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 Post subject: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:49 pm
  

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Palladin

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Anyone know where there is information about the CS invasion of New Kenora and the shutting down of Iron Hert Armaments?.....other than CS Navy

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:54 pm
  

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WB11 - Coalition War Campaign, pg. 26.


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:01 am
  

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Excellent thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:55 pm
  

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Not about the invasion per se, but i think Mercenaries had something about a secret factory in Duluth (close to an abandoned Xiticix hive) that could make a major base for remants from Ironheart Armaments & New Kenora refuges from the events there to either start anew or set up some sort of guerilla/terrorist action. Damn, in my own game New Kenora is pretty much Troubles-era Northern Ireland, on steroids thanks to "Iron Heart Marauders" and some veiled support from Naruni Enterprises.


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:50 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Not about the invasion per se, but i think Mercenaries had something about a secret factory in Duluth (close to an abandoned Xiticix hive) that could make a major base for remants from Ironheart Armaments & New Kenora refuges from the events there to either start anew or set up some sort of guerilla/terrorist action. Damn, in my own game New Kenora is pretty much Troubles-era Northern Ireland, on steroids thanks to "Iron Heart Marauders" and some veiled support from Naruni Enterprises.

I couldn't find this in Mercenaries itself. Would it be in one of the other Mercs books.

I did the same thing in my long term campaign except one of my players had a town on the Gulf coast of Alabama. By the time Minion War was starting and the campaign ended IHA was building everything in Mercs except for Sea Kings and jets.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:43 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Not about the invasion per se, but i think Mercenaries had something about a secret factory in Duluth (close to an abandoned Xiticix hive) that could make a major base for remants from Ironheart Armaments & New Kenora refuges from the events there to either start anew or set up some sort of guerilla/terrorist action. Damn, in my own game New Kenora is pretty much Troubles-era Northern Ireland, on steroids thanks to "Iron Heart Marauders" and some veiled support from Naruni Enterprises.

I couldn't find this in Mercenaries itself. Would it be in one of the other Mercs books.


Ok, i mixed up some details, place has nothing to do with a Xiticix hive, but found it!

Rifts Mercenaries, pg. 117 wrote:
Iron Heart Watercraft
Iron Heart has recently purchased some shipyards on the coast of Lake Superior at the rebuilt city of Duluth, Minnesota.
Since the Great Lakes and other coastal areas are so dangerous, the company is trying to sell its patrol and attack boats to coastal communities, mercenaries and adventurers. Even the CS of Quebec has made a few purchases. Unfortunately, would-be pirates who roam the lakes and seas are becoming Iron Heart Armaments' best customers (cash sales only)


While the place is not described as secret per se, it's an easy extrapolation from it being a new instalation in a different location - and having a mostly criminal clientele even before the takeover of New Kenora. I think i may have seen something about remnants of New Kenora playing pirate, what may have cemented the idea of Duluth as Iron Heart Armament's Hoth, so to speak, in my head, but can't say for sure where. But you can bet i will bring it up if i ever find such a reference again. :D

Warshield73 wrote:
I did the same thing in my long term campaign except one of my players had a town on the Gulf coast of Alabama. By the time Minion War was starting and the campaign ended IHA was building everything in Mercs except for Sea Kings and jets.


Well, best part is the book implies Duluth is most probably the place where Sea Kings are built in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:34 am
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Not about the invasion per se, but i think Mercenaries had something about a secret factory in Duluth (close to an abandoned Xiticix hive) that could make a major base for remants from Ironheart Armaments & New Kenora refuges from the events there to either start anew or set up some sort of guerilla/terrorist action. Damn, in my own game New Kenora is pretty much Troubles-era Northern Ireland, on steroids thanks to "Iron Heart Marauders" and some veiled support from Naruni Enterprises.

I couldn't find this in Mercenaries itself. Would it be in one of the other Mercs books.


Ok, i mixed up some details, place has nothing to do with a Xiticix hive, but found it!

