Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

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Axelmania
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Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by Axelmania »

I'm looking to find discussions of mechanics to try and understand descriptions. Pg 60 of Dyval for example:

    an Imp deserted from the minion war, or an Imp who has gotten separated from his companions, is likely to be stuck on that world until someone sends him away or the Imp takes a leap of faith through a Rift

I want to understand WHY this is the case. Yes, imps have a pathetic % chance of success, but even a mere 10% will usually succeed after 10 tries, so what stops an Imp from merely brute-forcing his way to freedom?

It's never clear to me the default rules of:
1) how long it takes to attempt
2) how often it can be attempted
3) consequences of a failure
4) cost

The only hint I can think of to possible base this on is on page 14 under "10. Dimensional Master" regent powers. Here it talks about taking 3 melee attacks and costing 13 PPE. However I think that might only be intended for the "flawlessly Dimensional Teleport back to any level of Dyval" part.

Imps have at least 27 PPE so they would be able to try that at least twice (26 PPE) before needing to try and sleep their PPE back (5 PPE per hour) to make multiple attempts. Eventually though, even a 10% success rate is going to pan out, so I think we need a mechanic to explain why an Imp wouldn't want to brute-force through multiple failures until they succeeded.

Page 12 of Dragons and Gods mentions dragons' dimensional teleport is "very similar to the supernatural of demons" so it seems like the best place to borrow rules from, barring an explicit explanation of them somewhere.

Since dragons don't use PPE for their dimensional teleports, I think that reinforces the 13 PPE just being for the "automatic success home" ability dimensional masters get.

Page 13 merely says "a failed roll does not work", which is not very intimidating. The limit "three times per 24 hours" isn't exactly "stranded on a world" problems, you could make 21 attempts a week at that rate and even with a meager 10% chance, you're probably going to escape!

D+G doesn't seem to give an activation-cost in terms of time for dimensional teleport, although "each attempt counts as a melee action and uses up one melee attack" appears in the preceding "Teleport" paragraph. It seems pretty short though... the 1D4 melees of concentration that Ley Line Phasing requires sounds a little more balanced!

It seems like the options are either "you end up exactly where you wanted to go" or "you go nowhere". I'm wondering if I'm missing a 3rd option somewhere like "you go somewhere you didn't intend". This would explain why Imps would hesitate to teleport at low skill: they might accidentally go to the "Blender Dimension" instead of Dyval, get chopped up, and then their soul will waste decades floating on autopilot back to Dyval and then decades more being regrown from an egg.

That's part of why I think it would be okay for demons/dyvalians though: because of that eventual resurrection. I can see why we would avoid doing it for dragons (they generally don't auto-respawn, not even gods tend to do that without help of other gods) so it would make dimensional teleports for dragons too dangeruos to try.

Letting demons accidentally go to wrong (possibly dangerous) dimensions seems 100% fine though, since even if they end up in a place too dangerous to survive, they're not gone forever, and might be willing to risk it.

It might even work for dragons though, because even a hatchling tends to be better at surviving in dangerous places than a lesser dyvalian such as an imp.
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Re: Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by dreicunan »

Perhaps another solution is that demons and deevils can only try to teleport dimensionally once from their current dimensional location, and if that fails they cannot attempt it again until they have moved through a dimensional breaking medium at least once by some other means. I can't recall any canon support for that being the rule, but it does leave Imps in a position to be stranded short of being sent away or jumping through a rift.
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Re: Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Axelmania wrote:I'm looking to find discussions of mechanics to try and understand descriptions. Pg 60 of Dyval for example:

    an Imp deserted from the minion war, or an Imp who has gotten separated from his companions, is likely to be stuck on that world until someone sends him away or the Imp takes a leap of faith through a Rift

I want to understand WHY this is the case. Yes, imps have a pathetic % chance of success, but even a mere 10% will usually succeed after 10 tries, so what stops an Imp from merely brute-forcing his way to freedom?

