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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:09 pm
  

D-Bee

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What is the Orbital Community's response to the current demon invasion? I mean story wise I fear they'll hobble them with creating some "thing" or event which prevents them from changing the story.
But realistically, having a bird's eye view of the danger, wouldn't there be a response? From them landing a special forces group (maybe to be confined to Earth thereafter... hey maybe move to Fiji :) )
Would be a cool way to drop a lunar cruiser into Rifts underseas, with those advanced remote robots. Having the Lunars needing to get stronger in Earth gravity as well.
All the way up to preparing orbital strikes. Those pesky demon plinths might need a large rock strike. Either before the heros go in, or as a dramatic way to end an adventure.
Mostly I'm interested in an update concerning Rifts Space.
Which I think has been left behind support wise.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:10 pm
  

D-Bee

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Added. The original FB post thread:
"Aaron Wolk
Any intervention by the orbitals might renew rifts earths interest in space exploration.
I don't know if the orbitals would risk more than covert action.

Patrick Mastrobuono
Well it's been Well it's been 30 years since Rifts started that storyline. In universe it might be time to shake things up. Especially since the Republicans might be doing that as well :P
But yeah keeping it covert would be the standard, the orbital st…See More

Aaron Wolk
I absolutely agree it's been too long since the orbital story began but I think it's down to the desperate shortage of raw materials in the early days. Coupled with limited population and knowledge base. They had to invent survival tech and work improving their orbitals before worrying about earth. Progress took a long time.
And when they finally had time to consider earths condition they probably freaked out and said Nope! #Anywherebutearth
Personally I think it'd be cool to see the orbitals expand into the solar system colonizing planets and establishing a solar nation while earth is on a slow burn.
They'd have to leave monitorships in orbit to make certain the earth freaks stayed in quarantine and very rarely an elite covert team might be sent to obtain resources and new tech as well as intel.
Other than that I don't know how much contact the orbitals would want with earth.

Mike Leonard
Mutants in Orbit as a crossover book was largely a TMNT&OS supplement. Pretty sure it’s fallen off Kev’s radar.

Kenneth McComber
Mike Leonard actually it was more Rifts than TMNT

Patrick Mastrobuono
Yeah that's what I was afraid of.

Kenneth McComber
I actually liked what they did in Mutants in Orbit. But I’ve never seen say a book was no longer canon so I’m sure it’s stands

Brian Hite
Well, unless some communication is established with the surface, they’ll look at the minion war as simply the most recent demon war, like the one between the NGR and Gargoyle Empire, Coalition and Tolkeen, Geoforont and The Celestial Kingdom vs. the Yama Kings and so forth. Only if the Minion war spilled out in to the moon or mars might the orbital community get involved realistically.

Patrick Mastrobuono
It could, that's what I'm saying, since this a significant incursion that could take over the planet (or universe as has been hinted at in the books) so to prevent that they'd start intervening.

Terry Tumahai
They need to put out a map of OUR shattered solar system, and an UPDATED rifts space source book or world book to show who are the new players in our system and the new threats that have taken system as their own.

Arthur Cherry
Always hated the mutants in orbit stuff and have never considered them a part of the Rifts Earth dimension. In our Earth, orbital space is owned by the Lunar Archie and his sat army. Last order contain earth. Stations died years ago due to lack of viability.

Aaron Wolk
Lunar Archie would be cool.
How would he overcome his limited creativity issue?

Patrick Mastrobuono
Eh, that's sounds good. One dimension, good villain. Good for a movie (made in the 70's?) But I think that would diminish the human ingenuity angle. And game wise, you need a diverse setting with different factions to give players something to explore.
Another angle? How about Lunar Archie is in control, keeping the human population on ice indefinitely. Like the Republican army right now. Or they're jacked into the Matrix. This time on the moon. Waiting to be released in better conditions?

Arthur Cherry
As per my own cannon there was a world wide "Archie" project, north america (robotics/artificial life) SA (Human-mutant genome project), Europe (psy-netics) Asia (geo-front tech), Lunar Archie and a few others that never really got past proto-type phase.
So far only the NA Archie has exceeded its programming, they were meant to work in concert with one another like different parts of the brain, meaning the Lunar Archie is still of limited function untill something changes"


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:55 pm
  

D-Bee

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So anyone does anyone have any other ideas?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:14 pm
  

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I always thought turning Rifts Mars into TMNT-style bughouse was a cop-out to save time and page-count, and something better could have been done with it.

Likewise, having the Rifts affect Venus might be a neat idea, with dimensional Rifts acting as heatsinks to siphon off Venus's massive heat and atmospheric pressure gradually....and some alien species discovering it and seeing it as an opportunity to try terraforming.


Though you don't want the Orbitals to get TOO powerful with expanded territory, otherwise they might feel confident enough to do something about Earth(cue arms race with the Splugorth), or a situation as in BattleAngel Alita/Gunn where you have these massively powerful techno-political blocs(uber-teched human warlords on Mars, transhumans on Jupiter, biotech splicers on Venus, nano goo on Mercury) and none of them seeming to want to take over little old Earth, where the savages are fighting amongst each other over the scraps thrown their way by the orbital beanstalk crews.

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Last edited by taalismn on Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:25 pm
  

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Doubtful they could tell. The over all numbers of demons and devils are small. Even the 'pits' aren't that big. They might might MIGHT be visable from space but would look like mining operations at best.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:13 pm
  

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In all honesty, IF they noticed, and IF they thought it might be a threat (CAN Republic might. I refuse to believe that ARCHIE-7 hasn't been alerting whoever is in charge that ARCHIE-3 has been using their satellites without their knowledge using pre-Rifts codes), I can easily see them using methods used in the novel 'The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress'.
Basically, big rocks dropped from orbit directly into the Hell Pits. The energy release is roughly equal to a nuke, and with the proper planning, every Hell Pit on Rifts Earth can be evaporated within an hour.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:32 pm
  

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wyrmraker wrote:
I refuse to believe that ARCHIE-7 hasn't been alerting whoever is in charge that ARCHIE-3 has been using their satellites without their knowledge using pre-Rifts codes


Begin Tangent: I see this misstated often. Archie-3 only has access to a single communication satellite. Not the entire constellation. (SB1r, p92 and Shem Nation, p32 & 33)

End Tangent

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:38 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Doubtful they could tell. The over all numbers of demons and devils are small. Even the 'pits' aren't that big. They might might MIGHT be visable from space but would look like mining operations at best.