Rifts Mercenaries, pg. 117 wrote:
Iron Heart Watercraft
Iron Heart has recently purchased some shipyards on the coast of Lake Superior at the rebuilt city of Duluth, Minnesota.
Since the Great Lakes and other coastal areas are so dangerous, the company is trying to sell its patrol and attack boats to coastal communities, mercenaries and adventurers. Even the CS of Quebec has made a few purchases. Unfortunately, would-be pirates who roam the lakes and seas are becoming Iron Heart Armaments' best customers (cash sales only)


While the place is not described as secret per se, it's an easy extrapolation from it being a new instalation in a different location - and having a mostly criminal clientele even before the takeover of New Kenora. I think i may have seen something about remnants of New Kenora playing pirate, what may have cemented the idea of Duluth as Iron Heart Armament's Hoth, so to speak, in my head, but can't say for sure where. But you can bet i will bring it up if i ever find such a reference again. :D

Warshield73 wrote:
I did the same thing in my long term campaign except one of my players had a town on the Gulf coast of Alabama. By the time Minion War was starting and the campaign ended IHA was building everything in Mercs except for Sea Kings and jets.


Well, best part is the book implies Duluth is most probably the place where Sea Kings are built in the first place.

I am pretty sure that both CS War Campaign and CS Navy SB detail that they took the entire kingdom and that they have the shipyards in question as with the exception of the Iron Heart Avengers IHA no longer exists.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:48 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Not about the invasion per se, but i think Mercenaries had something about a secret factory in Duluth (close to an abandoned Xiticix hive) that could make a major base for remants from Ironheart Armaments & New Kenora refuges from the events there to either start anew or set up some sort of guerilla/terrorist action. Damn, in my own game New Kenora is pretty much Troubles-era Northern Ireland, on steroids thanks to "Iron Heart Marauders" and some veiled support from Naruni Enterprises.

I couldn't find this in Mercenaries itself. Would it be in one of the other Mercs books.


Ok, i mixed up some details, place has nothing to do with a Xiticix hive, but found it!

Rifts Mercenaries, pg. 117 wrote:
Iron Heart Watercraft
Iron Heart has recently purchased some shipyards on the coast of Lake Superior at the rebuilt city of Duluth, Minnesota.
Since the Great Lakes and other coastal areas are so dangerous, the company is trying to sell its patrol and attack boats to coastal communities, mercenaries and adventurers. Even the CS of Quebec has made a few purchases. Unfortunately, would-be pirates who roam the lakes and seas are becoming Iron Heart Armaments' best customers (cash sales only)


While the place is not described as secret per se, it's an easy extrapolation from it being a new instalation in a different location - and having a mostly criminal clientele even before the takeover of New Kenora. I think i may have seen something about remnants of New Kenora playing pirate, what may have cemented the idea of Duluth as Iron Heart Armament's Hoth, so to speak, in my head, but can't say for sure where. But you can bet i will bring it up if i ever find such a reference again. :D

Warshield73 wrote:
I did the same thing in my long term campaign except one of my players had a town on the Gulf coast of Alabama. By the time Minion War was starting and the campaign ended IHA was building everything in Mercs except for Sea Kings and jets.


Well, best part is the book implies Duluth is most probably the place where Sea Kings are built in the first place.

I am pretty sure that both CS War Campaign and CS Navy SB detail that they took the entire kingdom and that they have the shipyards in question as with the exception of the Iron Heart Avengers IHA no longer exists.


That's where i beg to differ for a few reasons:
- New Kenora had shipyards of its own, it gets mentioned in CS Navy how they captured ships there and all. It's just that it wasn't their main ship-producing works (and certainly not the one trading - cash first - with pirates all across the Great Lakes and beyond).
- Duluth is about 300 miles southeast of Kenora, a far from insignificant distance and kind of easy to mess, specially when one considers those works were something of a late addition/expansion of niche to make up for the growinng demand ressulting from their success.
- The whole thing about not getting the secrets of some of the Iron Heart models. While schematics are indeed something quite relevant, that doesn't quite fit with the idea of the CS capturing most of their installations and personnell, specially considering CS have the technological edge.
- Plus, Coalition Navy does mentions Duluth ..... as the place of a Xiticix hive that partly blocks passage to and from Tolkeen. That is where i got the idea of an abandoned/exterminated hive serving as a cover of sorts to the Duluth colony's existence that i mentioned in my first post.

