation issues leading to problems with one's stellar cartography, along with the exploration and improvisation that might come up from dealing with uncharted (at least to the characters) problems.

[Rallan]

And we found Neptune without ever seeing it. One can afford a few degrees of inaccuracy when plotting on paper or programming a telescope to track Pluto given the large acceptable margin for error.

It's easy to justify that putting those state vectors into a navigation computer is a challenge to spacefarers. The Game Master determines to what extent if any (since infinite energy expands the margin for error).

Well except that they're using late 21st century computers. And they're plotting a course for a ship that can do constant 1G acceleration on demand instead of a probe that only has enough fuel for tiny course corrections, which means they can have a pretty sloppy margin for error and compensate for it on the way.

Plus in the time it takes to get from the inner solar system to Pluto's orbit with a traction drive, Pluto will only move about a 20th of an AU. So even if you're terrible at navigation and you've got no data on Pluto at all apart from "it's 30-odd AUs away in that direction right now", getting there via traction drive is a piece of cake.

[lather]

And we found Neptune without ever seeing it. One can afford a few degrees of inaccuracy when plotting on paper or programming a telescope to track Pluto given the large acceptable margin for error.

It's easy to justify that putting those state vectors into a navigation computer is a challenge to spacefarers. The Game Master determines to what extent if any (since infinite energy expands the margin for error).

Well except that they're using late 21st century computers. And they're plotting a course for a ship that can do constant 1G acceleration on demand instead of a probe that only has enough fuel for tiny course corrections, which means they can have a pretty sloppy margin for error and compensate for it on the way.

Plus in the time it takes to get from the inner solar system to Pluto's orbit with a traction drive, Pluto will only move about a 20th of an AU. So even if you're terrible at navigation and you've got no data on Pluto at all apart from "it's 30-odd AUs away in that direction right now", getting there via traction drive is a piece of cake.

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

[Daniel Stoker]

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Wouldn't that be "Interplanetary Navigation" found on page 16? Or am I misreading something here?


Daniel Stoker

[SolCannibal]

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Wouldn't that be "Interplanetary Navigation" found on page 16? Or am I misreading something here?


Daniel Stoker

I guess the real question is - do other Palladium settings with a space travel element - 3 Gs, AU, TMNT Universe, Robotech or others - use the skill under which name?

[ShadowLogan]

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Wouldn't that be "Interplanetary Navigation" found on page 16? Or am I misreading something here?


Daniel Stoker

I guess the real question is - do other Palladium settings with a space travel element - 3 Gs, AU, TMNT Universe, Robotech or others - use the skill under which name?

Robotech 1E and Robotech 2E both use "Pilot Related SKills: Navigation-Space" (Macross 2 doesn't have any type of space navigational skill)

Rifts Phase World (DB2 pg151) uses "Navigation-Space".

Heroes Unlimited (2E) uses "Navigation-Space". (I don't know if Aliens Unlimited simply defaults to this or not, or if its edition specific as I looked at 2E HU)

Mutants in Orbit divides it into 2 skills, but Ninja & Superspies (revised) puts them into 1 skill "Orbital and Interplanetary Navigation"

[lather]

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Wouldn't that be "Interplanetary Navigation" found on page 16? Or am I misreading something here?


Daniel Stoker

To add to the salad of available skills, Rifts Game Master Guide (p. 70) removes interplanetary navigation as a separate skill and places it in the space navigation skill. A failed roll is off by (roll - chance) * 1 million (no units are given) or 4D6 light-years for intergalactic whoopsies.

[Daniel Stoker]

Knowing Palladium that's probably miles.


Daniel Stoker

[SolCannibal]

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Wouldn't that be "Interplanetary Navigation" found on page 16? Or am I misreading something here?


Daniel Stoker

I guess the real question is - do other Palladium settings with a space travel element - 3 Gs, AU, TMNT Universe, Robotech or others - use the skill under which name?

Robotech 1E and Robotech 2E both use "Pilot Related SKills: Navigation-Space" (Macross 2 doesn't have any type of space navigational skill)

Rifts Phase World (DB2 pg151) uses "Navigation-Space".

Heroes Unlimited (2E) uses "Navigation-Space". (I don't know if Aliens Unlimited simply defaults to this or not, or if its edition specific as I looked at 2E HU)

Mutants in Orbit divides it into 2 skills, but Ninja & Superspies (revised) puts them into 1 skill "Orbital and Interplanetary Navigation"

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Wouldn't that be "Interplanetary Navigation" found on page 16? Or am I misreading something here?


Daniel Stoker

To add to the salad of available skills, Rifts Game Master Guide (p. 70) removes interplanetary navigation as a separate skill and places it in the space navigation skill. A failed roll is off by (roll - chance) * 1 million (no units are given) or 4D6 light-years for intergalactic whoopsies.

Knowing Palladium that's probably miles.


Daniel Stoker

Well, all of this info from books collected in one place should be of interest to anyone else looking for space navigation related stuff, i guess, so there it is.

[Rallan]

Plus in the time it takes to get from the inner solar system to Pluto's orbit with a traction drive, Pluto will only move about a 20th of an AU. So even if you're terrible at navigation and you've got no data on Pluto at all apart from "it's 30-odd AUs away in that direction right now", getting there via traction drive is a piece of cake.

