Radar/LRMs

[Meneliki]

Hi,

I'm not super clear on how radar works in Rifts.

What kinds of things are picked up on radar and what is not? Also, if a PC has enemies on his radar.... logically they can see him too right? So a party with a power armor can never sneak up on an enemy encampment because radar? (sorry. They saw you coming 100km out)

Also, missiles. I hate to crap all over missile rules. but... with long range missiles. some of the missiles have ranges of hundreds of kilometers. So that's an attack *out of combat*... i just don't know how to work that as a GM. maybe im making something out of nothing. Maybe im not meant to think about it. just do it. free attack. just seems wierd.

anyway. can anyone shed some light on radar/LRM mechanics? thanks

[HWalsh]

Hi,

I'm not super clear on how radar works in Rifts.

What kinds of things are picked up on radar and what is not? Also, if a PC has enemies on his radar.... logically they can see him too right? So a party with a power armor can never sneak up on an enemy encampment because radar? (sorry. They saw you coming 100km out)

Also, missiles. I hate to crap all over missile rules. but... with long range missiles. some of the missiles have ranges of hundreds of kilometers. So that's an attack *out of combat*... i just don't know how to work that as a GM. maybe im making something out of nothing. Maybe im not meant to think about it. just do it. free attack. just seems wierd.

anyway. can anyone shed some light on radar/LRM mechanics? thanks

Radar:
The person using the radar makes a "Sensory Equipment" check (RUE pg 305) if they succeed they "spot" the target (some stealth systems and other abilities penalize this roll) but also, remember how radar works.

Radar is good vs fast moving air-based targets. A power armor, on the ground, moving slowly might be Invisible to radar.

-----

LRMs:
LRMs are resolved like any other attack.

See "Missile Combat" RUE pg 362.

You attack, they get the chance to defend. The players may not be capable of retaliating but the second you launch you're in combat.

[HWalsh]

To add...

LRMs actually are terrible. They are easily shot down and usually aren't effective. They are limited in number of shots too. They are best used for large vulnerable targets. It is a total waste of ammo to shoot at a PA with LRMs.

Additional information on Radar:
Radar works by sending out a wave form in a radius and recording how much of it is reflected back. This makes grinding ground targets smaller than a tank virtually impossible without clear LOE. They are too small, and there is so much interference, that radars calibrated to try to do that would have incalculable difficulty detecting legitimate targets from false positives.

[taalismn]

Hi,

I'm not super clear on how radar works in Rifts.

What kinds of things are picked up on radar and what is not? Also, if a PC has enemies on his radar.... logically they can see him too right? So a party with a power armor can never sneak up on an enemy encampment because radar? (sorry. They saw you coming 100km out)

Depends...does your enemy have radar detection? If you're using active radar(and not simply monitoring for somebody else's radar radiation), and they got detection sensors, there's a good chance they can pick up your radar emissions, especially if you're pounding them with a targeting system lock-on.

If they're flying blind, with no EW sensors whatsoever, then, yeah, they're not going to know you've spotted them way off.

In general, radar systems can be tuned to pick up on just about any materials in the air, from 747s to raindrops. The finer the resolution, however, the longer its going to take you to sort out the important stuff on your display screen....like picking out that incoming Air Castle Bomber behind the thunderstorm cell sweeping your way, or distinguishing between a flock of birds and a marauding party of gargoyles winging your way.
It's also a choice of risk. If you've got active radar systems going all the time, then a tech-savvy opponent like the Coalition can pick out your presence and maybe throw a weapon like a Homing Anti-Radiation Missile at you that flies down your radar beam and nails you. On the other hand, lying silent, you can't see what's coming at you, so you don't know if there's a Kittani flying power armor squad buzzing around looking for targets unless you're passively looking for active radar sources and they're emitting.

[Axelmania]

Does anyone remember if there was passive radar vs active radar? I'm trying to remember from shows like Last Ship (or maybe Star Trek) where they talk about how active sensors can give away their location so they would rely on passive when an non-located enemy might fire on them first.

[glitterboy2098]

To add...