So, those make up my explanations/excuses for how the Duluth shipyards could have escaped notice by CS intelligence and capture by their army, while giving the idea of a "New Kenora Liberation Front" a hefty (but far from world-shaking) resource and considerably more bite. Bonus in that it could make something of a hideout and rally point for some groups of Tolkeen refugees too.

That said, it ain't all perfect for our rebels. The Iron Heart Avengers while aware of Duluth's continued existence do keep their distance, as getting back to the Great Lakes physically would be not only physically complicated (as among othr things the CS control the locks on the Great Lakes) but bring the risk of exposing their Duluth compatriots. Some contact and exchange exist, but it's somewhat limited and quite convoluted at present - but overall Avengers and Marauders work under separate leaderships and resources pools (a problem in itself, as the Avengers are being patronized by the Splugorth, while the Duluth group have been asssociating with the Naruni).


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:18 am
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
That said, it ain't all perfect for our rebels. The Iron Heart Avengers while aware of Duluth's continued existence do keep their distance, as getting back to the Great Lakes physically would be not only physically complicated (as among othr things the CS control the locks on the Great Lakes) but bring the risk of exposing their Duluth compatriots. Some contact and exchange exist, but it's somewhat limited and quite convoluted at present - but overall Avengers and Marauders work under separate leaderships and resources pools (a problem in itself, as the Avengers are being patronized by the Splugorth, while the Duluth group have been asssociating with the Naruni).
Isn't support from both Splugorth and Naruni what they were implying with the Mr. Gray and Miss Green (or whatever their names were) giving a bunch of money to the Tomorrow Legion so they could build up their already-surrounded-and-ready-to-be-besieged-by-the-CS castle? (I've only read that once, so I may have gotten the wrong impression.)

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:18 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
That said, it ain't all perfect for our rebels. The Iron Heart Avengers while aware of Duluth's continued existence do keep their distance, as getting back to the Great Lakes physically would be not only physically complicated (as among othr things the CS control the locks on the Great Lakes) but bring the risk of exposing their Duluth compatriots. Some contact and exchange exist, but it's somewhat limited and quite convoluted at present - but overall Avengers and Marauders work under separate leaderships and resources pools (a problem in itself, as the Avengers are being patronized by the Splugorth, while the Duluth group have been asssociating with the Naruni).
Isn't support from both Splugorth and Naruni what they were implying with the Mr. Gray and Miss Green (or whatever their names were) giving a bunch of money to the Tomorrow Legion so they could build up their already-surrounded-and-ready-to-be-besieged-by-the-CS castle? (I've only read that once, so I may have gotten the wrong impression.)


Must admit it rings no bells whatsoever - can't even say who Mr. Gray and Miss Green might be in the first place....


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:41 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
That said, it ain't all perfect for our rebels. The Iron Heart Avengers while aware of Duluth's continued existence do keep their distance, as getting back to the Great Lakes physically would be not only physically complicated (as among othr things the CS control the locks on the Great Lakes) but bring the risk of exposing their Duluth compatriots. Some contact and exchange exist, but it's somewhat limited and quite convoluted at present - but overall Avengers and Marauders work under separate leaderships and resources pools (a problem in itself, as the Avengers are being patronized by the Splugorth, while the Duluth group have been asssociating with the Naruni).
Isn't support from both Splugorth and Naruni what they were implying with the Mr. Gray and Miss Green (or whatever their names were) giving a bunch of money to the Tomorrow Legion so they could build up their already-surrounded-and-ready-to-be-besieged-by-the-CS castle? (I've only read that once, so I may have gotten the wrong impression.)


Must admit it rings no bells whatsoever - can't even say who Mr. Gray and Miss Green might be in the first place....