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.[/quote]

Its more as if I'm pointing out that traction drives are so broken that you barely even need to know how to navigate. All of the things that made plotting the course of real-life probes like Voyager and New Horizons such a delicate operation just don't apply any more, because you can just brute-strength everything by constantly using the fastest and most powerful drive ever created.

I mean just sticking with Pluto for a bit, look at what they had to do with the New Horizons probe. They had to aim for where Pluto would be nine and a half years in the future. They had to take into account how the gravitational pull of the gas giants would affect the probe's course, and they had to use one of them (Jupiter) for a gravity-assist slingshot. And they had to make sure it was on exaclty the right course to coast through all of this before it had even finished leaving Earth's gravity well. That's some complicated navigation right there.

But with a traction drive? Just point your ship in the direction Pluto is right now, and rest assured that you'll reach your destination almost as fast as you would've if you'd actually bothered to sit down and work out how far everything'll move on your trip. And the gravity of other planets? Fuhgeddaboudit! You can pull 1G whenever you want, in whatever direction you want, for as long as you want. Unless you're passing by another planet close enough to go deep into its gravity well, the effect it has on your flight path is just gonna be a rounding error.

Or the tldr version: there is no reason why exploring the outer solar system with traction drives would be hard to navigate, and it would in fact be considerably easier than learning to play Kerbal Space Program.

[SolCannibal]

Plus in the time it takes to get from the inner solar system to Pluto's orbit with a traction drive, Pluto will only move about a 20th of an AU. So even if you're terrible at navigation and you've got no data on Pluto at all apart from "it's 30-odd AUs away in that direction right now", getting there via traction drive is a piece of cake.

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Its more as if I'm pointing out that traction drives are so broken that you barely even need to know how to navigate. All of the things that made plotting the course of real-life probes like Voyager and New Horizons such a delicate operation just don't apply any more, because you can just brute-strength everything by constantly using the fastest and most powerful drive ever created.

I mean just sticking with Pluto for a bit, look at what they had to do with the New Horizons probe. They had to aim for where Pluto would be nine and a half years in the future. They had to take into account how the gravitational pull of the gas giants would affect the probe's course, and they had to use one of them (Jupiter) for a gravity-assist slingshot. And they had to make sure it was on exaclty the right course to coast through all of this before it had even finished leaving Earth's gravity well. That's some complicated navigation right there.

But with a traction drive? Just point your ship in the direction Pluto is right now, and rest assured that you'll reach your destination almost as fast as you would've if you'd actually bothered to sit down and work out how far everything'll move on your trip. And the gravity of other planets? Fuhgeddaboudit! You can pull 1G whenever you want, in whatever direction you want, for as long as you want. Unless you're passing by another planet close enough to go deep into its gravity well, the effect it has on your flight path is just gonna be a rounding error.

Or the tldr version: there is no reason why exploring the outer solar system with traction drives would be hard to navigate, and it would in fact be considerably easier than learning to play Kerbal Space Program.

And you just hit the nail on what bothers me about traction drives - how they are in a degree of brokeness more appropriate to a star-hopping "don't thing the details" space opera kind of setting than the "small isles of life desperately struggling in a titanic uncaring sea of starlit darkness" the solar system is painted as through the whole book.

[lather]

Plus in the time it takes to get from the inner solar system to Pluto's orbit with a traction drive, Pluto will only move about a 20th of an AU. So even if you're terrible at navigation and you've got no data on Pluto at all apart from "it's 30-odd AUs away in that direction right now", getting there via traction drive is a piece of cake.

It's as if she believes Space Navigation is a skill, which "allows a character to plot and lay in a course for the large distances between the planets," and you've just described an example of using that non-existent skill.

Its more as if I'm pointing out that traction drives are so broken that you barely even need to know how to navigate. All of the things that made plotting the course of real-life probes like Voyager and New Horizons such a delicate operation just don't apply any more, because you can just brute-strength everything by constantly using the fastest and most powerful drive ever created.

I mean just sticking with Pluto for a bit, look at what they had to do with the New Horizons probe. They had to aim for where Pluto would be nine and a half years in the future. They had to take into account how the gravitational pull of the gas giants would affect the probe's course, and they had to use one of them (Jupiter) for a gravity-assist slingshot. And they had to make sure it was on exaclty the right course to coast through all of this before it had even finished leaving Earth's gravity well. That's some complicated navigation right there.

But with a traction drive? Just point your ship in the direction Pluto is right now, and rest assured that you'll reach your destination almost as fast as you would've if you'd actually bothered to sit down and work out how far everything'll move on your trip. And the gravity of other planets? Fuhgeddaboudit! You can pull 1G whenever you want, in whatever direction you want, for as long as you want. Unless you're passing by another planet close enough to go deep into its gravity well, the effect it has on your flight path is just gonna be a rounding error.

Or the tldr version: there is no reason why exploring the outer solar system with traction drives would be hard to navigate, and it would in fact be considerably easier than learning to play Kerbal Space Program.

No reason other than the fact an actual skill exists specifically for this scenario. Sure, traction drives (and Rifts in general) are hopelessly broken. But the skill still exists. Ignore it or don't for some reason or no reason whatsoever.

It's not that I misunderstand your point that you need to keep explaining it or that I necessarily disagree with it.

