Magic Tattoo observations.

[Mack]

I recently picked a copy of Secrets of the Atlanteans, and enjoy the new tattoos. But there's a few things I noticed.

1) Tattoos are normally grouped into two broad categories: Simple (animal and SDC weapons) and Major (MDC Weapons, Powers, Monsters, & Dimension). But there's no instruction for how Animal or Weapon Enhancements fit in that structure. My take is that a enhancement to a SDC weapon or animal counts as a simple, while an enhancement to a MDC weapon or Monster counts as a major.

2) Magic Weapon tattoos can have enhancements included when the tattoo is acquired. The combination counts as one tattoo (p153). So you can get a Flaming & Dripping Axe, with Electric Arcs & Black Thorns and it all counts as a single tattoo, provided all three are done at once.

However, the same is not true for Animal/Monster tattoos with enhancements. Each enhancement counts as an additional tattoo (p148). Think I'd house-rule this to match weapon enhancements. Seems like a horse and saddle shouldn't count at two.

3) The horse illustration on p149 isn't book legal. It's got four enhancements where the limit is three. (OK, I'm nit-picking.)

4) Getting a tattoo of a wasp finally makes a little sense, if you add a ranged attack to it. Although your now paying 22 PPE for a wasp that hits for 3D6 SDC.

5) Simple weapons are indestructible (p152), yet the Simple SDC Shield (same page) has 200 SDC and can be destroyed and needs twice as much PPE as a simple weapon.

6) Heart within a Rift (Sustain) (p177). Not sure why this is a Dimension tattoo instead of Power. Unless the Voyagers are selfish and just don't want to share with Undead Slayers.

7) A bit dissappointed there's not a better self-healing tattoo. Phoenix requires a big ole 124 PPE, which if a Tattooed Man is wounded enough to need 100 MDC of healing I'm willing to bet he's low on PPE too. Death Touch remains the odd choice for self-healing (can recover 1D6x10+10 MDC for only 40 PPE).

8 ) There's no standout 'best' solution for a ranged attack tattoo (and that's a good thing). There's several different routes one can take, each with their own tradeoffs.

There's a few tattoos from the Rifter that I wish were included, but that's fine. There's also a handful of tweaks to old tattoos, which was nice.

[kaid]

A lot of tattoo warriors defensive powers give them pretty big shields/fields so that they are not directly taking the damage. So in a lot of cases you don't need that much healing. But yes their healing options are fairly limited otherwise.

Most of the dimensional tattoos are not normally available to undead slayers but something like the sustain one is probably something if you know you are going to or getting posted somewhere it would be useful/necessary then your tattoo artists would probably OK it.

[kaid]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

[eliakon]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

[ShadowLogan]

3) The horse illustration on p149 isn't book legal. It's got four enhancements where the limit is three. (OK, I'm nit-picking.)

Possible explanation (or two):
Not all the enhancements are true enhancements, one is just decoration (does anything say that a T-man can only get magic tattoos?)

Alternatively (house rule) maybe you can get more than 3, but when you activate the tattoo power matrix only 3 of the enhancements will activate. Weather the T-man has control of which 3 or if its random is GM's call.

[kaid]

3) The horse illustration on p149 isn't book legal. It's got four enhancements where the limit is three. (OK, I'm nit-picking.)

Possible explanation (or two):
Not all the enhancements are true enhancements, one is just decoration (does anything say that a T-man can only get magic tattoos?)

Alternatively (house rule) maybe you can get more than 3, but when you activate the tattoo power matrix only 3 of the enhancements will activate. Weather the T-man has control of which 3 or if its random is GM's call.

I am guessing that not all of them are true enhancements some are just artistic/stylistic flourshes. It may even be a way for tattoo warriors to throw opponents off. So its harder to tell at a glance what tattoo powers your opponent has or what they are capable of.

[VIsgar]

I noticed Cracked Skull tattoo was upgraded to have a ranged component (100+10 feet per level) instead of being touch based and became Mental Blast with its wonderful cumulative effect.

I've always wondered how effective a T-Man would would be with most of the touch based tattoos activated in melee combat.

[kaid]

I noticed Cracked Skull tattoo was upgraded to have a ranged component (100+10 feet per level) instead of being touch based and became Mental Blast with its wonderful cumulative effect.

I've always wondered how effective a T-Man would would be with most of the touch based tattoos activated in melee combat.

Also note once undead slayers get a few levels they don't need to touch the tattoos any more same with the sunaj. Also a lot of the touch stuff are things you can activate and then last for a bit so you can activate it going into melee range and then just brawl while there.

[VIsgar]

What I meant is having the following tattoos active.

