Soo.. about explosions (other than missiles)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

the recent thread about Grenades had me reading the grenade descriptions again...

and i realized that they read differently than missiles. Most grenades read (something along the lines of) "does X damage to Y radius".

This has always given me the impression that the damage listed is to applied to everyone, not cut in half, but i always went with the "known" rule that all explosives only deal that damage on a direct hit, and blast radius is halved..

except as far as i can tell, the rules dont actually say that. Anywhere.

Now, i am perfectly willing to believe i simply missed it, as it is quite easy to do even if you are looking for it...

but going through RUE, RMB, and the GMG....

i can find nothing that says explosions do half damage to the blast radius. Only missiles say this.

Did i miss this somewhere? Im certainly open to the idea that i did. If there is a citation about explosions other than missiles, can someone find it?

[Killer Cyborg]

I thought it was a blanked rule for “explosives.”

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

As far as i can tell, having just re-read the RUE combat section again back and forth, there are no rules about explosives in general of any kind.

The only reference to Blast Radii, at all, is under Missiles and clearly says 'Missile Blast Radius', and says "the specific target of the Missile takes FULL DAMAGE" (bold mine).

Nadda about grenades or other explosives anywhere i can find.

Thats why i was curious. I, too, always assumed that the missile rules just applied to all explosives, even though the wording on grenades has always been slightly different.

I never looked until that grenade thread came up.

And... yeah. I cant find anything. I dont have all my books to hand, but ive gone back through both RMBs entire combat section and RUEs entire combat section. Nothin.

Im fully prepared to believe there IS such a rule, and that it's just somewhere weird or in a book im not currently referencing or something. Thus the question. More eyeballs on the situation.

[Blue_Lion]

The rules for radius damage clearly state they cover grenades and missiles.

Radius Damage. As noted previously, everyone and everything else in the blast radius suffers half damage. So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5D6 M.D. inflicts the full 5D6 M.D. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion.

(emphasis mine)
So you where using a correct rule half damage to those in the blast radius.

Now then if it applies to mines, spells and other explosives would be a GM call as it does not specifically address them. But they are blast radius doing radius damage so it would be logical.

I think the reason he did not find the rule may be because he searched a PDF copy of the book from drive through rpg with ctrl f -blast radi. While that is a fast way to find what you are looking for if the wording does not match your search it will not show up as was the case here.

(Has stated colonel Tetsuya he has me on ignore so may not see this.)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The rules for radius damage clearly state they cover grenades and missiles.

Radius Damage. As noted previously, everyone and everything else in the blast radius suffers half damage. So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5D6 M.D. inflicts the full 5D6 M.D. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion.

(emphasis mine)
So you where using a correct rule half damage to those in the blast radius.

Now then if it applies to mines, spells and other explosives would be a GM call as it does not specifically address them. But they are blast radius doing radius damage so it would be logical.

I think the reason he did not find the rule may be because he searched a PDF copy of the book from drive through rpg with ctrl f -blast radi. While that is a fast way to find what you are looking for if the wording does not match your search it will not show up as was the case here.

(Has stated colonel Tetsuya he has me on ignore so may not see this.)

No, just missed the one you spotted. My initial quote is actually from the next page. (Top of 364) Good catch... So far that appears to be the ONLY reference that includes grenades.

[Blue_Lion]

The rules for radius damage clearly state they cover grenades and missiles.

Radius Damage. As noted previously, everyone and everything else in the blast radius suffers half damage. So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5D6 M.D. inflicts the full 5D6 M.D. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion.

(emphasis mine)
So you where using a correct rule half damage to those in the blast radius.

Now then if it applies to mines, spells and other explosives would be a GM call as it does not specifically address them. But they are blast radius doing radius damage so it would be logical.

I think the reason he did not find the rule may be because he searched a PDF copy of the book from drive through rpg with ctrl f -blast radi. While that is a fast way to find what you are looking for if the wording does not match your search it will not show up as was the case here.