[Warshield73]

And you just hit the nail on what bothers me about traction drives - how they are in a degree of brokeness more appropriate to a star-hopping "don't thing the details" space opera kind of setting than the "small isles of life desperately struggling in a titanic uncaring sea of starlit darkness" the solar system is painted as through the whole book.

I don't think you can say that it breaks the system since it costs 40 times as much as other drives so it would be out of reach for almost any PC group. If you have a few ships that can traverse the system in reasonable short time it doesn't make them less isolated.

Most of the groups in MiO are so close together, all in the Earth-Luna system, means that even with just a chemical drive the transit times are only a few hours. Traction drives really only come in when you are going to Mars and beyond and in the book itself there just isn't that much.

Now if you add in massive asteroid works or outer planet colonies on Ganymede or other moons then the traction drive really comes in but then you are going well past the feel of the entire book.

[SolCannibal]

And you just hit the nail on what bothers me about traction drives - how they are in a degree of brokeness more appropriate to a star-hopping "don't thing the details" space opera kind of setting than the "small isles of life desperately struggling in a titanic uncaring sea of starlit darkness" the solar system is painted as through the whole book.

I don't think you can say that it breaks the system since it costs 40 times as much as other drives so it would be out of reach for almost any PC group. If you have a few ships that can traverse the system in reasonable short time it doesn't make them less isolated.

Most of the groups in MiO are so close together, all in the Earth-Luna system, means that even with just a chemical drive the transit times are only a few hours. Traction drives really only come in when you are going to Mars and beyond and in the book itself there just isn't that much.

Now if you add in massive asteroid works or outer planet colonies on Ganymede or other moons then the traction drive really comes in but then you are going well past the feel of the entire book.

Well, my feeling is that rare or not it still makes for an ill fit overall, even if in the hands of only a few.

[Warshield73]

And you just hit the nail on what bothers me about traction drives - how they are in a degree of brokeness more appropriate to a star-hopping "don't thing the details" space opera kind of setting than the "small isles of life desperately struggling in a titanic uncaring sea of starlit darkness" the solar system is painted as through the whole book.

I don't think you can say that it breaks the system since it costs 40 times as much as other drives so it would be out of reach for almost any PC group. If you have a few ships that can traverse the system in reasonable short time it doesn't make them less isolated.

Most of the groups in MiO are so close together, all in the Earth-Luna system, means that even with just a chemical drive the transit times are only a few hours. Traction drives really only come in when you are going to Mars and beyond and in the book itself there just isn't that much.

Now if you add in massive asteroid works or outer planet colonies on Ganymede or other moons then the traction drive really comes in but then you are going well past the feel of the entire book.

Well, my feeling is that rare or not it still makes for an ill fit overall, even if in the hands of only a few.

Again the cost was only a small part of thesis. The locations of stations and colonies and the fact that the outer planets are empty, or at least of human activity means you could have a hundred TD ships floating around the system and each one would still be alone in the dark.

I had always run MiO as if it was hard for people and goods to be moved around but lately I have to admit that if I were to rewrite it from scratch I might go more of an Expanse model.

[SolCannibal]

And you just hit the nail on what bothers me about traction drives - how they are in a degree of brokeness more appropriate to a star-hopping "don't thing the details" space opera kind of setting than the "small isles of life desperately struggling in a titanic uncaring sea of starlit darkness" the solar system is painted as through the whole book.

I don't think you can say that it breaks the system since it costs 40 times as much as other drives so it would be out of reach for almost any PC group. If you have a few ships that can traverse the system in reasonable short time it doesn't make them less isolated.

Most of the groups in MiO are so close together, all in the Earth-Luna system, means that even with just a chemical drive the transit times are only a few hours. Traction drives really only come in when you are going to Mars and beyond and in the book itself there just isn't that much.

Now if you add in massive asteroid works or outer planet colonies on Ganymede or other moons then the traction drive really comes in but then you are going well past the feel of the entire book.

Well, my feeling is that rare or not it still makes for an ill fit overall, even if in the hands of only a few.

Again the cost was only a small part of thesis. The locations of stations and colonies and the fact that the outer planets are empty, or at least of human activity means you could have a hundred TD ships floating around the system and each one would still be alone in the dark.

I had always run MiO as if it was hard for people and goods to be moved around but lately I have to admit that if I were to rewrite it from scratch I might go more of an Expanse model.

While i have heard of it, i'm not familiar with the series to even have an opinion on either model in relationn to each other.

[ShadowLogan]

Its more as if I'm pointing out that traction drives are so broken that you barely even need to know how to navigate. All of the things that made plotting the course of real-life probes like Voyager and New Horizons such a delicate operation just don't apply any more, because you can just brute-strength everything by constantly using the fastest and most powerful drive ever created.

TD drives are broken, but a drive type that is easy to ignore for the most part (no ship in MiO setting requires it). The Solar Drive is more cost effective and just as potentially breaking.

Regarding Skills. It should be noted that navigation skill checks probably aren't necessary per say, more likely for stressful sitautions or maybe to evaluatation/planning than regular routine operations. An in-universe gymnast isn't going to be making skill checks each time they use their gymanstic sub-skills (more like just for performances or situations that demand it as opposed to just practice).

I don't think you can say that it breaks the system since it costs 40 times as much as other drives so it would be out of reach for almost any PC group. If you have a few ships that can traverse the system in reasonable short time it doesn't make them less isolated.

