Particle beams and critical hits

[StormSeeker]

Is there somewhere I'm missing that says particle beams inherently do crit damage on a natural 19-20?
I see in a couple books it mentions it for certain specific guns, but does it apply to all?

[eliakon]

Is there somewhere I'm missing that says particle beams inherently do crit damage on a natural 19-20?
I see in a couple books it mentions it for certain specific guns, but does it apply to all?

It looks like some of the authors have been incorporating their houserules into the canon.
Thus, we are getting things like how the NG1/NG2 books are full of things that break the published rules and are obviously following homebrew rules that the authors didn't remember weren't canon and didn't publish leaving us to speculate if they are retconning the entire rule, or just those individual items.

But to answer your question. At this time, in Rifts there is no rule that P-Beams automatically do critical damage on a n19 (everything does critical on a n20). That rule is only in HU.

[StormSeeker]

thanks

[glitterboy2098]

i do think that Rifts would benefit from the different weapon types having some flavor benefits of that kind. it would help break up the cookie-cutter nature of some of the weapons a bit.. right now a 3D6md blast, 2000ft range rifle is pretty much identical regardless of whether it is a laser, particle beam, ion, or plasma. Railguns end up slightly different only in that they are much bulkier due to the powerpack and solid ammo requirement.
but if each of the weapon types has some small unique mechanic to them, it would help make the choice of weapon a little more important even if the other stats remain the same.

[eliakon]

i do think that Rifts would benefit from the different weapon types having some flavor benefits of that kind. it would help break up the cookie-cutter nature of some of the weapons a bit.. right now a 3D6md blast, 2000ft range rifle is pretty much identical regardless of whether it is a laser, particle beam, ion, or plasma. Railguns end up slightly different only in that they are much bulkier due to the powerpack and solid ammo requirement.
but if each of the weapon types has some small unique mechanic to them, it would help make the choice of weapon a little more important even if the other stats remain the same.

There could be a value to adding such a mechanic sure. I mean to a certain extent they have more or less begun to do that in the 3Gs space books with various 'off spec' beams having non-standard effects as well.

But the problem is two fold.
1) it requires a lot of retconning, not to mention it would need to be done on a formal basis.

2) it will require determining what a lot of kinds of hitherto undefined energy weapons are. It will also require determining if these effects will carry on to things like spells? Psionics? Super Powers?

There are going to be a lot of second and third order effects here that should be looked at before we just say "Okay, so Particle Beams get a +1 to critical threat range across the board" or the like.

[StormSeeker]

I've always thought it was kinda pointless to have 4 different energy types in the first place, especially with no mechanic differentiating plasma, ion, and particle beam.

Particularly those last two. Physics isn't my strongest suit, but by definition isn't an ion beam a particle beam? Isn't that kinda like specifying one type of gun fires .38 specials, but other guns just say "bullets"?
Seriously, if someone wants to explain it to me, I can't promise I'll understand, but I'll listen attentively

Anyway, I'd drop p-beam, and say that laser is (comparatively) low damage, but long range, plasma is high damage, short range, and ion weapons are moderate damage, short range, but more e-clip efficient than plasma. Which is fairly close to what it is now anyway.

[Shark_Force]

plasma is heat/fire, so that's a difference.

[ShadowLogan]

I've always thought it was kinda pointless to have 4 different energy types in the first place, especially with no mechanic differentiating plasma, ion, and particle beam.

Particularly those last two. Physics isn't my strongest suit, but by definition isn't an ion beam a particle beam? Isn't that kinda like specifying one type of gun fires .38 specials, but other guns just say "bullets"?
Seriously, if someone wants to explain it to me, I can't promise I'll understand, but I'll listen attentively

Anyway, I'd drop p-beam, and say that laser is (comparatively) low damage, but long range, plasma is high damage, short range, and ion weapons are moderate damage, short range, but more e-clip efficient than plasma. Which is fairly close to what it is now anyway.

Plasma in game is defined as intense heat as it is subject to fire/heat resistance/immunity.

There is a difference between Particle Beam and Ions though I can't find it at the moment. I know it is stated the Particle Beams fire sub-atomic particles (either: protons, neutrons, electrons), but I don't recall a description for Ion weapon, though in physics an Ion would be be an atom that has an electrical charge (usually by the loss or gaining of an electron). The closest I could find was in WB7 for the New Navy Ion weapons in what they fire, which seemed to have more in common with Plasma weapon or laser.