(Has stated colonel Tetsuya he has me on ignore so may not see this.)

No, just missed the one you spotted. My initial quote is actually from the next page. (Top of 364) Good catch... So far that appears to be the ONLY reference that includes grenades.

page 362 apears worded starts off as a general statement on blast radius.-it does use missile strike in its example.(so that may be why killer cyborg thought there was a blanket rule.)
Blast radius or near misses. Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage.

Grenades are called out in the direct hit description on page 363 but not the ones on page 362 or 364.

I never noticed before the wrote rules for blast radius on three consecutive pages slightly difrent each time. That seams really bad writing that would cause confustion.

[Killer Cyborg]

The rules for radius damage clearly state they cover grenades and missiles.

Radius Damage. As noted previously, everyone and everything else in the blast radius suffers half damage. So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5D6 M.D. inflicts the full 5D6 M.D. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion.

(emphasis mine)
So you where using a correct rule half damage to those in the blast radius.

Now then if it applies to mines, spells and other explosives would be a GM call as it does not specifically address them. But they are blast radius doing radius damage so it would be logical.

I think the reason he did not find the rule may be because he searched a PDF copy of the book from drive through rpg with ctrl f -blast radi. While that is a fast way to find what you are looking for if the wording does not match your search it will not show up as was the case here.

(Has stated colonel Tetsuya he has me on ignore so may not see this.)

No, just missed the one you spotted. My initial quote is actually from the next page. (Top of 364) Good catch... So far that appears to be the ONLY reference that includes grenades.

page 362 apears worded starts off as a general statement on blast radius.-it does use missile strike in its example.(so that may be why killer cyborg thought there was a blanket rule.)
Blast radius or near misses. Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage.

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

I think you're right about the rules on RUE 362 & 363: they're rules for a Blast Radius, not for missiles specifically.
So they apply as a default to anything with a blast radius.
The rule itself would be "Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage."
This rule is found under the Missile Combat heading... but Palladium frequently posts global rules in specific sections.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

Unfortunately, "Palladium rules in general" dont apply to Rifts. The rules in the Rifts RPG apply to Rifts. And (ill have to see if my Heroes Unlimited Revised & 2nd Ed, N&SS Revised, and BTS are handy enough to check, a lot of stuff is still in boxes since we've been remodeling and moving stuff around)... im not entirely certain any such rule is actually in those games either.

I think you're right about the rules on RUE 362 & 363: they're rules for a Blast Radius, not for missiles specifically.

363 ill grant you, because it clearly says "so a grenade or mini-missile" - meaning both. 362? No way. Its not even fudgeable. Its DIRECTLY under the heading "Damage from Missile Strike". Why on earth would you assume "this section specifically about missile strikes must also mean all other explosions?".

So they apply as a default to anything with a blast radius.

Uhh.. why? What part of "this section is about missile strikes" would lead you to EVER think "and obviously applies to all explosions"? That isn't remotely logical.

The rule itself would be "Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage."
This rule is found under the Missile Combat heading... but Palladium frequently posts global rules in specific sections.

Such as? And without the other things being covered also being named?

I mean, I'm not arguing for this because i like it - i'd MUCH rather see consistency in the rules (though honestly, i'd go the other way; there's no particularly good reason for explosions to do half damage to the radius, particularly since about 2/3 of the explosive types are expressly anti-infantry and meant to do maximum damage to everything in the explosion); and if we're talking about Kevin intending for all explosions to be that way...

sure thing. I can agree he probably intended that.

Which is why its so utterly frustrating and damnable that it isn't stated that way except in one of THREE different areas (within THREE PAGES!) describing how blast radius works.. and even in the one where it does specify something other than missiles, its only missiles and grenades. Not all explosions.

