Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
slade2501
Explorer
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 1:34 pm
Comment: For the baddies I shoot, and their bodies I loot; Oh RNJesus, you I salute!
Location: Maine

Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by slade2501 »

I read the stats, and can't believe that NG would make a SAMAS suit without 200mdc for a main body. Its 60 mdc less than the old death head samas that the CS doesn't even use on the front line anymore. In my campaign, if any player buys, steals or finds a red hawk suit, it has a main body mdc of 230.
User avatar
kaid
Knight
Posts: 4089
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by kaid »

slade2501 wrote:I read the stats, and can't believe that NG would make a SAMAS suit without 200mdc for a main body. Its 60 mdc less than the old death head samas that the CS doesn't even use on the front line anymore. In my campaign, if any player buys, steals or finds a red hawk suit, it has a main body mdc of 230.



It is I believe even by cannon a bit intentionally underpowered. NG does not want to get slapped down by the CS so the designed performance of their flying armors tends to underperform the SAMAS. The big advantages are their availability to players is a lot better. In general though most of the NG armor/power armor comes in about 10-20% less than CS models because their tech base has not caught up fully to the CS.

The NG's concern about the CS reaction to the red hawk and blue hawk was such that I believe it is mentioned that they are willing to scrap those product lines if there is enough push back from the CS. It to them is not worth starting up a major conflict they could not win.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

NG doesn’t have the same tech base as the CS. A LOT of their PAs are quite a bit less armored - MANY of them, particularly the man-sized ones and not the oversized ones like the Samson - have less than 200 MDC.

I dont really see why you’re surprised.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
slade2501
Explorer
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 1:34 pm
Comment: For the baddies I shoot, and their bodies I loot; Oh RNJesus, you I salute!
Location: Maine

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by slade2501 »

I was thinking more in terms of "now there is a demon apocalypse going on, so the thousand or so Red hawk suits someone might fight the CS with are probably not the biggest problem the CS has to deal with right now" and they wouldn't really notice that NG slightly improved the suit without asking as they want their troopers to live longer n stuff. Bigger fish to fry n all that.

call it a block II red hawk if you will. I kinda like that.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Except looking through the descriptions, their capabilities are never stated as being reduced because of the fear of the CS.

In fact, it says they released it anyway but are prepared to pull it if the CS complains - which they haven't.

Again, NG doesn't have the super-advanced MDC armor that the CS and Triax do. Their suits have less than the CS across the board. The Original Samson, for instance, has 240 MDC. Before the Block III upgrade (which is slightly larger, and heavier, indicating that they simply added more armor), the CS equivalent of this Power Armor - I.E. a non-man-sized one where the pilot doesn't entirely wear it like a suit but uses foot and arm controls - is the Terror Trooper. Which has 400 MDC. (And is actually a tiny bit smaller than the Samson, though not enough that i'd call it a feature or anything).

Even with the Block III upgrade, it STILL doesn't match the Terror Trooper (still has 80 MDC less).

The Red and Blue Hawk PAs have the armor they should as NG products.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
kaid
Knight
Posts: 4089
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by kaid »

Even though their armors are not as advanced as the CS or triax the advantage is it is a lot easier to buy NG stuff above board. You can go to an NG store and even special order something if it is not in stock and for the bigger ticket items they will bring it to their bigger stores for you to pick up. There is a lot to be said for dealing with an actual salesman as opposed to some black market/illicit vendor. Also a lot of the CS stuff you could buy on the black market is probably used combat gear so a lot of it may not be in pristine condition to begin with as opposed to being able to buy a brand new "off the shelf" red hawk/blue hawk.

The NG power armor line has a pretty good range of basically augmented exoskeleton armor that still offers significant amounts of personal armor for inexpensive prices if you are willing to use electric/solid ox versions all the way up to the samson which may not be a match armor wise with a terror trooper is a pretty damn solid front line combatant aided by the fact that it is also one of the most common armor types so getting replacements is pretty reasonable. The upgrades of the new universal energy cables is a HUGE advantage for adventurers. It allows the NG armor that has it a great deal better flexibility to use the right type of gun for the opponents you are fighting. Also if a weapon gets battle damaged its as simple as grabbing a different gun slotting in the cable and you now have infinite ammo again.

I am very curious to see the titan robotics book that the raw preview is coming out for. It will be interesting how fleshed out their commercial product line is going to be and where that falls in between NG/CS/Triax power level.
User avatar
slade2501
Explorer
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 1:34 pm
Comment: For the baddies I shoot, and their bodies I loot; Oh RNJesus, you I salute!
Location: Maine

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by slade2501 »

kaid wrote:Even though their armors are not as advanced as the CS or triax the advantage is it is a lot easier to buy NG stuff above board. You can go to an NG store and even special order something if it is not in stock and for the bigger ticket items they will bring it to their bigger stores for you to pick up. There is a lot to be said for dealing with an actual salesman as opposed to some black market/illicit vendor. Also a lot of the CS stuff you could buy on the black market is probably used combat gear so a lot of it may not be in pristine condition to begin with as opposed to being able to buy a brand new "off the shelf" red hawk/blue hawk.

