Stupid Missile... rules

[Zer0 Kay]

If RT's guided missiles are impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more why are Rift's dumb missiles impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more? A dumb missile should be nothing more than a rocket and a volley of rockets are pretty much a self propelled salvo of artillery shells. So then a salvo of 3 or more artillery rounds should be impossible to dodge. Seeing as how the blast radius seems to have nothing to do with it since every missile plasma to armor piercing get it. So then a burst of three grenades, oh wait blast radius doesnt matter, so a 3 round burst from a gun shouldn't miss.

Why are both guided and unguided missiles of any type impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more? What is it that makes it undodgeable?

[Alrik Vas]

Instead of coming up with a convoluted reply as to why it could be possible (that would likely be based on shaky logic anyway), I'll just go with bad editing, worse forethought and no attention to detail.

It seems to be a lot of Palladium's issue.

I advise changing it until it does what you want it to.

[Killer Cyborg]

Iirc, it’s still 4+ GUIDED missiles in RUE.

[glitterboy2098]

RUE just says "missiles" and makes no distinction between guided and unguided on pg 364 where the dodging missiles rules are.

further, i have yet to be able to find a place in the RMB or GMG where those copies of the combat rules specify guided vs unguided.. it has always (AFAICT) been just "missiles"

[Proseksword]

1 - it's 4 or more missiles
2 - "unguided" missiles act like guided ones (5+ to hit instead of 8+ like for other weapons, no range penalties, roll to strike w/o skill bonuses)
3 - Presumably because at 4+ missiles any way you move you would be moving into a missile, thus failing to dodge
4 - It's Palladium, the rules really aren't that well defined or thought out. Mr. Siembieda will just tell you to house-rule it to your pleasure anyway.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE just says "missiles" and makes no distinction between guided and unguided on pg 364 where the dodging missiles rules are.

further, i have yet to be able to find a place in the RMB or GMG where those copies of the combat rules specify guided vs unguided.. it has always (AFAICT) been just "missiles"

By my memory, the rule is something like “while it is possible to dodge one, two, or even three guided missiles, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more.”

Edit:
I was close!
RUE 364
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two and even three guided missiles. The dodge rules are the same as always. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously

Nets out as I said.

[guardiandashi]

And now you see why I think the retcon making the vast majority of missiles unguided in RUE was stupid.

note I am not saying having guided and unguided versions of missiles, is a problem, but the core missile rules are IMO all built around the idea that ALL missiles are guided (unless specifically stated otherwise) and when someone changed that they didn't consider (or realize) just how much it messes with the RAW

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I always found it stupid because the basic behaviour of guided missiles in Rifts is technology we had in the late 60s, much less actual High-tech guided missiles.

Why every missile in Rifts wouldn't have basic guidance, i have no idea.

[Alrik Vas]

I think it's likely they wanted missiles to fly straight, as Rifts isn't as much Robotech with high-maneuvering missiles.

Though that's just supposition on my part.

So they decided, with their basic knowledge (realistic/up to date, or not) that this is how they should define it.

And Mr. Siembieda likely would tell you to house rule it if you care enough.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

nd Mr. Siembieda likely would tell you to house rule it if you care enough.

Which is a giant cop-out and at this point equates to just writing our own system.

At some point, Palladium has to be taken to task for the the flaws in its system, which are so profound and prolific as to make the system nearly unplayable.

[Proseksword]

Which is a giant cop-out and at this point equates to just writing our own system.

At some point, Palladium has to be taken to task for the the flaws in its system, which are so profound and prolific as to make the system nearly unplayable.

I disagree - the rules system, such as it is, is simple, straight-forward, & encourages both quick resolution & GM arbitration. I dare say I prefer Palladium's rules to most other RPGs because they are simple, easy to memorize & render rules-lawyering pointless. Inconsistency in the application of modifiers from O.C.C.s, R.C.C.s, equipment & spell effects is a far larger issue than the core combat rules themselves. Rather than new rules, I'd much rather have an updated GM's Guide type series of books that would bring all the various modifiers scattered across 50+ publications in alignment, but that's clearly a pipe dream!