Traction Drives are somewhat breaking. Even at 40x the cost for MOST MiO drives, they really don't have any real limits placed on them. In-universe something must be preventing them from catching on because the Orbitals should be using these ships to transport water from the outer solar system (or relocate there where resources are more plentiful, no need to really fight over the Moon). But even with the "handful of very large transports", they should be looking for resources beyond just the Moon. This drive opens up the entire Solar System for them.

Even if some in-universe reason exists (beyond cost as that should go down with increased production), the Solar Drive which is 1/20th the cost has the same range options as the TD. Per text it costs 100,000 every 6months to maintain, which could be fairly cheap depending on how often the other drive types need to be refueled in that same amount of time. (5x regular refueling in same amount of time, or 2.5x with double-tanks). You could operate a Solar Drive for 100 years at the cost of a TD drive without loss in range. The only real advantage the TD has over other drives is its "breaking" ability, at least as how Palladium has the various types performing (game-mechanically).

Now if you add in massive asteroid works or outer planet colonies on Ganymede or other moons then the traction drive really comes in but then you are going well past the feel of the entire book.

Asteroids are a thing (MiO pg34-5, Belt-way station. That is the AtB setting, but it gets modified for Rifts on pg61).

[hbrika]

Or course if you have traction drives then getting people to the outer system is a snap. You could even tow workhabitats and stations..

A company with a few bucks could make a freighter to tow small habitats and things

Of course I always thought that the traction drive seemed out of place tech wise in the TMNT setting, After the Bomb and even in Rifts.

[Natasha]

And we found Neptune without ever seeing it. One can afford a few degrees of inaccuracy when plotting on paper or programming a telescope to track Pluto given the large acceptable margin for error.

It's easy to justify that putting those state vectors into a navigation computer is a challenge to spacefarers. The Game Master determines to what extent if any (since infinite energy expands the margin for error).

Well except that they're using late 21st century computers. And they're plotting a course for a ship that can do constant 1G acceleration on demand instead of a probe that only has enough fuel for tiny course corrections, which means they can have a pretty sloppy margin for error and compensate for it on the way.

Plus in the time it takes to get from the inner solar system to Pluto's orbit with a traction drive, Pluto will only move about a 20th of an AU. So even if you're terrible at navigation and you've got no data on Pluto at all apart from "it's 30-odd AUs away in that direction right now", getting there via traction drive is a piece of cake.

My original point wasn't that arrival is difficult, but that arriving in the minimum amount of time requires high-quality data. Suppose we fly to 40 AU in the direction of Pluto because we have no data as in your example. Pluto's average distance is 40 AU. That takes nine days using +1G for the first half and -1G for the second half. Pluto can be as much as 30-50 AU away. The last 10 AU tacks on an additional 4,5 days (total of 13,5 days). Whereas flying to 50 AU using +1/-1G requires ten days and flying to 30 AU is eight days.

If the Game Master cares about time (or accepts that navigation exists whether or not traction drives exist), then navigation rolls are justified. If the Game Master does not care, then call it ten days, fold up the navigational mumble jumble, and require no roll(s).

[hbrika]

I can imagine the potential penalty for missing your point could be large (if you don’t have excess fuel, air etc).

Going to give this a re-read. I have some old ideas for the outer planets from my Gamma World days that I wouldn’t mind fitting into Rifts.

[hbrika]

I gave this a partial reread last weekend and found references to an Ark that was being worked on and a Stardrive nearly being finished. Interesting...

And that probes had been to other stars. There could be a lot of campaign potential in there.


It also fits in the timeline in Transdimensional TMNT - before the After the Bomb nations are colonizing the Solar System including the Empire of Humanity. I couldn't find that book. Hoping that I did not lose it in the move...

[SolCannibal]

I gave this a partial reread last weekend and found references to an Ark that was being worked on and a Stardrive nearly being finished. Interesting...

And that probes had been to other stars. There could be a lot of campaign potential in there.

And now i'm imagining an advanced probe with an ARCHIE AI "doing a V'ger" and returning heavily modified to the solar system to investigate or deal with the changed situation since it lost contact with its makers....

It also fits in the timeline in Transdimensional TMNT - before the After the Bomb nations are colonizing the Solar System including the Empire of Humanity. I couldn't find that book. Hoping that I did not lose it in the move...

Wish you luck in unearthing it from amidst your crates and stuff.

[Warshield73]

I had always run MiO as if it was hard for people and goods to be moved around but lately I have to admit that if I were to rewrite it from scratch I might go more of an Expanse model.

While i have heard of it, i'm not familiar with the series to even have an opinion on either model in relationn to each other.

It is some of the best science fiction I have read in more than a decade. For a series where most of takes place in the Sol system it has lots of ideas for a MiO type setting.

If you use Audible I highly recommend listening to the audio version, the man that reads it is incredible.

In terms of our discussion here it gives a plausible layout of the Sol system after more than a century of development and the technology that makes it possible, the Epstein drive, can be way faster than a traction drive.

Now if you add in massive asteroid works or outer planet colonies on Ganymede or other moons then the traction drive really comes in but then you are going well past the feel of the entire book.

Asteroids are a thing (MiO pg34-5, Belt-way station. That is the AtB setting, but it gets modified for Rifts on pg61).

