Kingdom of Tarnow

[SolCannibal]

What books beside Sourcebook 2: Mindwerks gives us major info on its history, territory, resources and troubles?

Re-reading the sourcebook i felt a kind of paucity of material that went beyond the Tarnow Crystal x King Peter Wojtyla clash of wills.

Details on how did the king or his predecessors keep things running before he had the damnable stone is a particular area of interest of mine, but honestly, anything else speaking of the kingdom, its natives or some other plotline like colaterals of the NGR's big push against the Gargoyles, the Brodkill Kingdom's growth or Minion War shenanigans festering around could be fun to read about.

[Curbludgeon]

Mindwerks, Triax 1/2, and Sovietski have the only mentions of Tarnow that come to mind.

[SolCannibal]

Mindwerks, Triax 2, and Sovietski have the only mentions of Tarnow that come to mind.

I guessed Triax 2 would have something on it. The Sovietski book? Not so much and that's a good surprise, now i'm curious. Thanks.


As an aside, extra book info into closest neighbours - welcome or unwelcome - should be good too. Does Tarnow fights mostly with the Brodkill and Mindwerks, or does it also suffer with Gargoyle border troubles and other stuff?

[SolCannibal]

Just checked the Sovietski book - mostly some passing references to say Tarnow is still around and its king being an isolationist ass (due to the crystal's influence probably), but not doing much else. Looks like that plotline - and the kingdom - is going to stay sealed in amber for the next decade...

There's some reference that "The Sovietski doesn’t feel as though the King has any claim to the Kaliningrad complex or the industrial capabilities within, and ignores any communications from the small kingdom stating otherwise.", but the idea of Tarnow even making such a claim sounds like such a rolling ball of demented nonsense i don't even know what to say.

(do the writers even know what a map is?!?)

Seriously, i'm feeling of late like doing a Rifts map for Europe, North Africa and the Warlords territories could be a very helpful resource for fans and freelancers both.

PS: Is there some major nexus connecting parts of Tarnow and Kaliningrad nobody told me about? Because that could be a "stupid fun" solution to the geographical issue as i see it.

[SolCannibal]

My recent re-reading of the material on Tarnow in Sourcebook 3 has inspired some thoughts and i even tinkered with another thread or two while trying to better shape them up. These are some of the impressions, ideas and questions got so far.

- Tarnow, not the NGR or the Sovietski, is the major bastion of tolerance and equality in Europe, a nation where unlike those nations - or many unamed mixed communities - D-bees live under the same laws and receive the same treatment as humans. Also, unlike those other major powers, they have no qualms about dealing with or making use of supernatural resources, as shown by the important role of the Tarnow Crystal in the nation's current fortunes.

- This climate of "true justice" has attracted millions of non-humans to the Kingdom in numbers "that threaten to surpass the human population". Passages on the capital of New Tarnow and other population centers do seem to reinforce that "mixed population"' angle. What makes it somewhat surprising the lack of info into what those D-bee races might be. No breakdown whatsoever.

(What led me to make another topic just to adress the subject, among other things)

- The kingdom's set of values - along with the additional commonality of orders of knighthood and a culture of chilvary (the king itself is a knight, must be said) - makes me think that Camelot and other states from Rifts: England might have some familiarity, if not quite friendly relations, with the Kingdom. There's just too much in common to ignore and this kind of interaction/crossover could lead to pretty interesting plotlines (how would Zazshan react to the crystal? Could it have some relation to the one Mrrlyn himself was imprisoned into for centuries? Would he covet it or want the damn thing sealed even tighter?).

(While i'm guessing from a lack of any of her "letters/diaries" mentioning the kingdom it never came to pass, if Erin Tarn ever visited Tarnow during her travels through parts of Europe, it could lead to some distant correspondence or diplomacy with either Lazlo, New Lazlo, Tolkeen or other magical/mixed states where her works are respected, what could lead in all kinds of stories for adventurers as couriers, diplomatic attaches/bodyguards, security/mercenary troops in sea trade, spies & other possibilities. Why should only the tech powers play at intercontinental diplomacy?)

- The nation, while relatively backward when compared to technological powerhouses like the NGR, the Coalition, Free Quebec or Northern Gun, is a definitely well-developed one (their technology is roughly equal to the early 21st Century, the capabilities of most of its factories are limited to the manufacturing of S.D.C. products, which was a serious problem until the discovery of the Tamow Crystal). New Tarnow is an industrial city that is currently home to 6 million inhabitants (3.6 million human and 2.4 million D-bees), and continues to grow. Those are some pretty impressive numbers for any metropolis.

- These high population numbers - and the fact they have even this much tech that does not involve MDC combat hardware - seems to imply there must be considerable trade in and out of the country, as otherwise i see little reason for them to maintain this much merchandise.

- As mentioned in another topic, the kingdom has a not insignificant presence in the Baltic Sea and beyond, something made even more impressive/"crazy awesome" by the fact it's a landlocked nation and as given their only tether to sea or ocean the Vistula river. The degree to which their actual MDC hardware is naval-oriented just reinforces the idea that, yes, this was by intent and river & sea exploration, trade (they have cargo ships, for crying out loud, if that does not speak of some sort of large-scale sea trade, i don't know what does) or adventuring in general to play a major role in the nation's day-to-day.

(someone needs to make an add-on about them for Underseas. An updated map to take in account their Vistula and Baltic presences would be good too)

- What is there of relevance about Krakow and Warsaw in Rifts Earth? Both cities appear in some maps (see "Brodkill Empire" & "Key Ley Lines" maps, pages 111-112) but could find no info whatsoever on either of them in the Mindwerks book.

- Are there any dog boys or psi-stalkers communities in Europe? Because the Psi-Bloodhound R.C.C. very much implies the Brodkill Empire has a number of them as slaves, that are then converted into Psi-Bloodhound through a variant M.O.M. process. Don't know if i ignore this as a continuity hiccup or exploit the heck out of it with either such a enslaved people or some weird homebrew D-bee race reminiscent of both...

- There's a millenium tree somewhere in Poland. It's mentioned in passing in "Locations of Known (Millenium) Trees" in WB3: pg 14. and reinforced in an indirect way by the "Mantaz Sectles can be found inhabiting and protecting most Millennium Trees around the world. Dabugghs are found in northwestern Europe, including France, Germany and Poland" sentences in the "D-Bees of Germany & Poland" chapter of Mindwerks sourcebook. Where in Poland, no idea whatsoever (maybe over the ruins of Warsaw? I kind of like closing two loose threads in one answer).