[Blue_Lion]

RUE just says "missiles" and makes no distinction between guided and unguided on pg 364 where the dodging missiles rules are.

further, i have yet to be able to find a place in the RMB or GMG where those copies of the combat rules specify guided vs unguided.. it has always (AFAICT) been just "missiles"

By my memory, the rule is something like “while it is possible to dodge one, two, or even three guided missiles, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more.”

As written it clearly implies it is four guided missiles but never says they need to be guided. So it a case of bad editing where what is writen departs from an intent that might seam obvious.

[glitterboy2098]

RUE just says "missiles" and makes no distinction between guided and unguided on pg 364 where the dodging missiles rules are.

further, i have yet to be able to find a place in the RMB or GMG where those copies of the combat rules specify guided vs unguided.. it has always (AFAICT) been just "missiles"

By my memory, the rule is something like “while it is possible to dodge one, two, or even three guided missiles, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more.”

RUE pg 364: "however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously"
no mention of guided.

the RMB, in every printing i've seen, has the exact same wording as RUE regarding dodging, just on pg 41 under "dodging guided missiles"
so yes, it says that you can dodge up to 3 guided missiles, but the next line in the RMB is "however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously", making no distinction between guided and non-guided. which means that as far as dodging goes, even under the RMB rules, it doesn't matter whether the missiles are guided or not, you can't dodge more than three.

the confusion on this issue is probably why the RUE edition of the rules dropped reference to guided missiles in the dodging missiles section entirely.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE just says "missiles" and makes no distinction between guided and unguided on pg 364 where the dodging missiles rules are.

further, i have yet to be able to find a place in the RMB or GMG where those copies of the combat rules specify guided vs unguided.. it has always (AFAICT) been just "missiles"

By my memory, the rule is something like “while it is possible to dodge one, two, or even three guided missiles, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more.”

RUE pg 364: "however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously"
no mention of guided.

the RMB, in every printing i've seen, has the exact same wording as RUE regarding dodging, just on pg 41 under "dodging guided missiles"
so yes, it says that you can dodge up to 3 guided missiles, but the next line in the RMB is "however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously", making no distinction between guided and non-guided. which means that as far as dodging goes, even under the RMB rules, it doesn't matter whether the missiles are guided or not, you can't dodge more than three.

Incorrect.
The distinction is made in the first sentence, when it specifies that it's talking about dodging guided missiles.
That's the context for the paragraph. While it might have been less confusing if they'd specified "guided missiles" a second time, it's not necessary: meaning was established.
If the latter sentence that you quoted was referring to both guided and unguided missiles, then the use of the word "Guided" earlier would be not only unnecessary, but actually nonsensical.

The first sentence sets the context for the paragraph, and that context is guided missiles.

Now, pre-RUE this wasn't really an issue because all missiles were assumed to be guided by default.
The problem comes in with RUE's inexplicable decision to retcon the game to where missiles are unguided by default.
In fact, that's probably one reason for the phrasing of the sentence you quoted: "missiles" and "guided missiles" were at the time the same thing, as "Mini-Missiles" were "bazooka-style rockets.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the idea behind making most missile unguided is weapon manufactures in a apocalypse skimping on electronics when they could. Not a lack of tech, but people being cheep, as well as ensuring maximum capability.(less risk of incompatible guidance with the launcher.)

[Zer0 Kay]

RUE just says "missiles" and makes no distinction between guided and unguided on pg 364 where the dodging missiles rules are.

further, i have yet to be able to find a place in the RMB or GMG where those copies of the combat rules specify guided vs unguided.. it has always (AFAICT) been just "missiles"

By my memory, the rule is something like “while it is possible to dodge one, two, or even three guided missiles, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more.”

Edit:
I was close!
RUE 364
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two and even three guided missiles. The dodge rules are the same as always. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously

Nets out as I said.

Ah right there if that is a direct quote... it s as yes guided.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think it's likely they wanted missiles to fly straight, as Rifts isn't as much Robotech with high-maneuvering missiles.

