Northern Gun Body Armour

[eliakon]

there are SDC plasma, particle beam, and ion weapons in other (less technologically advanced) palladium settings.

That doesn't prove anything.
Everything in those settings is SDC.
Now, if you can point to some SDC plasma or particle beams in an MDC setting...then you might be on to something.

We do have SDC Plasma settings on some MD Plasma devices:
-Bionics SB Hand/Forearm Attachment (pg97): Plasma Torch
-WB8 Japan IR-2020 Wrecker (pg167-8) has a Plasma Cutter, H-Brand knocks off this Robot (plasma cutter is not noted to changed)
-SB3 Mindwerks (pg 26) The Telekinetic Extension Implant for Pryokinetic Rounds releases a plasma bolt that can do MD or SDC (depending on how much ISP you spend)
-SB2 Mechanoids (pg69-72) has the Octopus Type2 with a Plasma torch that can do MD or SDC

I don't know of any Particle Beam devices in Rifts with multi-settings, but it doesn't seem out of the question with things like lasers and plasma having the option.

Psionics and cutting torches do not demonstrate that you can make SDC plasma weapons.
Again. Find a technological plasma weapon that does SDC. I'll wait.

And I still would like to point out that every single canon discussion of training has separate weapons
NG1 uses separate laser tag systems
Merc Ops uses separate laser tag systems
It is almost like the canon is that you use separate laser tag systems...

The Mechanoid system has a range of 1200ft/610m, easily putting it the ranged weapon category and comparable to some plasma ejectors. The Wrecker is 20ft, and the Bionic system is 3ft. not the best range. They all have a rate of fire that is equal to the available attack/actions.

Mindwerks is technology that is powered by ISP (at least that is how I read it since you need the appropriate -Kinesis Super Psionic Power, none of which really translate to damage/ISP-cost for the implants).

1) Octopus has "Fusion torch (which isn't plasma to start with...)" and is explicitly listed as a tool.
But hey... super advanced Mechanoid technology (which is said to be more advanced than anything the Splugorth or 3Gs have) can make a SDC fusion torch... for their 40' tall mecha!
So... that almost counts.
Other than is not plasma, not a weapon, alien ultra tech, and the device is the size of most power armor suits...

2)The wrecker at least has plasma.
But it is a plasma torch. Not a weapon. A cutting/welding torch. Again, that proves nothing. Especially considering the size of the device!

3) the bionic device is another cutting/welding torch. Again, that proves nothing.

4)And Psionic technology that has nothing at all to do with anything else. It literally proves Nothing because it is psi-tech.

Now... if you can find a plasma (not fusion) weapon (not cutting/welding tool) that has an SDC setting (and is an MDC setting) and is a technological device (not psi-tech, nor magi-tech, nor elder-tech, nor any other form of weird snowflake hybrid tech)... you will have a point.

You will also need to do something about the issue of the canon being settled on how training is conducted though...
since if the entire purpose of arguing that you can, and should, have these SDC settings is that you need them for training. And the canon is already set in stone that the training is done with separate specialized training gear...
well there is no need for retroactively inventing an SDC setting on energy weapons (that isn't supported by the text) Especially since it would negate the value of the few weapons that have it and that would make the fact that the few weapons that have it consider it a noteworthy feature a non-sequitor.

(As suggested by another person...would you like to move this to another thread?)

[ShadowLogan]

1) Octopus has "Fusion torch (which isn't plasma to start with...)" and is explicitly listed as a tool.

I consider the fusion torch to be a plasma device. For all practical purposes they are the same, or close enough to be affected by the same resistances (Plasma weapons are susceptible to heat resistance/imperiousness). The fusion torch also has an unlimited payload, with "heat and flame" (per text), which makes it plasma IMHO (since that appears to be the use in RUE).

2)The wrecker at least has plasma.
But it is a plasma torch. Not a weapon. A cutting/welding torch. Again, that proves nothing. Especially considering the size of the device!

3) the bionic device is another cutting/welding torch. Again, that proves nothing.

Never said they are weapons, only a plasma device that could do MD and SDC. The Wrecker is located in the Robots finger, a robot 24ft tall (which would be approx. rifle size for a 6ft person IINM). And the Bionic one is the size of a beefy finger.

Most laser torches can be used as impromptu weapons if need be by the rules and descriptions. So can plasma, and there is even a Plasma ejector that can function as a torch (see below).

4)And Psionic technology that has nothing at all to do with anything else. It literally proves Nothing because it is psi-tech.

