Nekira Sudacne wrote:Looks to me like that line was a bit of fluff written by someone who forgot Imps can dimensionally teleport.
I don't think so, this actually immediately follows this text which I hadn't printed from Dyval60:
Dimensional teleport is a paltry 10% + 1% per level of experience, which means Imps typically rely on others to take them from one world to another. That also means an Imp deserter...
Plus I think prior to Gleba's rewrite they didn't even have a dimensional teleport ability. I don't see one listed on page 330 of PF2, for example, whereas on preceding pages most other lesser Dyvalians (Gorgons 329, Fiends and Fenry 328, Deevils and Devilkins 327) have it.
The only other lesser in PF2 who also appears to lack the ability is the Dire Harpy. Checking Dark Conversions the Dire Harpy (pg 31) and imp (pg 34) also seem to be lacking dimensional teleport. These two were absent in the original conversion book so there's nothing to check there.
Pg 49 of DB11, the Dire Harpy still seems to lack the ability. I strongly get the impression that Gleba added this ability to the Imp in DB11 to make them consistent with their fellow Lessers since they're trickster-types and not battle-types like Harpies. Gleba basically brought up Imps to tie with the Couril, who previously had (and still have) the pathetic 10% base.
Except of course, that even 1% would not be pathetic if you could spam it at no-cost no-consequence until you were successful.
I guess a DH would count as having 0% dimensional teleport so if they somehow became a Regent and got ability 10 from pg 14, 0+20% = 20% chance to d-teleport? Or perhaps they would only gain the ability to teleport home and not having any baseline, couldn't benefit from the +20% ? After all if you get "+10% to all skills" it wouldn't necessarily give you 10% in skills you didn't have...
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Alternately, there were some plans while writing the book to introduce more specific rules for how dimensional teleport works or was forgotton, but they were ultimately not followed through with, leaving an orphaned line of flavor text with no mechanical support because it was decided against introducing those mechanics.
Or they meant for imps specifically to have some kind of limitation, but no general rule for any other kind of dimensional teleport can be extrapolated.
So the only cannonical result from that line of text is "Too little data to make a ruling"
I vaguely recall something about "works like the spell", perhaps in an FAQ somewhere. I might be thinking of invisibility working like invisibility spell, can't remember if simple or superior.
But even in that case I think it was something like 'except for PPE cost' which would be the major limit in working like the spell (except for random location without a sanctuary, which I think was introduced on page 51 "More Magic" of the original non-revised Rifts Conversion Book).
This spell appears as originally level 11 (which used to be the highest) on page 75 of the Palladium RPG and aside from lacking PPE cost, appears to have many the same features: 1500 lbs, 6% per level. It had the additional requirement that you must know the true name of the world/dimension, but didn't require you had actually been there before. However if you hadn't been there, the location would be random. Non-random locations required being there and knowing exactly where you wanted to go.
Page 160 notably had for gods "Teleport and dimensional teleport same as wizard spell magic". Demons+devils weren't specified which I guess allows some flexibility to assume they might have a lesser version which doesn't allow 1500 pounds carry-on.
If you did charge a PPE cost, (even if you halved it to 400, like how Channelers can cast spells they don't know from their empowerers) even if you allowed triple PPE in addition (total 4x) I don't think most Imps would be able to handle the cost. I really do like the idea of borrowing the 13 PPE cost though, to slow down the attempts...
One idea I had is to treat failed teleport attempts (rolling above the %) as aborted magical spells and to use the rules in Through the Glass Darkly page 34 ("Too Much Magic") intended for "if a half-cast spell is aborted"
It has a "Random Manifestation of Magic" table which could produce interesting reasons why you wouldn't want a bunch of failed teleports littering the area with disruptions, because the magic might come to sentient life and try to murder you.
I don't know that normal failed magic should have a high chance of doing that, but given this is the natural equivalent of a 600 PPE spell, it seems like huge grounds for causing disruptions. Even if you had a rule like a cumulative 1% chance per 10 aborted PPE in an area, that would be a 60% chance per attempt, so a 2nd attempt (120%) would guarantee weirdness and you'd have to find another ley line nexus to try at to minimize that back to 60%
That's of course, assuming you do need a nexus to try this. I can't remember where I got that idea. I thought it was pg 12-13 of Dragons and Gods but I can't seem to find it... anyone remember examples of porting needing a nexus? Dyval 64 mentions it for opening RIFTS (the Nexus Deevil) but even they don't seem to need it for merely teleporting.
Given that "Dimensional Teleport Home" is a special ability for them (presumably meaning they don't need to roll their 88+2/lvl chance) and they need to spend PPE to bring passengers home, I would assume that using the standard ability (to go places other than home) doesn't allow passengers?
I'm not entirely sure for dragons. Their standard teleport allows bringing 1000 pounds along, but there's no mention of that for dimensional teleport so maybe they can't? Even though the level 15 spell dimensional teleport allows 1500/2000...