Though that's just supposition on my part.

So they decided, with their basic knowledge (realistic/up to date, or not) that this is how they should define it.

And Mr. Siembieda likely would tell you to house rule it if you care enough.

Modern missiles are guided and dont fly like RT drunk missiles.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the idea behind making most missile unguided is weapon manufactures in a apocalypse skimping on electronics when they could. Not a lack of tech, but people being cheep, as well as ensuring maximum capability.(less risk of incompatible guidance with the launcher.)

I find zero plausibility in the notion that Palladium put that much in-story thought behind the decision.

[ShadowLogan]

If RT's guided missiles are impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more why are Rift's dumb missiles impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more? A dumb missile should be nothing more than a rocket and a volley of rockets are pretty much a self propelled salvo of artillery shells. So then a salvo of 3 or more artillery rounds should be impossible to dodge. Seeing as how the blast radius seems to have nothing to do with it since every missile plasma to armor piercing get it. So then a burst of three grenades, oh wait blast radius doesnt matter, so a 3 round burst from a gun shouldn't miss.

Why are both guided and unguided missiles of any type impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more? What is it that makes it undodgeable?

Actually Blast Radius can matter, potentially requiring a 2nd Dodge roll (RUE pg364 in the "Dodging Missiles" section).

As for why a salvo of 4+ missiles is impossible to dodge, even if unguided:
-You can technically "dodge" 4 or more missiles by successfully attacking them (both use an attack action and the end result is the same, the only real difference is applicable bonuses). There are a few other options that amount to a "dodge" that exist megaversally/in-setting (Evasive Action, Chaff/Flare, Wild Weasel's Black Box can jam mini-missiles which means it would work with other "unguided" types)
-it isn't like PB rules at times say "impossible", but really mean "-10" (not saying this is one of those cases, but if you're looking for a house rule with some justification)
-the volley of missiles is probably less of a "single lane road" like a burst from a gun and more like "multi-lane road" which would require the dodger to travel much farther to sucessfully evade (recall that the rules for simplicity assume all hit for damage, unlike guns and bursts, not saying its "fair", but it is how the rules work)
-I suppose that you could Dodge some of the 4+ missiles, but a successful dodge attempt would only reduce the number of incoming missiles by 3 (this would be a house rule as this isn't stated to be possible, but it also doesn't say you can't)

I think the idea behind making most missile unguided is weapon manufactures in a apocalypse skimping on electronics when they could. Not a lack of tech, but people being cheep, as well as ensuring maximum capability.(less risk of incompatible guidance with the launcher.)

Looking at the Wild Weasel SAMAS and its Black Box in WB14 (IINM Archie3 has the Shemarrians using it in one of their models in Shem Nation) on pg186 under "Full Jamming Suite", second paragraph discusses "jam incoming missiles". The applicable text is at the bottom of the paragraph "Note that this jamming ability applies to 'smart bomb' as well as mini-missiles and other types of guided missiles."

How can it possibly "jam" an unguided system, this suggests that maybe all the unguided missiles are actually using something like laser guidance (and all Robots and Power Armor have a Laser Targeting System), so maybe what PB really means by "guidance" is "self-guidance".

[Zer0 Kay]

If RT's guided missiles are impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more why are Rift's dumb missiles impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more? A dumb missile should be nothing more than a rocket and a volley of rockets are pretty much a self propelled salvo of artillery shells. So then a salvo of 3 or more artillery rounds should be impossible to dodge. Seeing as how the blast radius seems to have nothing to do with it since every missile plasma to armor piercing get it. So then a burst of three grenades, oh wait blast radius doesnt matter, so a 3 round burst from a gun shouldn't miss.

Why are both guided and unguided missiles of any type impossible to dodge in volleys of 3 or more? What is it that makes it undodgeable?

Actually Blast Radius can matter, potentially requiring a 2nd Dodge roll (RUE pg364 in the "Dodging Missiles" section).