That last part has a hurdle with Outcast station. They have mages, supernatural beings, and creatures of magic. WB35 states on page 23 that mages and most CoM will recognize hell pits under construction. Now how they would know when there's never been a history of them on Rifts Earth before eludes me. Personally I think that should be a role-played thing where the PCs come across one as it's being built, and they have to figure out what the demons/devils are up to, yadda-yadda-yadda, and then afterwards they'd know what to look for and all that, but that's not how it's written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:14 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Doubtful they could tell. The over all numbers of demons and devils are small. Even the 'pits' aren't that big. They might might MIGHT be visable from space but would look like mining operations at best.


That last part has a hurdle with Outcast station. They have mages, supernatural beings, and creatures of magic. WB35 states on page 23 that mages and most CoM will recognize hell pits under construction. Now how they would know when there's never been a history of them on Rifts Earth before eludes me. Personally I think that should be a role-played thing where the PCs come across one as it's being built, and they have to figure out what the demons/devils are up to, yadda-yadda-yadda, and then afterwards they'd know what to look for and all that, but that's not how it's written.


recognition is fine, but doing so from literal orbit? I find that kinda hard to believe. I mean you'd need to know where to look to even try and if its not under your orbital path...

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:40 am
  

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I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:54 am
  

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Rallan wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?


Rallan's right. -IF- they -are- watching and some how can see such things from their lofty positions. They've seen invasions of Demons and Devils for 100s of years, they've never interfered before. And now humanity is actually in a -better- position to handle it themselves than they have in the past. The Orbital community didn't sweep down during the 100s of years of dark ages. Why would they do so now with the upswing of the CS, NG, NGR, Russia (Warlords and Soviets) Etc ad infin. (There's a lot of power blocks out there now)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:03 am
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Rallan wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?


Rallan's right. -IF- they -are- watching and some how can see such things from their lofty positions. They've seen invasions of Demons and Devils for 100s of years, they've never interfered before. And now humanity is actually in a -better- position to handle it themselves than they have in the past. The Orbital community didn't sweep down during the 100s of years of dark ages. Why would they do so now with the upswing of the CS, NG, NGR, Russia (Warlords and Soviets) Etc ad infin. (There's a lot of power blocks out there now)


And their interest lies in *containing* Earth and its inhabitants, not assisting.

As long as the demon armies are on Earth and not swarming Freedom Station or any of the others, and the planet-dwellers don't try to enter orbit, I don't think they'd give a Xiticix's @$$ what was going on dirtside.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:13 am
  

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I'd imagine that any interest would be not from any of the major blocks as a whole, but from an independent group or groups looking to return to the planet.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:10 pm
  

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Well getting down isn't the hard part is it. It's just that due to major major mmmmmaaajor (and silly) Hand of god stuff, you can't get back up again.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:54 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Rallan wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?


Rallan's right. -IF- they -are- watching and some how can see such things from their lofty positions. They've seen invasions of Demons and Devils for 100s of years, they've never interfered before. And now humanity is actually in a -better- position to handle it themselves than they have in the past. The Orbital community didn't sweep down during the 100s of years of dark ages. Why would they do so now with the upswing of the CS, NG, NGR, Russia (Warlords and Soviets) Etc ad infin. (There's a lot of power blocks out there now)


They consider Rifts Earth to be such a ginormous existential threat that they've kept it quarantined for a few centuries even though its the richest source of water and hydrocarbons and heavy metals in the inner solar system, so I think it's a pretty safe assumption that they are watching pretty closely.

After all, extradimensional invasions might just be business as usual, but you've got to keep an eye on things just in case some of these horrors from another reality start trying to build rockets.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:13 am
  

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
That would be true if not for the deus ex machina that shreds any rockets being launched. (Which is absurd on the face of it but it's canon so we try and ignore it. To be honest I do my best to ignore the entire book)

At best they're eating popcorn and taking bets.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:43 pm
  

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I always wondered why the Orbital community never tried to contact some of the more advanced human Empires.
For information sharing and such.

Or a side group, obviously there has never been a player group in orbit ;) There is always someone out to seek a buck or to explore a frontier.

Some satellites today can see objects smaller than cars so I imagine they can see quite a bit from up there.


Course the out of game explanation is that once you have orbital weapons most of the big scary monster Empires are much less scary.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:35 pm
  

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Personally I think freedom and possibly laika would try contacting soon. The former would contact The CS while the latter the sovietskii.....and yuro might try the ngr.

Why? The ball spy in each other and on the CAN so who's to say one if not all getting wind of earthly transmissions (Archie 3) using a CAN comsat

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:55 am
  

D-Bee

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Some good reasons why they wouldn't bother. Too busy with their own troubles. But also really good points how a lot of it was a hand of god deus ex machina reason to keep things seperate.
But then you have Splurgoth, Naruni, and an insanely overpowered Megaversal Legion in South America which could easily break out of their quarantine. But I guess they wouldn't because of resource or machinations reasons. Except the Splurgoth could just do it to show their power.
Still, no one getting out is not the same thing as the Orbitals not interfering. They could easily drop people in when they felt a threat warranted it. Even if it was just a few teams with beacons to tell where the rock strike should land.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:24 am
  

D-Bee

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1. The orbitals first need to notice that something exceptional is going on. You have a view of the whole planet and satelites can do some highly detailed images, with Golden Age tech likely also from a higher Orbit, but earth is big and to see anything besides pristine wilderness you need to know when to look where, something the orbitals likely don't.
They most likely watch major CS, NGR and japanese cities to detect any attempt to start a space program, but war is constant in Rifts earth so a mobilization around the globe will most likely just seen as a coincidence.
Even if they happen to get a picture of a battle with a large deamon army, things like this have been going on for centuries. Even a hellpit won't be seen as abnormal. After all they would know of Atlantis because of the nighttime illumination it has, so nothing new either.
Most likely they would only notice something is going on if they can receive and listen to CS and Triax radio signals (can they?)
2. If they notice the Minion War, why should they care? After centuries of separation and viewing earth as a threat why should they start careing now?
3. If they decide to intervene, the question is how. The counter orbit field exists and to be effective it has to be pretty dense. So to get down they have to dismantle part of the field. Although I suppose if all debris in the field move at the same speed they could match that and glide through.
4. The Orbitals do not know that but despite their appearance the demons and devils are also space faring. So when they are attacked from orbit they will likely send up some orbital assets either by teleporting or rifting in some 3 galaxy assets. But I have no idea how well the orbitals are prepared for an extraterrestial invasion.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:45 am
  

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Satellites today can see objects smaller than cars I imagine that people paranoid about quarantining a planet with more advanced technology can see a lot better.
And mass mobilizations planet wide would be very watched. Because wars spur technological advancement and could direct attention up…

As for contacting the Earth:

Take a house with a teenager or two in it. Tell them that they can’t use the internet.
One of them figures out that with a tv remote and an android box they can start a browser and from there to social media. (true story)

Take tens of thousands of teens, social outcasts and criminals and tell them, you can’t contact Earth.