It's never clear to me the default rules of:
1) how long it takes to attempt
2) how often it can be attempted
3) consequences of a failure
4) cost

The only hint I can think of to possible base this on is on page 14 under "10. Dimensional Master" regent powers. Here it talks about taking 3 melee attacks and costing 13 PPE. However I think that might only be intended for the "flawlessly Dimensional Teleport back to any level of Dyval" part.

Imps have at least 27 PPE so they would be able to try that at least twice (26 PPE) before needing to try and sleep their PPE back (5 PPE per hour) to make multiple attempts. Eventually though, even a 10% success rate is going to pan out, so I think we need a mechanic to explain why an Imp wouldn't want to brute-force through multiple failures until they succeeded.

Page 12 of Dragons and Gods mentions dragons' dimensional teleport is "very similar to the supernatural of demons" so it seems like the best place to borrow rules from, barring an explicit explanation of them somewhere.

Since dragons don't use PPE for their dimensional teleports, I think that reinforces the 13 PPE just being for the "automatic success home" ability dimensional masters get.

Page 13 merely says "a failed roll does not work", which is not very intimidating. The limit "three times per 24 hours" isn't exactly "stranded on a world" problems, you could make 21 attempts a week at that rate and even with a meager 10% chance, you're probably going to escape!

D+G doesn't seem to give an activation-cost in terms of time for dimensional teleport, although "each attempt counts as a melee action and uses up one melee attack" appears in the preceding "Teleport" paragraph. It seems pretty short though... the 1D4 melees of concentration that Ley Line Phasing requires sounds a little more balanced!

It seems like the options are either "you end up exactly where you wanted to go" or "you go nowhere". I'm wondering if I'm missing a 3rd option somewhere like "you go somewhere you didn't intend". This would explain why Imps would hesitate to teleport at low skill: they might accidentally go to the "Blender Dimension" instead of Dyval, get chopped up, and then their soul will waste decades floating on autopilot back to Dyval and then decades more being regrown from an egg.

That's part of why I think it would be okay for demons/dyvalians though: because of that eventual resurrection. I can see why we would avoid doing it for dragons (they generally don't auto-respawn, not even gods tend to do that without help of other gods) so it would make dimensional teleports for dragons too dangeruos to try.

Letting demons accidentally go to wrong (possibly dangerous) dimensions seems 100% fine though, since even if they end up in a place too dangerous to survive, they're not gone forever, and might be willing to risk it.

It might even work for dragons though, because even a hatchling tends to be better at surviving in dangerous places than a lesser dyvalian such as an imp.


Looks to me like that line was a bit of fluff written by someone who forgot Imps can dimensionally teleport.

Alternately, there were some plans while writing the book to introduce more specific rules for how dimensional teleport works or was forgotton, but they were ultimately not followed through with, leaving an orphaned line of flavor text with no mechanical support because it was decided against introducing those mechanics.

Or they meant for imps specifically to have some kind of limitation, but no general rule for any other kind of dimensional teleport can be extrapolated.

So the only cannonical result from that line of text is "Too little data to make a ruling"
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Re: Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by Axelmania »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Looks to me like that line was a bit of fluff written by someone who forgot Imps can dimensionally teleport.

I don't think so, this actually immediately follows this text which I hadn't printed from Dyval60:

    Dimensional teleport is a paltry 10% + 1% per level of experience, which means Imps typically rely on others to take them from one world to another. That also means an Imp deserter...

Plus I think prior to Gleba's rewrite they didn't even have a dimensional teleport ability. I don't see one listed on page 330 of PF2, for example, whereas on preceding pages most other lesser Dyvalians (Gorgons 329, Fiends and Fenry 328, Deevils and Devilkins 327) have it.

The only other lesser in PF2 who also appears to lack the ability is the Dire Harpy. Checking Dark Conversions the Dire Harpy (pg 31) and imp (pg 34) also seem to be lacking dimensional teleport. These two were absent in the original conversion book so there's nothing to check there.