I did specifically say massive in my description. The population in the belt is incredibly light and no real industry and Belt way station holds like 50 people at most. In terms of where most of the action in MiO takes place, Earth-Luna with some to Mars, the TD is more powerful but its extreme cost and the relatively short distances severely limits its utility.

Or course if you have traction drives then getting people to the outer system is a snap. You could even tow workhabitats and stations..

A company with a few bucks could make a freighter to tow small habitats and things

Of course I always thought that the traction drive seemed out of place tech wise in the TMNT setting, After the Bomb and even in Rifts.

First you can make a TD ship that can tow materials out but given the cost by ton the expense would be unreal and since the item you are towing would not have a TD accelerating it at 1G would rip your average structure, built to be stationary, apart. in order to tow a structure like this you would have to build it to ship standards and that would increase the cost to the point that it would make more sense to build on site. This is especially true given the resource strapped world of MiO that prefers energy weapons to projectiles or missiles because of scarcity of resources.

Second this is not a few bucks, you can build and fuel several ships for the cost of one TD ship. Now in a setting of nearly unlimited resources with massively powerful governments like Phase World this would not be an issue but in a setting like MiO it is a real issue.

As for out of place, in MiO and AtB I agree it is out of place but in Rifts, no. Power Armors in rifts can operate for decades without refueling so not a big jump in tech.

I gave this a partial reread last weekend and found references to an Ark that was being worked on and a Stardrive nearly being finished. Interesting...

And that probes had been to other stars. There could be a lot of campaign potential in there.

It also fits in the timeline in Transdimensional TMNT - before the After the Bomb nations are colonizing the Solar System including the Empire of Humanity. I couldn't find that book. Hoping that I did not lose it in the move...

I saw that too and instantly created a colony, forget where, didn't do much with them until Sout America 2 and the Arkohns came out and now I use that as a conflict point.

And now i'm imagining an advanced probe with an ARCHIE AI "doing a V'ger" and returning heavily modified to the solar system to investigate or deal with the changed situation since it lost contact with its makers....

Could be interesting. Send out a semi-organic AI into the galaxy then after a massive surge of mystic energy you get a baby demon planet back.

[Sohisohi]

I find it difficult to believe they care. Would be nice if we get an expansions. I remember one of the books saying rifts where once active on Mars and there is that one Rifter with moon content. Even if we ignore this, I just want to see what space humans are up to.

But as stated before, I don't think they care

[Warshield73]

I find it difficult to believe they care. Would be nice if we get an expansions. I remember one of the books saying rifts where once active on Mars and there is that one Rifter with moon content. Even if we ignore this, I just want to see what space humans are up to.

But as stated before, I don't think they care

I think saying they "don't care" would be too simple. I think they are perfectly happy to have all of this contained on Earth but I think they will be watching, listening to any SinInt from Lazlo, the CS and any others involved and in general preparing for when this particular crap hits their particular fan.

As for new books I will keep repeating this until I am dead or banned we just need a complete rewrite of Rifts space. Keep some of the basics but make it bigger and more Rifts like.

[Orin J.]

As for new books I will keep repeating this until I am dead or banned we just need a complete rewrite of Rifts space. Keep some of the basics but make it bigger and more Rifts like.

why would space be rifts-like? i thought the "horrific levels of magical nonsense" was an attribute of the planet's situation, and not representative of the.....everything else. honestly having some entirely un-riftsmanlike terraforming bases on.....i dunno, mars having turned their telescopes homeward and trying futilely to understand why leave it to beaver is suddenly heavy metal 2000 would be a fun counterpoint to me.

[SolCannibal]

As for new books I will keep repeating this until I am dead or banned we just need a complete rewrite of Rifts space. Keep some of the basics but make it bigger and more Rifts like.

why would space be rifts-like? i thought the "horrific levels of magical nonsense" was an attribute of the planet's situation, and not representative of the.....everything else. honestly having some entirely un-riftsmanlike terraforming bases on.....i dunno, mars having turned their telescopes homeward and trying futilely to understand why leave it to beaver is suddenly heavy metal 2000 would be a fun counterpoint to me.

Actually , Rifts Earth became what it currently is due to shenanigans during a winter solstice that happened amidst a multi-planetary alignement, it's right there in the good, ol' RMB.

Meaning that some of the mess generating something a domino effect through at least some parts of the solar system does make sense - and in facts parts of the fluff on Mars (and my own Rifts: Ghosts of Mars setting) and i think South America (need to recheck the material on the Arkhon) hinges on that.

Probably not to the same degree all across the system, as the boost on Earth's case was itself connected to a millenia-long drain of sorts, but some splash effect hitting other celestial bodies does fit the general backstory.

[Warshield73]

As for new books I will keep repeating this until I am dead or banned we just need a complete rewrite of Rifts space. Keep some of the basics but make it bigger and more Rifts like.

why would space be rifts-like? i thought the "horrific levels of magical nonsense" was an attribute of the planet's situation, and not representative of the.....everything else. honestly having some entirely un-riftsmanlike terraforming bases on.....i dunno, mars having turned their telescopes homeward and trying futilely to understand why leave it to beaver is suddenly heavy metal 2000 would be a fun counterpoint to me.