Every single one of them is going to listen? For hundreds of years? Um no…
At the very least spy agencies on the orbitals are listening in to radio (and other) chatter.



Rifts Mars: My home brew had some humans surviving in underground bunkers and some being nomadic, they could coexist, run from or control the bugs. I didn’t get far into it because it never got played. But I did borrow some of the ideas to use in Invid Genesis pits.


Around IO I had Von Neuman machines building stuff and learning on their own.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:49 am
  

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hbrika wrote:
I always wondered why the Orbital community never tried to contact some of the more advanced human Empires.
For information sharing and such.


A lot of it is based on the conceit that the major powers of Rifts Earth haven't detected the Orbital nations yet, and they don't want to blow their cover by telling anyone on the surface that they exist.

Which makes absolutely zero sense if you stop and think about it for more than five seconds, but that's just the way the setting's written.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:10 am
  

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One thing that i always crazy about the whole setup the writers made for Mars is that, if the martian canals were ley lines, it would mean 19th century astronomers could see martian ley line activity from Earth and that the planet was going through a PPE surge of Rifts or Chaos Earth proportions, if not higher.

So, i ran with it - in the not so distant past, Mars was inhabitated, different from Earth but full of life and conflict in its own way, until the time came, at some point between 1700s-1800s, when the martian civilizations went through a cycle of conflicts which brought their own doom, sparking a Chaos Earth event of sorts, not through nuclear weaponry, but massive (ab)use of chemical and bacteriological weapons, resulting in a much more extensive (and uncontrollable) decimation - rifts may send fallout to other dimensions, but not solve mustard gas or chlorine damage, much less stopped local equivalents of spanish flu & smallpox

Waves of invaders, refugees and monsters settled in amidst all the destruction, martians and D-bees, those that could escape the poison clouds, monster bands and ever more brutal ecological and weather changes, would find survival through either debasement to the most powerful supernatural horrors or hiding, forming emergency shelters, bunkers or delving in the deepest caves they could.

Eventually life and civilization dissappeared from the face of Mars and cold & desertification settled in, producing Mars as the people of Earth would know, its dead native cities unknown and unseen, buried under centuries of massive, sometimes continent-sized, dust storms.

Until a new upsurge of Rifts came, hitting a much larger swathe of the solar system due to the planetary alignement, bringing ghost cities back to life - sometimes true, sometimes mere memories or outright alien mockery - and rousing the sleeping horrors that preyed or enslaved the remnants of the last martians back to the surface, to answer the siren call of a new spring of magic.

And spark hunting season for the predators to engorge in atrocity - time for the sands to run redder than ever. :twisted:


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:31 am
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
One thing that i always crazy about the whole setup the writers made for Mars is that, if the martian canals were ley lines, it would mean 19th century astronomers could see martian ley line activity from Earth and that the planet was going through a PPE surge of Rifts or Chaos Earth proportions, if not higher.

So, i ran with it - in the not so distant past, Mars was inhabitated, different from Earth but full of life and conflict in its own way, until the time came, at some point between 1700s-1800s, when the martian civilizations went through a cycle of conflicts which brought their own doom, sparking a Chaos Earth event of sorts, not through nuclear weaponry, but massive (ab)use of chemical and bacteriological weapons, resulting in a much more extensive (and uncontrollable) decimation - rifts may send fallout to other dimensions, but not solve mustard gas or chlorine damage, much less stopped local equivalents of spanish flu & smallpox

Waves of invaders, refugees and monsters settled in amidst all the destruction, martians and D-bees, those that could escape the poison clouds, monster bands and ever more brutal ecological and weather changes, would find survival through either debasement to the most powerful supernatural horrors or hiding, forming emergency shelters, bunkers or delving in the deepest caves they could.

Eventually life and civilization dissappeared from the face of Mars and cold & desertification settled in, producing Mars as the people of Earth would know, its dead native cities unknown and unseen, buried under centuries of massive, sometimes continent-sized, dust storms.

Until a new upsurge of Rifts came, hitting a much larger swathe of the solar system due to the planetary alignement, bringing ghost cities back to life - sometimes true, sometimes mere memories or outright alien mockery - and rousing the sleeping horrors that preyed or enslaved the remnants of the last martian back to the surface to answer the call of a new spring of magic.

And a hunting season for the predators to engorge in atrocity - time for the sands to run redder than ever. :twisted:

I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:22 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?


The Monsters of Mars were a mixed a number of (mostly) familiar noteworthies amidst the new/homebrew.

One thing i had decided early on was that their own armageddon had not been atomic and from there went with the idea of a "World War I gone worse" cities ravaged by chemical bombardment and plague, their cities slowly overtaken by sandstorms as the enviroment changed and a number of them abandoned in preference for better hidden and more defensible underground shelters.

It all gave me a sort of 19th, early 20th century vibe, "Ozymandias" and "the Mummy" meets "The Time Machine" so to speak. For some reason that imagery connected with Beyond the Supernatural for me, so i made the critters between pages 171-191 of the Conversion Book into my "core of familiarity" on Rifts Mars: banshees, boschalas, dybbuks, dimensional ghouls, Dar'ota, Goqua, Sowky, pretty much everything there except for Gargoyles that i felt were a little too familiar even. Also made "Mindolar Death Weavers" as a kind ultimate creepy-crawlie combo monster, along with some mix-&-matching among the various types of Entities and Ghouls (dimensional, grave, dibbuk) for a little unpredictability and to amp the occasional phantasmagoric vibe.