LRMs actually are terrible. They are easily shot down and usually aren't effective. They are limited in number of shots too. They are best used for large vulnerable targets. It is a total waste of ammo to shoot at a PA with LRMs.

first time i've seen something with a target movement mod of -22 to -24 called "easy to shoot down"

[taalismn]

Does anyone remember if there was passive radar vs active radar? I'm trying to remember from shows like Last Ship (or maybe Star Trek) where they talk about how active sensors can give away their location so they would rely on passive when an non-located enemy might fire on them first.

In Palladium? No.

Probably the best illustration of passive vs active was Vietnam and the 'Wild Weasels' which would go out baiting Soviet-made SAM launchers to fire on them. Besides the targeting radar, some of the missiles used beam riders that would follow a radar beam locked on the target.
The experience taught the US to develop HARMs. Then SAM sites learned that if they thought Wild Weasel aircraft were in the area or they spotted incoming missiles, they'd quickly shut off their radar and cause the missiles to lose lock. The next step in the arms race became missiles with sustained burn that would, if they lost beam lock, circle back around and loiter for several seconds in hopes the site would turn back on. A British system of missiles even cuts the rocket thrust off and jettisons part of the propellent stage, then deploys a drogue chute to slow the missile down. If it senses SAM radars, it lights off the rest of its propulsion and continues the attack.

[Axelmania]

the best illustration of passive vs active was Vietnam and the 'Wild Weasels' which would go out baiting Soviet-made SAM launchers to fire on them.

This is reminding me of the Wild Weasel SAMAS in New West.

[taalismn]

the best illustration of passive vs active was Vietnam and the 'Wild Weasels' which would go out baiting Soviet-made SAM launchers to fire on them.

This is reminding me of the Wild Weasel SAMAS in New West.

Yep, that's most likely where the name comes from. The Wild Weasels were jamming and decoy units.

[HWalsh]

To add...

LRMs actually are terrible. They are easily shot down and usually aren't effective. They are limited in number of shots too. They are best used for large vulnerable targets. It is a total waste of ammo to shoot at a PA with LRMs.

first time i've seen something with a target movement mod of -22 to -24 called "easy to shoot down"

4 mini-missiles.
1 proximity detonated mini missile.

These are so inexpensive by comparison.

4 HE mini-missiles cost 4800 credits.
1 HE mini-missile costs 1200 credits.
1 HE LRM costs 15000 credits.

The damage (avg) of 1 proximity mini-missile is 8 MDC (17 MDC but halved) only 2 lower than is needed to pop *an entire volley* of LRMs.

4 mini-missiles will destroy any single missile and is very likely to destroy the whole volley.

[glitterboy2098]

you still have to hit it first. which is my point. at the speeds LRM's travel, you are looking at a negative 18 to 24 to hit them, depending on the type of missile. so basically you'd need either a hell of a lot of stacked bonuses or a natural twenty to even hit them. whether you can destroy one and trigger mass immolation is very much a secondary issue compared to hitting them in the first place

[HWalsh]

you still have to hit it first. which is my point. at the speeds LRM's travel, you are looking at a negative 18 to 24 to hit them, depending on the type of missile. so basically you'd need either a hell of a lot of stacked bonuses or a natural twenty to even hit them. whether you can destroy one and trigger mass immolation is very much a secondary issue compared to hitting them in the first place

Negative.

Hitting with missiles have special rules.

RUE pg 364

You only need a 5 or more to hit with a missile. They don't follow the standard ranged to-strike rules.

[glitterboy2098]

actually they do, they just don't get any extra bonuses beyond their guidance packages and they have a lower target number to hit. that's what the "as usual" bit means. they follow the same rules as guns and swords, just with a different target number. which means the penalties from target speed still apply. and with them going multi-mach, that makes them really hard to hit.

[kaid]

the best illustration of passive vs active was Vietnam and the 'Wild Weasels' which would go out baiting Soviet-made SAM launchers to fire on them.

This is reminding me of the Wild Weasel SAMAS in New West.

The new west wild weasle is one of the few really dedicated ECM platforms I have seen in rifts. There are a few others with some enhanced ECM abilities but not very common. Also I don't recall any antiradiation missile options which is what the wild weasles used. Missiles that basically use enemy radar as their guidance system. Once they sense an active radar they home in on it.


I think given the limited radar ranges in rifts most LRM are probably either going after BIG targets or are getting called in and local fire support/direction by local units supplying radarlock near the target.