1. Cracked Skull
2. Eye with dagger in it
3. Heart Wrapped in Thorns
4. Skull Coiled with Thorns
5. Hearth in Two Pieces

Land a melee attack then have them save 5 times or roll 1 time for all the saves.

6. Grappling Hook - Never misses so go ahead and reel them into melee range.

[Axelmania]

I have a question about page 170's Power Matrix (Energize Tattoo) as it seems VERY useful for sending animals/monsters on long-distance seek and destroy missions.

If you have activated this to double a duration, does it count as an active tattoo until that doubled duration expires, or is it just like an instant boost and it doesn't continue to count as active?

If it's no longer active... could you repeatedly use it to double the durations of multiple tats?

If not... can anyone see any problem with purchasing Power Matrix multiple times?

I believe there was a rule somewhere that you can't have 2 copies of the same tattoo so it might be prohibited but I never really understood that rule, is there a problem with having 2 Chimeras or two Flaming Swords?

3) The horse illustration on p149 isn't book legal. It's got four enhancements where the limit is three. (OK, I'm nit-picking.)

Maybe it's wearing a real saddle? Or real barding? Is there anything saying you can't put real armor you'd normally put on real horses onto magically created ones?

Looking at it, I want to say Fiery Streaks and Breathing Lightning are the only two we know for sure.

4) Getting a tattoo of a wasp finally makes a little sense, if you add a ranged attack to it. Although your now paying 22 PPE for a wasp that hits for 3D6 SDC.

Pre-DB15 couldn't you still have gotten some kinda 1 SDC per sting thing going on? Would be particularly good when armor isn't environmental and has holes for wasps to get into, and against SDC opponents.

5) Simple weapons are indestructible (p152), yet the Simple SDC Shield (same page) has 200 SDC and can be destroyed and needs twice as much PPE as a simple weapon.

I'd chuck that onto the "every dice RPG hates shields" pile.

Shields look amazing when you see them in simulated combat (Samurai Jack uses paired shields at least 3 times in pretty logical ways) but stat-wise shields are just detested by most game designers.

6) Heart within a Rift (Sustain) (p177). Not sure why this is a Dimension tattoo instead of Power. Unless the Voyagers are selfish and just don't want to share with Undead Slayers.

Gotta manage your niche.

[kaid]

I always find it odd how many limitations various game systems heap on shields when traditionally speaking even amongst civilizations that did not or climate wise could not use armor nearly all made use of shields of various sorts. You would not see that kind of wide acceptance of something if it was not seen as basically universally useful across various times and cultures.

[Mack]

On the shield, my guess that they needed to differentiate between the 4 PPE simple shield and the 15 PPE flaming shield.

I think I would make all simple weapons (the 2 PPE ones) destructible just like a normal SDC weapon. Then it's consistent between simple weapons & shields, and flaming weapons & shields.

[Shark_Force]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

even more funny, that isn't RAW, that's... i dunno... rules as assumed to exist? there is no rule that says shields count as cover. it's just something that you kinda have to decide they should do if you want them to do it. (personally, i use a different system, but mine doesn't even exist in the form of an interpretation of 2 rules interacting that never indicate they belong together).

[eliakon]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

even more funny, that isn't RAW, that's... i dunno... rules as assumed to exist? there is no rule that says shields count as cover. it's just something that you kinda have to decide they should do if you want them to do it. (personally, i use a different system, but mine doesn't even exist in the form of an interpretation of 2 rules interacting that never indicate they belong together).

I know.
It's pretty funny that the only really good use for shields in the system is that you have to use them not as shields... but as something else (cover/concealment).

[kaid]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

even more funny, that isn't RAW, that's... i dunno... rules as assumed to exist? there is no rule that says shields count as cover. it's just something that you kinda have to decide they should do if you want them to do it. (personally, i use a different system, but mine doesn't even exist in the form of an interpretation of 2 rules interacting that never indicate they belong together).

I know.
It's pretty funny that the only really good use for shields in the system is that you have to use them not as shields... but as something else (cover/concealment).

And if your GM does not let them be used as covers a shield isn't a ton better than an off hand weapon for blocking/parrying which is kinda pants on head.

[ShadowLogan]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

???
WP: Shield description (RUE pg327):
"...only really takes damage when used to block energy blasts or explosions, or is specifically targeting by an opponent with the intention of destroying or chopping through the shield."

Even the optional rule in the WP description only inflicts 10% damage to the shield on a successful parry attempt (effectively that makes a 50MDC shield equal to 500MDC for parrying purposes).

So unless you are parrying energy blasts (at -8) or explosions (would you rather take the damage off main body?) OR your opponent is specifically targeting your shield (a called shot), then you are not going to take full damage.