[The ineffible GM]

I've been running a one-on-one Rifts game set in Tarnow for over a year now, so there's a lot that I have had to explore with it.

I'll have to break this up as a series of posts, but I'll start with this:
ADVICE:
- There's stuff that you are going to have to ignore. There are things that don't make a lot of sense. So...
- Focus on key points that seem most important to you and your game, and then extrapolate from there as you decide which details you edecide to ignore, and which to keep.

First Big Points I started with:
- The Crystal is supposedly A) Used to turn every single piece of military hardware into MDC alloy after it is manufactured, and B) apparently a Big Secret. Think about that. HGoiw does the king make it to every piece of manufactured hardware without anyone knowing about the crystal? I went with "divine right of kings", that the people actually think that it is the power of the king, of the Royal bloodline, that is 'blessing' the hardware and allowing it to face brodkil and demons. And this is a big part of what has kept them in power even as they grow more paranoid and crazy as rulers over all these years.

[SolCannibal]

I've been running a one-on-one Rifts game set in Tarnow for over a year now, so there's a lot that I have had to explore with it.

i'm aware of that game, ended up sending a post in your topic about it, along with a PM, just a few days ago.

I'll have to break this up as a series of posts, but I'll start with this:
ADVICE:
- There's stuff that you are going to have to ignore. There are things that don't make a lot of sense. So...
- Focus on key points that seem most important to you and your game, and then extrapolate from there as you decide which details you edecide to ignore, and which to keep.

First Big Points I started with:
- The Crystal is supposedly A) Used to turn every single piece of military hardware into MDC alloy after it is manufactured, and B) apparently a Big Secret. Think about that. HGoiw does the king make it to every piece of manufactured hardware without anyone knowing about the crystal? I went with "divine right of kings", that the people actually think that it is the power of the king, of the Royal bloodline, that is 'blessing' the hardware and allowing it to face brodkil and demons. And this is a big part of what has kept them in power even as they grow more paranoid and crazy as rulers over all these years.

That is actually a quite practical alternate take of the facts. Don't know if i'll do things like that or take in a different direction - truth be told, exploring the blank areas left from the subject of the nation's people, the king's heavy investment in water-worthy military & sea trade related resources, some thoughts about expanding the royal line beyond the 4 family members given, have tempted me to leave the Crystal's issue pretty much untouched and in the background. The Kingdom could do well witth having other stories for a GM to tell about.

[The ineffible GM]

That is actually a quite practical alternate take of the facts. Don't know if i'll do things like that or take in a different direction - truth be told, exploring the blank areas left from the subject of the nation's people, the king's heavy investment in water-worthy military & sea trade related resources, some thoughts about expanding the royal line beyond the 4 family members given, have tempted me to leave the Crystal's issue pretty much untouched and in the background. The Kingdom could do well with having other stories for a GM to tell about.

A lot of what I've tried to do is fill in those same blank spaces, because there are a lot of them. That being said, there's actually a lot that can be explained by linking it to some of the aspects that are already there in the books.
For instance, the divine right of kings approach? I don't believe that there is anything in the books that contradicts this. There just isn't anything specifically saying that it IS there. The books don't actually say anything one way or the other about how the King manages to convert all this military hardware into MDC materials while still maintaining the secret of the crystal - which is really bizarre. The engineers that design these power armor suits and boats, they don't know how the metal is being processed? The factory workers can't tell the difference between tin or aluminum and MDC quality steel-alloy?
So this gives them a reason. And it justifies a nation keeping this family in power without uprising all these years, despite repeated insanity and paranoia. The Targaeryns only stayed in power in GoT because they had pet dragons, and eventually even they got overthrown.
And what if the crystal wasn't a secret? Well how many different super/magic/psychic thieves would have already stolen the crystal if they knew what a prize it was?

So another big issue to consider with the crystal is the economy of Tarnow. The books say that the king just keeps making gold to pay for whatever they want.
But that only works for so long. It's called inflation.
So in my take, the current king is well aware of how careful he needs to be in creating gold and other rare metals in order to not crash the economy. He knows he won't have a kingdom if he can't pay his soldiers.

Now, as for the massive investment in the navy - Well the Vistula is noted as a major corridor for trade. And this is great, but also kind of weird if you look too hard at the geography. It's a long river, compared to the size of Tarnow. The length of the river from Tarnow to the Baltic is longer than the width of the whole country. That's a long stretch to try and control, even if it does open trade. Why do it then?
Well, here's a little secret that can help with a lot of the inconsistencies in Tarnow's history: Every king went crazy.
Seriously, the crystal makes you crazy. Mostly towards paranoia and violent outbursts, but over the years I'm sure each ruler had their own special take on madness.
So why try and control the river? For trade? Why not trade with closer settlements? The river doesn't even go to the Poznow collective. It might go to Wroclaw, depending on how real world geography converts to rifts.
Answer: The king went crazy.
He started getting paranoid of all the nearby allies that he was already dealing with, and got convinced that controlling the river would be a doorway out to the sea, and then the ocean, and then to trade with anyone in the world he wanted. Maybe he heard a rumour about Japan and decided to try and send boats there. He's crazy. The demon in the crystal loves it though, because he's sending piles of soldiers and seaman to die in a long bloody struggle to seize control of the river. And every time an advisor tells him that it's a bad idea, it's not worth the money and lives that are being lost in making this happen, well the demon just whispers in his ear that the advisor must be a traitor. Or a coward. Or a cowardly traitor. Or a spy from the Russian Warlords trying to stop his master plan and force him to trade with local powers that are clearly out to get him.

So, anytime you run into a problem about how Tarnow works as a country, or doesn't work, a good card to play is "The king went crazy".

I'll be back with more.

[SolCannibal]

Sorry it took me so long to reply, i wanted to take some time with answering to your ideas and comments, but lots of things (like Carnaval in Rio) happened and it took me some effort to get back on track. But now let's roll.

That is actually a quite practical alternate take of the facts. Don't know if i'll do things like that or take in a different direction - truth be told, exploring the blank areas left from the subject of the nation's people, the king's heavy investment in water-worthy military & sea trade related resources, some thoughts about expanding the royal line beyond the 4 family members given, have tempted me to leave the Crystal's issue pretty much untouched and in the background. The Kingdom could do well with having other stories for a GM to tell about.