I mean, hell, i played the same way im sure everyone else did, assuming it meant all explosions... when it never said that. (RMB has even less to say on the topic; the passage Blue found on 363 doesn't have an analog in RMB). If you'd ever asked, i would have SURELY told you that of course that is a rule....

even though it doesn't appear to have been until RUE, and then only because part of the missile combat section was replaced with a copypasta from another line (because the two that bracket it clearly refer to only missiles).

[Killer Cyborg]

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

Unfortunately, "Palladium rules in general" dont apply to Rifts. The rules in the Rifts RPG apply to Rifts.

Untrue.
It's a Megaversal system, and the rules of Rifts often refer to the other game settings.
Moreover, the rules of Rifts are based on the rules for the other game settings, and are sometimes cut-and-pasted leaving out crucial information that can only be found in these other systems.

And (ill have to see if my Heroes Unlimited Revised & 2nd Ed, N&SS Revised, and BTS are handy enough to check, a lot of stuff is still in boxes since we've been remodeling and moving stuff around)... im not entirely certain any such rule is actually in those games either.

Many of the rules are in multiple games, in various forms.
But here's what it says on N&S 135
Explosives
This category includes grenade launchers, hand grenades, satchel charges, and so forth. The targe person or item takes full damage. Everyone else who is in the blast radius of an explosive takes hald damage and can Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact.

I think you're right about the rules on RUE 362 & 363: they're rules for a Blast Radius, not for missiles specifically.

363 ill grant you, because it clearly says "so a grenade or mini-missile" - meaning both. 362? No way. Its not even fudgeable. Its DIRECTLY under the heading "Damage from Missile Strike". Why on earth would you assume "this section specifically about missile strikes must also mean all other explosions?".

As I've already said: Palladium often includes global rules in specific sections.
Also, it would be rather silly for Palladium to treat explosive damages and blast radii one way in the case of grenades, rockets, and other explosives, and to treat things significantly different with missiles. An explosion is an explosion.
Also, there's stuff like the N&S rule that I quoted above.

Also, the rule is "getting caught in a blast radius does half damage," NOT "getting caught in a blast radius of a missile does half damage. The rule MIGHT be inferred to apply only to missiles, but it never states that it ONLY applies to missiles. The fact that the rule is in the Missile Combat section means that it DOES apply to missile, but not necessarily that it applies exclusively to missiles.
Look at the top of p. 362 for another easy example of this:
Under the heading of Gun Terms, there are various sub-headings that have definitions:
Damage
Damage to Weapons
Range
Main Body
Payload
Yet not one of those definitions applies exclusively to "Guns."
Weapon damage is weapon damage.
Damage to weapons is damage to weapons, and the rules there apply to more than just guns.
Same with range: the rules there describe more than just how range works for guns alone, and explain how range works for weapons in general.
Same with "main body." There isn't ONE "main body" when dealing with guns, and another "main body" when dealing with non-gun weapons. There's only one rule, and even though the rule is present in the Gun Terms section, the term is not exclusive to gun situations.
Same again with "Payload." It's in "Gun Terms," but it means the same thing even when it's not in a gun.

There is a firm pattern established on this page, and deciding that the definition & rules for "Blast Radius" applies to ONLY missiles because it's under the Missile heading goes directly against the pattern.
If you keep reading after the Blast radius or near misses section, you'll notice that the next section is Roll with impact to reduce damage, and that this section follows the same pattern as before the Blast Radius section: it describes global rules that apply to more than just missiles, even though it's still in the "Missile Combat" and "Damage from Missile Strike" headings.

The rule itself would be "Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage."
This rule is found under the Missile Combat heading... but Palladium frequently posts global rules in specific sections.

Such as? And without the other things being covered also being named?

