MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

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Does an MDC creature take MD damage from an SDC attack that it is vulnerable to?

Poll ended at Sun May 19, 2019 7:48 am

Yes, an SDC attack deals MD damage to a vulnerable creature unless explicitly stated otherwise.
16
73%
No, the damage is still SD unless it is explicitly stated that it converts to MD damage.
5
23%
Undecided.
1
5%
 
Total votes: 22

HWalsh
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MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by HWalsh »

Quoting the original comment:
Splynncryth's write up says it has a vulnerability to silver and magic. They do triple damage. Does an MDC creature like a Splugorth take damage from a SDC attack it has a vulnerability to?


This question was insisted on being wrongly worded. So here is the corrected version.

Splynncryth's write up says that he is vulnerable to silver and magic. They do triple damage.

Does an MDC creature like a Splugorth take triple damage in MDC from an SDC attack that it has a vulnerability to?
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by Vincent Takeda »

In one way I'd say yes, and in the other I'd say the issue is moot. Typically when magic enters an mdc arena, it starts doing megadamage all by itself, so in terms of magic, the question is moot. Against silver its not as cut and dry, but at my table I'd say sure. I mean... There's no such thing as 'megadamage silver', so if it didn't work that way, whats the point of it having a vulnerability to a weapon that only does laughable amounts of damage to it.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by kaid »

The whole point of the vulnerabilities from early rifts on was that these supernatural demon/creatures where as strong as tanks but had weird vulnerabilities so that they could be hurt/killed via mundane means. If they needed to be MDC silver/wood attacks it would totally defeat the purpose of a vulnerability as they would be just as strong to those as to anything else.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by kaid »

One amusing example of this is from one of the chaos earth books where there is a demon that takes MDC damage from rooster crowing. These things are not of this earth and have some very odd flaws that if you have the right equipment can be very effective against them. Stuff like this is why monster hunter/slayers have an edge. They understand what they are hunting and ways some seemingly unbeatable opponent is vulnerable to strangely common things.

I should also note that if you look at NG2 the dedicated monster slaying power armor has two SDC machine guns specifically to equip silver/wood flechette rounds for use on supernatural creatures vulnerable to wood/silver. If that did not indicate the damage basically converts into MDC on applicable targets there would be no point having them. Also I think the reason they don't specify MDC damage is some of the targets those weapons get used on are things like vampires/undead where instead it converts to HP damage.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by Axelmania »

Vincent Takeda wrote:Typically when magic enters an mdc arena, it starts doing megadamage all by itself, so in terms of magic, the question is moot.

RUE202 spell "Energy Bolt" does 4D6 SDC.

RUE205 spell "Fire Bolt" has an option for a mage to choose for the spell to do 1D6x10 SDC instead of 4D6 MD.

RUE207 spell "Circle of Flames" does 6D6 SDC.

This is a moot point for the Splugorth since their vulnerability is to "magic weapons" (not magic in general) but it's something important to consider for other beings who might have magic listed as a vulnerability. Should these normally inferior spells suddenly become better than the MD spells?

It is worth taking a look at page 153 of Atlantis which has "Miscellaneous Bio-Wizard Weapons". The "Jolt Gun" should qualify as a magic weapon. Instead of using the highest (1D4 MD) setting to do 1D4*3 MD to Splynncryth, if the house rule proposed by HWalsh to convert SDC is applied, you would be better off to use the 2nd-highest 4D6 SDC setting to inflict 4D6*3 MD to him.

Page 125 the "Barge Blasters" are in a similar situation.

Vincent Takeda wrote:There's no such thing as 'megadamage silver', so if it didn't work that way, whats the point of it having a vulnerability to a weapon that only does laughable amounts of damage to it.

Well firstly because it makes the threshold (100) more achievable in the first place (34x3=102) meaning a wider variety of weapons would have a chance of doing minor harm in the first place.

We are told that those with supernatural PS use the greater of weapon damage or punch damage when using weapons, so that would be a way to inflict MD using mundane silver. That's been around since CB1.