Pg 49 of DB11, the Dire Harpy still seems to lack the ability. I strongly get the impression that Gleba added this ability to the Imp in DB11 to make them consistent with their fellow Lessers since they're trickster-types and not battle-types like Harpies. Gleba basically brought up Imps to tie with the Couril, who previously had (and still have) the pathetic 10% base.

Except of course, that even 1% would not be pathetic if you could spam it at no-cost no-consequence until you were successful.

I guess a DH would count as having 0% dimensional teleport so if they somehow became a Regent and got ability 10 from pg 14, 0+20% = 20% chance to d-teleport? Or perhaps they would only gain the ability to teleport home and not having any baseline, couldn't benefit from the +20% ? After all if you get "+10% to all skills" it wouldn't necessarily give you 10% in skills you didn't have...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Alternately, there were some plans while writing the book to introduce more specific rules for how dimensional teleport works or was forgotton, but they were ultimately not followed through with, leaving an orphaned line of flavor text with no mechanical support because it was decided against introducing those mechanics.

Or they meant for imps specifically to have some kind of limitation, but no general rule for any other kind of dimensional teleport can be extrapolated.

So the only cannonical result from that line of text is "Too little data to make a ruling"

I vaguely recall something about "works like the spell", perhaps in an FAQ somewhere. I might be thinking of invisibility working like invisibility spell, can't remember if simple or superior.

But even in that case I think it was something like 'except for PPE cost' which would be the major limit in working like the spell (except for random location without a sanctuary, which I think was introduced on page 51 "More Magic" of the original non-revised Rifts Conversion Book).

    This spell appears as originally level 11 (which used to be the highest) on page 75 of the Palladium RPG and aside from lacking PPE cost, appears to have many the same features: 1500 lbs, 6% per level. It had the additional requirement that you must know the true name of the world/dimension, but didn't require you had actually been there before. However if you hadn't been there, the location would be random. Non-random locations required being there and knowing exactly where you wanted to go.

    Page 160 notably had for gods "Teleport and dimensional teleport same as wizard spell magic". Demons+devils weren't specified which I guess allows some flexibility to assume they might have a lesser version which doesn't allow 1500 pounds carry-on.

If you did charge a PPE cost, (even if you halved it to 400, like how Channelers can cast spells they don't know from their empowerers) even if you allowed triple PPE in addition (total 4x) I don't think most Imps would be able to handle the cost. I really do like the idea of borrowing the 13 PPE cost though, to slow down the attempts...

One idea I had is to treat failed teleport attempts (rolling above the %) as aborted magical spells and to use the rules in Through the Glass Darkly page 34 ("Too Much Magic") intended for "if a half-cast spell is aborted"

It has a "Random Manifestation of Magic" table which could produce interesting reasons why you wouldn't want a bunch of failed teleports littering the area with disruptions, because the magic might come to sentient life and try to murder you.

I don't know that normal failed magic should have a high chance of doing that, but given this is the natural equivalent of a 600 PPE spell, it seems like huge grounds for causing disruptions. Even if you had a rule like a cumulative 1% chance per 10 aborted PPE in an area, that would be a 60% chance per attempt, so a 2nd attempt (120%) would guarantee weirdness and you'd have to find another ley line nexus to try at to minimize that back to 60%

    That's of course, assuming you do need a nexus to try this. I can't remember where I got that idea. I thought it was pg 12-13 of Dragons and Gods but I can't seem to find it... anyone remember examples of porting needing a nexus? Dyval 64 mentions it for opening RIFTS (the Nexus Deevil) but even they don't seem to need it for merely teleporting.

    Given that "Dimensional Teleport Home" is a special ability for them (presumably meaning they don't need to roll their 88+2/lvl chance) and they need to spend PPE to bring passengers home, I would assume that using the standard ability (to go places other than home) doesn't allow passengers?