I don't know that Savage Rifts stuff is canon for Palladium Rifts anyways, so it may not matter.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:57 pm
  

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The CS captured the kingdom of new Kenora not just the city and considering hiw the people pretty readily capitulated in addition to the back of CS navy explaining that iha is effectively dead with their operations now becoming a pirate heyo, operating at Duluth is a very incorrect assumption.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:35 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
The CS captured the kingdom of new Kenora not just the city and considering hiw the people pretty readily capitulated in addition to the back of CS navy explaining that iha is effectively dead with their operations now becoming a pirate heyo, operating at Duluth is a very incorrect assumption.


And where is specified the kingdom's size?
Or that the CS also knew about Duluth (in fact, CS Navy's comment on Duluth implies the complete opposite)?
I just put out a possible set up for a game, based on fragments of information provided by the books themselves.

Not saying it changes much in the long run - momment CS actually finds the place, it will be a curbstomp, Battle of Hoth from the Alliance's side at best. But it provides a fun springboard for guerilla/rebelion games set in New Kenora or the Great Lakes in general or an extra port for piratical stories set in the same area.

Not your cup of tea? Ok, it happens.
If someone else reads this and likes the idea? Good too.
Won't make money either way.


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:34 pm
  

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i'd like a new new kenora (neo-kenora?) if only because i like the tanks. if they had to scale their building WAAAY back to hide their operation from the CS and set up either in the west or close-ish to alabama to sell to dinosaur-hunting groups, i'd be fine with that.

gonna need those bombers for the bug hunt in the future anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:53 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
And where is specified the kingdom's size?
Or that the CS also knew about Duluth (in fact, CS Navy's comment on Duluth implies the complete opposite)?
I just put out a possible set up for a game, based on fragments of information provided by the books themselves.

Not saying it changes much in the long run - momment CS actually finds the place, it will be a curbstomp, Battle of Hoth from the Alliance's side at best. But it provides a fun springboard for guerilla/rebelion games set in New Kenora or the Great Lakes in general or an extra port for piratical stories set in the same area.

Not your cup of tea? Ok, it happens.
If someone else reads this and likes the idea? Good too.
Won't make money either way.

WB 11 - CS War Campaign, pg. 26 it says very clearly that IHA equipment is no longer being manufactured at all.

Also the information you are talking about, Rifts Mercenaries pg. 117, mentions nothing about a second or secret shipyard. This is there primary, probably only shipyard and part of the kingdom and was taken over by the CS. The "cash sales only" was not about the yards selling unknown ships out of a secret yard somewhere it was just about the customers, i.e. pirates.

Now there is nothing wrong with changing what's in the books to serve your campaign, I do it myself a lot and Kevin is the first one to recommend it, but you are changing canon.

Orin J. wrote:
i'd like a new new kenora (neo-kenora?) if only because i like the tanks. if they had to scale their building WAAAY back to hide their operation from the CS and set up either in the west or close-ish to alabama to sell to dinosaur-hunting groups, i'd be fine with that.

gonna need those bombers for the bug hunt in the future anyways.

I agree and this is why I actually put a revived IHA on the Gulf Coast.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:16 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
And where is specified the kingdom's size?
Or that the CS also knew about Duluth (in fact, CS Navy's comment on Duluth implies the complete opposite)?
I just put out a possible set up for a game, based on fragments of information provided by the books themselves.

Not saying it changes much in the long run - momment CS actually finds the place, it will be a curbstomp, Battle of Hoth from the Alliance's side at best. But it provides a fun springboard for guerilla/rebelion games set in New Kenora or the Great Lakes in general or an extra port for piratical stories set in the same area.

Not your cup of tea? Ok, it happens.
If someone else reads this and likes the idea? Good too.
Won't make money either way.

WB 11 - CS War Campaign, pg. 26 it says very clearly that IHA equipment is no longer being manufactured at all.

Also the information you are talking about, Rifts Mercenaries pg. 117, mentions nothing about a second or secret shipyard. This is there primary, probably only shipyard and part of the kingdom and was taken over by the CS. The "cash sales only" was not about the yards selling unknown ships out of a secret yard somewhere it was just about the customers, i.e. pirates.