A lot of what I've tried to do is fill in those same blank spaces, because there are a lot of them. That being said, there's actually a lot that can be explained by linking it to some of the aspects that are already there in the books.
For instance, the divine right of kings approach? I don't believe that there is anything in the books that contradicts this. There just isn't anything specifically saying that it IS there. The books don't actually say anything one way or the other about how the King manages to convert all this military hardware into MDC materials while still maintaining the secret of the crystal - which is really bizarre. The engineers that design these power armor suits and boats, they don't know how the metal is being processed? The factory workers can't tell the difference between tin or aluminum and MDC quality steel-alloy?
So this gives them a reason. And it justifies a nation keeping this family in power without uprising all these years, despite repeated insanity and paranoia. The Targaeryns only stayed in power in GoT because they had pet dragons, and eventually even they got overthrown.
And what if the crystal wasn't a secret? Well how many different super/magic/psychic thieves would have already stolen the crystal if they knew what a prize it was?

You have a strong imagery going here, something that makes me think of Marc Bloch's Rois et Thaumaturges and the medieval belief in the powers of the royal touch. It runs a bit counter to the more fairy tale-esque tale in the book of how the Tarnow crystal was accidentally discovered by a family of fishers and given to the present king - by the book, people know of the king's possession of a magical stone with the power to transform materials. There's no secret per se and (for now at least) i'm sticking to that somewhat.

One twist i have done, inspired by the fact its power source is an Alien Intelligence, is to give it the crystal to make/summon/spam "lesser crystal seeds/fragments", what makes the idea of the Crystal solving the MDC materials needs of a nation somewhat more viable (a theoretically unlimited number of lesser stones helps cover it), frees the king from having to spend all his time transmuting stuff himself (now he only has to telepathically check/vouch on the use of the others at times) while adding a note of wonder through the king's capacity to both create, check, block (and unmake) the "legate stones" according to neccessity or convenience.

I intend to keep the Tarnow Crystal as a wonder specific to king Peter instead of the whole line, but will probably riff from your ideas on the Woytjla's as blessed kings in other ways - like, without a MDC hardware industry available they would need to have had something supernatural to help with preserving the kingdom in decades or centuries past. Now i have this idea of each king having a secret/treasure that was either spent or lost, in a sort of heroic cycle of loss & discovery through the generations, similar and yet different for each king...

Incidentally, some bits on "Old Tarnow" and its fall to the Brodkill before the current kingdom leave in the air the possibility that it might have been the nation that razed the Angel of Death's neighbors and lead to her mutilation, breakdown and descent into madness...

So another big issue to consider with the crystal is the economy of Tarnow. The books say that the king just keeps making gold to pay for whatever they want.
But that only works for so long. It's called inflation.
So in my take, the current king is well aware of how careful he needs to be in creating gold and other rare metals in order to not crash the economy. He knows he won't have a kingdom if he can't pay his soldiers.

Agreed. Any monarch worth its salt understands the crystal capacity's to produce riches is better used with moderation, to oil gears in strategic places and advance certain under the table interests instead of reckless mass production riches, that will only devalue one's own resources.

Now, as for the massive investment in the navy - Well the Vistula is noted as a major corridor for trade. And this is great, but also kind of weird if you look too hard at the geography. It's a long river, compared to the size of Tarnow. The length of the river from Tarnow to the Baltic is longer than the width of the whole country. That's a long stretch to try and control, even if it does open trade. Why do it then?

Well, the book does (kind of) say the kingdom controls the waterways up to 100 miles from its borders, what is pretty relevant, so the map is far from precise (to the point that the damnn thing doesn't even have an scale, bummer) and desperatelly needs some revision and update.

Overall i go with the idea of the river being essential for the sake of commerce, because Tarnow is described as having a reasonably well-developed industry, what would be quite useless and not interesting for them at all to preserve if they did not have someone, in fact several someones, to trade in large scale with (they have MDC cargo ships, really). That combined with the fact the Brodkill kingdom nearly engulfs them can explain quite well why they care to invest in water- and sea- related hardware (that said, while having access to the sea & ocean is good, living in an actual coastline of cities exposed to atlantean raiding, not so much, what can sort of explain the peculiar geography).

This and the fact it lets me riff loads of stuff from Underseas (maybe even South America, Coalition's Navy or Lemuria) to crossover with through the agency of polish corsair-traders and undersea explorers for some added value. Tarnow as a growing stealth power involved in the going ons of the seas of Rifts Earth opens room for some crazy awesome setting expansion.

Maybe setting up some outposts/colonies in a bunch of places to serve as seasonal bazars for them to meet, interact and deal with locals could be interesting too. Making the people of Tarnow with their ships, naval tech and king of bottomless pockets into the phoenicians/venetians of Rifts Earth. Could lead to a fun game.

"By the bottomless pockets of the king!!" that's totally going to be an expression from Tarnow natives.

[Just gonna call them polish or come up with some specific name for them? questions, questions...]

[glitterboy2098]

looking at the real world maps, and assuming that the named cities aren't too far from the real world cities they were named after..

if Tarnow controls a 100 mile stretch of the vistula river (which is basically the only waterway of any note anywhere near it) on either side of its land (using a generous assumption about its borders) it would control a stretch from Krakow west to about Katowice, and the stretch curving north between krakow and warsaw.

applying similar logic to the poznan collective, they would control the vistula from Gdansk on the coast, south to.. Warsaw.
i suspect that Poznan and the NGR make use of Tarnow's defended stretch of the vistula for deep raids and recon into the Brodkil lands, and that the only reason the NGR hasn't stationed a permanent occupation force garrison in Tarnow is Tarnow being too strong to bully and too proud to submit.

i suspect the real danger is the ruins of warsaw, which would be right on the frontlines between the Poznan collective (and NGR garrison forces) and the Brodkil territory, and a perfect place for ambushes of passing ships.

now i'm going to have to check SB3 and see if the location of the mindwerks facility is indicated, and see whether it is close to Tarnow.

[SolCannibal]

looking at the real world maps, and assuming that the named cities aren't too far from the real world cities they were named after..

if Tarnow controls a 100 mile stretch of the vistula river (which is basically the only waterway of any note anywhere near it) on either side of its land (using a generous assumption about its borders) it would control a stretch from Krakow west to about Katowice, and the stretch curving north between krakow and warsaw.

applying similar logic to the poznan collective, they would control the vistula from Gdansk on the coast, south to.. Warsaw.
i suspect that Poznan and the NGR make use of Tarnow's defended stretch of the vistula for deep raids and recon into the Brodkil lands, and that the only reason the NGR hasn't stationed a permanent occupation force garrison in Tarnow is Tarnow being too strong to bully and too proud to submit.