    I'm not entirely sure for dragons. Their standard teleport allows bringing 1000 pounds along, but there's no mention of that for dimensional teleport so maybe they can't? Even though the level 15 spell dimensional teleport allows 1500/2000...

That has PF guidelines that dragons can attempte once per minute, with a limit of 3 successful attempts per 24 hours. It mentions an increase to "once every 10 minutes" in Rifts which is kind of confusing. One would assume that is successful attempts since it is less frequent than the 1/minute unsuccessful attempts rate... meaning you could succeed 6x per hour, 144 times per day... except of course that once you succeed once, you're no longer in the Rifts dimension, so I don't really understand the value of it unless you can use it to make inside-dimension ports to deal with ports beyond the 5 mile limit for their non-dimensional teleport. There is no "time between success" limit in PF though, unelss you assume 3 per 24 hours to mean 1 per 8 hours.

I'm wondering if maybe D+G initially figured the d-port to be limited to 1/hour attempts, in which case 1/10m is 6x as quick recharge. That would make a lot more sense...



Maybe have something like the chance of Random Manifestation reduces at a rate of 1% per week? This would encourage spellcasters to spread out, and places where magic is constantly cast (nexuses, sanctuaries) would be full of all kinds of weirdness.

- - -

I appear to have overlooked some useful text...

Pg 216 of PF2 "Note: Many gods, greater demons, dragons, and supernatural beings possess this power as a natural ability."

This appears to imply that those with the natural ability CAN bring additional stuff: 2000 pounds worth! This is actually more than the 1500 pounds allowed on page 152 of Book of Magic...

I'm not really sure why it says GREATER demons, because most lesser demons in PF2 (Alu+Aquatics on 316, Couril on 317, Labassu/Ghoul/Nassu on 318, Lasae+Shedim on 319, Mares 320, Succubus+Incubus 321) can do it. The only kind I can see who don't have it listed are Banshee, who only appear to have a non-dimensional teleport ability for going to feeding sites.

One way one might opt to interpret that is to allow Greater Demons the 1500/2000 pounds but not allow it to Lessers, so Greaters can transport gear (or lesser passengers) but Lessers can't. It would help set apart the distinction, even if that isn't exactly spelled out in natural abilities.

DB10 introduces some Lesser Demons who don't appear to have teleportation abilities like the Demon Bat (41, though the "Demon Fly" on next page CAN d-port), and Taursis (44, though per 47 some minority ~10% might be able to)

dreicunan wrote:Perhaps another solution is that demons and deevils can only try to teleport dimensionally once from their current dimensional location, and if that fails they cannot attempt it again until they have moved through a dimensional breaking medium at least once by some other means. I can't recall any canon support for that being the rule, but it does leave Imps in a position to be stranded short of being sent away or jumping through a rift.


Another way might be to require them to use a nexus, but be limited to 1 attempt per nexus? Or just assign some huge PPE cost which most can't pay except when using a nexus at times of special alignment.

The level 15 spell Dimensional Teleport (BOM152) costs 800 PPE, so that would be a pretty good deterrent. Maybe halve it to 400PPE if they can't bring along 1500 pounds.

"The location where the teleporter appears within that dimension is completely ran dom unless the spell caster has a personal sanctuary" actually sounds super-dangerous. I don't imagine many lesser demons would have PERSONAL sanctuaries, but perhaps it counts if they get their own little hole within their Demon Lord's castle/cave?

I vaguely recall something about random teleports ending up in somewhat safe areas (ie not randomly teleporting into a star, or into the void of space) but can't remember where I saw that... without such a protection, sanctuary-less D-porting would be ridiculously dangerous and not worth it in most cases unless you were a god who could survive about anywhere.

