Shields and House Rules... Discuss

[HWalsh]

So I am posting this thread, because in another one about tattoos the discussion has shifted toward shields and shield mechanics.

Currently shields are the worst form of protection in the game. Some people house rule them to be cover, but that isn't how they work RAW.

Why are they the worst? A successful parry results in the shield being damaged and ultimately destroyed. A successful parry with a weapon results in no damage and is usually just as easy to do as with a shield.

So what can we do to fix this?

Well, I'm not sure.

One of the things I do, frequently, is treat shields as a paired weapon without requiring a paired weapon proficiency.

Why is that a big deal? Well, this goes into another discussion that was going on that was locked, so I don't want to resurrect it here, but basically paired weapons is a HUGE advantage in melee combat, if you fight someone who has paired weapons and you DON'T have paired weapons you are at an automatic disadvantage. However... Not every class can get paired weapons (prior to high levels from a HtH skill) as it is restricted to Men at Arms OCCs only.

Why is that significant?

Most RCCs aren't able to take an OCC and no RCCs without explicit permissions can take paired weapons.
No men of magic can take paired weapons (So your True Atlantean Undead Slayer? He can't take paired weapons. He's a practitioner of magic. Your Mystic Knight? Same deal. Not a Man at Arms OCC, etc.)

So if a shield allowed someone the advantage of having a "free" paired weapon (which, as a shield it would be limited somewhat) it allows things like simultaneous strike while using the shield to parry, and the like. This gives shields an inherent value. It explains (somewhat) that a shield has a drawback because it allows an ability that is normally reserved for less than 1/4 (I actually did check) of the OCCs in the game.

So that is one solution I use, the shield can take damage, but allows you to treat it like a paired weapon if you don't have paired weapons.

To add to that, if you are a Men at Arms OCC, and you have paired weapons, I allow the shield to take no damage on a successful parry as I treat it like a weapon, not as a shield.

In both cases I also allow shields to parry bullets at no penalty aside from the range penalty to dodge, in which case, proficient in paired or not, the shield takes damage.

What fixes have you found that work.

PS. I do not allow shields as cover, save for specifically tower shields, and even then I don't allow full cover.

[lather]

Never really been a big deal. Since shields are only damaged by called shots (which may or may not be possible in HtH combat ), they are just an extra layer of armor.

The best fix I've found is to not pay more attention to rules detail than the game's designer and play the game the way the game's designer intended.

[Shark_Force]

i simply use the armour rating rules of palladium's SDC games. the bigger the shield, the bigger the bonus. the WP shield bonuses to parry are also added to the AR the shield provides. the armour rating only applies in the frontal arc generally speaking (there could be exceptions, like if someone has a prehensile tail and something to allow awareness of attacks from the rear).

broadly speaking, it winds up working mostly like cyborg body armour; i don't make shields cost much, because they don't need to be as precisely shaped as body armour, nor do they need features like environmental protection, so they're much less expensive to produce than equivalent armour, and can be made with far less complex equipment (you *can* make a shield out of a plate of MDC material that has a handle glued to it, for example, although that isn't the ideal by any means).

i don't generally allow a standard shield to be used as cover unless the user isn't particularly interacting with things in that direction or moving around a lot. specialized shields (something like a breaching shield, for example) can provide cover, however, with a penalty to the called shot equal to the parry bonus from WP shield.

there is such a thing as a large body shield with transparent sections (or in rare cases cameras) and gun ports, but they are more expensive, and also heavy. i've been leaning towards adding PS requirements to use them without significant penalties.

[eliakon]

My rules are pretty simple.
1) I allow shields to serve as partial cover. The size of the shield determines the amount of cover. Small shields won't provide much if any cover but large ones like tower shields, wall shields, riot shields, mecha shields, missile shields and the rest can... and do
As a defensive action I allow people to "take cover" behind their shields maximizing this defense.

2) I allow the shield skill to be used as a paired bonus "for free". If you have shield you are treated as having the paired weapon combination of any weapon you have a WP in and shield... and I allow that to apply to handguns as well.

3) I don't have shields damaged on normal parries.

4) On a failed auto parry, I allow the player to make a second parry roll. Yes, this is an example of a double defense, and shields are one of the few things that can do it. It costs an action just like a dodge does. The parry gets a bonus based on the shields size value If you succeed you still parry, but the shield takes damage as it was not in optimal position.

Yes, I know that this makes the shield suddenly a lot more impressive as a defensive tool...
And I am fine with that. In my opinion this more than makes up having to carry a shield and makes them something of value instead of an inferior substitute for an off-hand weapon.

And yes rule #4 makes Rune Shields absurdly good as a defensive item. Again I am totally fine with a Rune Shield being the last word in melee defense.

[dreicunan]

When it comes to shooting at someone, shields of sufficient size to cover the main body provide cover. To me, that's not even a house rule, but a simple application of the rules for shooting at someone behind cover and the rules for hitting something other than the main body. Ergo, when shooting at someone behind a shield that covers the main body, a called shot is needed to hit something other than the shield. If the shield is large enough that you can hunker down behind it and your opponent can't see any part of you, then you have full cover, because that's what the rules for ahooting at someone in cover say.