I disagree. You may need to be psychic to operate the item, but you do not need to be a psychic to build (unlike Techno-Wizardry) AFAIK in this case (not saying TW-like Psychic devices don't exist, but this is not one of them).

Now... if you can find a plasma (not fusion) weapon (not cutting/welding tool) that has an SDC setting (and is an MDC setting) and is a technological device (not psi-tech, nor magi-tech, nor elder-tech, nor any other form of weird snowflake hybrid tech)... you will have a point.

I've looked at 200+ ranged plasma devices (Rifts, RT/Macross-licences), other than the ones I've noted there aren't any (though my collection is far from complete).

There shouldn't be a reason you can't tailor a plasma weapon to do SDC. We know there are plasma weapons with variable performance (FX-99,pg123 WB22, can operate as either a torch or ejector with variable range and damage). Damage/performance is also variable between examples (M-15 Plasma Rifle of Mindwerks does more damage than the CS C-27 Plasma Ejector, and with much more range to, Archie's Arch 230 Plasma Cannon even performs better than the C-27). So there is nothing that should stop a weapons manufacturer from producing such technology given we have examples of laser weapons and devices come in a variety of performance values.

You will also need to do something about the issue of the canon being settled on how training is conducted though...

Not really. I don't see an SDC mode as "training" mode only. An SDC mode would be there to give versatility to the shooter. Obviously you have low power training (if desired), but you also get the "non-overkill" or "proportionate response" options, you also don't incur the weight penalty of having to carry a comparable SDC weapon. Otherwise why even have the SDC mode in the first place in the examples we have?

(As suggested by another person...would you like to move this to another thread?)

Not really I don't think there is anything more to really discuss.

[jaymz]

Guys if you have the money to train anyone (instead of learning on the job) you are not going to care about using live firing in order to learn your weapon. MDC materials are NOT that expensive for such an endeavor as per merc ops. (MDC concrete etc)

[eliakon]

1) Octopus has "Fusion torch (which isn't plasma to start with...)" and is explicitly listed as a tool.

I consider the fusion torch to be a plasma device. For all practical purposes they are the same, or close enough to be affected by the same resistances (Plasma weapons are susceptible to heat resistance/imperiousness). The fusion torch also has an unlimited payload, with "heat and flame" (per text), which makes it plasma IMHO (since that appears to be the use in RUE).

Since plasma weapons in RUE appear to be some sort of super napalms like substance that has physical effects...
no, I would say that they are likely different.

2)The wrecker at least has plasma.
But it is a plasma torch. Not a weapon. A cutting/welding torch. Again, that proves nothing. Especially considering the size of the device!

3) the bionic device is another cutting/welding torch. Again, that proves nothing.

Never said they are weapons, only a plasma device that could do MD and SDC. The Wrecker is located in the Robots finger, a robot 24ft tall (which would be approx. rifle size for a 6ft person IINM). And the Bionic one is the size of a beefy finger.

Most laser torches can be used as impromptu weapons if need be by the rules and descriptions. So can plasma, and there is even a Plasma ejector that can function as a torch (see below).

An improvised weapon is not a weapon.
When the best that you can get is 30' by putting something in a 24' robot that suggests that you are not able to get 2400' in a small rifle.
It is like using a welding torch as the comparison to demonstrate something about flamethrowers...

4)And Psionic technology that has nothing at all to do with anything else. It literally proves Nothing because it is psi-tech.

I disagree. You may need to be psychic to operate the item, but you do not need to be a psychic to build (unlike Techno-Wizardry) AFAIK in this case (not saying TW-like Psychic devices don't exist, but this is not one of them).

This isn't TW.
I said Psi-Tech.
This is not tech it is psionics.
You don't need to be a psychic to build psi-tech. But it uses psionics to function and it is psychic fire not a technological fire.
It has no more relevance than a Bursters fire.

Now... if you can find a plasma (not fusion) weapon (not cutting/welding tool) that has an SDC setting (and is an MDC setting) and is a technological device (not psi-tech, nor magi-tech, nor elder-tech, nor any other form of weird snowflake hybrid tech)... you will have a point.

I've looked at 200+ ranged plasma devices (Rifts, RT/Macross-licences), other than the ones I've noted there aren't any (though my collection is far from complete).

Which sort of says something about the possibility of it doesn't it?
That the only SDC plasma are limited torches that are not shooting long range bolts of plasma but are instead just torches?