That and the fact the NGR is better off having allies and/or trade partners fighting potential enemies for them than spending their own far from limitless resources on it. The NGR overall doesn't demonstrate any of the kind of expansionist/empire-building vibe one can occassionally get from the Coalition or some of the warlords, for example. I tend to see more of a soft power/marshall plan style of strategy in their actions and interactions with other states.

i suspect the real danger is the ruins of warsaw, which would be right on the frontlines between the Poznan collective (and NGR garrison forces) and the Brodkil territory, and a perfect place for ambushes of passing ships.

now i'm going to have to check SB3 and see if the location of the mindwerks facility is indicated, and see whether it is close to Tarnow.

That's another thing to mess with if i ever try to make a revised version of the SB3's maps.

[The ineffible GM]

Sorry it took me so long to reply, i wanted to take some time with answering to your ideas and comments, but lots of things (like Carnaval in Rio) happened and it took me some effort to get back on track. But now let's roll.

Totally understood, I'm often in much the same sort of boat.

You have a strong imagery going here, something that mmakes me think of Marc Bloch's Rois et Thaumaturges and the medieval belief in the powers of the royal touch. It runs a bit counter to the more fairy tale-esque tale in the book of how the Tarnow crystal was accidentally discovered by a family of fishers and given to the present king - by the book people know of the king's possession of a magical stone with the power to transform materials. There's no secret per se and (for now at least) i'm sticking to that somewhat.

See, now this is interesting. Because I had been under the impression that, by the book, the people did NOT know about the crystal.
Having just re-read through the entry on Tarnow and the crystal, it actually doesn't say one way or the other. It says that the crystal was found by a fisherman and his family, and that they believed it to be worth a kings ransom, and they brought it to King Wojtyla and were handsomely rewarded. It doesn't actually say whether or not anyone else knows about the crystal. (I also got the timeline for this a little jumbled in my head, thinking the crystal had been in the family line much longer than the book says. Personally, I think it would have needed to be around longer if Tarnow would have survived/existed as long as it has).
In my head, the fishing family kept it a secret, or if they talked then most folks wouldn't have believed them or this would have been the source of rumours but not 'general knowledge'. But, re-reading it, I can totally see how it could mean that EVERYBODY would have known about the king acquiring this 'National Treasure'.
So...that will be an interesting divergence in our two different Tarnow's.

Incidentally, some bits on "Old Tarnow" and its fall to the Brodkill before the current kingdom leave in the air the possibility that it might have been the nation that razed the Angel of Death's neighbors and lead to her mutilation, breakdown and descent into madness...

I like it, though at this point I may or may not be incorporating it into my setting. The game I've been running has gone through a lot so far and we've...moved 'past' Mindwerks at this point....

Now, as for the massive investment in the navy - Well the Vistula is noted as a major corridor for trade. And this is great, but also kind of weird if you look too hard at the geography. It's a long river, compared to the size of Tarnow. The length of the river from Tarnow to the Baltic is longer than the width of the whole country. That's a long stretch to try and control, even if it does open trade. Why do it then?

Well, the book does (kind of) say the kingdom controls the waterways up to 100 miles from its borders, what is pretty relevant, so the map is far from precise (to the point that the damnn thing doesn't even have an scale, bummer) and desperatelly needs some revision and update.

Overall i go with the idea of the river being essential for the sake of commerce, because Tarnow is described as having a reasonably well-developed industry, what would be quite useless and not interesting for them at all to preserve if they did not have someone, in fact several someones, to trade in large scale with (they have MDC cargo ships, really). That combined with the fact the Brodkill kingdom nearly engulfs them can explain quite well why they care to invest in water- and sea- related hardware (that said, while having access to the sea & ocean is good, living in an actual coastline of cities exposed to atlantean raiding, not so much, what can sort of explain the peculiar geography).[/quote]
So my thought was that even though the river was their primary source of trade according to the book, it still didn't make sense to me. There is A LOT of heavy spending and investment on their naval capacity. Each Walesa cargo ship is 70-80 million credits on the black market, each Sea Star power armor is another million, even with cheap production due to low grade metals, there is a lot put into this navy...and no where to go.
By the book, a hundred miles either way on the river isn't enough, and there aren't any significant trade partners to make it worth the investment - strictly from an economics standpoint. You've got Poznow and Wroclaw, and villages and small towns along the way. NGR might not have anything against Tarnow, and might like knowing that there's a bastion of civilization out there keeping the Brodkil busy, but they wouldn't really engage in trade (too many d-bees and mages, and not much to offer to NGR when Triax can make all the same stuff but better). There is something that Tarnow does have to offer Triax, but I'll get into that in another post.
Yes, you do need that much firepower to defend such a stretch of river, but you wouldn't get enough trade to make it worth sustaining. On top of that, the Sea Star suit was specifically designed for "deep sea diving". The river is not going to require that kind of reinforced equipment.
The extent of the navy only makes sense as a vanity project.
So that's the way I wrote it. That, and a 'grand dream' that (in my version of Tarnow) King Wojtyla actually was able to stretch his control of the river north all the way to the Baltic sea.

This and the fact it lets me riff loads of stuff from Underseas (maybe even South America, Coalition's Navy or Lemuria) to crossover with through the agency of polish corsair-traders and undersea explorers for some added value. Tarnow as a growing stealth power involved in the going ons of the seas of Rifts Earth opens room for some crazy awesome setting expansion.

I had much the same thought when I decided to have Tarnow stretch it's control of the Vistula out to the Baltic, but then I looked through Underseas and was quite disappointed. Not much from Underseas actually gets into the Baltic at all. Most of the book deals with the Pacific, and the Atlantic stuff supposedly all goes on in the southern Atlantic. Even Lemuria doesn't really do anything up that way. There's the possibility of the New Navy, because they could be anywhere, but mostly they operate in the Pacific as well.
That being said, I've made the Splugorth a small menace on the Baltic, since I figure they will slave raid anywhere they can, and the Horune Pirates apparently do travel into there. I've also included a small plotline in my game about spies from the New Navy being sent into the world in a few places to gather intel on potential land-based allies. The idea being that many in the New Navy think that maybe they should come out of hiding - and that right now that haven't decided whether or not they should come out, but HAVE decided to start learning more about who is out there for when they DO come out.
I also have started brainstorming an underwater settlement of Ichthyleans (from the Lemuria book) that have developed in the Baltic in the sunken ruins of the city of Riga.

Now, I've been trying to work on a longer post about some of the other things I have developed for my version of Tarnow, and I'll post what I have so far in my next post right after this...