[kaid]

I've always thought it was kinda pointless to have 4 different energy types in the first place, especially with no mechanic differentiating plasma, ion, and particle beam.

Particularly those last two. Physics isn't my strongest suit, but by definition isn't an ion beam a particle beam? Isn't that kinda like specifying one type of gun fires .38 specials, but other guns just say "bullets"?
Seriously, if someone wants to explain it to me, I can't promise I'll understand, but I'll listen attentively

Anyway, I'd drop p-beam, and say that laser is (comparatively) low damage, but long range, plasma is high damage, short range, and ion weapons are moderate damage, short range, but more e-clip efficient than plasma. Which is fairly close to what it is now anyway.

Immunity to electric effects ion beams and immunity to heat creatures tend to be immune to plasma. Particle beams tend to be one of those things that short of immunity to energy little is specifically immune to its effect whereas immunity to fire or electricity are not that uncommon especially amongst certain demon/supernatural creatures.

In reality they should all be technically pretty similar but gameplay wise plasma = fire ion = lightning gun and particle beam is its own weird thing.

[The Beast]

I've always thought it was kinda pointless to have 4 different energy types in the first place, especially with no mechanic differentiating plasma, ion, and particle beam.

Particularly those last two. Physics isn't my strongest suit, but by definition isn't an ion beam a particle beam? Isn't that kinda like specifying one type of gun fires .38 specials, but other guns just say "bullets"?
Seriously, if someone wants to explain it to me, I can't promise I'll understand, but I'll listen attentively

Anyway, I'd drop p-beam, and say that laser is (comparatively) low damage, but long range, plasma is high damage, short range, and ion weapons are moderate damage, short range, but more e-clip efficient than plasma. Which is fairly close to what it is now anyway.

Plasma in game is defined as intense heat as it is subject to fire/heat resistance/immunity.

There is a difference between Particle Beam and Ions though I can't find it at the moment. I know it is stated the Particle Beams fire sub-atomic particles (either: protons, neutrons, electrons), but I don't recall a description for Ion weapon, though in physics an Ion would be be an atom that has an electrical charge (usually by the loss or gaining of an electron). The closest I could find was in WB7 for the New Navy Ion weapons in what they fire, which seemed to have more in common with Plasma weapon or laser.

RUE page 358.

[DhAkael]

Seeing as how the NG particle-beams are also stated as doing "50% more damage on a critical strike", I'm inclined to think that means the weapons in question do X2.5 damage as opposed to the standard X2.
Otherwise, if read "the other way", NG PBeams only do X1.5 damage on a crit.

Again, fuzzy vague wording and no concrete hard numbers leaves it up to individual GMs to interpret.

[ShadowLogan]

I've always thought it was kinda pointless to have 4 different energy types in the first place, especially with no mechanic differentiating plasma, ion, and particle beam.

Particularly those last two. Physics isn't my strongest suit, but by definition isn't an ion beam a particle beam? Isn't that kinda like specifying one type of gun fires .38 specials, but other guns just say "bullets"?
Seriously, if someone wants to explain it to me, I can't promise I'll understand, but I'll listen attentively

Anyway, I'd drop p-beam, and say that laser is (comparatively) low damage, but long range, plasma is high damage, short range, and ion weapons are moderate damage, short range, but more e-clip efficient than plasma. Which is fairly close to what it is now anyway.

Plasma in game is defined as intense heat as it is subject to fire/heat resistance/immunity.

There is a difference between Particle Beam and Ions though I can't find it at the moment. I know it is stated the Particle Beams fire sub-atomic particles (either: protons, neutrons, electrons), but I don't recall a description for Ion weapon, though in physics an Ion would be be an atom that has an electrical charge (usually by the loss or gaining of an electron). The closest I could find was in WB7 for the New Navy Ion weapons in what they fire, which seemed to have more in common with Plasma weapon or laser.

RUE page 358.

I saw that, but it was not what I am looking for. Ex. in Fleets of the 3 Galaxies the Neutron Cannon (pg75 and pg72, if not more) states "variation on the particle beam...as opposed to the protons of a standard particle cannon." So we know standard particle beam weapons fire a beam of protons, lasers are firing light (and several known variations), plasma is well plasma. The closest I get is in WB7 pg116 "fires energy 'packets' that explode on contact with a solid object." RUE pg358 as you say only gives "works similar to a laser". What I want to know is what it is actually firing.