Magical "nonsense" is you know...well Rifts. Now a straight post-apocalypse game with no magic and people looking at earth sounds like AtB or something similar.

I mean if we are doing Rifts space it should be Rifts. We already have Arkohns in system and ley-lines on Mars so just run with it and really give use some mystical stuff.

Actually , Rifts Earth became what it currently is due to shenanigans during a winter solstice that happened amidst a multi-planetary alignement, it's right there in the good, ol' RMB.

Meaning that some of the mess generating something a domino effect through at least some parts of the solar system does make sense - and in facts parts of the fluff on Mars (and my own Rifts: Ghosts of Mars setting) and i think South America (need to recheck the material on the Arkhon) hinges on that.

Probably not to the same degree all across the system, as the boost on Earth's case was itself connected to a millenia-long drain of sorts, but some splash effect hitting other celestial bodies does fit the general backstory.

"Shenanigans" for Limited nuclear exchange? I would like to present you with the Understatement of the Year award.

Seriously though given what we know about places like the three galaxies its hard to imagine that something on the scale of the coming of the Rifts would have to have an effect on the Sol sytem and even areas around it.

I had always used the idea that the effects of the coming of the rifts had expanded well beyond Sol and now I use the idea from Rifter 56 of an expanding magic zone.

[SolCannibal]

As for new books I will keep repeating this until I am dead or banned we just need a complete rewrite of Rifts space. Keep some of the basics but make it bigger and more Rifts like.

why would space be rifts-like? i thought the "horrific levels of magical nonsense" was an attribute of the planet's situation, and not representative of the.....everything else. honestly having some entirely un-riftsmanlike terraforming bases on.....i dunno, mars having turned their telescopes homeward and trying futilely to understand why leave it to beaver is suddenly heavy metal 2000 would be a fun counterpoint to me.

Magical "nonsense" is you know...well Rifts. Now a straight post-apocalypse game with no magic and people looking at earth sounds like AtB or something similar.

I mean if we are doing Rifts space it should be Rifts. We already have Arkohns in system and ley-lines on Mars so just run with it and really give use some mystical stuff.

Ain't there also a derelict station that might have become a major nexus point? Have to reread some bits of MiO one of those days. But agree with you in the sentiment, solar system in Rifts should have some degree of crazy even if not on the level of Earth per se.

Actually , Rifts Earth became what it currently is due to shenanigans during a winter solstice that happened amidst a multi-planetary alignement, it's right there in the good, ol' RMB.

Meaning that some of the mess generating something a domino effect through at least some parts of the solar system does make sense - and in facts parts of the fluff on Mars (and my own Rifts: Ghosts of Mars setting) and i think South America (need to recheck the material on the Arkhon) hinges on that.

Probably not to the same degree all across the system, as the boost on Earth's case was itself connected to a millenia-long drain of sorts, but some splash effect hitting other celestial bodies does fit the general backstory.

"Shenanigans" for Limited nuclear exchange? I would like to present you with the Understatement of the Year award.

Thank, thank you so much, it's an honor. I never expected this and i think it shows how our most memorable words come up when we are not really thinking of what we are saying....

Seriously though given what we know about places like the three galaxies its hard to imagine that something on the scale of the coming of the Rifts would have to have an effect on the Sol sytem and even areas around it.

I had always used the idea that the effects of the coming of the rifts had expanded well beyond Sol and now I use the idea from Rifter 56 of an expanding magic zone.

Did you mean "its hard to imagine that something on the scale of the coming of the Rifts would not have an effect on the Sol sytem and even areas around it" perhaps? Because it seems to fit more with your commentary about an expanding magic zone.

[Warshield73]

As for new books I will keep repeating this until I am dead or banned we just need a complete rewrite of Rifts space. Keep some of the basics but make it bigger and more Rifts like.

why would space be rifts-like? i thought the "horrific levels of magical nonsense" was an attribute of the planet's situation, and not representative of the.....everything else. honestly having some entirely un-riftsmanlike terraforming bases on.....i dunno, mars having turned their telescopes homeward and trying futilely to understand why leave it to beaver is suddenly heavy metal 2000 would be a fun counterpoint to me.

Magical "nonsense" is you know...well Rifts. Now a straight post-apocalypse game with no magic and people looking at earth sounds like AtB or something similar.

I mean if we are doing Rifts space it should be Rifts. We already have Arkohns in system and ley-lines on Mars so just run with it and really give use some mystical stuff.

Ain't there also a derelict station that might have become a major nexus point? Have to reread some bits of MiO one of those days. But agree with you in the sentiment, solar system in Rifts should have some degree of crazy even if not on the level of Earth per se.

There is the wreckage of the Japanese station that was that is now called the graveyard. I use several monsters from Aliens Unlimited and Phase World to populate it.

As for level of magic it should be like the system at large needs to be like Earth. Some areas have high levels of ley-line activity and other low. there should be safe areas and an equivalent to the magic zone.

Actually , Rifts Earth became what it currently is due to shenanigans during a winter solstice that happened amidst a multi-planetary alignement, it's right there in the good, ol' RMB.

Meaning that some of the mess generating something a domino effect through at least some parts of the solar system does make sense - and in facts parts of the fluff on Mars (and my own Rifts: Ghosts of Mars setting) and i think South America (need to recheck the material on the Arkhon) hinges on that.