Is there anything preventing a rune weapon from being made of silver? Also around since CB1.

CB1 also, pg 54 had Holy Weapons which would convert to MD for supernatural beings of selfish/evil alignment, which would apply to Splynncryth since he is Anarchist.

Apoks can wield silver weapons and cause them to inflict MD. They've been around since DB1.

Vampire Kingdoms (WB1) pg 29 mentions that falling into a wooden stake tiger pit inflits 2D4x10 SDC for example, and I don't see any reason why you couldn't make a pit trap out of silver spikes too. 2D4x30 damage more often than not will inflict over 100 damage (or view it as 2D4x10 doing more than 33 damage) most of the time.

Raoul Lazarious has a silver polearm that does 3d6, if he lent that to Mii-Tarr who has +15 damage he could do 33, just shy of 100, but a critical on an 18-20 would bridge that gap!

You could also specify that the Flaming Weapon made from a magical tattoo is silver. That's been around since WB2.

Sea Inquisitors can wield silver weapons and cause them to inflict MD (WB7)

Larhold Renegades (WB9) can add their MD punch damage when using weapons.

Can you cast "Power Weapon" on a Silver weapon? That's been around since WB16.

Page 124 (right column) of Mystic Russia (WB17) explicitly mentioned that when Kuznya forge weapons out of silver they will convert to MD for free, bypassing the normal "Inflict Mega-Damage" costs from right column of 123 to left column of 124.

Splynn Dimensional Market (WB21) pg 172 has Techno-Wizard "Mega Blade" attachments for weapons change their damage to mega-damage.

Mercenary Adventures 25 as the Magebane OCC which can temporarily change dmg to MD.

There's plenty of ways to get MD-inflicting silver which essentially get shafted by this house rule upgrading all silver to do MD to Splugorth.

kaid wrote:The whole point of the vulnerabilities from early rifts on was that these supernatural demon/creatures where as strong as tanks but had weird vulnerabilities so that they could be hurt/killed via mundane means.

Are you referring to the random supernatural beings table at the back of RMB by "early Rifts".

That's not the case for those with a vulnerability to energy or light, you still needed MD to hurt them.

kaid wrote:If they needed to be MDC silver/wood attacks it would totally defeat the purpose of a vulnerability as they would be just as strong to those as to anything else.

Random supernatural beings in early rifts had a note to convert silver/wood. Nobody is talking about altering them.

We're talking about whether or not alien intelligences (the Splugorth) should for some reason inherit the weakness of those Shifter-slave wusses.

kaid wrote:One amusing example of this is from one of the chaos earth books where there is a demon that takes MDC damage from rooster crowing.

Chaos Earth may be "early Rifts" in the in-universe timeline, but it came out much later in our publication history.

kaid wrote:These things are not of this earth and have some very odd flaws that if you have the right equipment can be very effective against them. Stuff like this is why monster hunter/slayers have an edge. They understand what they are hunting and ways some seemingly unbeatable opponent is vulnerable to strangely common things.

They would also understand, assuming they knew about Splugorth (who probably fall outside normal monster lore, as not many would fight them and live to tell the tale, or be able to discern damage to something with thousands of MDC...) that unlike other silver-vulnerable monsters, they can shrug off most normal silver weapons unless they are wielded by a particularly strong person or are quite gruesome (enough to manage 34 damage so that when applying the x3 it exceeds 100)

kaid wrote:I should also note that if you look at NG2 the dedicated monster slaying power armor has two SDC machine guns specifically to equip silver/wood flechette rounds for use on supernatural creatures vulnerable to wood/silver. If that did not indicate the damage basically converts into MDC on applicable targets there would be no point having them.

I don't think the intention of that power armor is for engaging the Splugorth in particular.

There are plenty of monsters who do convert the damage into mega-damage, such as randomly generated monsters in RMB or the Russian Demons in Mystic Russia.

Splugorth do not happen to be one of those examples.

kaid wrote:Also I think the reason they don't specify MDC damage is some of the targets those weapons get used on are things like vampires/undead where instead it converts to HP damage.