[The ineffible GM]

My Tarnow:
Trade and economics are an interesting point for Tarnow, and might require more thought than you realize. Firstly, who does Tarnow trade WITH? They are not noted for having sizeable amounts of pre-rifts technology, so their ability to exist completely self-sufficiently would be difficult. They need food, which they can grow on their lands but large areas of farm fields are terribly difficult to defend from wandering Brodkil that can turn invisible to slip by widely spaced sentries. They need metals, because even if the crystal can turn one metal into another you need to have some kind of metal to begin with. These could be mined within Tarnow, and would likely need to be. This can create a lot of blue collar labour employment for the populace, an excellent place for strong d-bees to find a place in society. Cyborgs would also find a place in mines. They would need manufacturing capabilities, which Tarnow is described as having plenty of industrial capabilities.
But the mining possibilities don't seem great for Tarnow, at a glance. A brief review of mines in Poland on Wikipedia lists a lot of coal, and eight mines that focus on some sort of metal - but most of them are in the West end of Poland, now ruled by Brodkil. So maybe (as was surmied in a Rifter article) some underground Rifts phased new mineral deposits into the ground under Tarnow. Even if this is the case though, and Tarnow can mine enough metal for it's own needs, then there are still countless other products, and parts to products, that the people of Tarnow would want to seek out and trade for.

So the question is, where would they go?
According to the books the options are:

NGR: Would likely have minimal trade, due to the inhuman and magical portions of Tarnow's populace. This is supported in the books, where NGR is usually described as having some grudging respect for Tarnow as a small bastion of civilization beset by monsters on all sides, but largely ignored due to distance and cultural 'difference'.

Russian Warlords: There doesn't seem to be a lot of interaction between these forces. Tarnow is likely too strong, and too far away to be an inviting target for raids from the Warlords, and it is easy for the warlords to to dismiss Tarnow as being Polish, and not 'Real Russian' enough to bother with. There is likely some small amount of trade between the two, and strong, sturdy/bulky Russian cybernetics would probably be welcome in Tarnow to help with their mining.

Sovietski: They were not even hinted at when Tarnow was first written about, and when the Sovietski were written about Tarnow was barely a footnote to say that the two don't really get along.

Scandinavian Alliance: This barely appears in Triax 2, and while there have been tantalizing hints dropped on these forums about possible upcoming details, we actually still have nothing of substance to work with here. They may well have trade with Tarnow, what with Tarnow's control of the Vistula that leads up to the Baltic sea, but it's pretty far to be anything consistent at this point.

Gargoyle Empire: Well, no. Not really an option.

Brodkil Empire: Ha! No.

Mindwerks: See above.

Horune Pirates: One of the exceedingly few factions in Underseas that is actually shown to have any presence in the Baltic sea, but they aren't exactly the "trading" type. More the "raiding" type. So...probably not.

And that's about it according to the books. Except... a) In Tarnow's description it says that they trade with small settlements up and down the Vistula, and B) Rifts has always promoted the idea that there are many small independent communities, kingdoms, self-declared baronies and monarchies and upstart nations that rise and fall and fill in little gaps between these big players.
So in order to make the landscape around Tarnow more interesting I decided to make a few small "kingdoms" to deal with.

My Tarnow: Neighbours
I'll start by saying that the Tarnow game I'm running is a one-on-one game, where the player wanted to try playing a Princess - A player that until this game has been only somewhat familiar with Rifts as a setting in general. I decided that I would focus on making my new neighbours also ruled by monarchies (with a variety of legitimacy) and trying to focus mostly on interesting ways to work with elements of Rifts that exist in the setting in one form or another, but with my own twist. So what this means is: No big new alien races. No democracies or republics. Nothing that would be big enough to throw off the balance of power that exists within the books (at least when the game began).
I am not against democracies or Republics at all, just that the nature of my game was to have a theme of royal intrigue and politics.
I will also admit to sometimes playing into cultural 'images' to inform
So, I created three small nations: Branwen, Mir and Talonstein.

I'm still working on the longer write ups to put here for each of the nations, but here's a brief summary for each:

Branwen - A city-state kingdom that has survived a long time as an independent entity between the Brodkil and the Russian warlord's outer reaches of influence. They have survived mostly by repairing and patching a very long-serving fleet of Triax robots and power armor - that they kind of accidentally stole decades ago. Right now their biggest problem is that the fleet is getting old, and there is a lot they can fix and duct tape, or cannibalize from damaged machines, but there are key components that they cannot replicate. And Triax won't sell to them, or anyone that does business with them, because of the original accidentally-stolen equipment. So they are coming to Tarnow for help getting parts.

Mir - Another city state to the East of Tarnow, near the old city of Mir. It is ruled by a dragon, 160 years old. Young by their standards, but old enough to be powerful enough that she can protect the city. She doesn't care about the people so much as she cares about "her city". She can be quite vain, but is intelligent and sees the city not unlike her nest. She is generally a fair ruler, though can at times be harsh in punishments. The city has plenty of magic users, though tech is everywhere too. The main point of drama I have here is that someone from Atlantis heard about the place, and while certainly not big enough for Splyncryth to bother with, the church of Dragonwright has sent an ambassador, trying to convert the queen...and so far she thinks she might like the sound of the cult coming to her city...telling people to worship her as a god, not just a queen.

Talonstein - Imagine a pack of werewolves, where the alpha of the pack decided that he didn't want to run a pack - he wanted to run a kingdom. So he took his pack granted them all titles, and divied up patches of land throughout the northern area of what was Romania, and told them not to eat the people. Protect them. Because we are now a kingdom.
Why would they agree to this? Aren't people food? #1 they agree because the Alpha says so, and insert political drama between some members that think they should go back to being wolves more than people, and #2 I decided that the werewolves actually really like the taste of Brodkil, so it's not a big deal to leave the humans alone and just feed on these plentiful monsters.
There's a lot more that I have on this particular place, and to be honest - I worked out this whole idea before I saw any of the stuff here on the boards about the Scandinavian Alliance that was hinted at in Triax 2.

Any way, I'll be back with more soon.

[slade2501]

reading the sourcebook at age 20 something and then re-reading it at age 40 gives a man a different perspective on it. I dont think that the king would let his alignment or world view change SO much. As we all grow older, we learn that the voices in our head are our own ID and EGO, and we learn some discipline and self control, to resist our darker urges. So I kinda throw out that "evil" influence bit, keep him unprincipled or chaotic good as it were, and had some players save his kid brother from an assassination attempt, along with getting him married to a lovely, mdc d-bee woman who can tank plasma blasts and is of a good alignment. SO, he's stable and the kingdom prospers, being a lynch pin of humanity in the area (I gave it PLOT ARMOR). lol

[SolCannibal]

Sorry it took me so long to reply, i wanted to take some time with answering to your ideas and comments, but lots of things (like Carnaval in Rio) happened and it took me some effort to get back on track. But now let's roll.