There shouldn't be a reason you can't tailor a plasma weapon to do SDC. We know there are plasma weapons with variable performance (FX-99,pg123 WB22, can operate as either a torch or ejector with variable range and damage). Damage/performance is also variable between examples (M-15 Plasma Rifle of Mindwerks does more damage than the CS C-27 Plasma Ejector, and with much more range to, Archie's Arch 230 Plasma Cannon even performs better than the C-27). So there is nothing that should stop a weapons manufacturer from producing such technology given we have examples of laser weapons and devices come in a variety of performance values.

Again, this is predicated on the totally unsubstantiated theory that you can make SDC plasma bolts.
Not continuous super short range low power beams like in a torch, but actual full on bolts.
It also assumes the totally unsubstantiated theory that the existence of a few variable weapons (which I note are much more expensive than non variable ones) demonstrates that all weapons can be made variable.
It also assumes that damage or range or the other stats of a weapon have any relevance to the question of if something is physically possible.

You will also need to do something about the issue of the canon being settled on how training is conducted though...

Not really. I don't see an SDC mode as "training" mode only. An SDC mode would be there to give versatility to the shooter. Obviously you have low power training (if desired), but you also get the "non-overkill" or "proportionate response" options, you also don't incur the weight penalty of having to carry a comparable SDC weapon. Otherwise why even have the SDC mode in the first place in the examples we have?

The logic falls apart here though. If you want the ability to have that capability... then get one of the weapons that already has it.
The stance that "I want the ability to have my cake and eat it too" is not a valid reason. Which is what saying that the justification for an SDC setting on a plasma or PB weapon is that it means that you don't have to use a Laser/Ion/Electric/Sonic/Psi/Kinetic/Exotic weapon instead.
If a unit wants to have proportional response that's great! Get one of the weapons that does that already. I see no reason to assume that it should be a normal feature of every weapon, nor even possible on every weapon.
Especially since it would go against the established canon which makes the SDC variable setting on the weapons that DO have the feature be a note-worthy feature that is discussed and often a major focus of the weapon!
Taking the entire point of a class of weapons and saying "I like this special feature that these special weapons have... lets give it to everything, but not charge for it" seems absurd.

And considering that the original justification for why this has to be available on Plasma and PB weapons was that you have to have SDC modes so that you can train with those specific weapons... which is demonstrated as false in canon... then I would say that training mode is a rather big deal and key issue.

(As suggested by another person...would you like to move this to another thread?)

Not really I don't think there is anything more to really discuss.

It seems there still is plenty to discuss.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Guys if you have the money to train anyone (instead of learning on the job) you are not going to care about using live firing in order to learn your weapon. MDC materials are NOT that expensive for such an endeavor as per merc ops. (MDC concrete etc)

however, as pointed out, the two canon sources we have on training programs (one is in Merc adventures, the other is pointed out above) clearly show that they use training weapons.

i dont disagree that training with full power weapons isnt that big of a deal, either. you dont even need MDC materials - a big hill is a good backstop. "earth" may "only" SDC, but enoigh of it would still be more than enough to stop laser fire. as long as you have a tractor or dozer available to re-move the earth, youre fine.

[ShadowLogan]

Elia Skipping over the blocks that are just back and forth repeating ourselves, we’ve probably got better things to do than that….

RUE Pg reference please for the Super Napalam.

I know the super napalm is used in RMB Missile section (pg42, along with 1E RT and other lines), and only their missile section. However this section appears to have changed in RUE (pg362. 1st Printing) with no reference to the super napalm.

The “Super Napalm” also AFAIK is only ever used with regard to missiles, not the plasma guns/torches, pointing toward it being for plasma explosives (like grenades, maybe even Naruni plasma cartridges), but not Plasma ejectors/beams and other devices that run of E-Clips or some other power source.

We know that SDC plasma and Particle Beam weapons exist in the Megaverse* AND that technology doesn’t instantly convert to MDC when brought to an MDC setting** (unlike the reverse). So the possibility of the technology is real in the setting.

*HU has SDC lasers, Ion beams, plasma ejectors, and particle beams in the Main Book (plasma/PBC found on pg98, laser and ion are easy enough to find), ATB’s MiO has all but the plasma.
**per Rifts Conversion Book (p27 Bionics and Robots don’t become MDC when coming from HU)

SDC attack options with MDC weapons is rare (less than 1% of the laser attacks I looked at, even less for others). And those examples are more region/block specific.

[NMI]

Looks like there are two or more subjects going on here. I would suggest someone start a new topic and link back to this one.