You don't need to specify it under the weapons: you specify it under the monster. You define what a vulnerability means.

"Vulnerable" can simply mean noting something a creature isn't immune to, for example. It doesn't by default mean "convert damage to mega-damage" and there has never been any grounds for that to be assumed where it isn't written: that would be a house rule (non-canon).

An example of this can be found under Conversion Book Revised under page 49's "Energy Absorption":
Is still vulnerable to kinetic energy, meaning punches, kicks, thrown weapons, bullets, explosions and so on, which will do full dam­age.

This would not mean, for example, that if a mutant had another power giving them MDC, that 1d4 SDC punches would suddenly inflict 1d4 MD to them.

Similarly on 49 "Intangibility":
the intangible character is still vulnerable to all electric attacks

That wouldn't mean, if they had another power making them MDC, that SDC electrical attacks would directly convert to MD against them.

Page 87, the Algor:
Vulnerability: Heat and fire based magic does 50% greater damage than usual

This does not in any way mean that Algor (who are now MDC creatures as of Revised) would convert SDC fire damage like Circle of Fire into mega-damage. It's an increase of 50%, not 14,950%. When conversion happens (such as the Scarecrow on pg 194) we're told!

Same with Nimro on page 94, damage from ice magic would not convert to MD. Nor does it happen with Fire Worms (186-187) who only take double from cold, not dmg>MD from cold.

Pg 177 says Spectres are "vulnerable to magic". That doesn't mean SDC magic like energy bolt does 4D6 MD to them.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by dreicunan »

Page 124 (right column) of Mystic Russia (WB17) explicitly mentioned that when Kuznya forge weapons out of silver they will convert to MD for free, bypassing the normal "Inflict Mega-Damage" costs from right column of 123 to left column of 124.
Hmm...could that be because silver has special properties towards the supernatural?

If you really believe that a vulnerability from WB2 was written with a whole bunch of things from World Books that wouldn't come out for years, if not decades, after it was published, you have a very high opinion of Kevin S's prescience.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by taalismn »

dreicunan wrote:
If you really believe that a vulnerability from WB2 was written with a whole bunch of things from World Books that wouldn't come out for years, if not decades, after it was published, you have a very high opinion of Kevin S's prescience.


You doubt the Kwisatz Haderach, unbeliever?
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by dreicunan »

taalismn wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
If you really believe that a vulnerability from WB2 was written with a whole bunch of things from World Books that wouldn't come out for years, if not decades, after it was published, you have a very high opinion of Kevin S's prescience.


You doubt the Kwisatz Haderach, unbeliever?

Are you claiming that Kevin S is the one generation too soon product of a massive, multigenerational inbreeding program?
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by taalismn »

dreicunan wrote:[
Are you claiming that Kevin S is the one generation too soon product of a massive, multigenerational inbreeding program?

No, that he has big worms in his backyard.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Does an MDC creature like a Splugorth take triple damage in MDC from an SDC attack that it has a vulnerability to?

Yes damage is converted to whatever "level" of damage capacity it uses, in the case of the Splogorth it would be MDC on Rifts Earth (SDC in HU/PF). Vampires/Were-creatures take HP damage.

While 1MDC = 100SDC/HP, neither use fractional point damage in tracking (ie you don't do 0.1 or 0.25 point of damage, even when you roll with damage).
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by eliakon »

Please note this is a modified repost from a discussion on silver and not all vulnerabilities in specific. But the exact same logic applies, and more to the point one can read the citations on silver and go back and read the entire sections cited on vulnerabilities in general.

It still seems pretty cut and dry.
Lets explore... Silver shall we?

RMB (1990) sets up the concept of "vulnerability" starting on page 249.
Rifts Main Book page 249 wrote: "Note Most supernatural creatures are especially vulnerable to a particular item/element such as fire, water, or iron, and so on; even weapons (of this element) that are normally S.D.C. weapons will inflict mega-damage on the supernatural being. This is the result of some unusual disparity in the physical laws that govern our world and the dimension in which the being normally exists. See Weakness."