As for why a salvo of 4+ missiles is impossible to dodge, even if unguided:
-You can technically "dodge" 4 or more missiles by successfully attacking them (both use an attack action and the end result is the same, the only real difference is applicable bonuses). There are a few other options that amount to a "dodge" that exist megaversally/in-setting (Evasive Action, Chaff/Flare, Wild Weasel's Black Box can jam mini-missiles which means it would work with other "unguided" types)
-it isn't like PB rules at times say "impossible", but really mean "-10" (not saying this is one of those cases, but if you're looking for a house rule with some justification)
-the volley of missiles is probably less of a "single lane road" like a burst from a gun and more like "multi-lane road" which would require the dodger to travel much farther to sucessfully evade (recall that the rules for simplicity assume all hit for damage, unlike guns and bursts, not saying its "fair", but it is how the rules work)
-I suppose that you could Dodge some of the 4+ missiles, but a successful dodge attempt would only reduce the number of incoming missiles by 3 (this would be a house rule as this isn't stated to be possible, but it also doesn't say you can't)

I think the idea behind making most missile unguided is weapon manufactures in a apocalypse skimping on electronics when they could. Not a lack of tech, but people being cheep, as well as ensuring maximum capability.(less risk of incompatible guidance with the launcher.)

Looking at the Wild Weasel SAMAS and its Black Box in WB14 (IINM Archie3 has the Shemarrians using it in one of their models in Shem Nation) on pg186 under "Full Jamming Suite", second paragraph discusses "jam incoming missiles". The applicable text is at the bottom of the paragraph "Note that this jamming ability applies to 'smart bomb' as well as mini-missiles and other types of guided missiles."

How can it possibly "jam" an unguided system, this suggests that maybe all the unguided missiles are actually using something like laser guidance (and all Robots and Power Armor have a Laser Targeting System), so maybe what PB really means by "guidance" is "self-guidance".

That's all good but if you are unable to dodge 4+ missiles why are we able to dodge a barrage of 4 artillery shells or grenades or bullets

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not sure you have to deal with 4 simultaneously launched artillery shells in Rifts (I know in RT/Macross2 it would be a potential issue), I can't think of anything in Rifts off hand that could do that (not saying something might not exist, just I can't think of it off hand or its part of Rifts I haven't seen before).

Grenades and Bullets. It should be noted though that Bursts with these weapons in actual practice if you look at damage range vs individual round x number fired, not all the rounds hit. Example: CS's CR-40 Railgun, one round does 1d4, a burst is 40 rounds, but only does 1d4x10. So either 75% of the round miss, or each round does minimum possible damage (CR-40 might not be the best example here, maybe some of the other CS Railguns might be better to illustrate but I don't remember any specifics off hand). This contrasts to a missile volley of say 4 Plasma SRMs, which do 1d6x10 individually and in the volley do 4d6x10.

When it comes to G&Bs you aren't really dodging the entire burst in actual practice, unlike missiles. That is all I can come up with atm, granted as the above example illustrates with even 25% of those rounds your still in "can't dodge territory" if it was a missile volley. Then again maybe the missile size might also factor in (wind, gravity) or even their powered nature (engines always on, where bullets/grenades essentially "coast").

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not sure you have to deal with 4 simultaneously launched artillery shells in Rifts (I know in RT/Macross2 it would be a potential issue), I can't think of anything in Rifts off hand that could do that (not saying something might not exist, just I can't think of it off hand or its part of Rifts I haven't seen before).

Grenades and Bullets. It should be noted though that Bursts with these weapons in actual practice if you look at damage range vs individual round x number fired, not all the rounds hit. Example: CS's CR-40 Railgun, one round does 1d4, a burst is 40 rounds, but only does 1d4x10. So either 75% of the round miss, or each round does minimum possible damage (CR-40 might not be the best example here, maybe some of the other CS Railguns might be better to illustrate but I don't remember any specifics off hand). This contrasts to a missile volley of say 4 Plasma SRMs, which do 1d6x10 individually and in the volley do 4d6x10.