- - -

FOUND A SOLUTION

DB7 (Megaverse Builder) also by Carl Gleba has "Dimensional Fabric" rules. "Weak" like Rifts Earth gives bonus of 5-20 to dimensional teleport, "Permeable" (considered norm by dimensional travelers) has no bonus or penalty, while "Strong" penalizes 5-30, enough to easily reduce creatures with a meager 10-15% to 0% and trap them!

Given that Permeable (no penalty) is the norm, perhaps the "likely to be stuck" text for Imps mean that in the Minion War, Dyval is trying to focus on exploiting Strong-Fabric worlds instead of the usual Permeable/Weak ones?

This presents an interesting strategy for these beings: instead of killing them outside their home (they'll come back in a century or so to harry the innocent again) you could try stranding these creatures in Strong-Fabric worlds so that they can never escape!

Unlike Weak-Fabric (where it's always a random roll to determine bonus "at that moment in time") the Strong-Fabric rule can be GM choice or a roll, and since it doesn't say "that moment in time", the impression appears to be that it is a FIXED penalty, meaning that if it's -30% it's ALWAYs -30 and NOT sometimes a mere -5% which you might be able to eventually overcome with a 10% ability.

Also has a neat "one simply cannot teleport into Asgard" rule here :) Tree of Darkness is only way!

Another neat house rule might be to say that if you attempt to teleport and fail, the fabric might temporarily get stronger (a natural defense mechanism) in respect to just you? Maybe something like -1% chance to teleport for minutes (or hours? days?) equal to your margin of failure? That might also be made location-based, like the effect might apply for a 1 mile radius so if you can travel away from where you failed, you could avoid the penalty before it expires.
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Re: Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by Meneliki »

I would argue that this is a case of realism/storytelling vs. mechanics. If you use the logic of, "well if he fails, he can just try again until he suceeds"... what that results in is no character ever failing his rolls. Everyone always suceeds at everyhing(cuz otherwise they can just keep trying).

If an Imp is stuck on Rifts Earth, than he's stuck. IMO this is far more interesting and presents more gameplay opportunities than simply, "He kept at his lowly skill check until he finally, statistically got it."
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Re: Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Meneliki wrote:I would argue that this is a case of realism/storytelling vs. mechanics. If you use the logic of, "well if he fails, he can just try again until he suceeds"... what that results in is no character ever failing his rolls. Everyone always suceeds at everyhing(cuz otherwise they can just keep trying).

If an Imp is stuck on Rifts Earth, than he's stuck. IMO this is far more interesting and presents more gameplay opportunities than simply, "He kept at his lowly skill check until he finally, statistically got it."


"If at first you don't succeed, give up forever" isn't very interesting either. Thomas Edison had to fail 999 times to make 1 light bulb is usually quoted as an inspiring story of preserverance--either can result in an interesting story. it depends on how you work it and frame it.
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Re: Dimensional Teleport as Natural Ability

Unread post by Axelmania »

Meneliki wrote:I would argue that this is a case of realism/storytelling vs. mechanics. If you use the logic of, "well if he fails, he can just try again until he suceeds"... what that results in is no character ever failing his rolls. Everyone always suceeds at everyhing(cuz otherwise they can just keep trying).

That depends on what the result of failure is. If someone failed a Back Flip attempt, I wouldn't just be "nothing happens", I'd have them fall down and possibly suffer some damage. Unfortunately a failed teleport is just 'nothing happens' explicitly.

Meneliki wrote:If an Imp is stuck on Rifts Earth, than he's stuck. IMO this is far more interesting and presents more gameplay opportunities than simply, "He kept at his lowly skill check until he finally, statistically got it."

Being stuck on Rifts Earth isn't likely though since it gives a varying bonus of 5% to 20% to teleport out.