That isn't the only example I could site, by RAW the Kittani Rocket Shields (WB2, Class 1 in the Serpent Power Armor description, WB21 has both Class 1 and Class 2 on the Kittani power armor in the book) only take 1/2 damage on a successful parry. IINM though RUE is the most recent description.

[eliakon]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

???
WP: Shield description (RUE pg327):
"...only really takes damage when used to block energy blasts or explosions, or is specifically targeting by an opponent with the intention of destroying or chopping through the shield."

Even the optional rule in the WP description only inflicts 10% damage to the shield on a successful parry attempt (effectively that makes a 50MDC shield equal to 500MDC for parrying purposes).

So unless you are parrying energy blasts (at -8) or explosions (would you rather take the damage off main body?) OR your opponent is specifically targeting your shield (a called shot), then you are not going to take full damage.

That isn't the only example I could site, by RAW the Kittani Rocket Shields (WB2, Class 1 in the Serpent Power Armor description, WB21 has both Class 1 and Class 2 on the Kittani power armor in the book) only take 1/2 damage on a successful parry. IINM though RUE is the most recent description.

And yet weapons take no damage on successful parries.
And this is one of the rules that flip flops around a lot... and when the best version is "shields are easier to damage than weapons and thus provide less protection than weapons" something is pretty messed up

[ShadowLogan]

Oh I also forgot to note that the weirdness of indestructible simple weapons vs destructible shields seems to be a rifts theme. If you look at psi sword vs psi shield you see the same damn thing the sword is indestructible but the shield has finite MDC.

Or how a successful parry with a weapon does no damage to the weapon. But a successful parry with a shield does full damage to the shield.
RAW shields pretty much suck for anything other than cover/concealment.

???
WP: Shield description (RUE pg327):
"...only really takes damage when used to block energy blasts or explosions, or is specifically targeting by an opponent with the intention of destroying or chopping through the shield."

Even the optional rule in the WP description only inflicts 10% damage to the shield on a successful parry attempt (effectively that makes a 50MDC shield equal to 500MDC for parrying purposes).

So unless you are parrying energy blasts (at -8) or explosions (would you rather take the damage off main body?) OR your opponent is specifically targeting your shield (a called shot), then you are not going to take full damage.

That isn't the only example I could site, by RAW the Kittani Rocket Shields (WB2, Class 1 in the Serpent Power Armor description, WB21 has both Class 1 and Class 2 on the Kittani power armor in the book) only take 1/2 damage on a successful parry. IINM though RUE is the most recent description.

And yet weapons take no damage on successful parries.
And this is one of the rules that flip flops around a lot... and when the best version is "shields are easier to damage than weapons and thus provide less protection than weapons" something is pretty messed up

Shields though only take damage from certain types of attacks, more extensive than weapons, but by RAW they don't always take full damage. One could argue that Shields are weapons (can use them as a blunt weapon and some can be thrown weapons).

[Mack]

Another house-rule on weapon tattoos I thought of:
-- If a magic weapon has enhancements, all of which were acquired at the same time (counts as 1 tattoo) then all of it must be activated.
-- If a magic weapon has enhancements which were acquired individually (counts as multiple tattoos) then upon activation the T-man can choose to activate just the base weapon, or any combination of the base weapon plus enhancements.

Example: Flaming Knife with Electric Arcs and Wings
If each was acquired individually, then the T-Man can choose to activate:
-- Flaming Knife (10 PPE), or
-- Flaming Knife & Electric Arc (30 PPE), or
-- Flaming Knife & Wings (30 PPE), or
-- Flaming Knife & Electric Arc & Wings (50 PPE)

This give a little upside to modifying an existing tattoo instead just getting a new one with all the enhancements (which would always require the total PPE).

[Axelmania]

I remember a few tat questions from the past and I'm wondering if anyone knows if SOTA ended up answering them...

1) were any rules introduced that might slow the rate at which a friendly chaing-ku might bestow thousands of tiny tattoos upon a friendly party member? Maybe increasing the penalties people suffer upon receiving them, or like 10x the activation cost needed to imprint it?

2) was it clarified whether or not Simple Weapons created could be handed off to allies or to summoned animals (like chimps) to wield, or if only the creator could use them?

[kaid]

I remember a few tat questions from the past and I'm wondering if anyone knows if SOTA ended up answering them...

1) were any rules introduced that might slow the rate at which a friendly chaing-ku might bestow thousands of tiny tattoos upon a friendly party member? Maybe increasing the penalties people suffer upon receiving them, or like 10x the activation cost needed to imprint it?