In addition to the stuff I just listed:
-The global rules for Horror Factor is in the Psychic Combat section, for example, even though the rules there don't apply only to Psychic Combat.
-Perception Rolls are also under the Psychic Combat section. Again, these are global rules that are under a limited heading that doesn't restrict them to that heading (i.e., psychic combat).
-Blindness penalties are under the heading "Combat Terms & Moves," even though blindness can occur outside of combat.
-Falling Damage is listed under "Combat Terms & Moves," but these are the global rules for falling damage, NOT rules for falling damage that apply exclusively in Combat.
-The rules for being intoxicated are listed under the Insanity section, even though one need not be insane for the intoxication penalties to apply. They're also listed under "addiction," even though one need not be addicted for the rules to apply.

You know... If you need even more examples of global rules being stuck under limited specific headings in Rifts rules, it might be easiest for you to just start a new Topic on this specifically.
There are enough examples to make an entire conversation.

I mean, I'm not arguing for this because i like it - i'd MUCH rather see consistency in the rules (though honestly, i'd go the other way; there's no particularly good reason for explosions to do half damage to the radius, particularly since about 2/3 of the explosive types are expressly anti-infantry and meant to do maximum damage to everything in the explosion); and if we're talking about Kevin intending for all explosions to be that way...

sure thing. I can agree he probably intended that.

Which is why its so utterly frustrating and damnable that it isn't stated that way except in one of THREE different areas (within THREE PAGES!) describing how blast radius works.. and even in the one where it does specify something other than missiles, its only missiles and grenades. Not all explosions.

Palladium is neither good at explaining rules clearly, nor at understanding why clear explanations might be necessary or desirable.
Yes, this can be frustrating.

It's hardly NEW, though. They've always been this way.

[guardiandashi]

I am not going to claim I am the best writer, but I really think whoever organizes and finishes (especially editing) of the books especially core books really needs a technical writing course.

I am not saying technical writing is the best (only) way to do it, but I think that at least that kind of writing layout and organization makes a lot of sense.
IE have a introduction section, then a game universe section, then a rules and terms section, then specific combat sections, then .....

[Blue_Lion]

The rules for radius damage clearly state they cover grenades and missiles.

Radius Damage. As noted previously, everyone and everything else in the blast radius suffers half damage. So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5D6 M.D. inflicts the full 5D6 M.D. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion.

(emphasis mine)
So you where using a correct rule half damage to those in the blast radius.

Now then if it applies to mines, spells and other explosives would be a GM call as it does not specifically address them. But they are blast radius doing radius damage so it would be logical.

I think the reason he did not find the rule may be because he searched a PDF copy of the book from drive through rpg with ctrl f -blast radi. While that is a fast way to find what you are looking for if the wording does not match your search it will not show up as was the case here.

(Has stated colonel Tetsuya he has me on ignore so may not see this.)

No, just missed the one you spotted. My initial quote is actually from the next page. (Top of 364) Good catch... So far that appears to be the ONLY reference that includes grenades.

Sorry if you feel it was an attack I was looking for a feasable reason you missed it, that did not look like a deliberate misinformation. (Honestly I did not spot it I knew it was there from other debates. I just went to the section and copied what it said.)

Honestly story wise PB can come up with good ideas. (they can also come up with some horible things) But layouts of rules and technical information is in need of serrious help. Heck the only place I know they have rules for how cover works is in the adventrue ideas in Rifts Mecenaries. RUE combat rules shows horible space waste in redunancy. They try to make all there games megaversaly compatable but for some reason they treat the some things difrently in diffrent games.

Honestly I think they could benifit from a well written(in a technical style) core rule book for the megaversal system. (that could open up the option for slimed down setting core books that just cover the stuff uniquick to the setting, for those with the the core rule book or a setting book with it and on a budget.)

[Shark_Force]

I am not going to claim I am the best writer, but I really think whoever organizes and finishes (especially editing) of the books especially core books really needs a technical writing course.

I am not saying technical writing is the best (only) way to do it, but I think that at least that kind of writing layout and organization makes a lot of sense.
IE have a introduction section, then a game universe section, then a rules and terms section, then specific combat sections, then .....