[kaid]

you still have to hit it first. which is my point. at the speeds LRM's travel, you are looking at a negative 18 to 24 to hit them, depending on the type of missile. so basically you'd need either a hell of a lot of stacked bonuses or a natural twenty to even hit them. whether you can destroy one and trigger mass immolation is very much a secondary issue compared to hitting them in the first place

Also if I remember correctly the LRM have a reasonable amount of MDC as well so glancing hits frag rounds may not do enough to actually even take one out in the first place and at the speeds they are going you probably don't get a second shot between when they come into range and when they strike the target.

[kaid]

actually they do, they just don't get any extra bonuses beyond their guidance packages and they have a lower target number to hit. that's what the "as usual" bit means. they follow the same rules as guns and swords, just with a different target number. which means the penalties from target speed still apply. and with them going multi-mach, that makes them really hard to hit.

Yes pretty much this. That number just sets their basic number to hit before modifiers are applied. At the speed LRM are coming in the chance of hitting them is pretty much a natural 20.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hi,

I'm not super clear on how radar works in Rifts.

What kinds of things are picked up on radar and what is not? Also, if a PC has enemies on his radar.... logically they can see him too right? So a party with a power armor can never sneak up on an enemy encampment because radar? (sorry. They saw you coming 100km out)

Also, missiles. I hate to crap all over missile rules. but... with long range missiles. some of the missiles have ranges of hundreds of kilometers. So that's an attack *out of combat*... i just don't know how to work that as a GM. maybe im making something out of nothing. Maybe im not meant to think about it. just do it. free attack. just seems wierd.

anyway. can anyone shed some light on radar/LRM mechanics? thanks

Radar:
The person using the radar makes a "Sensory Equipment" check (RUE pg 305) if they succeed they "spot" the target (some stealth systems and other abilities penalize this roll) but also, remember how radar works.

Radar is good vs fast moving air-based targets. A power armor, on the ground, moving slowly might be Invisible to radar.

-----

LRMs:
LRMs are resolved like any other attack.

See "Missile Combat" RUE pg 362.

You attack, they get the chance to defend. The players may not be capable of retaliating but the second you launch you're in combat.

Are you quoting from the books? Cuz'
Radar... depends on what kind of radar. There is radar that produces an actual image. Used at airports to monitor ground traffic. Super short range.
Most radar cant idententify crap because the return is just a blob. The reason ATC knows what the stuff is, is because the aircrafts transponder tells them. Data includes call sign, flight designator and altitude.

[eliakon]

I would like to also point out that unless you know the LRMs are coming (aka your sensor rolls are successful) you will not get your one chance to fire your defensive shot in the first place.
LRMs are pretty much the definition of "Surprise Attack" and as such RAW the target gets no defense at all. Including trying to roll a n20 with a volley of counter missiles of their own.

So to reiterate
1) You have to be able to detect the LRMs (your radar must not be at capacity...many can only track 96 objects or less after all.)
2) You have to detect the LRMs before they hit you. (make that sensor roll so as to negate the surprise)
3) In time to do something (if your Radar doesn't have enough range to allow you to respond fast enough then the Missile will hit before you can do anything)
4) You have to then engage them. (have an action and weapon available right then)
5) You have to roll a n20 to hit them. (with their speed at best your 'roll a 5' becomes roll a 23 on a d20 and that is for the slow ones! And since it is ludicrously hard to get strike bonuses for missiles your not really going to offset that much, if at all)
6) You have to do enough damage to destroy one or more of them with your one hit. (not as easy at it seems, LRMs have 20+ MDC)
7) You have to pray that you can trigger a fratricide... (there is only a 40% chance of this)

That is a 2% success rate if everything else goes perfectly (your radar is not saturated, you have the range, make the sensor roll, have the ability to respond fast enough, and have a weapon to respond with and your weapon does enough damage if you hit with it!)

That doesn't sound like a waste to me. That sounds like "barring a miracle your target is going to get smoked"

[kaid]

Also I think some people are picturing LRMs coming from well above the horizon flying at pretty high altitude but they could just as easily be flying in nape of the earth like modern cruise missiles in which case even picking them up on radar would be challenging as they would be going very fast and low until they reach terminal attack.