To this i added some subterranean or earth manipulating races from many sources - Dwarves, Kobolds, Maxpary & Night Stalker dragons from Conversion Book, Err'ta from Atlantis & Pucara Red Giants from South America 2 - to give that "buried worlds below" vibe a little push. In the end also added some "Gurgoyle Mages" who made crystal/stone implants for themselves, their allies and sometimes favored slaves, exiled from other Gargoyle groups for some ancient grievance even they only vaguely remembered.

And to round out things for all my random monster race making needs, i combined the "Quick Roll Monsters" tables from pages 249-252 of the RMB with the "Special Mutations and Abilities" table of the Gigantes, on page 96 of the Conversion Book.

The one actual change i did was to the bonuses of the size table.

Size - Roll once or select one wrote:
01-10 - Five feet tall (1.5 m), equal to a small human.
11-20 - Six feet tall (1.8 m), equal to typical human.
21-30 - Seven feet tall (2.1 m), equal to a tall human.
31-40 - 10 feet tall (3 m), giant.
41-70 - 12-15 feet tall (3.6-4.5 m); multiply base M.D.C. by 2.
71-90 - 18-20 feet tall (5.4-6.1 m); multiply base M.D.C. by 3.
91-97 - 22 feet tall (6.7 m); multiply base M.D.C. by 5.
98-00 - 25 feet tall (7.6 m); multiply base M.D.C. by 10.


edit: Almost forgot. i wanted some sort of ancient, indirect but nebulous link between Earth & Mars and my weird of doing so was by maaking the native martians Ogres and playing with the "ogres as neanderthals" bit from some older books. Considering how PB's Ogres can be quite intelligent but prone to excesses of emotion, brutality and passion, it goes well with their civilization's end i guess.

(that said, while biologically the same, martians do not identify themselves as Ogres, speak a number native idioms their own instead of the "ogre language" from Palladium and some might treat Ogres the way the average Coalition citizen would a human-seeming Dbees. it all depends on the particular enclave and situation)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:04 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
edit: Almost forgot. i wanted some sort of ancient, indirect but nebulous link between Earth & Mars and my weird of doing so was by maaking the native martians Ogres and playing with the "ogres as neanderthals" bit from some older books. Considering how PB's Ogres can be quite intelligent but prone to excesses of emotion, brutality and passion, it goes well with their civilization's end i guess.

(that said, while biologically the same, martians do not identify themselves as Ogres, speak a number native idioms their own instead of the "ogre language" from Palladium and some might treat Ogres the way the average Coalition citizen would a human-seeming Dbees. it all depends on the particular enclave and situation)

Using Ogres would really subvert expectations. I mean most people would expect Martians to be more advanced than humans so making them Ogres would really throw people. Keeping the tech to WWI level would do much the same.

Did you have any surviving Martian Ogres or was it an entirely dead race? Were they native to Mars or Dimensional transplants?

Every now and then I run into an idea on here that I really wish I had 20 or so years ago. This is definitely one of them

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:45 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
edit: Almost forgot. i wanted some sort of ancient, indirect but nebulous link between Earth & Mars and my weird of doing so was by maaking the native martians Ogres and playing with the "ogres as neanderthals" bit from some older books. Considering how PB's Ogres can be quite intelligent but prone to excesses of emotion, brutality and passion, it goes well with their civilization's end i guess.

(that said, while biologically the same, martians do not identify themselves as Ogres, speak a number native idioms their own instead of the "ogre language" from Palladium and some might treat Ogres the way the average Coalition citizen would a human-seeming Dbees. it all depends on the particular enclave and situation)

Using Ogres would really subvert expectations. I mean most people would expect Martians to be more advanced than humans so making them Ogres would really throw people. Keeping the tech to WWI level would do much the same.


Yes, the fun is in the contrast - they might not be as advanced as the typical space opera martian, but early 20th century is what some communities on Rifts Earth itself have, so, no slouchs either and a damn sight better than the typical ogre from Palladium and other parts of the Megaverse. That said, it wasn't wholy equal to early 20th century, more a rough equivalent, worse in some areas, much more advanced in others.

Also, that was their techno-scientific know-how before their two rifts cycles, things were lost, others were gained in the chaotic centuries between both cataclysm and the rebirth of sorts after it.

Warshield73 wrote:
Did you have any surviving Martian Ogres or was it an entirely dead race? Were they native to Mars or Dimensional transplants?


Yes, the native martians are still alive in enclaves here and there, many as slaves to the monsters, but not all - the terraformation by humanity and Time of Rifts have been a mixed blessing to them, as the surface has become inhabitable again (even though they have to compete or deal with humans settlers or new arrivals ported by rifts) and also become a welcome distraction to the monstrous overlords of many.

About origins, that is vague - they are somehow compatible with humans what would seem to indicate not native, but can one say for sure in the Megaverse that humans themselves are native from earth and not the result of one or more dimensional transplants or migrations at some point hundreds of thousands of years in the past?

That said, i have the idea that the 3 most spoken languages among the martian remnant enclaves (the American, Euro & chinese of their people, so to speak), show a number of commonalities with Atlantean, Lemurian and Nazca and might be understood (with some penalty) by individuals versed on these.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:58 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?


This touches on one of my biggest beefs with the MiO setting: that the outer planets are all completely untouched even though in the setting as written it would be insanely easy for the orbital community to get out there and start exploiting resources.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:39 am
  

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Rallan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?


This touches on one of my biggest beefs with the MiO setting: that the outer planets are all completely untouched even though in the setting as written it would be insanely easy for the orbital community to get out there and start exploiting resources.


That...i wouldn't say that with so much certainty. The scales of distance of interplanetary travel in relation to just travel between the orbitals or from the orbitals to the moon differs in orders of magnitude. Just Mars, depending on position in planetary alignement, can be 0,5-1,5 AU from Earth, read, 240-720 times the distance covered in a orbit-moon trip.

The span toward any other celestial body with the exception of Venus (that is quite hazardous as an enviroment to most life forms Earth, among other things being so hot lead's natural state on the planet is liquid) or the occasional asteroid or comet doing a tour of the system.

Most (almost all) of the space exploration literature, fiction or non-fiction, has a terrible, terrible tendency to gloss over if not outright ignore how utterly ludricous the scales of distance involved, or more precisely how pittifully tiny the stretch we have actually reached is in relation to it and the extra pitfalls resulting from planetary alignement through time.