Another rule is to follow what RUE says about taking damage and not using the optional rule, so they only take damage from blocking energy blasts, explosions, or when specifically targeted.

In melee, a simple solution to make sure that shields are actually a prime defensive item is to increase the bonus to parry to +6 at level one, then grant +1 at 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, and 15.

[Mack]

i simply use the armour rating rules of palladium's SDC games. the bigger the shield, the bigger the bonus.

This prompted me to look at shields in PF2, and I just noticed that shields appear to missing from the book. Anyone got a page number where I missed them?

That aside, I like the idea of simply giving shields a AR based on size.

And I agree with dreicunan, WP Shield should give a better starting bonus to parry.

[lather]

i simply use the armour rating rules of palladium's SDC games. the bigger the shield, the bigger the bonus.

This prompted me to look at shields in PF2, and I just noticed that shields appear to missing from the book. Anyone got a page number where I missed them?

That aside, I like the idea of simply giving shields a AR based on size.

And I agree with dreicunan, WP Shield should give a better starting bonus to parry.

Some content is available on the Cutting Room floor.
https://palladiumbooks.com/questions-re ... shield-sdc

[Mack]

Some content is available on the Cutting Room floor.
https://palladiumbooks.com/questions-re ... shield-sdc

Thank you. Thought it was odd I couldn't find it. Too bad they didn't list ARs.

I'm kicking around the following approach...

-- Small Shields (Buckler size): No AR, but great for parrying.
-- Medium Shields (Cavalier size): AR 13, rolls to strike at/below the AR automatically hit the shield, no need to parry. Defender can still attempt a parry if the attack roll is higher.
-- Large Shields (Tower size): AR 16 (same rule as medium) but gets only half the parry bonus because it's unwieldy. [I figure there ought to be a downside here.]

[ShadowLogan]

i simply use the armour rating rules of palladium's SDC games. the bigger the shield, the bigger the bonus.

This prompted me to look at shields in PF2, and I just noticed that shields appear to missing from the book. Anyone got a page number where I missed them?

That aside, I like the idea of simply giving shields a AR based on size.

And I agree with dreicunan, WP Shield should give a better starting bonus to parry.

Shield stats in the main PF2E book are found in the WP Description on pg60.

I do agree WP Shield seems to be light on the parry bonus.

[The Beast]

i simply use the armour rating rules of palladium's SDC games. the bigger the shield, the bigger the bonus.

This prompted me to look at shields in PF2, and I just noticed that shields appear to missing from the book. Anyone got a page number where I missed them?

That aside, I like the idea of simply giving shields a AR based on size.

And I agree with dreicunan, WP Shield should give a better starting bonus to parry.

Shield stats in the main PF2E book are found in the WP Description on pg60.

I do agree WP Shield seems to be light on the parry bonus.

Not in the first printing of that book. That info was left out.

[Axelmania]

I'd like to see ARs reinterpreted as bonuses. Treating the basic "free AR" everyone has as 4 (since that would be a miss anyway) so instead of AR 5 you would just say AR+1. That way if you get AR from your race, your armor, your shield, it could all stack and make finding chinks real tricky.

[Hotrod]

My experience has been that shields sucking so badly in the megaversal rules is rarely an issue in Rifts, since very few characters use them.

In Palladium Fantasy, revamping shields is part of my house rules designed to make melee combat and equipment choices more interesting. Specifically, I do the following:
+W.P. Shield automatically grants the ability to dual-wield any 1-handed melee weapon with a small shield similar to Paired Weapons (simultaneous strike/parry, simultaneous strike/bash).
+Shield users can parry arrows without penalty.
+Shield users can dodge/cover behind a shield to auto-block arrows and thrown weapons from the front. Doing so gives up their next attack.
+Frontal attacks against a shield user require a called shot (not for the side/back). Small shields require a lower roll (10). Large (tower) shields require a higher roll (15).
+Large shield users can shield one extra person from incoming missiles, but they can't be used with any simultaneous Paired Weapons attacks (no simultaneous strike/parry, no simultaneous bash/slash).

[SpiritInterface]

The group I game with set up a matrix for AR(cover) and MDC/SDC based on size, shape, and material that the shield is made of. We also set parry and damage adds based on the same data.

[Killer Cyborg]

When it comes to shooting at someone, shields of sufficient size to cover the main body provide cover. To me, that's not even a house rule, but a simple application of the rules for shooting at someone behind cover and the rules for hitting something other than the main body. Ergo, when shooting at someone behind a shield that covers the main body, a called shot is needed to hit something other than the shield. If the shield is large enough that you can hunker down behind it and your opponent can't see any part of you, then you have full cover, because that's what the rules for ahooting at someone in cover say.

Exactly.
If a person's Main Body is behind an object large enough, then the Main Body has cover.
Could be a shield, a tree, a rock, another character, or anything with significant MDC or SDC.

What would be a house rule would be to decide that Shields are unique objects in the entire megaverse, defying the standard rules for cover.