The NG power armor line has a pretty good range of basically augmented exoskeleton armor that still offers significant amounts of personal armor for inexpensive prices if you are willing to use electric/solid ox versions all the way up to the samson which may not be a match armor wise with a terror trooper is a pretty damn solid front line combatant aided by the fact that it is also one of the most common armor types so getting replacements is pretty reasonable. The upgrades of the new universal energy cables is a HUGE advantage for adventurers. It allows the NG armor that has it a great deal better flexibility to use the right type of gun for the opponents you are fighting. Also if a weapon gets battle damaged its as simple as grabbing a different gun slotting in the cable and you now have infinite ammo again.

I am very curious to see the titan robotics book that the raw preview is coming out for. It will be interesting how fleshed out their commercial product line is going to be and where that falls in between NG/CS/Triax power level.


I haden't heard about the new titan book. Very excited about that, as I love Titan robotics.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Is the Northern Gun Red Hawk's armor under strength?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

kaid wrote:Even though their armors are not as advanced as the CS or triax the advantage is it is a lot easier to buy NG stuff above board. You can go to an NG store and even special order something if it is not in stock and for the bigger ticket items they will bring it to their bigger stores for you to pick up. There is a lot to be said for dealing with an actual salesman as opposed to some black market/illicit vendor. Also a lot of the CS stuff you could buy on the black market is probably used combat gear so a lot of it may not be in pristine condition to begin with as opposed to being able to buy a brand new "off the shelf" red hawk/blue hawk.

The NG power armor line has a pretty good range of basically augmented exoskeleton armor that still offers significant amounts of personal armor for inexpensive prices if you are willing to use electric/solid ox versions all the way up to the samson which may not be a match armor wise with a terror trooper is a pretty damn solid front line combatant aided by the fact that it is also one of the most common armor types so getting replacements is pretty reasonable. The upgrades of the new universal energy cables is a HUGE advantage for adventurers. It allows the NG armor that has it a great deal better flexibility to use the right type of gun for the opponents you are fighting. Also if a weapon gets battle damaged its as simple as grabbing a different gun slotting in the cable and you now have infinite ammo again.

I am very curious to see the titan robotics book that the raw preview is coming out for. It will be interesting how fleshed out their commercial product line is going to be and where that falls in between NG/CS/Triax power level.


All good points that i didn’t bring up mostly because i was trying to restrict my response to the armor value issue.

Aslo, a well handled Block III Samson will likely, 1v1 (assuming that both suits are free to maneuver and not tied down defending a single area that they cant leave), stand an extremely good chance to KOing a Terror Trooper without taking serious damage.

The Terror Trooper is commonly armed with the Missile Rifle as its hand-held weapon, and has a decent number of onboard Mini-Missiles... but that is its only long range punch. The Samson, OTOH, has the (extremely good) NG-Super Railgun that hits like a truck at 4000ft, and enough Mini-Missiles to counter dangerous volleys from the Terror Troopers built-in launcher, and the Missile Rifle itself isn’t terribly good against other PA units - they can shoot the missiles down fairly easily (it can only fire one at a time) or dodge them as the rifle doesn’t get huge bonuses.

Im not saying its a 100% win for the Samson or anything, but if you stick and move (and the Samson is more mobile with its jump jets) and keep the range open, the Samson could fairly easily beat the Terror Trooper after its onboard Mini-missiles are exhausted, and if he reserves his own Mini-missiles to shoot down any volleys.

Also, expect the Coalition to upgrade a lot of its units with the UEL as well - NG licensed it for the Death Knight, and i’d expect them to continue to do so. Honestly, since the art for the Smiling Jack would simply not allow the use of the C-40R, arming the Smiling Jack with a UEL would make a TON of sense and make that thing quite a bit more viable.

But again... being able to go into any totally legal NG shop and just buy what you need is a huge advantage.

You wont get murdered on the spot for driving a Samson through CS territory. You will get killed on the spot for owning a Terror Trooper.

Though the UEL to me seems... i dunno, a bit like a cheat. Any other PA system from earth-based manufacturers has had power-drain issues (like the V-SAM from FQ, which takes a speed penalty when it fires its powerful laser, which isnt even as powerful as a lot of the weapons a UEL can power), so it seems odd that NG all of a sudden just figured it out (ahead of a group like Triax that never experienced the Dark Age and has had 250+ years of additional research over all of NA).

If i were re-writing things, i’d probably have the UEL do something similar. Like.. you get 3-5 E-clips worth of shots (say, there is an on-board capacitor that is linked to the UEL system), and after that, unless you let the capacitor recharge, you take a minor penalty to performance drawing directly from the reactor. After prolonged use without the capacitor, the performance penalty might climb.

.. but DONT apply those penalties to Solid-OX powered suits! Another benefit of Solid-OX - 100% power right up until there is no power.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”