The only thing I'm not sure of is whether Hades and Dyval are Weak-fabric like Rifts, or perhaps Permeable (average) like the Palladium/Wormwood pocket dimensions, or maybe Strong like I assume probably Nightbane is, and probably other dimensions which don't get much supernatural interference interference like Splicers/Systems Failure/Recon.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:"If at first you don't succeed, give up forever" isn't very interesting either. Thomas Edison had to fail 999 times to make 1 light bulb is usually quoted as an inspiring story of preserverance--either can result in an interesting story. it depends on how you work it and frame it.

One thing that might be interesting is treating the % chance to teleport like a skill, so if there are insanities triggered to cause skill penalties, those would perhaps bring them to 0% until they're having a good day when it doesn't trigger, or maybe force them to seek out psychiatric counseling to try and treat the insanity so they can focus better on teleporting.

I hadn't thought about it much, but both dying and being tortured can cause insanity and that sort of thing probably happens to lesser demons and lesser dyvals a lot.

Another possible approach: let's say some house like like even a paltry 1 PPE is charged per attempt, or even something like there's no cost but you must have at least 1 PPE to attempt it...

What if every time there is a dimensional teleport attempt, a micro-rift is briefly opened which could allow inter-dimension stuff like Poltergeists in? We already know that usually happens with full-size rifts and portals, but maybe it happens with micro-communication rifts and 'pinhole' rifts used for teleporting too.

The interesting impediment there would be that upon a failure, suddenly there is an annoying poltergeist (or TWO) in the area, sucking up the demon's PPE and using telekinesis to fling dirt into its eyes, interrupting its "spellcasting" (let's say you required 3 uninterrupted melee attacks to Dimensional Teleport, which seems fair since that's how long it takes to cast the 15th level spell)

So then you have to have the demon either kill the poltergeist (which it might lack the abilities to do) or try to run away from it (hard to ditch at 30mph and able to fly through walls... maybe jump into a river flowing 40mph?) or get it to go after some new target. You might be able to ditch it by turning invisible, Poltergiests do have "See the Invisible" but maybe they don't have enough ISP to turn it on, or maybe you get far enough away that it's beyond the range of the lesser psi power?

I'm not sure what range Poltergeists have on their PPE-sucking, it just says "around" vaguely.

As for why I think this is feasible: RUE 122 "Dimensional Teleport Home" for the Shifter summarizes it as "the ability to Rift home" so it's probably a pinhole rift they get shoved through like how gods travel. So a pinhole opening every time a demon attempts his natural ability (even if it fails) would give them poltergeists to interfere with future attempts.

- - -

Found something useful on page 12 (upper left) of Dark Conversions, it appears to clarify here that for Hades Demons (I don't know if this would apply to other non-Hades demons though, or Dyvals) the % chance is for teleporting HOME. Prior to this, I was under the impression they could use this to invade other dimensions...like say to teleport back to hassle an ex-Shifter. It sounds pretty limiting for them!

I don't know if anything here still holds since Hades 94 was published after Dark Conversions and seems to state pretty explicitly that demons can teleport to worlds they've visited. Unless perhaps "home" is any place they've visited before?

It also clarifies that it only takes 1 melee action to do (and not the amount of time it would take to cast a 15th level spell, as I had previous assumed), but that attempts are limited to once per melee round.

Pg 159 the Red Flames Demon Lord seems more flexible than other kinds of Hades Demons: "only to the Netherworld, Nightlands, or Rifts Earth." whereas other forms of Red Flames have the "only to the Netherworld" disclaimer except for the Asurk-Demonian on page 153 which says "Hades and home dimen­sion only"

Pg 115 the Major Fire Elemental's dimensional teleport says "same as the demon or dragon ability" which isn't entirely clear... does that mean they can only teleport home like most Hades Demons (with the exception of Lords/Asurks) or to any dimension they've visited (like a dragon?)

Pg 111 the Major Earth elemental only says "same as the demonic ability" with no mention of dragons, by contrast.

Pg 27 Modeus says "limited to dimensions known by the intelligence" which makes sense since he'd be a step above the Red Flames Demon Lord.
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