[Meneliki]

I would like to also point out that unless you know the LRMs are coming (aka your sensor rolls are successful) you will not get your one chance to fire your defensive shot in the first place.
LRMs are pretty much the definition of "Surprise Attack" and as such RAW the target gets no defense at all.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

Also, someone mentioned "you make a sensory equipment" check to detect incoming missiles/other vehicles etc. Bear with me a sec, but this makes zero sense to me - for 2 reasons.

1) Radars are meant to actively alert the pilot to contacts - having the sensory skill, to me, simply says the character understands what the radar is trying to say. Having the pilot make a skill check is the opposite - that's the pilot actively querying the radar just to see if there's any contacts now. "No? Howabout now? No... k..... now?" If the radar pops up a little blip, then there's a blip. I fail to see the logic in a skill check here. If it has to do with whether the pilot understands the blip and what it means, that's seems pretty goofy that someone with robot/PA training and the sensory skill wouldn't immediately understand the data.

2) If a contact comes in range of the player's radar (who otherwise can't see the contact) and I say, "Make a sensory equipment check!" I've essentially just told the player there's a contact on his radar - again, making the skill check redundant. It's similar to saying, "Ok guys, make a perception check!" in that I've now just told the players that there is something hidden there to be perceived, which will inherently change their thought process/behavior (their characters would have no idea so why should they?)

I'm not sure if I'm being sufficiently clear here - and I'm certainly not trying to be confrontational. I appreciate all the replies and the help! I just really don't understand the logic/workings of this. Thanks again!

[glitterboy2098]

read sensory instruments would be used to interpret the data the radar is displaying.. letting you determine what the blip will do next and what it represents. the blip should be automatic, but without the skill it is just a moving dot on a screen with some abbreviated codes next to it.
with the skill you'd be able to not only read those codes giving you "the system ID's it as a flying titan, at 3000ft and coming in at 250mph." but also be able to determine if it is just one, or if there are two or more that are flying close enough together to show up as single return. plus things like be able to tell the difference between one loaded with SRm's and with regular missiles based on how the blip is moving and changes strength. it would also let you hazard a guess as to what something is when the system can't automatically ID it. such as in the case of an enemy you have encountered before but the system doesn't have in its pre-loaded database for IDing targets.

[eliakon]

I would like to also point out that unless you know the LRMs are coming (aka your sensor rolls are successful) you will not get your one chance to fire your defensive shot in the first place.
LRMs are pretty much the definition of "Surprise Attack" and as such RAW the target gets no defense at all.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

Also, someone mentioned "you make a sensory equipment" check to detect incoming missiles/other vehicles etc. Bear with me a sec, but this makes zero sense to me - for 2 reasons.

1) Radars are meant to actively alert the pilot to contacts - having the sensory skill, to me, simply says the character understands what the radar is trying to say. Having the pilot make a skill check is the opposite - that's the pilot actively querying the radar just to see if there's any contacts now. "No? Howabout now? No... k..... now?" If the radar pops up a little blip, then there's a blip. I fail to see the logic in a skill check here. If it has to do with whether the pilot understands the blip and what it means, that's seems pretty goofy that someone with robot/PA training and the sensory skill wouldn't immediately understand the data.

2) If a contact comes in range of the player's radar (who otherwise can't see the contact) and I say, "Make a sensory equipment check!" I've essentially just told the player there's a contact on his radar - again, making the skill check redundant. It's similar to saying, "Ok guys, make a perception check!" in that I've now just told the players that there is something hidden there to be perceived, which will inherently change their thought process/behavior (their characters would have no idea so why should they?)

I'm not sure if I'm being sufficiently clear here - and I'm certainly not trying to be confrontational. I appreciate all the replies and the help! I just really don't understand the logic/workings of this. Thanks again!

A few things on this
1a) Players who metagame should suffer severe smiting at the hands of the GM. They are flat out cheating and in my book a GM is with in rights to basically do what ever they feel like to rectify the situation. And make no mistakes about it. Basing actions in game on information that the characters do not have and that only exists outside of the game is the very definition of metagaming and cheating.