That said, just the Earth-Moon range and asteroids & comets as wandering sources of a number of materials can lead to a lot of stories around investigation of their movements, arrangement of expeditions, disputes between mining teams from a number of communities (not to speak of possible rival interests from the same community), disputes over land rights in the Moon and more. It can be a quite respectable sandbox to play into too.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:45 am
  

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Rallan wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?


Yeah, I agree.

I mean, they already consider it to be so dangerously demon-infested that they've blockaded it.
So it's kinda like asking,
"If people quarantined a city because of ebola, what would they do if EVEN MORE EBOLA broke out in the quarantine zone?"

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:36 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rallan wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?


Yeah, I agree.

I mean, they already consider it to be so dangerously demon-infested that they've blockaded it.
So it's kinda like asking,
"If people quarantined a city because of ebola, what would they do if EVEN MORE EBOLA broke out in the quarantine zone?"


True. As long as the weirdness restricts itself to the surface, they have little to no reason to care (except for any non-conformist groups snooping and stealthly messing with Earth against the law of their respective authorities).

Now, if the weirdness comes to orbit - there were some stories of derelict or irregular stations in ley lines or nexuses in the book, i think - now that is a whole different matter, specially if some sort of connection (time to show your actual value, secret snoopers) between events is established....


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:22 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
edit: Almost forgot. i wanted some sort of ancient, indirect but nebulous link between Earth & Mars and my weird of doing so was by maaking the native martians Ogres and playing with the "ogres as neanderthals" bit from some older books. Considering how PB's Ogres can be quite intelligent but prone to excesses of emotion, brutality and passion, it goes well with their civilization's end i guess.

(that said, while biologically the same, martians do not identify themselves as Ogres, speak a number native idioms their own instead of the "ogre language" from Palladium and some might treat Ogres the way the average Coalition citizen would a human-seeming Dbees. it all depends on the particular enclave and situation)

Using Ogres would really subvert expectations. I mean most people would expect Martians to be more advanced than humans so making them Ogres would really throw people. Keeping the tech to WWI level would do much the same.


Yes, the fun is in the contrast - they might not be as advanced as the typical space opera martian, but early 20th century is what some communities on Rifts Earth itself have, so, no slouchs either and a damn sight better than the typical ogre from Palladium and other parts of the Megaverse. That said, it wasn't wholy equal to early 20th century, more a rough equivalent, worse in some areas, much more advanced in others.

Also, that was their techno-scientific know-how before their two rifts cycles, things were lost, others were gained in the chaotic centuries between both cataclysm and the rebirth of sorts after it.

Warshield73 wrote:
Did you have any surviving Martian Ogres or was it an entirely dead race? Were they native to Mars or Dimensional transplants?


Yes, the native martians are still alive in enclaves here and there, many as slaves to the monsters, but not all - the terraformation by humanity and Time of Rifts have been a mixed blessing to them, as the surface has become inhabitable again (even though they have to compete or deal with humans settlers or new arrivals ported by rifts) and also become a welcome distraction to the monstrous overlords of many.

About origins, that is vague - they are somehow compatible with humans what would seem to indicate not native, but can one say for sure in the Megaverse that humans themselves are native from earth and not the result of one or more dimensional transplants or migrations at some point hundreds of thousands of years in the past?

That said, i have the idea that the 3 most spoken languages among the martian remnant enclaves (the American, Euro & chinese of their people, so to speak), show a number of commonalities with Atlantean, Lemurian and Nazca and might be understood (with some penalty) by individuals versed on these.

So did you have them active during Pre-Rifts? Where they ever discovered by Golden Age Humans? This is pretty interesting.

Where there demon kingdoms active in the time before the Rifts? If Mars was habitable in ancient times did Atlanteans visit it before the fall of Atlantis? Are the Pyramids of Mars actual pyramids?

Are these actual Ogres or Neanderthals? Not sure if there is difference but just curious.

Where are these enclaves, are they all underground or in mountains?

Rallan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?


This touches on one of my biggest beefs with the MiO setting: that the outer planets are all completely untouched even though in the setting as written it would be insanely easy for the orbital community to get out there and start exploiting resources.

To be fare if the first space stations are just going up a few decades before the coming of the Rifts I'm not sure if they would have time to get big colonies set up in the outer planets. As for the existing stations exploiting the outer planets it's not that easy. They need the resources from the outer planets but the expense of getting out there is really high. So I see why it was set up that way. Also, there just wasn't the sci-fi interest in the outer planets that we see now.

The biggest problem has always been that Rifts Space was just tacked on to an After the Bomb book.

If anyone ever rewrites Rifts Space I think we will see lots of things in the outer planets and we will see the community spread out more. Most of the stations are in Earth orbit or at the Earth-Moon Lagrange points. I could see a new set up making use of not just the Outer Planets but also the Sol-Earth Lagrange points.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:30 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rallan wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the orbital community's response is "eh".

Because really, from their perspective there's probably nothing special going on at the moment Before the Demon Invasion kicked off there were already at least one or two dozen relatively important empires of extra-dimensional invaders on Rifts Earth, most of which were in extended wars with the nearest human nations. Who knows how many dozens of other invasions they've seen in the three or four centuries since the coming of the Rifts, or how many times they've watched reemerging human civilisations get wiped off the map?


Yeah, I agree.

I mean, they already consider it to be so dangerously demon-infested that they've blockaded it.
So it's kinda like asking,
"If people quarantined a city because of ebola, what would they do if EVEN MORE EBOLA broke out in the quarantine zone?"


True. As long as the weirdness restricts itself to the surface, they have little to no reason to care (except for any non-conformist groups snooping and stealthly messing with Earth against the law of their respective authorities).

Now, if the weirdness comes to orbit - there were some stories of derelict or irregular stations in ley lines or nexuses in the book, i think - now that is a whole different matter, specially if some sort of connection (time to show your actual value, secret snoopers) between events is established....

I think this is largely true. If it is confined to Earth then no big deal. If demons similar to or identical to the ones on Earth start pouring out of the rifts on the Luna or Mars then they may start to notice.