RPG writing is a lot of technical writing. of course it would be better if the author had a good understanding of technical writing, because major portions of the book are going to be essentially instructions for playing the game... and writing instructions is exactly the sort of thing technical writing is about.

but the main writer/editor has been doing things this way for decades and frankly is unlikely to go back to school at this point (and even if he did, that would leave us with decades worth of books that don't have principles of technical writing used, and then some new books that wouldn't fit with the old books), and i'm fairly sure the rest of the writers are freelancers who basically write books in their spare time, so it's pretty unlikely for them to take a full school program to support what is essentially a hobby.

it would have been nice if somewhere along the way, palladium had picked up a technical writer to handle things like editing, layout, etc, and we had decades worth of books with just as much cool stuff, but better organized and with fewer contradictions... but at this point, well, that's just palladium, unfortunately. it's unlikely to change unless someone else takes over the company and decides to rewrite everything, which is unfortunately unlikely to be a profitable venture (i mean, i'd love it if all the old PB stuff that i had bought got a facelift, but i'm probably not going to buy everything a second time).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

Unfortunately, "Palladium rules in general" dont apply to Rifts. The rules in the Rifts RPG apply to Rifts.

Untrue.
It's a Megaversal system, and the rules of Rifts often refer to the other game settings.
Moreover, the rules of Rifts are based on the rules for the other game settings, and are sometimes cut-and-pasted leaving out crucial information that can only be found in these other systems.

And we're done having a conversation.

This isn't true. Its provably untrue, and ive already proven it before in the past.

Kevin can say "its a Megaversal system", but when the games are outright incompatible (as they are), it means he is incorrect.

That makes you incorrect too.

You cant be like "well to play the Rifts RPG, you need to own Heroes Unlimited and Ninjas and Superspies and Beyond The SUpernatural, as well, so you know all the 'general rules' that somehow apply to this game even though they arent in this game".

Thats crap, you know its crap, and at this point, you're either taking the **** or deliberately being an ass. Either way, we're done. You're not interested in having a conversation that involves logic, or the rules of grammar or sentence structure, how subjects are referred to.. nothing.

Bye.

[Killer Cyborg]

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

Unfortunately, "Palladium rules in general" dont apply to Rifts. The rules in the Rifts RPG apply to Rifts.

Untrue.
It's a Megaversal system, and the rules of Rifts often refer to the other game settings.
Moreover, the rules of Rifts are based on the rules for the other game settings, and are sometimes cut-and-pasted leaving out crucial information that can only be found in these other systems.

And we're done having a conversation.

This isn't true. Its provably untrue, and ive already proven it before in the past.

Nah.
But it's interesting that you claim that you have.

Kevin can say "its a Megaversal system", but when the games are outright incompatible (as they are), it means he is incorrect.

Kev made up the term "megaversal system," so it's pretty funny to claim that he's using the word wrong.
It can mean whatever he wants it to mean; it's his term.

You cant be like "well to play the Rifts RPG, you need to own Heroes Unlimited and Ninjas and Superspies and Beyond The SUpernatural, as well, so you know all the 'general rules' that somehow apply to this game even though they arent in this game".

Maybe I "can't be" like that, or maybe I can.
But I'm not like that, so I think discussing that issue is a tangent.

You don't need anything to play Rifts other than the main book, paper, dice, and an imagination!
(and really not even all of that).

You DO need other books if you want to understand the rules, but understanding the rules has never been a necessary component to playing Palladium's system.
It's pretty much a "read the book, get the gist, and wing it from there" kind of thing, and Kevin seems perpetually boggled that so many of us put so much effort into trying to decipher what the actual rules ARE.

Thats crap, you know its crap, and at this point, you're either taking the **** or deliberately being an ass. Either way, we're done. You're not interested in having a conversation that involves logic, or the rules of grammar or sentence structure, how subjects are referred to.. nothing.

Bye.

Whatever, man.