Totally understood, I'm often in much the same sort of boat.

You have a strong imagery going here, something that mmakes me think of Marc Bloch's Rois et Thaumaturges and the medieval belief in the powers of the royal touch. It runs a bit counter to the more fairy tale-esque tale in the book of how the Tarnow crystal was accidentally discovered by a family of fishers and given to the present king - by the book people know of the king's possession of a magical stone with the power to transform materials. There's no secret per se and (for now at least) i'm sticking to that somewhat.

See, now this is interesting. Because I had been under the impression that, by the book, the people did NOT know about the crystal.
Having just re-read through the entry on Tarnow and the crystal, it actually doesn't say one way or the other. It says that the crystal was found by a fisherman and his family, and that they believed it to be worth a kings ransom, and they brought it to King Wojtyla and were handsomely rewarded. It doesn't actually say whether or not anyone else knows about the crystal. (I also got the timeline for this a little jumbled in my head, thinking the crystal had been in the family line much longer than the book says. Personally, I think it would have needed to be around longer if Tarnow would have survived/existed as long as it has).
In my head, the fishing family kept it a secret, or if they talked then most folks wouldn't have believed them or this would have been the source of rumours but not 'general knowledge'. But, re-reading it, I can totally see how it could mean that EVERYBODY would have known about the king acquiring this 'National Treasure'.
So...that will be an interesting divergence in our two different Tarnow's.

I remember something about either Mindwerks or the Brodkill leadership finding out of the Crystal through espionage and such too, but anyway, points of divergence and i have yet to define how popular and (im)precise the story actually is. Might also give the king Draupnir to the family, as an additional treasure full of story and meaning to confuse the issue.

Incidentally, some bits on "Old Tarnow" and its fall to the Brodkill before the current kingdom leave in the air the possibility that it might have been the nation that razed the Angel of Death's neighbors and lead to her mutilation, breakdown and descent into madness...

I like it, though at this point I may or may not be incorporating it into my setting. The game I've been running has gone through a lot so far and we've...moved 'past' Mindwerks at this point....

Well, shadowy threats of the past lurking in the borders/under the noses of the righteous in the present are a good standby, it's all in how much fantasy, sci-fi or mix-up one wants in one's game. In Mindwerks' case there's also the bonus of her having some nebulous but pretty respectable presence in eastern/central europe's Black Market through a number of MoM, Psynetics & Borg technology chop-shops. It's actually pretty easy to play her agents from quite different angles unrelated to her Lone Star-esque secret instalation or the Brodkill Empire.

So my thought was that even though the river was their primary source of trade according to the book, it still didn't make sense to me. There is A LOT of heavy spending and investment on their naval capacity. Each Walesa cargo ship is 70-80 million credits on the black market, each Sea Star power armor is another million, even with cheap production due to low grade metals, there is a lot put into this navy...and no where to go.
By the book, a hundred miles either way on the river isn't enough, and there aren't any significant trade partners to make it worth the investment - strictly from an economics standpoint. You've got Poznow and Wroclaw, and villages and small towns along the way. NGR might not have anything against Tarnow, and might like knowing that there's a bastion of civilization out there keeping the Brodkil busy, but they wouldn't really engage in trade (too many d-bees and mages, and not much to offer to NGR when Triax can make all the same stuff but better). There is something that Tarnow does have to offer Triax, but I'll get into that in another post.
Yes, you do need that much firepower to defend such a stretch of river, but you wouldn't get enough trade to make it worth sustaining. On top of that, the Sea Star suit was specifically designed for "deep sea diving". The river is not going to require that kind of reinforced equipment.
The extent of the navy only makes sense as a vanity project.
So that's the way I wrote it. That, and a 'grand dream' that (in my version of Tarnow) King Wojtyla actually was able to stretch his control of the river north all the way to the Baltic sea.

True, 100 miles - damn, even 100 miles in each direction from the borders, text is vague enough for one to interpret it that way - is far from enough. BUT, that, along with all the info on ships, naval tech, hardware and more is what convinced me that the Vistula was their inroad to trade with someone, several unamed someones in fact, and that a presence in the Baltic was in order. And well, if you have a deep sea diving power armor, it stands to reason that you are doing stuff - either fighting or dealing - deep undersea. Everything else is just me wanting to extrapolate stuff from there.

That and the fact Tarnow is described as having a far from insignificant technological infrastructure (early 21th century) - something that not being MDC hardware-related, would be quite strange for them to have preserved if they didn't have some major reason like trade with other places as an incentive. Also planning to give some form to this mentioned but not described "large D-bee population" of the kingdom.

This and the fact it lets me riff loads of stuff from Underseas (maybe even South America, Coalition's Navy or Lemuria) to crossover with through the agency of polish corsair-traders and undersea explorers for some added value. Tarnow as a growing stealth power involved in the going ons of the seas of Rifts Earth opens room for some crazy awesome setting expansion.

I had much the same thought when I decided to have Tarnow stretch it's control of the Vistula out to the Baltic, but then I looked through Underseas and was quite disappointed. Not much from Underseas actually gets into the Baltic at all. Most of the book deals with the Pacific, and the Atlantic stuff supposedly all goes on in the southern Atlantic. Even Lemuria doesn't really do anything up that way. There's the possibility of the New Navy, because they could be anywhere, but mostly they operate in the Pacific as well.

Main reason why i cited Coalition's Navy, as there's much wiggle room for the stuff described there to be applicable to both Great Lakes and Atlantic Coast to a degree. Truth be told i have yet to re-read the books to get a better hang of what to mine from them, but do remember a pirate empire lead by a shifter/witch from another dimension in South America, among other things.

That being said, I've made the Splugorth a small menace on the Baltic, since I figure they will slave raid anywhere they can, and the Horune Pirates apparently do travel into there. I've also included a small plotline in my game about spies from the New Navy being sent into the world in a few places to gather intel on potential land-based allies. The idea being that many in the New Navy think that maybe they should come out of hiding - and that right now that haven't decided whether or not they should come out, but HAVE decided to start learning more about who is out there for when they DO come out.
I also have started brainstorming an underwater settlement of Ichthyleans (from the Lemuria book) that have developed in the Baltic in the sunken ruins of the city of Riga.

Now, I've been trying to work on a longer post about some of the other things I have developed for my version of Tarnow, and I'll post what I have so far in my next post right after this...