I think if a demon ship or two arrive through a rift then they will really start to notice.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:04 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
edit: Almost forgot. i wanted some sort of ancient, indirect but nebulous link between Earth & Mars and my weird of doing so was by maaking the native martians Ogres and playing with the "ogres as neanderthals" bit from some older books. Considering how PB's Ogres can be quite intelligent but prone to excesses of emotion, brutality and passion, it goes well with their civilization's end i guess.

(that said, while biologically the same, martians do not identify themselves as Ogres, speak a number native idioms their own instead of the "ogre language" from Palladium and some might treat Ogres the way the average Coalition citizen would a human-seeming Dbees. it all depends on the particular enclave and situation)

Using Ogres would really subvert expectations. I mean most people would expect Martians to be more advanced than humans so making them Ogres would really throw people. Keeping the tech to WWI level would do much the same.


Yes, the fun is in the contrast - they might not be as advanced as the typical space opera martian, but early 20th century is what some communities on Rifts Earth itself have, so, no slouchs either and a damn sight better than the typical ogre from Palladium and other parts of the Megaverse. That said, it wasn't wholy equal to early 20th century, more a rough equivalent, worse in some areas, much more advanced in others.

Also, that was their techno-scientific know-how before their two rifts cycles, things were lost, others were gained in the chaotic centuries between both cataclysm and the rebirth of sorts after it.

Warshield73 wrote:
Did you have any surviving Martian Ogres or was it an entirely dead race? Were they native to Mars or Dimensional transplants?


Yes, the native martians are still alive in enclaves here and there, many as slaves to the monsters, but not all - the terraformation by humanity and Time of Rifts have been a mixed blessing to them, as the surface has become inhabitable again (even though they have to compete or deal with humans settlers or new arrivals ported by rifts) and also become a welcome distraction to the monstrous overlords of many.

About origins, that is vague - they are somehow compatible with humans what would seem to indicate not native, but can one say for sure in the Megaverse that humans themselves are native from earth and not the result of one or more dimensional transplants or migrations at some point hundreds of thousands of years in the past?

That said, i have the idea that the 3 most spoken languages among the martian remnant enclaves (the American, Euro & chinese of their people, so to speak), show a number of commonalities with Atlantean, Lemurian and Nazca and might be understood (with some penalty) by individuals versed on these.

So did you have them active during Pre-Rifts? Where they ever discovered by Golden Age Humans? This is pretty interesting.

Where there demon kingdoms active in the time before the Rifts? If Mars was habitable in ancient times did Atlanteans visit it before the fall of Atlantis? Are the Pyramids of Mars actual pyramids?

Are these actual Ogres or Neanderthals? Not sure if there is difference but just curious.

Where are these enclaves, are they all underground or in mountains?


The martians were active, but living in underground hideouts, some of the buried by centuries of sand, what made detection or contact on the part of either side complicated. The "Demon Kingdoms" were even more secretive, as the ambient PPE being in all-time low ebb made the monsters between lethargic and more dependent than ever on preying on mortals to remain energic and in control.

The Golden Age Humans were pretty much unaware, though rumors of ill-luck, "the curse of Mars against terraformers" and a number of superstitions of varying degree of correctedness would develop - a few might have found signs, but if so kept it as mostly secret intelligence for their respective governments, specially if some of those accidental discoveries led into supernatural encounters. So, pretty much left as vague hooks in case i ever wanted to make some kind of Ghost of Mars schlocky fun futuristic BtS games.

Truth of the matter is that i have yet to seriously GM any part of this thing to see where it takes me, but must admit that going "BtS IN SPAAACE" with a Ghost of Mars-style setup to start things and then go full-on Carpenterpocalypse as the big surge from Chaos Earth also hits them and makes everything more alive and dangerous is very, very tempting indeed.

Warshield73 wrote:
Rallan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?


This touches on one of my biggest beefs with the MiO setting: that the outer planets are all completely untouched even though in the setting as written it would be insanely easy for the orbital community to get out there and start exploiting resources.

To be fare if the first space stations are just going up a few decades before the coming of the Rifts I'm not sure if they would have time to get big colonies set up in the outer planets. As for the existing stations exploiting the outer planets it's not that easy. They need the resources from the outer planets but the expense of getting out there is really high. So I see why it was set up that way. Also, there just wasn't the sci-fi interest in the outer planets that we see now.

The biggest problem has always been that Rifts Space was just tacked on to an After the Bomb book.

If anyone ever rewrites Rifts Space I think we will see lots of things in the outer planets and we will see the community spread out more. Most of the stations are in Earth orbit or at the Earth-Moon Lagrange points. I could see a new set up making use of not just the Outer Planets but also the Sol-Earth Lagrange points.


Honestly, i have nothing against Rifts Space limiting itself mostly to the inner system and asteroids. The real issue is presenting it in entertaining, well-thought light that does not break the core setting apart. Part of the reason i set up my version of Mars the way i did, making contacts between planets more probable through random rift than spaceship.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:30 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Rallan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I love this idea. One of my biggest disappointments when I was running my campaign is I did almost nothing with Mars. I went right to the outer planets and put lots of stuff around Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is so iconic could have done anything with it. What kind of monsters did you have their?


This touches on one of my biggest beefs with the MiO setting: that the outer planets are all completely untouched even though in the setting as written it would be insanely easy for the orbital community to get out there and start exploiting resources.


That...i wouldn't say that with so much certainty. The scales of distance of interplanetary travel in relation to just travel between the orbitals or from the orbitals to the moon differs in orders of magnitude. Just Mars, depending on position in planetary alignement, can be 0,5-1,5 AU from Earth, read, 240-720 times the distance covered in a orbit-moon trip.

The span toward any other celestial body with the exception of Venus (that is quite hazardous as an enviroment to most life forms Earth, among other things being so hot lead's natural state on the planet is liquid) or the occasional asteroid or comet doing a tour of the system.

Most (almost all) of the space exploration literature, fiction or non-fiction, has a terrible, terrible tendency to gloss over if not outright ignore how utterly ludricous the scales of distance involved, or more precisely how pittifully tiny the stretch we have actually reached is in relation to it and the extra pitfalls resulting from planetary alignement through time.

That said, just the Earth-Moon range and asteroids & comets as wandering sources of a number of materials can lead to a lot of stories around investigation of their movements, arrangement of expeditions, disputes between mining teams from a number of communities (not to speak of possible rival interests from the same community), disputes over land rights in the Moon and more. It can be a quite respectable sandbox to play into too.