Probably not to the same degree all across the system, as the boost on Earth's case was itself connected to a millenia-long drain of sorts, but some splash effect hitting other celestial bodies does fit the general backstory.

"Shenanigans" for Limited nuclear exchange? I would like to present you with the Understatement of the Year award.

Thank, thank you so much, it's an honor. I never expected this and i think it shows how our most memorable words come up when we are not really thinking of what we are saying....

It was well deserved.

Seriously though given what we know about places like the three galaxies its hard to imagine that something on the scale of the coming of the Rifts would have to have an effect on the Sol sytem and even areas around it.

I had always used the idea that the effects of the coming of the rifts had expanded well beyond Sol and now I use the idea from Rifter 56 of an expanding magic zone.

Did you mean "its hard to imagine that something on the scale of the coming of the Rifts would not have an effect on the Sol sytem and even areas around it" perhaps? Because it seems to fit more with your commentary about an expanding magic zone.

You are correct. I believe what happened on Earth was so enormous that it would have spilled out into the system and the local area of the galaxy. Like I said the expanding magic zone in Rifter 56 is a great idea and I hope whomever writes a revised Rifts space uses it.

[hbrika]

I gave this a partial reread last weekend and found references to an Ark that was being worked on and a Stardrive nearly being finished. Interesting...

And that probes had been to other stars. There could be a lot of campaign potential in there.

And now i'm imagining an advanced probe with an ARCHIE AI "doing a V'ger" and returning heavily modified to the solar system to investigate or deal with the changed situation since it lost contact with its makers....

It also fits in the timeline in Transdimensional TMNT - before the After the Bomb nations are colonizing the Solar System including the Empire of Humanity. I couldn't find that book. Hoping that I did not lose it in the move...

Wish you luck in unearthing it from amidst your crates and stuff.

I like your idea.

And no dice on the book. It should have been with the other TMNT books so thats worrisome.

The good news is that I have a PDF copy the bad news is that I prefer paper I did dig up CthulhuPunk out of a box though, that was a nice find.

[SolCannibal]

I gave this a partial reread last weekend and found references to an Ark that was being worked on and a Stardrive nearly being finished. Interesting...

And that probes had been to other stars. There could be a lot of campaign potential in there.

And now i'm imagining an advanced probe with an ARCHIE AI "doing a V'ger" and returning heavily modified to the solar system to investigate or deal with the changed situation since it lost contact with its makers....

It also fits in the timeline in Transdimensional TMNT - before the After the Bomb nations are colonizing the Solar System including the Empire of Humanity. I couldn't find that book. Hoping that I did not lose it in the move...

Wish you luck in unearthing it from amidst your crates and stuff.

I like your idea.

For a little bit of dramatic build up, you could start with something (apparently) of little to no relation: a group of PCs or some patrons/associates of theirs coming across recovered charts, photos and maps from a whole dozen transneptunian bodies done by an AI outbound probe while leaving the system centuries ago, what starts a chase for some elusive resource indicated by the old data.

After a bunch of stuff, adventuring and so on, while almost reaching their target - they get a transpoder signal of the probe. Coming back into system. And when their cameras catch the first planetoid.....constructions, organized in patterns almost like circuitry, can be seen all over a large chunk of its surface. Someone decided to make preparations before a proper return.

And no dice on the book. It should have been with the other TMNT books so thats worrisome.

The good news is that I have a PDF copy the bad news is that I prefer paper I did dig up CthulhuPunk out of a box though, that was a nice find.

Give it time, chaos has its own method, it will probably return on its own time, one hopes.

[Fenris2020]

Gravity would probably kill anyone from the Lunar nd Orbital colonies, but they could send some of their robots down, I suppose.

[SolCannibal]

Gravity would probably kill anyone from the Lunar nd Orbital colonies, but they could send some of their robots down, I suppose.

What do you mean? if you're speaking of problems with returning to Earth, not exactly. Near the time of Rifts there might have been the tech for artificial gravity and even if not, there are ways to get around the problem if one is really invested in long-term space exploration and/or habitation. In fact the continued existence of the stations would have required dealing with such an issue long ago, as our current research on the subject already shows gravity or some stopgap substitute to be a necessity to our continued survival in an orbital enviroment.

Now exploring the gas giants - yeah, that would most probably require robots indeed.

[Fenris2020]

Gravity would probably kill anyone from the Lunar nd Orbital colonies, but they could send some of their robots down, I suppose.

What do you mean? if you're speaking of problems with returning to Earth, not exactly. Near the time of Rifts there might have been the tech for artificial gravity and even if not, there are ways to get around the problem if one is really invested in long-term space exploration and/or habitation. In fact the continued existence of the stations would have required dealing with such an issue long ago, as our current research on the subject already shows gravity or some stopgap substitute to be a necessity to our continued survival in an orbital enviroment.

Now exploring the gas giants - yeah, that would most probably require robots indeed.

Oh, I'm sure they might have SOME gravity.
However, even if you lived on Mars, the gravity is less there than Earths (even if you got the core molten again, and spinning...); your body wouldn't be able to adapt to the difference in the field, and you'd die in a month or less.
So, I think anything the colonies did would involve the robots whose pilots stay out in space, sort of like drones. Which really would be smarter anyway; they wouldn't want people on Earth to know they're out there, it would cause a lot of problems. The Arkhons are already a major threat.