1b) I like to solve the temptation for this by calling for a number of rolls at the start of the session. I write these down and then as the game progresses when I need to know if they make a save vs psi vs that covert mind control, or a perception check to spot that hidden item or say to detect an incoming salvo of LRMs... I cross check with the roll they already gave me.
This lets the players have full agency by making all their rolls themselves. But they don't know when, or even if, I will use those rolls.
I combine this by simply calling for rolls at random times in my games. As I have copies of the character sheets I will often simply say "Everyone give me a D20 roll" I know what the roll is for, and who it applies to... so I can look up the proper bonus or penalty on anyone that it actually applies to. Everyone else I just ignore.

2a)Part of the roll would be for things like "did you have the sensors properly calibrated and set up to notice the missiles." The recent crash between a US Navy ship and a cargo ship was caused in part due to the sensors being miss-calibrated and thus not providing the proper data... aka a failed sensors roll in Palladium terms. It can also represent things like "did you have your eyes on the sensor at the right time" seconds are critical at the speeds of these attacks... if you were looking at the wrong gauge or reading the wrong display you might not see the warning until its too late.

2b) The roll would also be not just to notice that the attack was incoming but that the attack was coming, and then interpreting the data properly, fast enough to formulate a reply and implement that reply before impact. At the range of most Palladium Radars you would have only a few seconds to notice that you have bogies incoming, ID them as LRMs, get a target lock on them and fire counter battery...if you take even a few seconds to long to identify what that blip is then it's too late and you have already missed your chance to do anything.

Now sure, if you have counter battery systems locked and loaded on active sweep 24/7 like a major military force will then that's one thing. But short of such things your gambling.

[Zer0 Kay]

Also I think some people are picturing LRMs coming from well above the horizon flying at pretty high altitude but they could just as easily be flying in nape of the earth like modern cruise missiles in which case even picking them up on radar would be challenging as they would be going very fast and low until they reach terminal attack.

That would be rare smart missiles. Most rifts lrms will be dumb mlrs artillery rockets... with really long range.

[Meneliki]

I would like to also point out that unless you know the LRMs are coming (aka your sensor rolls are successful) you will not get your one chance to fire your defensive shot in the first place.
LRMs are pretty much the definition of "Surprise Attack" and as such RAW the target gets no defense at all.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

Also, someone mentioned "you make a sensory equipment" check to detect incoming missiles/other vehicles etc. Bear with me a sec, but this makes zero sense to me - for 2 reasons.

1) Radars are meant to actively alert the pilot to contacts - having the sensory skill, to me, simply says the character understands what the radar is trying to say. Having the pilot make a skill check is the opposite - that's the pilot actively querying the radar just to see if there's any contacts now. "No? Howabout now? No... k..... now?" If the radar pops up a little blip, then there's a blip. I fail to see the logic in a skill check here. If it has to do with whether the pilot understands the blip and what it means, that's seems pretty goofy that someone with robot/PA training and the sensory skill wouldn't immediately understand the data.

2) If a contact comes in range of the player's radar (who otherwise can't see the contact) and I say, "Make a sensory equipment check!" I've essentially just told the player there's a contact on his radar - again, making the skill check redundant. It's similar to saying, "Ok guys, make a perception check!" in that I've now just told the players that there is something hidden there to be perceived, which will inherently change their thought process/behavior (their characters would have no idea so why should they?)

I'm not sure if I'm being sufficiently clear here - and I'm certainly not trying to be confrontational. I appreciate all the replies and the help! I just really don't understand the logic/workings of this. Thanks again!

A few things on this
1a) Players who metagame should suffer severe smiting at the hands of the GM. They are flat out cheating and in my book a GM is with in rights to basically do what ever they feel like to rectify the situation. And make no mistakes about it. Basing actions in game on information that the characters do not have and that only exists outside of the game is the very definition of metagaming and cheating.

1b) I like to solve the temptation for this by calling for a number of rolls at the start of the session. I write these down and then as the game progresses when I need to know if they make a save vs psi vs that covert mind control, or a perception check to spot that hidden item or say to detect an incoming salvo of LRMs... I cross check with the roll they already gave me.
This lets the players have full agency by making all their rolls themselves. But they don't know when, or even if, I will use those rolls.
I combine this by simply calling for rolls at random times in my games. As I have copies of the character sheets I will often simply say "Everyone give me a D20 roll" I know what the roll is for, and who it applies to... so I can look up the proper bonus or penalty on anyone that it actually applies to. Everyone else I just ignore.