When it comes to G&Bs you aren't really dodging the entire burst in actual practice, unlike missiles. That is all I can come up with atm, granted as the above example illustrates with even 25% of those rounds your still in "can't dodge territory" if it was a missile volley. Then again maybe the missile size might also factor in (wind, gravity) or even their powered nature (engines always on, where bullets/grenades essentially "coast").

There are multi barrel weapons that fire 4 or more shots at once. These weapons typically have a weapon damage that fallows the shot damage curve-some times simplified. However the rule as written does not address shots of 4 grenades, bullets or blasts at once, so would only apply if housed ruled to apply.


(the writer has made comments about accuracy of auto fire weapon bursts, being less accurate.)

[dreicunan]

Killer Cyborg nailed it. The rule about volleys of 4 or more,being undodgeable has always been about guided missle volleys, as the context makes clear in both the RMB and the RUE version of the statement (and in a section titled "Guided Missiles" in the RMB).

For some real fun, remember that those dumb-fired RMB era mini-missiles used to let you apply a bonus from a high PP to the strike roll as well as from the right WP. High PP characters shooting an unguided mini-missile could end up with a better chance to hit than using a guided version.

My guess about the retcon was that someone with KS's ear didn't like undodgeable missile volleys. By making guided missiles rare, undodgeable missile volleys become rare as well.

[Zer0 Kay]

Killer Cyborg nailed it. The rule about volleys of 4 or more,being undodgeable has always been about guided missle volleys, as the context makes clear in both the RMB and the RUE version of the statement (and in a section titled "Guided Missiles" in the RMB).

For some real fun, remember that those dumb-fired RMB era mini-missiles used to let you apply a bonus from a high PP to the strike roll as well as from the right WP. High PP characters shooting an unguided mini-missile could end up with a better chance to hit than using a guided version.

My guess about the retcon was that someone with KS's ear didn't like undodgeable missile volleys. By making guided missiles rare, undodgeable missile volleys become rare as well.

They should have just made guided missiles rare and stop calling unguided missiles, missiles. A missile has an engine, a warhead and a guidance system as missile in game refers to guided missile. A rocket is an engine and a warhead. If missile in game referred to projectiles (in order to make the claim of the missiles are unguided and therefore really rockets correct) then I can now purchase sling launched plasma missiles shaped like throwing stones or spear shaped fragmentation missiles or use a bow and arrow that launches multi-warheads as all of those weapons are missiles. Also by calling all the non-guided munitions rockets instead of missiles it would stop some of us from coming up with stuff like "well it just means that the missiles don't have on board guidance an use a passive sytem where it needs to be externally guided. Like TOW, or laser or passive radar.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm not sure you have to deal with 4 simultaneously launched artillery shells in Rifts (I know in RT/Macross2 it would be a potential issue), I can't think of anything in Rifts off hand that could do that (not saying something might not exist, just I can't think of it off hand or its part of Rifts I haven't seen before).

Grenades and Bullets. It should be noted though that Bursts with these weapons in actual practice if you look at damage range vs individual round x number fired, not all the rounds hit. Example: CS's CR-40 Railgun, one round does 1d4, a burst is 40 rounds, but only does 1d4x10. So either 75% of the round miss, or each round does minimum possible damage (CR-40 might not be the best example here, maybe some of the other CS Railguns might be better to illustrate but I don't remember any specifics off hand). This contrasts to a missile volley of say 4 Plasma SRMs, which do 1d6x10 individually and in the volley do 4d6x10.

When it comes to G&Bs you aren't really dodging the entire burst in actual practice, unlike missiles. That is all I can come up with atm, granted as the above example illustrates with even 25% of those rounds your still in "can't dodge territory" if it was a missile volley. Then again maybe the missile size might also factor in (wind, gravity) or even their powered nature (engines always on, where bullets/grenades essentially "coast").

The way volleys do damage is per GM I know many who figure out damage of a missile and multiply it by the number of missiles that were fired, in order to save time. As long as it is applied equally to players and NPCs I don't care. I'd definitely argue if players rolled individual damage while the GM got to multiply. It doesn't say in the rules that damage from a volley is rolled per missile.