Yes, yes, Splugorth and Horune are a must almost everywhere. Also toying with the idea of a number of underwater kingdoms & tribes, in the Baltic and Vistula both and some diplomacy, trade and conflict to toy with, either with Tarnow, Atlantis between each other or anything in between.

[The ineffible GM]

Alright, the first installment of my little series of European Independent Nations:

Branwen
Branwen is a small city-nation that has survived through the post-cataclysm dark ages almost entirely by accident.

What began as an Eastern European city that was ravaged by the rifts managed to rally enough people from the countryside that they could pull together and survive the worst of times. The city had been the site of a military grade robot armor factory, and the products stored in warehouses there allowed the city to save itself from the onslaught of monsters though the factory itself was destroyed within the first days of the cataclysm.

They did not have the knowledge to rebuild the factory, but they had a small force of robot vehicles that civilians managed to teach themselves to use. They may not have been able to construct a factory to build more, but they figured out how to repair what they had. The cadre of engineers able to repair the machines became important figures, but even more important was the woman that rallied the city together and kept people's hopes high. Unfortunately, she was far better at getting hopes up and rallying crowds than she was at actually organizing and planning. The people loved her, but the city struggled. They convinced themselves that it was the trouble of the world around them that was keeping the city in tough times, but if things had been better managed from the beginning then Branwen might not have struggled nearly as much as it did in the coming centuries.

Their charismatic leader was at first given the title "Queen" almost as a joke, but it stuck. And and eventually she groomed her son (and the populace) to have him take on the mantle of Leader of Branwen. When outsiders started finding and wandering through the city, they might ask who the leader was and would be directed to "King Branimir" - and the title began to stick for good. A new monarchy was born - and the city became known by the name of it's first Queen - Branwen

The city of Branwen survived by holding itself together with duct tape, spite, and a collective sense that the world was out to get them. Too far from the NGR or the Russian Warlords for help, and eventually too independent minded to let themselves succumb to the Warlord's reach.
Eventually they would have succumbed though, to the Brodkil and other monsterous outside forces. They didn't have the resources or knowledge to build a new military force, mostly just repair what they had. They never felt stable enough to invest heavily in developing such research and technological infrastructure anew, the city (often because of the insecurity of its leaders) always felt like they were still struggling uphill every day. They were suspicious of magic and outsiders, and while there are some D-Bees and a few magic users and psychics in Branwen they are viewed with a great deal of suspicion and rarely lead very peaceful lives in the city.

As the years went by the machines in their armed defense force were failing more and more, and after more than a century of use they were more patches than original parts - but they were all they had. What little trade came through the city in early years was rarely offering new military grade equipment, and most of the time any such things that Branwen did see would be deemed “too expensive” for the royal coffers to afford. Branwen’s leaders always had a problem investing in the future, they were too preoccupied with fears of just surviving the present.

Then one day, just over a century ago, the city was under attack from a small army of undead lead by a Necromancer and Shifter (brothers) and an attempt by the one to summon demonic reinforcements went awry - and instead of demons, the portal deposited a Triax convoy of just-built military bots and power armor strapped to transport trucks into the middle of the battlefield. The small armed escort was suddenly fighting for their lives, but alongside Branwen they defeated the wizards' forces - leaving a very small number of German soldiers with a substantial amount of military equipment that had been en-route to the front line for operation, surrounded by the Branwen military forces. The King of Branwen saw an opportunity, and seized it - by seizing the shipment of robots and power armor and demanding the surrender of the NGR troops.

Branwen was too far away from the NGR for any realistic military reaction, even when they eventually got word of what had happened to the convoy from Triax. What they did do, however, was blacklist Branwen from any future trade with Triax. This also included issuing sanctions to blacklist any individuals or organizations that might attempt to trade Triax equipment with Branwen.

For the last hundred years Branwen has kept the Triax bots and armor up and running as best they could, with patch jobs and cannibalizing some of the bots or armor that become too heavily damaged. But it has been a long time, and they are running out of replacement parts. While there is much they can make themselves, or work around, there are some components that are just beyond Branwen's ability to replicate. They know that Triax is the only place to get what they need, but also know that it's going to be more than a little difficult to get it.

What does this mean for Tarnow? It means that Tarnow is caught in the middle, where they might want to have good relations with Branwen, as a 'civilized' ally and trading partner that exists nearby, but they also know that they can't provide what Branwen wants/needs most without drawing the ire of the NGR. Despite the less than warm relations generally between Tarnow and the titan to the West, Tarnow also knows that it isn’t worth making an enemy out of them. There is still small amounts of trade, mostly through independent merchants bringing technological luxury goods into Tarnow, and there is a recent idea inside the Tarnow palace (in my Tarnow) that could lead to more trade between the nations (More on this later).

What about smuggling? Well in my Tarnow there isn't much smuggling happening. The NGR has no problem handing out harsh penalties to any small fry or mercenary that tries to make a quick buck if they get caught, and while Branwen will pay for any of the important parts they can get, they aren't so rich that they can throw piles of gold at anyone that comes in.
If anything, Tarnow has an interest in trying to sell their own military equipment to Branwen to replace the dying Triax machines, but even that might feel too expensive for Branwen There could also be problems with the populace of Branwen (especially the respected cadre of engineers responsible for fixing the Triax machines) turning away from the machines that has protected them so long, and has formed a significant part of their identity.

[SolCannibal]

Branwen sounds interesting, a city-state persisting through the skin of its teeth, existing through centuries of a hardscrabble existence through a combination of endless troubles, their own limitations and a long-standing difficulty to make the right decisions they need to actually bulk up and prosper.

The incident with the Triax convoy accidentally rifted into a different front is nice too, though i'm tempted to play the NGR troops as less victims and more active participants, going rogue out of a mix of sympathy for the locals plight, awareness of now being just as copped up away from backup as them - and yeah, a bit of adventurous "gone native warlord" style of ambition...

Though i'm kind of tempted to replace them with troops from another place like the Coalition, Republic of Japan, chinese Geofront or some nation from South America, to amp the "lost in our own world" angle a bit.

[shadrak]

I think the last story arc I had in Northern Europe and outside the NGR was a group of elite Teutonic Knights that control several citadels in Gargoyle Brodkil territory and have carved out some small protectorate between NGR and Warlord-held territory-possibly into the Baltics.

The Order is an elite force that has ties to Poznan and Tarnow but have essentially been ejected for agitating against the NGR (they are somewhat pro-DBee and pro-magic (limited in both cases)). The order itself has its own system of advanced combat, psionic-based abilities, and master craftsmen. They also have a contingent of "priests" have the ability to nullify some magic through ritual and some similar abilities to some forms of African magic. During the formal accolade for each knight their fellow knights participate in the ceremony that results in the enchantment of their armor and weapons (see Rifts: Africa for similar ceremony).