2a)Part of the roll would be for things like "did you have the sensors properly calibrated and set up to notice the missiles." The recent crash between a US Navy ship and a cargo ship was caused in part due to the sensors being miss-calibrated and thus not providing the proper data... aka a failed sensors roll in Palladium terms. It can also represent things like "did you have your eyes on the sensor at the right time" seconds are critical at the speeds of these attacks... if you were looking at the wrong gauge or reading the wrong display you might not see the warning until its too late.

2b) The roll would also be not just to notice that the attack was incoming but that the attack was coming, and then interpreting the data properly, fast enough to formulate a reply and implement that reply before impact. At the range of most Palladium Radars you would have only a few seconds to notice that you have bogies incoming, ID them as LRMs, get a target lock on them and fire counter battery...if you take even a few seconds to long to identify what that blip is then it's too late and you have already missed your chance to do anything.

Now sure, if you have counter battery systems locked and loaded on active sweep 24/7 like a major military force will then that's one thing. But short of such things your gambling.

This does make sense for missiles. What about regular contacts like robots/tanks etc that aren't particularly fast?

[eliakon]

I would like to also point out that unless you know the LRMs are coming (aka your sensor rolls are successful) you will not get your one chance to fire your defensive shot in the first place.
LRMs are pretty much the definition of "Surprise Attack" and as such RAW the target gets no defense at all.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

Also, someone mentioned "you make a sensory equipment" check to detect incoming missiles/other vehicles etc. Bear with me a sec, but this makes zero sense to me - for 2 reasons.

1) Radars are meant to actively alert the pilot to contacts - having the sensory skill, to me, simply says the character understands what the radar is trying to say. Having the pilot make a skill check is the opposite - that's the pilot actively querying the radar just to see if there's any contacts now. "No? Howabout now? No... k..... now?" If the radar pops up a little blip, then there's a blip. I fail to see the logic in a skill check here. If it has to do with whether the pilot understands the blip and what it means, that's seems pretty goofy that someone with robot/PA training and the sensory skill wouldn't immediately understand the data.

2) If a contact comes in range of the player's radar (who otherwise can't see the contact) and I say, "Make a sensory equipment check!" I've essentially just told the player there's a contact on his radar - again, making the skill check redundant. It's similar to saying, "Ok guys, make a perception check!" in that I've now just told the players that there is something hidden there to be perceived, which will inherently change their thought process/behavior (their characters would have no idea so why should they?)

I'm not sure if I'm being sufficiently clear here - and I'm certainly not trying to be confrontational. I appreciate all the replies and the help! I just really don't understand the logic/workings of this. Thanks again!

Spoiler:

A few things on this
1a) Players who metagame should suffer severe smiting at the hands of the GM. They are flat out cheating and in my book a GM is with in rights to basically do what ever they feel like to rectify the situation. And make no mistakes about it. Basing actions in game on information that the characters do not have and that only exists outside of the game is the very definition of metagaming and cheating.

1b) I like to solve the temptation for this by calling for a number of rolls at the start of the session. I write these down and then as the game progresses when I need to know if they make a save vs psi vs that covert mind control, or a perception check to spot that hidden item or say to detect an incoming salvo of LRMs... I cross check with the roll they already gave me.
This lets the players have full agency by making all their rolls themselves. But they don't know when, or even if, I will use those rolls.
I combine this by simply calling for rolls at random times in my games. As I have copies of the character sheets I will often simply say "Everyone give me a D20 roll" I know what the roll is for, and who it applies to... so I can look up the proper bonus or penalty on anyone that it actually applies to. Everyone else I just ignore.

2a)Part of the roll would be for things like "did you have the sensors properly calibrated and set up to notice the missiles." The recent crash between a US Navy ship and a cargo ship was caused in part due to the sensors being miss-calibrated and thus not providing the proper data... aka a failed sensors roll in Palladium terms. It can also represent things like "did you have your eyes on the sensor at the right time" seconds are critical at the speeds of these attacks... if you were looking at the wrong gauge or reading the wrong display you might not see the warning until its too late.