2) was it clarified whether or not Simple Weapons created could be handed off to allies or to summoned animals (like chimps) to wield, or if only the creator could use them?

The rules to stop somebody from just raining tattoos has always existed. The magic tattoos are immensely painful and draining to get. You can only get so many in any time window or you will just spend your whole time recovering and not be able to do much.

You can give summoned wepaons simple and major to others. You can unsummon them at will. You can't summon multiple copies of the same weapon at once.

[Curbludgeon]

The wording on pg148 is unfortunate; if the modification of animal/monster tattoos is "just like weapon tattoos", then the Enhancements Over Time subheading would equally apply. If one were to interpret an animal with a saddle tattooed at the same time as 1 tattoo, the degree to which that would be a house-rule would depend upon if the reader felt the author made an error of commission, or of omission.

For my money, not only would I go with the latter, I'd consider a house rule that animal/monster enhancements added separate from an animal/monster can apply to any a/m the character possesses. A T-Monster Man should be able to ride most things they activate.

Tangential question: is there any example of a True Atlantean modifying the weapon in the Marks of Heritage?

[Mack]

Tangential question: is there any example of a True Atlantean modifying the weapon in the Marks of Heritage?

I don't think so, mainly because I don't know of any NPCs written after this book was published.

[Curbludgeon]

Well, WB2 describes enhancements as features, of which a given weapon could have more than one. I suppose then it would depend upon if convention before SotA was that whatever combination weapon would have counted as one tattoo when created.

[RockJock]

I'm hoping this does not come across as too munchie, but I tend to give Tattoo magic the benefit of the doubt flexibility wise.

I don't see having an add on, say a saddle being usable by anything in the class being a bad thing. If I want my griffin tattoo to be an attack animal today then I activate it as just a griffin, but if i want to ride the griffin I can activate the grif, then activate the saddle (counting as two activations). The same saddle can be used with say a dinosaur tat. I might also have a horse tattoo with another saddle built in to start, because I am not going to activate a horse without a saddle(only one activation for the horse with saddle, but have to activate both). I take a similar approach to weapons and enhancements.

This approach does give some advantages to tattoo magic, but let's face it, T-Men are tortured to get their abilities, and are limited compared to spell casters as to what powers and abilities they can get. A T-Man needs to sacrifice a great deal(to get the four tats) to get a horse with a saddle, a saddle, a griffin, and a dinosaur tattoo, so the bit of flexibility is more than made up for.


I need to reread Secrets. I know you can't have more then one exact tattoo, but can you have a griffin, a griffin with a saddle, and a fire breathing griffin as three separate tats?

[Mack]

I need to reread Secrets. I know you can't have more then one exact tattoo, but can you have a griffin, a griffin with a saddle, and a fire breathing griffin as three separate tats?

As written, no. The base tattoo (griffin) can't be repeated.

[Axelmania]

The rules to stop somebody from just raining tattoos has always existed. The magic tattoos are immensely painful and draining to get. You can only get so many in any time window or you will just spend your whole time recovering and not be able to do much.

The "Receiving Magic Tattoos" penalties on Atlantis 84 aren't very extreme for simple weapons and animals. The damage would be easily healed with the right spell/psi and the -1 to attack/s/pd/ only lasts 1-4 days, meaning even if it was always 4 and you were alright with year-round penalties you could get 91 per year.

The major tattoos are more serious, of course, but if you're going for the "I get a PPE and MDC bonus for each tattoo, no matter which type" angle, the lessers would be easier.

Children suffer half penalties so on someone 12 and under you would only accrue -1 per PAIR of simple tats they get.

You can give summoned wepaons simple and major to others. You can unsummon them at will. You can't summon multiple copies of the same weapon at once.

I always figured you could since it wasn't prohibited, but would still like to know of any explicit examples of it being done.

Even before SOTA introduced enhancements the "give my chimp a flaming crossbow" strategy should've been an attractive strategy but no NPCs seem to do it.

As written, no. The base tattoo (griffin) can't be repeated.

Rereading "No identical tattoos on the same person" on pg 85 of WB2, it makes me wonder just how "identical" something is.

We're told "there cannot be":

two tattoos of crossed swords
two bears
two identical powers

If we look at NPC examples though... on WB3p110 Galahad has a "Short sword" and a "Broadsword" and a "Flaming broadsword" while on 108 Percy has a simple silver knife / broadsword and a flaming knife (not explicitly silver... does that mean flaming weapons can't be silver too?) and broadsword crossed, so it seems there' s flexibility in respect to weapons so long as they are slightly different (different damage, even the same WP and same category like broad/short, or simple vs. flaming version of same weapon) which may not exist with animals/monsters.