It's all about traction drives.

Without them then yeah, scale is a big deal and the travel times for going any further out than Mars or the Main Belt become hella prohibitive.

But with them, even the Oort Cloud is only a few weeks or months away. Kevin and co just don't seem to have realised what an absolute game changer constant acceleration is.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:11 pm
  

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Agreed, if you have the cash and get a traction drive together with a self sustaining ship it’s a whole other ball game.

I always imagined that there were still some stations and outposts in the outer solar system, abandoned or maybe not.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:29 pm
  

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hbrika wrote:
Agreed, if you have the cash and get a traction drive together with a self sustaining ship it’s a whole other ball game.

I always imagined that there were still some stations and outposts in the outer solar system, abandoned or maybe not.


The self-sustaining part, both in power and life support points, is where things can get really complex, i guess...


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:19 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
hbrika wrote:
Agreed, if you have the cash and get a traction drive together with a self sustaining ship it’s a whole other ball game.

I always imagined that there were still some stations and outposts in the outer solar system, abandoned or maybe not.


The self-sustaining part, both in power and life support points, is where things can get really complex, i guess...


That all becomes trivial when resupply ships can get from Orbit to literally anywhere in the solar system in a matter of days or weeks. Suddenly you can have outposts anywhere from the moons of Jupiter to the comets and asteroids of the Kuiper Belt, and none of them have to permanently self-sufficient.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:42 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Rallan wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
hbrika wrote:
Agreed, if you have the cash and get a traction drive together with a self sustaining ship it’s a whole other ball game.

I always imagined that there were still some stations and outposts in the outer solar system, abandoned or maybe not.


The self-sustaining part, both in power and life support points, is where things can get really complex, i guess...


That all becomes trivial when resupply ships can get from Orbit to literally anywhere in the solar system in a matter of days or weeks. Suddenly you can have outposts anywhere from the moons of Jupiter to the comets and asteroids of the Kuiper Belt, and none of them have to permanently self-sufficient.

Traction Drives still take a long time to get to the outer system. At least according to canon, homebrew rules can change this of course.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:33 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Traction Drives still take a long time to get to the outer system. At least according to canon, homebrew rules can change this of course.


The canon says that they accelerate at 1G indefinitely and could reach the speed of light in about a year, which is about right if you do the math. This sounds pretty underwhelming since in real life even the wimpiest of rockets designed to put stuff into low Earth orbit pull considerably more Gs than that, but it adds up frighteningly fast.

And by frighteningly fast, I mean if you accelerate nonstop for the first half of your journey and brake for the back half you can cover the distance from the Sun to Jupiter's orbit in about six and a half days.

Or to Saturn in about nine days.

Or Pluto in about eighteen days.

Or the inside edge of the Oort Cloud in a bit under four and a half months (if you're willing to risk accidentally running into a chunk of space rock at a fifth of the speed of light, which might encourage space pilots to take a slightly more leisurely cruise if they plan on covering this kind of distance).

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:12 am
  

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Rallan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Traction Drives still take a long time to get to the outer system. At least according to canon, homebrew rules can change this of course.


The canon says that they accelerate at 1G indefinitely and could reach the speed of light in about a year, which is about right if you do the math. This sounds pretty underwhelming since in real life even the wimpiest of rockets designed to put stuff into low Earth orbit pull considerably more Gs than that, but it adds up frighteningly fast.

And by frighteningly fast, I mean if you accelerate nonstop for the first half of your journey and brake for the back half you can cover the distance from the Sun to Jupiter's orbit in about six and a half days.

Or to Saturn in about nine days.

Or Pluto in about eighteen days.

Or the inside edge of the Oort Cloud in a bit under four and a half months (if you're willing to risk accidentally running into a chunk of space rock at a fifth of the speed of light, which might encourage space pilots to take a slightly more leisurely cruise if they plan on covering this kind of distance).


It sound great indeed and it has been some time since i laast hit the book on that subject, but i would imagine too possible issues would be having reaction mass reserves to spend for days or weeks (not to say months) nonstop, beside the possible material fatigue involved in the process due to such prolongued stress.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:23 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Rallan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Traction Drives still take a long time to get to the outer system. At least according to canon, homebrew rules can change this of course.


The canon says that they accelerate at 1G indefinitely and could reach the speed of light in about a year, which is about right if you do the math. This sounds pretty underwhelming since in real life even the wimpiest of rockets designed to put stuff into low Earth orbit pull considerably more Gs than that, but it adds up frighteningly fast.

And by frighteningly fast, I mean if you accelerate nonstop for the first half of your journey and brake for the back half you can cover the distance from the Sun to Jupiter's orbit in about six and a half days.

Or to Saturn in about nine days.

Or Pluto in about eighteen days.

Or the inside edge of the Oort Cloud in a bit under four and a half months (if you're willing to risk accidentally running into a chunk of space rock at a fifth of the speed of light, which might encourage space pilots to take a slightly more leisurely cruise if they plan on covering this kind of distance).


It sound great indeed and it has been some time since i laast hit the book on that subject, but i would imagine too possible issues would be having reaction mass reserves to spend for days or weeks (not to say months) nonstop, beside the possible material fatigue involved in the process due to such prolongued stress.

I believe the way that Traction is described it is a strictly an energy based drive so I don't think reaction mass is an issue. Material fatigue I think might be an issue but 1G of acceleration just isn't that much. Passenger jets pull more than that on takeoff and landing.

Now there will be issues with micro meteor strikes and once you get going fast enough even dust could do enormous damage, in fact this is always how I justified limiting the speed of spacecraft. Now I think the bigger picture for long range travel at near light speed would be the effects of magic. What happens to ship at near light speed that flies through a nexus point or near a ley line storm?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:24 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Rallan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Traction Drives still take a long time to get to the outer system. At least according to canon, homebrew rules can change this of course.


The canon says that they accelerate at 1G indefinitely and could reach the speed of light in about a year, which is about right if you do the math. This sounds pretty underwhelming since in real life even the wimpiest of rockets designed to put stuff into low Earth orbit pull considerably more Gs than that, but it adds up frighteningly fast.

And by frighteningly fast, I mean if you accelerate nonstop for the first half of your journey and brake for the back half you can cover the distance from the Sun to Jupiter's orbit in about six and a half days.