2b) The roll would also be not just to notice that the attack was incoming but that the attack was coming, and then interpreting the data properly, fast enough to formulate a reply and implement that reply before impact. At the range of most Palladium Radars you would have only a few seconds to notice that you have bogies incoming, ID them as LRMs, get a target lock on them and fire counter battery...if you take even a few seconds to long to identify what that blip is then it's too late and you have already missed your chance to do anything.

Now sure, if you have counter battery systems locked and loaded on active sweep 24/7 like a major military force will then that's one thing. But short of such things your gambling.

This does make sense for missiles. What about regular contacts like robots/tanks etc that aren't particularly fast?

I would say that almost all of it applies.
1a, 1b, and 2a all apply to any and all sensor use.
Especially 1b and 2a.
The only way that the GM is going to know if the radar operator set the radar right to detect that tank or if they interpret that ping correctly or if they disregard a valid signal as chaff or chaff as a signal... is to make a roll.

[Meneliki]

I would like to also point out that unless you know the LRMs are coming (aka your sensor rolls are successful) you will not get your one chance to fire your defensive shot in the first place.
LRMs are pretty much the definition of "Surprise Attack" and as such RAW the target gets no defense at all.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

Also, someone mentioned "you make a sensory equipment" check to detect incoming missiles/other vehicles etc. Bear with me a sec, but this makes zero sense to me - for 2 reasons.

1) Radars are meant to actively alert the pilot to contacts - having the sensory skill, to me, simply says the character understands what the radar is trying to say. Having the pilot make a skill check is the opposite - that's the pilot actively querying the radar just to see if there's any contacts now. "No? Howabout now? No... k..... now?" If the radar pops up a little blip, then there's a blip. I fail to see the logic in a skill check here. If it has to do with whether the pilot understands the blip and what it means, that's seems pretty goofy that someone with robot/PA training and the sensory skill wouldn't immediately understand the data.

2) If a contact comes in range of the player's radar (who otherwise can't see the contact) and I say, "Make a sensory equipment check!" I've essentially just told the player there's a contact on his radar - again, making the skill check redundant. It's similar to saying, "Ok guys, make a perception check!" in that I've now just told the players that there is something hidden there to be perceived, which will inherently change their thought process/behavior (their characters would have no idea so why should they?)

I'm not sure if I'm being sufficiently clear here - and I'm certainly not trying to be confrontational. I appreciate all the replies and the help! I just really don't understand the logic/workings of this. Thanks again!

Spoiler:

A few things on this
1a) Players who metagame should suffer severe smiting at the hands of the GM. They are flat out cheating and in my book a GM is with in rights to basically do what ever they feel like to rectify the situation. And make no mistakes about it. Basing actions in game on information that the characters do not have and that only exists outside of the game is the very definition of metagaming and cheating.

1b) I like to solve the temptation for this by calling for a number of rolls at the start of the session. I write these down and then as the game progresses when I need to know if they make a save vs psi vs that covert mind control, or a perception check to spot that hidden item or say to detect an incoming salvo of LRMs... I cross check with the roll they already gave me.
This lets the players have full agency by making all their rolls themselves. But they don't know when, or even if, I will use those rolls.
I combine this by simply calling for rolls at random times in my games. As I have copies of the character sheets I will often simply say "Everyone give me a D20 roll" I know what the roll is for, and who it applies to... so I can look up the proper bonus or penalty on anyone that it actually applies to. Everyone else I just ignore.



2a)Part of the roll would be for things like "did you have the sensors properly calibrated and set up to notice the missiles." The recent crash between a US Navy ship and a cargo ship was caused in part due to the sensors being miss-calibrated and thus not providing the proper data... aka a failed sensors roll in Palladium terms. It can also represent things like "did you have your eyes on the sensor at the right time" seconds are critical at the speeds of these attacks... if you were looking at the wrong gauge or reading the wrong display you might not see the warning until its too late.

2b) The roll would also be not just to notice that the attack was incoming but that the attack was coming, and then interpreting the data properly, fast enough to formulate a reply and implement that reply before impact. At the range of most Palladium Radars you would have only a few seconds to notice that you have bogies incoming, ID them as LRMs, get a target lock on them and fire counter battery...if you take even a few seconds to long to identify what that blip is then it's too late and you have already missed your chance to do anything.

Now sure, if you have counter battery systems locked and loaded on active sweep 24/7 like a major military force will then that's one thing. But short of such things your gambling.