"polar bear" and "black bear" for example, seem about as different as broadsword v. short sword, so how different must animals be? Mountain Lion v. Lion for example?

I'm trying to remember if there were monsters who are radically different based on gender and if that might mean you could choose both a male and female version due to the different stats.

[RockJock]

I thought you could always have two bears, one polar bear and one black bear for example, bot not two black bears.

My question was more is a black bear and a black bear with a saddle the same thing?

[Axelmania]

Another interesting question would be if you could do a poodle and a wolf or if the'yre too similar.

[kaid]

The wording on pg148 is unfortunate; if the modification of animal/monster tattoos is "just like weapon tattoos", then the Enhancements Over Time subheading would equally apply. If one were to interpret an animal with a saddle tattooed at the same time as 1 tattoo, the degree to which that would be a house-rule would depend upon if the reader felt the author made an error of commission, or of omission.

For my money, not only would I go with the latter, I'd consider a house rule that animal/monster enhancements added separate from an animal/monster can apply to any a/m the character possesses. A T-Monster Man should be able to ride most things they activate.

Tangential question: is there any example of a True Atlantean modifying the weapon in the Marks of Heritage?

I don't believe we have seen that and given how enhancements work on weapon generally you want it to have all the enhancements you want on it done at the time of its creation. That way it is a single tattoo activation cost instead of one for each enhancement.

Also its useful to have just a basic MDC weapon that is super cheap to use. Most are probably going to have one massively tricked out weapon tattoo covered in flames dripping blood with wings that breaths fire but thats expensive as hell to summon and sometimes you don't have the PPE for that or want to save for using other tattoos so for that just having a basic tool to get the job done is always useful.

Now in theory there is nothing stopping you from adding onto your heritage weapon as you level but when done after the fact every time you summon it its costing you 1+ however many enhancements you have on it for tattoo activations and you can only have 6 active at a time.

[kaid]

I'm hoping this does not come across as too munchie, but I tend to give Tattoo magic the benefit of the doubt flexibility wise.

I don't see having an add on, say a saddle being usable by anything in the class being a bad thing. If I want my griffin tattoo to be an attack animal today then I activate it as just a griffin, but if i want to ride the griffin I can activate the grif, then activate the saddle (counting as two activations). The same saddle can be used with say a dinosaur tat. I might also have a horse tattoo with another saddle built in to start, because I am not going to activate a horse without a saddle(only one activation for the horse with saddle, but have to activate both). I take a similar approach to weapons and enhancements.

This approach does give some advantages to tattoo magic, but let's face it, T-Men are tortured to get their abilities, and are limited compared to spell casters as to what powers and abilities they can get. A T-Man needs to sacrifice a great deal(to get the four tats) to get a horse with a saddle, a saddle, a griffin, and a dinosaur tattoo, so the bit of flexibility is more than made up for.


I need to reread Secrets. I know you can't have more then one exact tattoo, but can you have a griffin, a griffin with a saddle, and a fire breathing griffin as three separate tats?

Each tattoo has to be unique so one sword one axe one dagger one squirrel one horse one griffon. Now you could have a griffin a pegasus with a with a saddle and manticore that breaths fire but you can't have three different griffon tattoos.

[kaid]

To expand upon the unique animals I think you could have different species of bears as they have their own specific stats so I think that would fly. For griffons I guess if there were different sub species of them you could get around the limitation that way.

Also it seems like the "unique" identifier triggers on the base tattoo that is being looked at. So you can have only one long sword tattoo but you could have a long sword tattoo/ a katana tattoo/a short sword tattoo because statistic wise they are different.

[RockJock]

I always thought you could have a longsword with flames, one with blood, one with a serpent, all are "different".

[Mack]

I always thought you could have a longsword with flames, one with blood, one with a serpent, all are "different".

Looking back at Atlantis p85, I've never read it that way but I can see where someone else might.

However, this passage is from Secrets of the Atlanteans, p143:

Each magic tattoo on the body must be different - no duplicates, thus it is impossible to create two Gryphons or two magic axes, etc. But a Gryphon and a tiger is no problem, or a battle axe (ordinary axe) and a flaming axe (magic and suitable for battling the supernatural), or a large sword and a short sword, or two knives but with different blades or handles.

In the end, I don't think it's a big deal. If a character wants to invest in three or four different flaming Katana sword tattoos (a basic MDC, a Dripping Blood MDC, a Coiled Serpent, a Smashing Baal-rog...) I don't see it as game breaking. If anything, the character is pigeon-holing himself into a narrow style instead of investing in other abilities.