[Blue_Lion]

Thats crap, you know its crap, and at this point, you're either taking the **** or deliberately being an ass. Either way, we're done. You're not interested in having a conversation that involves logic, or the rules of grammar or sentence structure, how subjects are referred to.. nothing.

Bye.

Careful that sounds allot like a personal attack.

[Warshield73]

It's pretty much a "read the book, get the gist, and wing it from there" kind of thing, and Kevin seems perpetually boggled that so many of us put so much effort into trying to decipher what the actual rules ARE.

You just described why I love the Palladium system, and you did it better then I ever have.

As for being a Megaversal system, there are enough rules in common that if you can play one game you can play them all. If they ever get the chance to do a 2.0 it would be great if they could get them all in line.

[eliakon]

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

Unfortunately, "Palladium rules in general" dont apply to Rifts. The rules in the Rifts RPG apply to Rifts.

Untrue.
It's a Megaversal system, and the rules of Rifts often refer to the other game settings.
Moreover, the rules of Rifts are based on the rules for the other game settings, and are sometimes cut-and-pasted leaving out crucial information that can only be found in these other systems.

Which doesn't change the fact that each game is its own game and has its own rules system that is different in nuance from the others.
There are some general 'guide lines' that are basically the same from game to game... but the exact rules change, which means that there aren't a lot of actual 'Palladium rules in general', just some rules that are often used in two or more different games.
We see this over an over again with things like the fact: that some skills work differently in different games; or certain spells have different effects/costs in different games; or how you can use PP for guns in some games but not others; ad infinitum
As a result each game line is its own game, with some games having rules for converting material from one game to another. Which is itself a sign that they are different games because if they were the same then you wouldn't be converting anything... you would simply be using the material as is.

[Killer Cyborg]

I wasn't commenting on RUE rules specifically, but Palladium rules in general.

Unfortunately, "Palladium rules in general" dont apply to Rifts. The rules in the Rifts RPG apply to Rifts.

Untrue.
It's a Megaversal system, and the rules of Rifts often refer to the other game settings.
Moreover, the rules of Rifts are based on the rules for the other game settings, and are sometimes cut-and-pasted leaving out crucial information that can only be found in these other systems.

Which doesn't change the fact that each game is its own game and has its own rules system that is different in nuance from the others.

It doesn't need to change that fact.
For one thing, your statement as worded is not actually a fact.

Each game is its own game... kind of. With stuff like Rifts: Chaos Earth, or Rifts: Manhunter, or things get a bit murky. Overall though, for the most part, each game IS its own game.
Each game does NOT have its own rules.
Each game does NOT have its own rules system.
Each game uses the Megaversal System, which sometimes has variations and differences from game to game, or from setting to setting.

Remember The D20 System?
That was one system, like the Megaversal System. And like the Megaversal System, the D20 System covers any number of games and/or game settings, and there are any number of rule differences or changes from game to game or from setting to setting.
None of that means that it's not just one system. That's not how systems work.

There are some general 'guide lines' that are basically the same from game to game... but the exact rules change, which means that there aren't a lot of actual 'Palladium rules in general', just some rules that are often used in two or more different games.

If you want to claim that there are more rule differences between any two Megaversal games than there are similarities and shared rules, I'd love to see some support for that claim.
If you're not claiming that there are more rule differences than there are similarities, then guess what?
Then you're not talking about "some guidelines" that are "basically" the same from game to game; you're talking about a core set of rules that are fundamentally the same from game to game.

We see this over an over again with things like the fact: that some skills work differently in different games; or certain spells have different effects/costs in different games; or how you can use PP for guns in some games but not others; ad infinitum

No, definitely NOT ad infinitum.
It's extremely ad limitum.

As a result each game line is its own game, with some games having rules for converting material from one game to another. Which is itself a sign that they are different games because if they were the same then you wouldn't be converting anything... you would simply be using the material as is.

Nobody's saying that the different games aren't different games.
The issue is whether they use the same system, and to what degree.