Do Missile and Grenade Volleys Count as Bursts?

[Hotrod]

Grenade launchers in canon are a little weird. Some launchers fire bursts with set damages, while others fire volleys such that all the grenades in the volley sum their damage together. Right now, I'm thinking that any volley, be it grenade or missile, counts as a single shot for the purposes of bonus to strike. Any thoughts on this?

[eliakon]

Unless something specifically says that it is a "burst" or "pulse" (the special snowflake energy burst) then it is not a burst.
The only things that use burst rules are... bursts.
A missile volley is not a burst, it is a volley.
A grenade weapon uses the rules it states. If it does NOT state any special rules, then and [b]only[b] then, would it use a burst rule. Since special weapon specific rules trump the general rules every time.

[Killer Cyborg]

Bursts of things use burst rules.
Volleys of things use volley rules.

[The Beast]

Bursts of things use burst rules.
Volleys of things use volley rules.

This.

[Hotrod]

How do volleys work with grenades? I've only ever applied them to missiles.

[eliakon]

How do volleys work with grenades? I've only ever applied them to missiles.

They don't?
The volley rules are pretty clear that they only apply to missiles and not any other form of projectile.

Grenades could use the burst rules...unless the specific weapon says otherwise (which is pretty standard)

[Nekira Sudacne]

How do volleys work with grenades? I've only ever applied them to missiles.

Can you quote me a weapon that fires "Volleys" of grenades? I've seen grenade launchers that can fire bursts of grendaes, but if there's one that says Volleys of grenades, I've missed it. context might provide clues.

[Blackwater Sniper]

I think it depends on what the weapon is used for, what it is targeting, and the damage it makes.

A pod that can fires multiple rockets at individual targets would be a volley.
A rifle aimed at one, single target firing all rounds at that target is using burst rules.

[Hotrod]

How do volleys work with grenades? I've only ever applied them to missiles.

Can you quote me a weapon that fires "Volleys" of grenades? I've seen grenade launchers that can fire bursts of grendaes, but if there's one that says Volleys of grenades, I've missed it. context might provide clues.

WB5: Triax has two types of borgs that have built-in grenade launchers that fire volleys. The VX-20 and the VX-320 are the grenade launchers for those types of borgs. The 20 is on the VX-2000 borg (the big one that doesn't have all the extra missile launchers).

[ShadowLogan]

Bursts of things use burst rules.
Volleys of things use volley rules.

HISTORICALLY SPEAKING as I can't find this in RUE at a quick glance, but in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

This would suggest that Volley = Burst, at least in terms of applicable WP bonuses (and Missile categories above Mini don't have an applicable WP in RUE or RMB). As mentioned I am not sure if that is still applicable in the time of Ultimate Edition, but historically that was the case for Rifts (I looked at HU2E no passage, but 1E RT's BK5 pg29 does include this).

How do volleys work with grenades? I've only ever applied them to missiles.

Can you quote me a weapon that fires "Volleys" of grenades? I've seen grenade launchers that can fire bursts of grendaes, but if there's one that says Volleys of grenades, I've missed it. context might provide clues.

WB5: Triax has two types of borgs that have built-in grenade launchers that fire volleys. The VX-20 and the VX-320 are the grenade launchers for those types of borgs. The 20 is on the VX-2000 borg (the big one that doesn't have all the extra missile launchers).

CS Super SAMAS pg119 of WB11 has forearm grenade launchers that under rate of fire are "volley of ".

As to how Volleys work with grenades, functionally they are identical in terms of mechanics: roll to strike (D20+bonuses if any), roll damage and remember Blast Radius/Area of Effect. Given the blast radius I could see treating it as impossible/difficult to dodge a volley/burst of 4+ like missiles.

[Nekira Sudacne]

How do volleys work with grenades? I've only ever applied them to missiles.

Can you quote me a weapon that fires "Volleys" of grenades? I've seen grenade launchers that can fire bursts of grendaes, but if there's one that says Volleys of grenades, I've missed it. context might provide clues.

WB5: Triax has two types of borgs that have built-in grenade launchers that fire volleys. The VX-20 and the VX-320 are the grenade launchers for those types of borgs. The 20 is on the VX-2000 borg (the big one that doesn't have all the extra missile launchers).

AH! that makes it clear. That is not a single grenade launcher, but rather has a bunch of individual RPG's that are launched individually from the rest. That would indeed be a Volley, beacuse each grenade fired is fired independantly from any other, and not all coming out of the same barrel. Really, they're more like mini-missiles with a shorter range and payload.