[kaid]

I agree in the end for weapons especially having different tattoos of the same thing probably is not in any way a game breaker given the limited amount of tattoos even a tattoo warrior can have. And honestly for megaversal travelers you may have a tattoo of a wolf and another of some alien being from another dimension that basically looks exactly like a wolf and I am not sure how much it matters. I don't think I would ever bother being super strict about that limitation because it would be pretty easy to RP around it. Like no this totally is not a second griffon it is a rare amaxian lion eagle you can tell by the different feather colors and the third eye.

[Axelmania]

I always thought you could have a longsword with flames, one with blood, one with a serpent, all are "different".

Looking back at Atlantis p85, I've never read it that way but I can see where someone else might.

However, this passage is from Secrets of the Atlanteans, p143:

Each magic tattoo on the body must be different - no duplicates, thus it is impossible to create two Gryphons or two magic axes, etc. But a Gryphon and a tiger is no problem, or a battle axe (ordinary axe) and a flaming axe (magic and suitable for battling the supernatural), or a large sword and a short sword, or two knives but with different blades or handles.

In the end, I don't think it's a big deal. If a character wants to invest in three or four different flaming Katana sword tattoos (a basic MDC, a Dripping Blood MDC, a Coiled Serpent, a Smashing Baal-rog...) I don't see it as game breaking. If anything, the character is pigeon-holing himself into a narrow style instead of investing in other abilities.

I used to think maybe we could combine dripping blood + flaming (even though the cost was never clear) but SOTA said you can only use dripping blood on the SDC ones

"different blades or handles" sure is interesting though... it doesn't say how different, so could you have 2 othewise identical knives but one lacks a pommel even though (aside from the capability to end it rightly) pommels have no statistical effect in Palladium, you could summon both?

Compared to that, summoning 2 different kinds of bears seems much more distinct, even though we were told maximum 1 bear.

[Curbludgeon]

Like I asked in the last tattoo thread, what are some of the min/max animal tattoo choices? There has to be something good out of Palladium Fantasy of which I'm simply unaware. I reckon Whisker Coyotes and Picasso Magic Fish are solid choices, but would love to hear of some gargantuan sdc workhorse.

[Axelmania]

Psyscape's "Land Ray" is an SDC creature

[kaid]

Like I asked in the last tattoo thread, what are some of the min/max animal tattoo choices? There has to be something good out of Palladium Fantasy of which I'm simply unaware. I reckon Whisker Coyotes and Picasso Magic Fish are solid choices, but would love to hear of some gargantuan sdc workhorse.

Hell an elephant is an excellent SDC animal choice. Even to this day in india people use trained elephants basically like we use front end loaders. Having that level of power that you don't have to feed that would be pretty low PPE cost is hella handy. People always look at me funny with an elephant tattoo on my atlantean technowizard but having a critter than can help lift ammo containers up to a robot vehicle and let you stand on their back steadily so you can work on tall vehicles is really damn nice. Also nice for setting up a camp they can rip out small/midsized trees and drag them wherever you want easily.

[Mack]

I used to think maybe we could combine dripping blood + flaming (even though the cost was never clear) but SOTA said you can only use dripping blood on the SDC ones

Page 154 says otherwise.

[RockJock]

It is the normal PB issue of pick and choose what works on your table.

[Mack]

It is the normal PB issue of pick and choose what works on your table.

In this case it's black and white. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

[kaid]

They basically in SoTA made it a specific combo package. You can't get it as an enhancement but you can get the combo package that is flaming and dripping with blood. I think it was a requested enough change because a lot of the archaic weapons damage is not that great so spending a bit more to make your tattoo do double base damage is both worth the price and in general not that OP. Its going to top out at basically 6d6 and for most things you are looking at 4 or 5 d6 damage which is in the range of some of the other attack power tattoos.

[kaid]

The rules to stop somebody from just raining tattoos has always existed. The magic tattoos are immensely painful and draining to get. You can only get so many in any time window or you will just spend your whole time recovering and not be able to do much.

The "Receiving Magic Tattoos" penalties on Atlantis 84 aren't very extreme for simple weapons and animals. The damage would be easily healed with the right spell/psi and the -1 to attack/s/pd/ only lasts 1-4 days, meaning even if it was always 4 and you were alright with year-round penalties you could get 91 per year.

The major tattoos are more serious, of course, but if you're going for the "I get a PPE and MDC bonus for each tattoo, no matter which type" angle, the lessers would be easier.

Children suffer half penalties so on someone 12 and under you would only accrue -1 per PAIR of simple tats they get.

You can give summoned wepaons simple and major to others. You can unsummon them at will. You can't summon multiple copies of the same weapon at once.

I always figured you could since it wasn't prohibited, but would still like to know of any explicit examples of it being done.