The Order utilizes squires as well. In the case of squires, their equipment is purchased from outside of the order, normally from Tarnow or a similar producer. Most weapons and armor of squires is not enchanted beyond being converted to MDC materials, but the various weapons are often made of stone, wood, iron, or silver.



It would be interesting to have some more material, especially with the Hades-Dyval conflict, focusing on Europe.

[SolCannibal]

I think the last story arc I had in Northern Europe and outside the NGR was a group of elite Teutonic Knights that control several citadels in Gargoyle Brodkil territory and have carved out some small protectorate between NGR and Warlord-held territory-possibly into the Baltics.

Only played one Rifts game set in Europe, basically involving a powerful but inexperienced godling that due to amnesia and a number of misunderstadings ended up inadvertently impersonating Thor and gathering a following in the process - in fact he shanked the minions of the Woden the Hangman and subsuming its mortal cult, that he lead into an exodus toward the NGR, much to their government's surprise and popular aclaim. And much craziness would spin off out of "Thor's" actions - half the time far more altruistic/heroic than the original one would be.

The Order is an elite force that has ties to Poznan and Tarnow but have essentially been ejected for agitating against the NGR (they are somewhat pro-DBee and pro-magic (limited in both cases)). The order itself has its own system of advanced combat, psionic-based abilities, and master craftsmen. They also have a contingent of "priests" have the ability to nullify some magic through ritual and some similar abilities to some forms of African magic. During the formal accolade for each knight their fellow knights participate in the ceremony that results in the enchantment of their armor and weapons (see Rifts: Africa for similar ceremony).

The Order utilizes squires as well. In the case of squires, their equipment is purchased from outside of the order, normally from Tarnow or a similar producer. Most weapons and armor of squires is not enchanted beyond being converted to MDC materials, but the various weapons are often made of stone, wood, iron, or silver.

They sound like an interesting blend of systems and ideas. While probably not going to connect them with historical knightly orders, i might use a variant of them in my own future games.

It would be interesting to have some more material, especially with the Hades-Dyval conflict, focusing on Europe.

That could be good - need not even be a whole book, just a few paragraphs in some book or other speaking of some bits in Europe could add much.

In a Minion War game i once sketched but ended up not GMing, the forces of Hades orchestrated a major advance through the Tree of Darkness, with the supposed intent of taking over and making it into a major base and source of resources on Rifts Earth.

That said, it was actually a feint, serving to distract from their actual purpose: infiltrating hundreds of thousands to millions of Gargoyles from the demon realm into the Gargoyle Empire and then start a coup and its takeover, making the whole empire into a camp of the forces of Hades in Rifts Earth. Obviously the ego of the demons prevents them from seeing a number of flaws in the actual implementation of this half-baked idea of a campaign plan - not to mention strategic problems from their own intrigue & etc - but certainly makes for a good concept to start stories from.

[taalismn]

Alright, the first installment of my little series of European Independent Nations:

Branwen.

Liking what I'm seeing here. The EINs look promising for both tactical and strategic adventure fodder.

[glitterboy2098]

My Tarnow:
Scandinavian Alliance: This barely appears in Triax 2, and while there have been tantalizing hints dropped on these forums about possible upcoming details, we actually still have nothing of substance to work with here. They may well have trade with Tarnow, what with Tarnow's control of the Vistula that leads up to the Baltic sea, but it's pretty far to be anything consistent at this point.

i hadn't planned on involving them in the book in any way beyond what is needed to address the Baltic.. but i'll make a not to try and work in a mention in the "relation with other nations" page if i can.

[dreicunan]

Regarding Tarnow and mining: taking the examples of the rockies in North America, it is not unreasonable to think that some of the land may have gotten switched around and thus new metal deposits were rifted into their territory to mine (at least that is a simple but canon-plausible explanation).

[SolCannibal]

Regarding Tarnow and mining: taking the examples of the rockies in North America, it is not unreasonable to think that some of the land may have gotten switched around and thus new metal deposits were rifted into their territory to mine (at least that is a simple but canon-plausible explanation).

Now i'm getting the idea of some mountain, or even a whole mountain range, that was not only rifted, but still switches with areas in other dimensions from time to time, in a phenomenon similar to the Fadetowns in the FoM worldbook. One or more mountains that gets replaced in cycles could offer most fascinating resources, options and challenges, imho.

[taalismn]

Regarding Tarnow and mining: taking the examples of the rockies in North America, it is not unreasonable to think that some of the land may have gotten switched around and thus new metal deposits were rifted into their territory to mine (at least that is a simple but canon-plausible explanation).

Now i'm getting the idea of some mountain, or even a whole mountain range, that was not only rifted, but still switches with areas in other dimensions from time to time, in a phenomenon similar to the Fadetowns in the FoM worldbook. One or more mountains that gets replaced in cycles could offer most fascinating resources, options and challenges, imho.

'Deadline Mining'----the practice of mining such mountains; if a reliable cycle has been observed, the materials valuable enough, and the equipment available, then teams might be trained to run in, extract as much as they can(or set it up for the next cycle's shift), then haul ass back out.
OR 'Fadetime Mining'---- if passage during a cycle is deemed safe enough, the mining team stays with the location, taking advantage of the seclusion(?) during the 'out-cycle' to mine enough material that, upon returning to their point of origin, they can offload and change shifts with a new crew.

[SolCannibal]

Regarding Tarnow and mining: taking the examples of the rockies in North America, it is not unreasonable to think that some of the land may have gotten switched around and thus new metal deposits were rifted into their territory to mine (at least that is a simple but canon-plausible explanation).

Now i'm getting the idea of some mountain, or even a whole mountain range, that was not only rifted, but still switches with areas in other dimensions from time to time, in a phenomenon similar to the Fadetowns in the FoM worldbook. One or more mountains that gets replaced in cycles could offer most fascinating resources, options and challenges, imho.

'Deadline Mining'----the practice of mining such mountains; if a reliable cycle has been observed, the materials valuable enough, and the equipment available, then teams might be trained to run in, extract as much as they can(or set it up for the next cycle's shift), then haul ass back out.
OR 'Fadetime Mining'---- if passage during a cycle is deemed safe enough, the mining team stays with the location, taking advantage of the seclusion(?) during the 'out-cycle' to mine enough material that, upon returning to their point of origin, they can offload and change shifts with a new crew.

Yes, that's the kind of crazy hijinks i was thinking about too.