[Axelmania]

At this time, in Rifts there is no rule that P-Beams automatically do critical damage on a n19 (everything does critical on a n20). That rule is only in HU.

PB rules in HU have an interesting evolution...

HU2 in 1998: Pg 98 had no special rules for the 96-00 alien weapon. Pretty much lumped together Plasma Ejector and PB rifle as same stats.

HU GM's guide in 1999: pg 216 had the 1-10 misses / 11-17 nicks doing 1d6x10, 18-20 directs do 1d6x10+40, and 21+ apparently has no special rules for damage so you might actually do the damage lists (such as HU2p98's mere 6d6+20). Also has the harms invulnerable @ half damage, overriding HU2p278's complete immunity to non-magical energy weapons.

I think I remember seeing that crit-on-19 rule you're talking about but can't remember where

Seeing as how the NG particle-beams are also stated as doing "50% more damage on a critical strike", I'm inclined to think that means the weapons in question do X2.5 damage as opposed to the standard X2.
Otherwise, if read "the other way", NG PBeams only do X1.5 damage on a crit

Unless it says "only 50% more" or "50% instead of 100%" I would assume it stacks with the usual amounts.

Your x2.5 seems to be simply adding +50% to +100%. There could also be the multiplicative approach in which you would do x1.5x2 or x2x1.5 either way resulting in x3 damage. Sort of like when you double already-doubled damage it's x4 rather than x3 (+100% +100%) unless we're specifically told to only do crits additively like with natural 20s and jump kicks.

[Shark_Force]

i think there's a special rule for a particle beam in nightbane (to be clear, it is literally the rule for *a* particle beam as i recall). might be in shadows and light; that's the book that talks most about the spook squad, which would be the faction most likely to have that kind of tech, imo.

[rem1093]

Robotech has knock down with Particles beams.

As for anything special for the beam weapons, this is what i did.
Ion beams: The electrically charge atoms do double damage to shields, with some versions able to punch a hole on the shield. They can short out non hardened electrical systems.
With living targets it would have the added effect of a nuro-mace, MDC weapons working on MDC creatures. Also they do full damage to energy beings.

Partial Beams: First off there are two types, Pulse, and Stream.
Pulsed Particle weapons, fire a concentrated pulse of ionized particles, like a shotgun slug, that can knock down a target.
Steam weapons fire a steam for particles that produce so much energy that they have a blast radius around the beam. Also if the target has an MDC of half the total damage the beam will keep going
hitting other targets. These types of weapons are always large, and are usually only found as base defenses or the main guns ships.

Plasma: All plasma guns are basically flamethrowers, (since I can't find a way to easily bottle plasma without a physical bottle).

[torjones]

Is there somewhere I'm missing that says particle beams inherently do crit damage on a natural 19-20?
I see in a couple books it mentions it for certain specific guns, but does it apply to all?

No, it only applies to those specific weapons, kinda like the Wilks bonus only applies to those Wilks lasers.

As for other comments on differentiation of the energy weapon types, (yes, these are generalities)
Particle Beams do high damage over short range (and I still think that the NG-P7 is the best weapon in the game for nearly any character)
Lasers do little damage but really reach out and touch someone, unfortunately also suffers from half damage on shiny armor
Plasma is medium range and nearly as good damage as particle beams, and has a little bit of splash, but what that splash is remains undefined and fluffy
IIRC, Ion weapons were very similar to lasers, but don't suffer the underwater penalty all other weapons do
Railguns are kinetic, and therefor bypass the "energy" resistance many supernatural monsters have.

Another point of distinction between the weapon types is that Particle Beams, Plasma weapons, Railguns, missiles and mini-missiles are all WP Heavy Energy Weapons, not WP Energy Rifle. (there was a description of particle beams somewhere that stated that they were WP Heavy Energy, iirc)(Note: WP Heavy Energy Weapons was renamed WP Heavy MD Weapons in RUE)

What I want to know is what it is actually firing.

Unfortunately, I don't think it ever explicitly states, beyond "packets of energy" what the particle beam weapons are actually shooting. Since I don't believe it's officially stated anywhere, I say pick your favorite sub-atomic particle, and go with that, or you can choose Nadions, which is what Star Trek's Federation Phasers and everyone else's Disruptors use. (positive charged Nadions for Federations Phasers, and negative charged Nadions for Disruptors) (unless someone can actually show where it says what they actually are shooting anyway)