Even before SOTA introduced enhancements the "give my chimp a flaming crossbow" strategy should've been an attractive strategy but no NPCs seem to do it.

As written, no. The base tattoo (griffin) can't be repeated.

Rereading "No identical tattoos on the same person" on pg 85 of WB2, it makes me wonder just how "identical" something is.

We're told "there cannot be":

two tattoos of crossed swords
two bears
two identical powers

If we look at NPC examples though... on WB3p110 Galahad has a "Short sword" and a "Broadsword" and a "Flaming broadsword" while on 108 Percy has a simple silver knife / broadsword and a flaming knife (not explicitly silver... does that mean flaming weapons can't be silver too?) and broadsword crossed, so it seems there' s flexibility in respect to weapons so long as they are slightly different (different damage, even the same WP and same category like broad/short, or simple vs. flaming version of same weapon) which may not exist with animals/monsters.

"polar bear" and "black bear" for example, seem about as different as broadsword v. short sword, so how different must animals be? Mountain Lion v. Lion for example?

I'm trying to remember if there were monsters who are radically different based on gender and if that might mean you could choose both a male and female version due to the different stats.

In Secrets of the atlanteans undead slayers the most tattoo focused OCC can only get 2 tattoos per level and a minimum of 6 months between pairs of tattoos. Having a Chaing ku in your party basically makes sure you can get your tattoos as fast as you can get them but there are still some hard limitations on how often you can get them. Given the insanity effects on T men it is pretty clear why this is the case.


Also the damage inflicted cannot be healed magically. It has to be natural recovery or it interferes with the tattoo magic.

[RockJock]

Mack, I don't see things as black and white as you do. PB doesn't cover things like defining species very well. It says you cannot have two bears. For me that means you cannot have two black bears, or two grizzlies. A polar and a black bear are not the same animal. What about a MDC bear(monster) and a SDC one (animal)? Can you have a rock python and a rattle snake? what about a Tiger Claw Raptor and a Titan Raptor? What defines a "species"?

I can have arrows with wings and use it to buff power arrows, so why can't I have a saddle as a separate to buff animals/monsters?

We are not going to find 100% consensus on this, it isn't that black and white. The nuances of how we all play these things changes our games from table to table. I'm not talking house rules so much as I'm talking rules that are loose/unclear, or contradict themselves from book to book. That is the good and bad of PB. You can do whatever you want, or what works for your group, but the GM is probably going to have to make a judgement call for their game.

[Mack]

RockJock, we've miscommunicated. My black and white comment was specifically about Axelmania's claim that "Dripping" couldn't be added to a Flaming weapon. It wasn't intended for anything beyond that.

[Mack]

They basically in SoTA made it a specific combo package. You can't get it as an enhancement but you can get the combo package that is flaming and dripping with blood. I think it was a requested enough change because a lot of the archaic weapons damage is not that great so spending a bit more to make your tattoo do double base damage is both worth the price and in general not that OP. Its going to top out at basically 6d6 and for most things you are looking at 4 or 5 d6 damage which is in the range of some of the other attack power tattoos.

That's one thing I like about the new tattoos, that you can add several enhancements to a single weapon to make it more powerful, if you're willing to spend the PPE for the combo.

One could do:
-- Battle Axe, Flaming & Dripping, 6D6 MD for 25 PPE
-- plus Electric Arcs, +2D6 MD and 20 PPE
-- plus Black Thorns, +6D6 MD possible (there are conditions), 25 PPE

That's 8D6 +6D6 (possible) for 70 PPE. Average damage would be 49 MD, which ain't shabby for a melee weapon. But that cost of 70 PPE makes a character think for second prior to activating it--which is cool. I like those kind of tradeoffs.

[Axelmania]

I used to think maybe we could combine dripping blood + flaming (even though the cost was never clear) but SOTA said you can only use dripping blood on the SDC ones

Page 154 says otherwise.

Ugh. I hadn't noticed that, was checking out the Enhancement section and noticed all that "SDC only" stuff on 155, didn't notice the changed it to be one of the basic types. That seems new, and I like it.

I guess there's no way to do a Blood/Snake combo for x6 against dragons though?

The stuff about flaming weapons only doing SDC damage to SDC targets also appears to be a change, I don't remember that in WB2...

I guess since you can't giblet squishies for 10 PPE anymore the next best thing would be to spend 20 on the Bleeding Heart Power Punch?

*reads Demon Slayer*
+8 damage to all types of demons, including Deevils

In Secrets of the atlanteans undead slayers the most tattoo focused OCC can only get 2 tattoos per level and a minimum of 6 months between pairs of tattoos. Having a Chaing ku in your party basically makes sure you can get your tattoos as fast as you can get them but there are still some hard limitations on how often you can get them. Given the insanity effects on T men it is pretty clear why this is the case.