That has PF guidelines that dragons can attempte once per minute, with a limit of 3 successful attempts per 24 hours. It mentions an increase to "once every 10 minutes" in Rifts which is kind of confusing. One would assume that is successful attempts since it is less frequent than the 1/minute unsuccessful attempts rate... meaning you could succeed 6x per hour, 144 times per day... except of course that once you succeed once, you're no longer in the Rifts dimension, so I don't really understand the value of it unless you can use it to make inside-dimension ports to deal with ports beyond the 5 mile limit for their non-dimensional teleport. There is no "time between success" limit in PF though, unelss you assume 3 per 24 hours to mean 1 per 8 hours.
I'm wondering if maybe D+G initially figured the d-port to be limited to 1/hour attempts, in which case 1/10m is 6x as quick recharge. That would make a lot more sense...
Maybe have something like the chance of Random Manifestation reduces at a rate of 1% per week? This would encourage spellcasters to spread out, and places where magic is constantly cast (nexuses, sanctuaries) would be full of all kinds of weirdness.
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I appear to have overlooked some useful text...
Pg 216 of PF2 "Note: Many gods, greater demons, dragons, and supernatural beings possess this power as a natural ability."
This appears to imply that those with the natural ability CAN bring additional stuff: 2000 pounds worth! This is actually more than the 1500 pounds allowed on page 152 of Book of Magic...
I'm not really sure why it says GREATER demons, because most lesser demons in PF2 (Alu+Aquatics on 316, Couril on 317, Labassu/Ghoul/Nassu on 318, Lasae+Shedim on 319, Mares 320, Succubus+Incubus 321) can do it. The only kind I can see who don't have it listed are Banshee, who only appear to have a non-dimensional teleport ability for going to feeding sites.
One way one might opt to interpret that is to allow Greater Demons the 1500/2000 pounds but not allow it to Lessers, so Greaters can transport gear (or lesser passengers) but Lessers can't. It would help set apart the distinction, even if that isn't exactly spelled out in natural abilities.
DB10 introduces some Lesser Demons who don't appear to have teleportation abilities like the Demon Bat (41, though the "Demon Fly" on next page CAN d-port), and Taursis (44, though per 47 some minority ~10% might be able to)
dreicunan wrote:Perhaps another solution is that demons and deevils can only try to teleport dimensionally once from their current dimensional location, and if that fails they cannot attempt it again until they have moved through a dimensional breaking medium at least once by some other means. I can't recall any canon support for that being the rule, but it does leave Imps in a position to be stranded short of being sent away or jumping through a rift.
Another way might be to require them to use a nexus, but be limited to 1 attempt per nexus? Or just assign some huge PPE cost which most can't pay except when using a nexus at times of special alignment.
The level 15 spell Dimensional Teleport (BOM152) costs 800 PPE, so that would be a pretty good deterrent. Maybe halve it to 400PPE if they can't bring along 1500 pounds.
"The location where the teleporter appears within that dimension is completely ran dom unless the spell caster has a personal sanctuary" actually sounds super-dangerous. I don't imagine many lesser demons would have PERSONAL sanctuaries, but perhaps it counts if they get their own little hole within their Demon Lord's castle/cave?
I vaguely recall something about random teleports ending up in somewhat safe areas (ie not randomly teleporting into a star, or into the void of space) but can't remember where I saw that... without such a protection, sanctuary-less D-porting would be ridiculously dangerous and not worth it in most cases unless you were a god who could survive about anywhere.
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FOUND A SOLUTION
DB7 (Megaverse Builder) also by Carl Gleba has "Dimensional Fabric" rules. "Weak" like Rifts Earth gives bonus of 5-20 to dimensional teleport, "Permeable" (considered norm by dimensional travelers) has no bonus or penalty, while "Strong" penalizes 5-30, enough to easily reduce creatures with a meager 10-15% to 0% and trap them!
Given that Permeable (no penalty) is the norm, perhaps the "likely to be stuck" text for Imps mean that in the Minion War, Dyval is trying to focus on exploiting Strong-Fabric worlds instead of the usual Permeable/Weak ones?
This presents an interesting strategy for these beings: instead of killing them outside their home (they'll come back in a century or so to harry the innocent again) you could try stranding these creatures in Strong-Fabric worlds so that they can never escape!
Unlike Weak-Fabric (where it's always a random roll to determine bonus "at that moment in time") the Strong-Fabric rule can be GM choice or a roll, and since it doesn't say "that moment in time", the impression appears to be that it is a FIXED penalty, meaning that if it's -30% it's ALWAYs -30 and NOT sometimes a mere -5% which you might be able to eventually overcome with a 10% ability.
Also has a neat "one simply cannot teleport into Asgard" rule here
Tree of Darkness is only way!
Another neat house rule might be to say that if you attempt to teleport and fail, the fabric might temporarily get stronger (a natural defense mechanism) in respect to just you? Maybe something like -1% chance to teleport for minutes (or hours? days?) equal to your margin of failure? That might also be made location-based, like the effect might apply for a 1 mile radius so if you can travel away from where you failed, you could avoid the penalty before it expires.