Hmmm, lets go to weakness then and see what it says about silver.
Rifts Main Book page 250 wrote: 66-75 Silver. The paranormal monster is vulnerable to weapons made of silver (including bullets). Basically works the same as Weapons of Iron."

Okay then, lets read what it says about Iron?

Rifts Main Book page 250 wrote: "Weapons of Iron (Must be 88% pure iron) inflicts the mega-damage equivalent of the normal, ancient, S.D.C. weapon, i.e., a pure iron short sword that normally inflicts 1d6 S.D.C. damage inflicts 1d6 mega-damage (M.D.) against this creature. A 1d8 S.D.C. mace does 1d8 M.D. but only against this creature. Against normal humans the weapons are simple S.D.C. items."


But that was just the animalistic predators. What about intelligent beings?

RMB 1 on page 251 also has this to say about "Intelligent supernatural monsters"
Rifts Main Book page 251 wrote:"Note: The intelligent supernatural creatures are also vulnerable to a particular item/element such as fire, water, or iron and so on; even weapons that are normally S.D.C. weapons will inflict mega- damage on the supernatural being. See Weakness."


From this we see that substances you have a weakness to do MDC is the general default rule supernatural beings, since this is before we have official beings, this table is officially how all monsters are created!

But what about Intelligences you ask?

Then in Conversion Book 1 (1991) we have the Intelligence Random Table on page 206.
they first show up sets up the ground rules on Intelligences.
Conversion Book 1 Page 206 wrote: "01-40% Vulnerable to weapons made of silver: Inflicts M.D. equal to its usual M.D. in damage."

What do you know... the normal rule is still the normal rule

World Book 1 (1991) introduces a new Intelligence, the VI. This intelligence does NOT follow the normal rules. And that deviation is spelled out to us as one of its powers as found on page 11
Vampire Kingdoms page 11 wrote: "Wood, silver, running water and holy water inflict damage direct to hit points!"



World Book 2 (1992) Introduces the second Intelligence Race... the Splugorth. This race though follows the rules in CB1 to a "t" with the minor exception that the damage multipliers of the weaknesses are changed. Again, only the multiplier is called out as being different from the template in CB1. Other than that they are almost exactly like the template as found in the book. Their stats are either the same or nearly so, their MDC is pretty close and their powers? Identical down to their summoning in of minions being identical to the CB1 demon summoning powers!

We see this format followed in WB 2 where the multiplier of some things is changed and a new vulnerability (Millennium) is added.
For this discussion I would like to note that page 9 of Conversion Book 3 reprints the text on vulnerabilities word for word.

Then on Mystic Russia page 124 we see the nature of silver. Again.
Mystic Russia page 124 wrote: "Silver: Namely a metal that can hurt a large number of otherwise invulnerable or semi-invulnerable supernatural beings evein in S.D.C. form. Such S.D.C. silver weapons inflict the equivilant S.D.C. damage as M.D. (i.e. a silver sword that inflicts 2d6 S.D.C would inflict 2d6 M.D.). If the metal is 90% (or better) in purety, the weapon inflicts an additional 1d6 damage to beings vulnerable to it. Aslo known as the "moon silver metal"
P.P.E. Cost: Zero."


The PPE cost zero is important here. These are the inherent properties of the Metal themselves that the Kyuzna is awakening. In this case the property is already awake!

But wait! That's not all!
Moving to Creatures of Chaos page 10 we get a discussion on weaknesses and then on page 13
Creatures of Chaos page 13 wrote: "Silver is a very common material that has a profound effect on demons and other supernatural beings (good and evil). Creatures Vulnerable to silver suffer Mega-Damage from weapons made of, or coated with the metal. In most cases damage is the S.D.C. equivalent in M.D., but some beings take double damage or a specified amount of damage as presented in that being's individual description."


Ouch... so once again, the default is that you take the SDC as MDC unless the rules say that you take MORE!

More over in all my searching I have not been able to find a *single* example of any creature that has a note that has a vulnerability to something but that it does NOT take MDC from that vulnerability... which would lead one to suspect that such a state of affairs does not even exist with in the official rules as a possibility which would be why it is not addressed in every write up any more than humans have to have a note that they are SDC creatures and thus take 100x rolled damage from MDC attacks.