[SolCannibal]

Gravity would probably kill anyone from the Lunar nd Orbital colonies, but they could send some of their robots down, I suppose.

What do you mean? if you're speaking of problems with returning to Earth, not exactly. Near the time of Rifts there might have been the tech for artificial gravity and even if not, there are ways to get around the problem if one is really invested in long-term space exploration and/or habitation. In fact the continued existence of the stations would have required dealing with such an issue long ago, as our current research on the subject already shows gravity or some stopgap substitute to be a necessity to our continued survival in an orbital enviroment.

Now exploring the gas giants - yeah, that would most probably require robots indeed.

Oh, I'm sure they might have SOME gravity.
However, even if you lived on Mars, the gravity is less there than Earths (even if you got the core molten again, and spinning...); your body wouldn't be able to adapt to the difference in the field, and you'd die in a month or less.

That's where i disagree - insuficient gravity invalidates the survival of the colonies on their own? The "wouldn't be able to adapt to the difference in the field, and you'd die in a month or less" scenario? That's what lack of gravity for extended periods may lead into. Our metabolisms are dependent in Earth's gravity as a constant in a number of ways we are far from fully exploring. Simply put, if they did not take the effort to deal with this issue beforehand, the space colonies would be graveyards by the time of MiO.

So, I think anything the colonies did would involve the robots whose pilots stay out in space, sort of like drones. Which really would be smarter anyway; they wouldn't want people on Earth to know they're out there, it would cause a lot of problems. The Arkhons are already a major threat.

Yes, using spy-satelites and observer drones is indeed a much more secure way for them to explore the issue of "rescuing" Earth, there's no denying. And now that you talked about it, seeing some stuff on conflicts or diplomacy between the Arkhon remnants, the Moon colony and the orbitals could be quite engaging too, i guess.

[hbrika]

The one space station is easily visible from the naked eye (according to Mutants in Orbit) so any decent telescopes made by major powers could see that the solar sail is being repaired and large ships leaving it.
(which could spawn some cool adventures, or the citizens of certain powers demanding it be shot down )

Plus they communicate and communications can be received. They could be encrypted and maybe never decrypted but they would be evidence of stuff going on in space

An interesting side take would be - what if the Archies are secretly working together?

Definitely one of my favorite Palladium books(MIO). There is a lot of potential from what was said in the book and what was not said.

[SolCannibal]

The one space station is easily visible from the naked eye (according to Mutants in Orbit) so any decent telescopes made by major powers could see that the solar sail is being repaired and large ships leaving it.
(which could spawn some cool adventures, or the citizens of certain powers demanding it be shot down )

Plus they communicate and communications can be received. They could be encrypted and maybe never decrypted but they would be evidence of stuff going on in space

An interesting side take would be - what if the Archies are secretly working together?

Definitely one of my favorite Palladium books(MIO). There is a lot of potential from what was said in the book and what was not said.

There's much in the book with the potential to turn the whole Rifts setting on its head if jusst take the time to think a little on what we get presented with along with the parts unsaid.

[Daniel Stoker]

An interesting side take would be - what if the Archies are secretly working together?

From what I remember (so take this with some salt) the Moon version of ARCHIE isn't nearly as advanced as Earth ARCHIE and doesn't have the intelligence to scheme and only let Earth ARCHIE access the satellites because he had the right codes that hadn't ever been discontinued.


Daniel Stoker

[SolCannibal]

An interesting side take would be - what if the Archies are secretly working together?

From what I remember (so take this with some salt) the Moon version of ARCHIE isn't nearly as advanced as Earth ARCHIE and doesn't have the intelligence to scheme and only let Earth ARCHIE access the satellites because he had the right codes that hadn't ever been discontinued.

Actually, the text implies the opposite.

A.R.C.H.I.E. Seven is a more sophisticated version of Archie Three, although it is completely machine; an artifIcial intelligence, a super-computer (not a living entity) that completely dominates and controls every aspect of the CAN Republic. Remember, the A.R.C.H.LE. system (Artificial, Robot, Cerebellum, Housing, Intellect, Experiment) design is based on the workings of a human brain. Its design parameters are to function as the brain of a gigantic environmental complex that it sees as its physical body.

But i do agree that it seems weird that its lunar equivalent would let Archie 3 get away with its shenanigans if it is so much more advanced. OR it could be that indirect, subtle manipulations under the guise of passivity on the part of Seven have had something of a role in how more coherent and less unhinged Archie-3 has been in the years since its initial portrayal in the Sourcebook....

Now i'm imagining some weird space cold war scenario between Archie-7 in the moon and "V'ger generic" in transneptunian space where they each have an agenda for humanity and re-ordering the system and each go at it in Mars, asteroids, the stations and other places on their own convoluted ways, sometimes almost allied, sometimes at cross-purposes due to different sourcess of intel, point of view & other stuff.

[Orin J.]

A.R.C.H.I.E 3 was a unique case even before the rifts in that they were intentionally experimenting with seeing how they could develop it with brain-interfacing if i recall. It's doubtful that anyone wants to run those tests on a mainframe they're currently depending on for maintaining safe orbit.

We teach a machine to think like a human and it decides it needs to turn to megalomania and have people worship it as a god to feel important. Typical.