58 "The most tattoos any T-Man can get at any time is two. There must be at least six months between the acqui­sition of another pair of tattoos."
62 "The most tattoos any T-Man, even a Monster Hunter, can get at any time is two. There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos."
73 "The most tattoos any Atlantean can get at any time is two, and there must be six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos."
83 "The number of Power Tattoos that the Assassin can get at any one time is one and there must be at least six months"

83 is just for an OCC, 73 is just for a race, so the most powerful are the "any T-Man" statements on 58/62, even if that's arguably somewhat hidden under OCC descriptions.

This is a carryover I forgot about which was present in WB2, albeit on page 94 under the Tattooed Man OCC:
The numbers of tattoos any T-man, even a Maxi-man, can get at any one time is two (2). There must be at least six months between the acquisition of another pair of tattoos.

Strangely they don't reprint that on 95 for the Monster Men OCC but it does appear on 97 for the Maxi-Man OCC and 99 for the Undead Slayer OCC.

Females get more MDC from tats than males... if not for the explicit notation of female members of these OCCs I would speculate as to a hidden class of T-Women this wouldn't apply to.

It's pretty confusing with "T-Man" referring to both an OCC and a class of OCCs, kinda like Deevils being a specific "Lesser Deevil" as well as referring to Dyvalians in general. Kind of wish we could tweak those names a bit to be slightly different somehow so it's clear when statements refer to class or category.

In this case I think it's category, but I would like to know what is excluded...

SOTA142's "Individuals with six or fewer magic tattoos are not categorized as Tattooed Men." sounds like it means the "maximum 2 per session" + 6 months waiting period wouldn't apply and you could jam 6 on an untatted person all at once?

Perhaps that's one of the upsides to having to pay double the PPE requirements?

Also the damage inflicted cannot be healed magically. It has to be natural recovery or it interferes with the tattoo magic.

174 mentions this for Dimension Tattoos:
because the tattoo and accompanying pain and damage is magical in nature, trying to stop the pain or shorten its duration with healing magic or by other means risks undoing the magic ritual to create the tattoo, and therefore rendering the tattoo pow­erless

It seems an odd place to introduce a rule that applies to ALL tattoos rather than just this new type, so I figure it's just for DTs since they're more intense.

[eliakon]

I used to think maybe we could combine dripping blood + flaming (even though the cost was never clear) but SOTA said you can only use dripping blood on the SDC ones

Page 154 says otherwise.

<snip>
*reads Demon Slayer*
+8 damage to all types of demons, including Deevils

Yeah. Deevils are explicitly a kind of Demon ("Deevils, Another Horde of Demons") and have been for a long time.
Which is why anti-demon measures work on them... because canonically they are demons.

[kaid]

They basically in SoTA made it a specific combo package. You can't get it as an enhancement but you can get the combo package that is flaming and dripping with blood. I think it was a requested enough change because a lot of the archaic weapons damage is not that great so spending a bit more to make your tattoo do double base damage is both worth the price and in general not that OP. Its going to top out at basically 6d6 and for most things you are looking at 4 or 5 d6 damage which is in the range of some of the other attack power tattoos.

That's one thing I like about the new tattoos, that you can add several enhancements to a single weapon to make it more powerful, if you're willing to spend the PPE for the combo.

One could do:
-- Battle Axe, Flaming & Dripping, 6D6 MD for 25 PPE
-- plus Electric Arcs, +2D6 MD and 20 PPE
-- plus Black Thorns, +6D6 MD possible (there are conditions), 25 PPE

That's 8D6 +6D6 (possible) for 70 PPE. Average damage would be 49 MD, which ain't shabby for a melee weapon. But that cost of 70 PPE makes a character think for second prior to activating it--which is cool. I like those kind of tradeoffs.

Yup I like it too. Since most of the tatoo classes get a few weapon powers + the default heritage tattoo it makes a lot of sense to get one of the of fear and flame combo tattoos where its expensive as hell to use it but the weapon tattoos usually last a long time for a combat magical power and basically even at first level should last a full combat. Sometimes you don't need maximum effort damage so you use your normal more inexpensive to summon weapon but sometimes you are fighting something REALLY nasty and you just need to kill it NOW.

Also oddly enough it generally makes the most sense if you are going to get a tattoo like that get it right away all at one time. You can add on to things as you level but doing it all at once makes it a single tattoo activation instead of 3 for the above combo. Stuff like that is also great for defending a pyramid areas where you KNOW you will have the PPE to power it up for as long as necessary.