Or to Saturn in about nine days.

Or Pluto in about eighteen days.

Or the inside edge of the Oort Cloud in a bit under four and a half months (if you're willing to risk accidentally running into a chunk of space rock at a fifth of the speed of light, which might encourage space pilots to take a slightly more leisurely cruise if they plan on covering this kind of distance).


It sound great indeed and it has been some time since i laast hit the book on that subject, but i would imagine too possible issues would be having reaction mass reserves to spend for days or weeks (not to say months) nonstop, beside the possible material fatigue involved in the process due to such prolongued stress.

I believe the way that Traction is described it is a strictly an energy based drive so I don't think reaction mass is an issue. Material fatigue I think might be an issue but 1G of acceleration just isn't that much. Passenger jets pull more than that on takeoff and landing.


For 2+ weeks straight nonstop, without pauses? That's a whole kind of different animal in relation to any vehicles or machinery pieces we produce or standards we have tested them against, you know.... :eek:

Warshield73 wrote:
Now there will be issues with micro meteor strikes and once you get going fast enough even dust could do enormous damage, in fact this is always how I justified limiting the speed of spacecraft. Now I think the bigger picture for long range travel at near light speed would be the effects of magic. What happens to ship at near light speed that flies through a nexus point or near a ley line storm?


Adventure!!!! :D

More seriously now, probably much less of an issue before the Time of Rifts. After it, one more incentive to play it safe and keep to familiar routes when it comes to space traveling.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:26 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
It sound great indeed and it has been some time since i laast hit the book on that subject, but i would imagine too possible issues would be having reaction mass reserves to spend for days or weeks (not to say months) nonstop, beside the possible material fatigue involved in the process due to such prolongued stress.


There isn't any. It just uses Sufficiently Advanced Technology to impart a force directly on the ship (or maybe directly on the fabric of spacetime, the description's a bit vague).

And also the "prolonged stress" is barely worth mentioning, because it's just 1G, which is exactly the same acceleration that everything on Earth experiences 24/7. If you can build an office building that doesn't collapse then you can build a spaceship capable of running a traction drive.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:11 pm
  

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Rallan wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
For 2+ weeks straight nonstop, without pauses? That's a whole kind of different animal in relation to any vehicles or machinery pieces we produce or standards we have tested them against, you know....


SolCannibal wrote:
It sound great indeed and it has been some time since i laast hit the book on that subject, but i would imagine too possible issues would be having reaction mass reserves to spend for days or weeks (not to say months) nonstop, beside the possible material fatigue involved in the process due to such prolongued stress.


There isn't any. It just uses Sufficiently Advanced Technology to impart a force directly on the ship (or maybe directly on the fabric of spacetime, the description's a bit vague).

And also the "prolonged stress" is barely worth mentioning, because it's just 1G, which is exactly the same acceleration that everything on Earth experiences 24/7. If you can build an office building that doesn't collapse then you can build a spaceship capable of running a traction drive.

If this was a drive that required moving parts or burning fuel, like say an Epstein drive, then stress might be an issue. Traction drives though just generate a field pull the ship along, no physical anchoring point to wear down. We also have to remember that this is MDC material so it already can withstand a lot.

Again most of the problems would be impacts on the hull and in the reactor itself.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:25 am
  

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And the navigation. You could reach the orbit of Pluto only to find that it's 250 years away. Since energy is infinite in Rifts you can afford some lack of precision, but you still have to know quite narrowly where the target will be at all times in the future so that you know it'll be there when you get there.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:31 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
One of the biggest problems here is that a micrometeor strike at full speed on a trip to Jupiter is going to do a heck of a lot of damage.
How much damage?
Well a 20lb KK weapon moving at only Mach 2 does 3d6 MD
That starts to give you some idea of the dangers of hitting a rock at several hundred times that speed...

The speed for a Traction Drive is also iffy.
While it says it can reach the speed of light in a year... it ALSO gives the drive a speed class of 28-30. Which means that one of the two texts doesn't line up... either it has unlimited speed, or it has a speed cap.
And I will note that one of them is in the speed line and one is in the range line for the stats...

Now sure, you can make a ruling that the drive doesn't really have a speed class cap of 30 and instead has unlimited speed... but that isn't technically what the books say, which is why the setting isn't set up that way.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:57 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
One of the biggest problems here is that a micrometeor strike at full speed on a trip to Jupiter is going to do a heck of a lot of damage.
How much damage?
Well a 20lb KK weapon moving at only Mach 2 does 3d6 MD
That starts to give you some idea of the dangers of hitting a rock at several hundred times that speed...

This is the reason that I have always given to my players for a speed limit in Rifts. As speed increases your ability to maneuver and your time to react to objects that might strike your ship are reduced. As you move into a percentage of C any impact will do MD.

Now, I think we do have to keep in mind that the 20 lb. KK is made of MD materials while most micrometers are little more than dust. A 20 lb. piece of space debris is not going to do 2D6 MDC if you hit it at Mach 2 or even Mach 10. I believe that I started 1D4 MD at Mach 10 for 100 lb.

eliakon wrote:
The speed for a Traction Drive is also iffy.
While it says it can reach the speed of light in a year... it ALSO gives the drive a speed class of 28-30. Which means that one of the two texts doesn't line up... either it has unlimited speed, or it has a speed cap.
And I will note that one of them is in the speed line and one is in the range line for the stats...

Now sure, you can make a ruling that the drive doesn't really have a speed class cap of 30 and instead has unlimited speed... but that isn't technically what the books say, which is why the setting isn't set up that way.

Yeah I never knew what to make of this as all the speeds are WAY too low so the inconsistency in TD is the least of it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:17 pm
  

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Natasha wrote:
And the navigation. You could reach the orbit of Pluto only to find that it's 250 years away. Since energy is infinite in Rifts you can afford some lack of precision, but you still have to know quite narrowly where the target will be at all times in the future so that you know it'll be there when you get there.

I just don't think navigation is going to be that big of problem. There is little technical difference in getting from Earth to Mars as getting from Earth to the former Pluto. If the Orbital Community has the ability to find and mine asteroids they can do the navigation.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:56 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
There is little technical difference in getting from Earth to Mars as getting from Earth to the former Pluto..


i mean, we don't call it a planet anymore, but it's still named pluto.....

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