This does make sense for missiles. What about regular contacts like robots/tanks etc that aren't particularly fast?

I would say that almost all of it applies.
1a, 1b, and 2a all apply to any and all sensor use.
Especially 1b and 2a.
The only way that the GM is going to know if the radar operator set the radar right to detect that tank or if they interpret that ping correctly or if they disregard a valid signal as chaff or chaff as a signal... is to make a roll.

OK, so to re-iterate...

For missiles I can see it. OMG - Missiles incoming! Roll to see if your sensory skills were on point at the crucial moment... even this seems a bit contrived but I'll let it go.
But.. for a party walking along it the woods... and suddenly... *blip*... a tank shows up on our RPAs' radar. It's stationary tank. Not moving. It's just kinda there. But it's within radar range now.Does my PC roll to detect it with his skill? If so, how often? Cuz.... this is where i"m getting confused.

If the player sees the tank, the tank sees the player. Even if the player is "Passive".. the only way he's gonna see the tank is that the tnak is active... fine.. but if the tanke is active... than he sees the player.. lol.. so.... yeah. Long story short = if player sees target, target sees player. period

Anyway. Again - guys I appreciate the help and insight. I feel like I'm not correctly communicating my confusion.

Again - not trying to be combatative or whatever. You guys have been champs and I appreciate it. Just a rookie GM trying not to stumble too hard on some of the rules. Thanks!

[eliakon]

For missiles I can see it. OMG - Missiles incoming! Roll to see if your sensory skills were on point at the crucial moment... even this seems a bit contrived but I'll let it go.
But.. for a party walking along it the woods... and suddenly... *blip*... a tank shows up on our RPAs' radar. It's stationary tank. Not moving. It's just kinda there. But it's within radar range now.Does my PC roll to detect it with his skill? If so, how often? Cuz.... this is where i"m getting confused.

Yes you roll.
Because until that moment you won't know if the sensors are set right, or the like...
The roll doesn't have to mean "you need to make a roll to actively look at the screen and read it" it can, and often does mean things like "did you set the antenna the right way five minutes ago?" or "can you adjust for the scatter from those rocks" or "did you compensate for the iron ore nearby" or whatever other factors might be in play

A good example would be an opposed skill roll.
You often don't know what the skill roll of the other person is when the player goes to make their action. That doesn't mean that just because you roll now to find out what the degree of success then was that the roll didn't happen in the past. Just that you are finding out what happened then, now.

If the player sees the tank, the tank sees the player. Even if the player is "Passive".. the only way he's gonna see the tank is that the tnak is active... fine.. but if the tanke is active... than he sees the player.. lol.. so.... yeah. Long story short = if player sees target, target sees player. period

And they both roll.
One of them might not have the sensors calibrated right.
Or might misread the data.
Or there might be a tree blocking the signal
Or they might not properly filter out scatter and miss the player
Or any of a number of other things.

The roll here is that random factor that changes it from "Everyone has an omniscient view of everything" to "everyone has limited knowledge that might be fallible...so lets see what you think know."

[HWalsh]

So, the roll is because radar doesn't work like a video game.

You don't get a circle screen with blips. You get a lot of blips and the system tries to determine what things are, but they get false positives...

Ya know, get onto youtube and find footage of the game "objects in space" and see what happens when you get an unknown contact. (OiS is VERY accurate in radar use.)

You have to look at it and say:

"Is this a ship? It's not moving and has no IFF running... Is it a derilect, or disabled? I'm not sure. Is it a pirate laying in wait? An unexploded torpedo? An asteroid? Maybe it's a false positive?"

That is a sensor roll. Your radar gives you tons of unknowns. You have to figure out what the unknown is.

In OiS you, the player, have to guess based on how the unknown contact behaves and even then there is uncertainty. That's what the roll is for.

[Meneliki]

It does make a bit more sense now.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I appreciate it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Radar false positives are usually a harmonic echo of another target so it would move at the same speed and be at the same azimuth as the target it was reflected from, until it wasn't. If the radar is messed up (this normally doesnt happen and if it does it is probably going to happen in a predictable way to all real targets. If, as the GM, you decide that false positives are occurring then a successful roll means that the PC has figured out which reflections are the shadow. But the effect should remain and require the pilot to have the radar repaired.