[Axelmania]

in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

Beat me to it! I always found it strange that 2 missiles could be aimed and it took 3 to be a burst...

The upper limit of 60 was also strange because I couldn't find anything in the book which could fire a volley of 60 missiles. Was there something in Robotech like that?

[Hotrod]

in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

Beat me to it! I always found it strange that 2 missiles could be aimed and it took 3 to be a burst...

The upper limit of 60 was also strange because I couldn't find anything in the book which could fire a volley of 60 missiles. Was there something in Robotech like that?

Triax had an attachment for the Jaeger that could fire a ludicrous number of missiles. Really. Like insta-kill a giant robot ludicrous.

[Blackwater Sniper]

in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

Beat me to it! I always found it strange that 2 missiles could be aimed and it took 3 to be a burst...

It has to do with recoil. For a handheld rifle, firing multiple rounds causes the muzzle to rise off the target. It is nearly impossible to accurately fire multiple rounds with an automatic or long burst.

[Axelmania]

in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

Beat me to it! I always found it strange that 2 missiles could be aimed and it took 3 to be a burst...

It has to do with recoil. For a handheld rifle, firing multiple rounds causes the muzzle to rise off the target. It is nearly impossible to accurately fire multiple rounds with an automatic or long burst.

My point is: wouldn't 1 missile by enough to cause recoil for the 2nd?

in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

Beat me to it! I always found it strange that 2 missiles could be aimed and it took 3 to be a burst...

The upper limit of 60 was also strange because I couldn't find anything in the book which could fire a volley of 60 missiles. Was there something in Robotech like that?

Triax had an attachment for the Jaeger that could fire a ludicrous number of missiles. Really. Like insta-kill a giant robot ludicrous.

I thought that was something like 120 though. Perhaps Kevin had envisioned it firing a mere 60 when he wrote RMB but improved its power by the time WB5 was finalized.

Not so much insta-kill if you destroy the entire volley with a single mini-missile, of course.

[ShadowLogan]

in RMB the following is stated under Mini-Missiles on pg42 "Strike bonuses are the same as modern weapon proficiencies;aimed (firing no more than two missiles, +3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60)"

Beat me to it! I always found it strange that 2 missiles could be aimed and it took 3 to be a burst...

The upper limit of 60 was also strange because I couldn't find anything in the book which could fire a volley of 60 missiles. Was there something in Robotech like that?

In terms of Mini Missiles: Negative for Book5, when Mini Missiles where introduced. IINM the post potent mini missile system only fire 9 (single system) or 12 (dual) in a volley. This was maintained in RTII: Sentinels in 1E. It wasn't until BK6r and BK8 in 1E that it was even possible to get above 12, and that was done via multiple systems working together. Out of the entire 1E Line (all 14 books IINM) there are only a total of ~19 weapons that even use Mini Missiles (this does not count copy and pastes between BK5 to Sentinels).

In terms of things above Mini Missiles, like Short Range Missiles. Yes the Veritech Alpha's MM-60 could fire off 60 Short Range Missiles at once, the Vindicator could top that with 70, one of the jets in the 1E Main book could come close with 54, and the Armored Battloid could also hit 70 (IIRC) by emptying its entire payload in a single volley. A few of the Palladium Creation Prototypes might even be in this range or top it. Medium and Long Range Missiles, large volleys like this are the purview of capital ships and do so by combining fire from multiple launchers.

In all of Rifts there is over 201 mini missile weapon systems (man usable and built-in), and only 33 of those 201 (~16.5%) get into double digit volleys (the largest is 32, but there are only 2 examples). Now that is not looking at every Rifts Book either (don't have some of the more recent stuff, or even a complete collection), so something might exist that goes higher or to skewer the numbers more.

In all likelihood the 60 isn't intended as a "hard" cut off number in the text as I read it more as a "soft" number given the preceding text before it states "any quantity" so it reads like "3 to [for example] 60".

[Axelmania]

I'm perplexed as to how you counted the 201, LOL. Thinking back, I think the one who could shoot the most missiles in main book was the Behemoth Explorer. Not sure when he was surpassed.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm perplexed as to how you counted the 201, LOL. Thinking back, I think the one who could shoot the most missiles in main book was the Behemoth Explorer. Not sure when he was surpassed.

Queried a Database. And the 201 is just what's in the database, it doesn't count books I don't have, nor the ones I haven't yet put in that I have access to for what ever reason.