Now there is nothing wrong with changing what's in the books to serve your campaign, I do it myself a lot and Kevin is the first one to recommend it, but you are changing canon.


Actually, it's a little more complex than that. Hear me out.

Yes, the CS comes in and the kingdom of New Kenora is taken over, whatever its precise extension is. It wasn't a really big kingdom, CS saw their sudden success and made a point to nip it in the bud as a show to other small fry concentrating again on bigger stuff. Runaways & such get to be mentioned and no talk is done of anything like a secret IHA instalation or somesuch. End of story.

But then there's this on CS Navy itself.

Coalition Navy, pg.10 wrote:
Unlike the other Great Lakes powers, the nation of Tolkeen does not have a direct outlet to the lakes because it has been blocked by the Xiticix at Duluth for years, and must use a complicated overland ley line route to a station near Ishpeming where a squadron of Tolkeen-owned freighters transports goods to other kingdoms and trading posts on the lakes.


"There's a Xiticix hive in Duluth , has been blocking boat movement in the area for years" is quite the different piece of info from "oh, New Kenora opened a secondary ship-building instalation there of late". It's a minor continuity hiccup, and "guess people don't know about the Duluth shipyards, it was a recent addition, could also have been a kind of rush-rush thing...." makes for a quick answer (one somewhat justified by the fact IHA was developing a growing client base between pirates and other lawless groups near the time of the their takeover) and one that offers a plotline possibility at that.

I extrapolated by making a judgement on the available sources? Certainly.
Changed canon? Wouldn't say so, as i might not have had the idea myself if not for a conflict of already existing book info.

Just that. Anyway no big deal.


Last edited by SolCannibal on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:55 pm
  

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https://worldofjaymz.fandom.com/wiki/Ne ... _Old_Heart

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:16 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
https://worldofjaymz.fandom.com/wiki/New_Life_For_An_Old_Heart


Very nice set-up for a return of IHA and its products to the merc and minor kingdoms' military markets.

I took things in different directions in my own game, as wanted to explore the idea of problems the CS created for itself with the War Campaign as a whole, but i could certainly mix this in my game easily enough.


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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:35 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I would also like to point out that the IHA stuff is easy peasy to make.
Other than the big ships (which only need a ship yard of which there appear to be a number of options to pick from considering the huge availability of MD ships on the open market in canon) the rest can be made pretty much anywhere. Meaning that all you need is the plans...which fit on one of those quarter inch optical disks that come with the advanced tool sets.
So the idea that some how all the IHA stuff would just 'vanish into the abyss never to be seen again' doesn't seem to be very likely.

If nothing else the Black Market will start making them. Seriously, not making them would be idiotic.
Lets see... good, cheap proven gear with a fan base already baked in (anyone anti-CS) all you need to do is start churning it out? ($_$) Yes please.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kenora....
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:46 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
I would also like to point out that the IHA stuff is easy peasy to make.
Other than the big ships (which only need a ship yard of which there appear to be a number of options to pick from considering the huge availability of MD ships on the open market in canon) the rest can be made pretty much anywhere. Meaning that all you need is the plans...which fit on one of those quarter inch optical disks that come with the advanced tool sets.
So the idea that some how all the IHA stuff would just 'vanish into the abyss never to be seen again' doesn't seem to be very likely.

If nothing else the Black Market will start making them. Seriously, not making them would be idiotic.
Lets see... good, cheap proven gear with a fan base already baked in (anyone anti-CS) all you need to do is start churning it out? ($_$) Yes please.


Yes, having access to the correct schematics or some exemplars to reverse-engineer those should be quite possible, specially considering IHA made them the way they were exactly because their tech was somewhat limited in more advanced areas like circuitry, power generation, propulsion and such. Not to mention some people in the right places "losing" some of IHA's machinery amidst a morass of transferences and relocations in the CS' effort to update and adapt New Kenora's factories to their standards and preferences. :wink:


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