Thus the idea that every other part of the format was followed except for this one, single part seems... unrealistic.
Especially since there is not, to my knowledge, any canonical support for the existence of the claimed state of affairs to even be possible.

TL:DR
You always take MD from your vulnerabilities because in every written write up on the topic of vulnerabilities when they are described this is spelled out. More over in every discussion on the nature of something being a vulnerability item this is also spelled out. There is no evidence in any place in any book of a counter to this other than the fact that some creatures simply note that they have vulnerability to something... which is to be expected because we can read the rules on vulnerability and know what that means with out having to put the entire text in every creature every time!
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by Axelmania »

dreicunan wrote:
Page 124 (right column) of Mystic Russia (WB17) explicitly mentioned that when Kuznya forge weapons out of silver they will convert to MD for free, bypassing the normal "Inflict Mega-Damage" costs from right column of 123 to left column of 124.
Hmm...could that be because silver has special properties towards the supernatural?

No. It's MD period (to everything) when a Kuznya forges it.

dreicunan wrote:If you really believe that a vulnerability from WB2 was written with a whole bunch of things from World Books that wouldn't come out for years, if not decades, after it was published, you have a very high opinion of Kevin S's prescience.

He'd already written such an ability for the Pogtal and Apok, who's to say how many others he had in mind?

The ability to silver-plate existing weapons has existed since the Palladium RPG days. There are many "silver-plated Vibro-Blades" found in Warlods of Russia:
    120 (the Butcher's claws, but not vibro-swords)
    123 (the Ripper's fingers but not buzzsaw)
    125 (the White Tiger Borg)
    131 (the Aftermath Borg)
    132 (the Avenging Angel, scythe/hands/feet)
    140 (the Demonfist borg)
    219 (the Thunderhammer)
    221 (the Thunderstrike)
    223 (the Thunderstorm)

Page 188 clarifies that to silver a knife only costs 100 extra credits, so taking on Splynncryth with a silver-plated Vibro-Knife has always been a readily accessible option.

Siembieda may have neglected to point out the validity of that approach prior to then, or its cost but it still always existed and would be an obvious answer as to when the x3 from silver would be readily applicable.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Does an MDC creature like a Splugorth take triple damage in MDC from an SDC attack that it has a vulnerability to?

Yes damage is converted to whatever "level" of damage capacity it uses, in the case of the Splogorth it would be MDC on Rifts Earth (SDC in HU/PF).

I 100% agree that you would convert 100 damage to 1 MD. Normally you'd only do that with explosives, but I'll make a special exception in the case of vulnerabilities.

eliakon wrote:RMB (1990) sets up the concept of "vulnerability" starting on page 249.
Rifts Main Book page 249 wrote: "Note Most supernatural creatures are especially vulnerable to a particular item/element such as fire, water, or iron, and so on; even weapons (of this element) that are normally S.D.C. weapons will inflict mega-damage on the supernatural being. This is the result of some unusual disparity in the physical laws that govern our world and the dimension in which the being normally exists. See Weakness."


The Weakness table only defines how weaknesses work for randomly generated monsters, they are never instructed as being inherited for specifically described creatures elsewhere.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Page 124 (right column) of Mystic Russia (WB17) explicitly mentioned that when Kuznya forge weapons out of silver they will convert to MD for free, bypassing the normal "Inflict Mega-Damage" costs from right column of 123 to left column of 124.
Hmm...could that be because silver has special properties towards the supernatural?

No. It's MD period (to everything) when a Kuznya forges it.

Incorrect. It states that it does MD to things with that weakness. Thus it only does MD to things that are vulnerable to MD... which is of course why it costs 0 PPE... because that is the default state of affairs and thus there is nothing that needs to be activated.

Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:RMB (1990) sets up the concept of "vulnerability" starting on page 249.
Rifts Main Book page 249 wrote: "Note Most supernatural creatures are especially vulnerable to a particular item/element such as fire, water, or iron, and so on; even weapons (of this element) that are normally S.D.C. weapons will inflict mega-damage on the supernatural being. This is the result of some unusual disparity in the physical laws that govern our world and the dimension in which the being normally exists. See Weakness."


The Weakness table only defines how weaknesses work for randomly generated monsters, they are never instructed as being inherited for specifically described creatures elsewhere.

Again you seem to be deliberately missing the point.
This is the first use of the terms "Weakness" and "Vulnerability" as a rule... and they explain, in detail, what that means. Details that are repeated in, quite literally, every repetition of the definition in any book with MD for the next 25+ years.
And from then on, in every book hence forth, every creature, ever, that uses that term has followed this rule.
So the claim that "weakness" as a term only applies to randomly generated monsters and that the word has no meaning anywhere else is a non-starter.
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Re: MDC creatures and vulnerabilities (poll)

Unread post by Axelmania »

eliakon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:It's MD period (to everything) when a Kuznya forges it.

Incorrect. It states that it does MD to things with that weakness. Thus it only does MD to things that are vulnerable to MD...

Let's take a look...
    a metal that can hurt a large number of otherwise invulnerable or semi-invulnerable supernatural beings in SDC form
    such silver weapons inflict the equivalent SDC damage as MD
    (ie a silver sword that inflicts 2D6 SDC would inflict 2D6 MD)
    If the metal is 90% (or better) in purity, the weapon inflicts an additional 1D6 damage to beings vulnerable to it.
I suppose you are thinking the "inflict the equivalent .. as MD" is only referencing the previous sentence ("a large number") rather than in general?

In which case, I could see that as referring to the Russian Demons defined earlier in the book.

eliakon wrote:which is of course why it costs 0 PPE... because that is the default state of affairs and thus there is nothing that needs to be activated.

This is not the default state of affairs despite costing 0 PPE. There are abilities out there which don't cost PPE to activate, that doesn't mean they don't need to be activated by a person with that power.

This is part of the section "Magic Bonuses from Different Types of Metal" which clearly states "types of metal in the hands of a Kuznya

Although it says "in a few cases, the traits and bonuses are innate and don't require additional PPE to activate" a Kuznya still needs to activate them.

A clear example of this would be Bronze in the next section:
The weapon itself is automatically impervious to all types of fire (no PPE necessary)
As well as copper in the section after that:
The weapon is automatically impervious to fire (no PPE)

Normal bronze and copper weapons are clearly NOT impervious to all types of fire, so 0 PPE traits in this section are clearly magical traits endowed by a Kuznya at zero-cost, not inherent properties of weapons. Innate properties are still absent until a Kuznya releases them with their skill.

Page 125 has a couple examples too: Kuznya-forged Iron gets the free benefit of doing damage to impervious energy beings, ghosts and spirits. Kuznya-forged Magic MD arrows (which costs 30 PPE for 3, so about 10 PPE each) get "no exctra charge" benefits based on the metal its made of. Silver mentions "the usual effects on many supernatural creatures" which would obviously be described under those specific supernatural creatures.

eliakon wrote:This is the first use of the terms "Weakness" and "Vulnerability" as a rule... and they explain, in detail, what that means.

They are rules that apply to randomly generated supernatural beings, and it certainly does explain in detail how THEIR weaknesses work for THEM.

eliakon wrote:Details that are repeated in, quite literally, every repetition of the definition in any book with MD for the next 25+ years.

No. Wrong.

eliakon wrote:from then on, in every book hence forth, every creature, ever, that uses that term has followed this rule.

They don't, though. An obvious example is how Vampires' vulnerability to light is different from Alien Intelligence's, vulnerability to light or the randos' vulnerability to light.

eliakon wrote:So the claim that "weakness" as a term only applies to randomly generated monsters and that the word has no meaning anywhere else is a non-starter.

I've never said that the word only applies to randos or that it is meaningless elsewhere, but rather that it holds no inherent transferable meaning of dmg>MD and that what it means is defined on a case by case basis.
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