Regardless of sources an artillery barrage is shot fired on the same location from multiple sources in multiple locations.

For G&Bs... yes you are. If you aren't then where is the partial burst dodged?

The only game I've played that handles any of this is Mekton where not all of a missile volley, a burst or even all of a shotguns bird-shot hits its target and it is all determined by the attack roll vs. the defense roll.

Now I'm thinking I need to run a Fuzion based Rifts. Hmm... new post idea.

[Blue_Lion]

Killer Cyborg nailed it. The rule about volleys of 4 or more,being undodgeable has always been about guided missle volleys, as the context makes clear in both the RMB and the RUE version of the statement (and in a section titled "Guided Missiles" in the RMB).

For some real fun, remember that those dumb-fired RMB era mini-missiles used to let you apply a bonus from a high PP to the strike roll as well as from the right WP. High PP characters shooting an unguided mini-missile could end up with a better chance to hit than using a guided version.

My guess about the retcon was that someone with KS's ear didn't like undodgeable missile volleys. By making guided missiles rare, undodgeable missile volleys become rare as well.

They should have just made guided missiles rare and stop calling unguided missiles, missiles. A missile has an engine, a warhead and a guidance system as missile in game refers to guided missile. A rocket is an engine and a warhead. If missile in game referred to projectiles (in order to make the claim of the missiles are unguided and therefore really rockets correct) then I can now purchase sling launched plasma missiles shaped like throwing stones or spear shaped fragmentation missiles or use a bow and arrow that launches multi-warheads as all of those weapons are missiles. Also by calling all the non-guided munitions rockets instead of missiles it would stop some of us from coming up with stuff like "well it just means that the missiles don't have on board guidance an use a passive sytem where it needs to be externally guided. Like TOW, or laser or passive radar.

Nice theory, however it does not match many definitions of the term missile.
Guided missile is defined in merrian webster as a missile whose course can be changed altered in flight.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... %20missile
Missile is defined as an object (or weapon) thrown or projected usually to strike something at a distance.
Examples are stones, artillery shells, bullets, and rockets.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/missile

So there use of the term missile does match the definition.


Basically what this means is you can not change the course of most missiles in flight making them unguided.
Guided missiles can change course in flight to hit the target and that is why they get a bonus.

Unguided missiles can get a bonus from systems in the launcher that plans the course prelaunch.
Mini-missiles use a weapon skill and are stated that they are basically rockets.


I should point out there are guided rockets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_At ... ded_Rocket

[ShadowLogan]

The way volleys do damage is per GM I know many who figure out damage of a missile and multiply it by the number of missiles that were fired, in order to save time. As long as it is applied equally to players and NPCs I don't care. I'd definitely argue if players rolled individual damage while the GM got to multiply. It doesn't say in the rules that damage from a volley is rolled per missile.

RMB pg41 "A volley of missiles inflicts full damage from each and every missile in the volley"

RUE pg32 "A volley of missiles inflicts full damage for each missile int the volley."

Both state you fire X number of missiles the damage is XdY dice. Now I can see saving time when you start getting into higher quantity volleys, but the rules do state XDY as opposed to DY*X (which is more in lines with bursts).

Regardless of sources an artillery barrage is shot fired on the same location from multiple sources in multiple locations.

While a barrage does function that way in the real world, game mechanically is it considered:
Volley/Burst, Simultaneous Attacks (like one of the PA in JU does to negate Auto-Dodge), or is each handled individually?

I can see handling it like Volley/Burst in certain circumstances (example RT/Mac2's Monster-type 'bots, or CS IAR-2 in Rifts), but if those circumstances aren't met (ex. several artillery pieces in MercOps, or several Naval Ships) it can become a bit more muddled because it can be considered all 3 (burst/volley to save time).

For G&Bs... yes you are. If you aren't then where is the partial burst dodged?

I think you are misunderstanding me, when it comes to gun bursts some of the rounds fired in the burst statistically already have missed you and we don't worry about them before the dodge is even rolled (in most cases). That means you only really need to dodge the remaining part of the burst.

Mechanically Palladium assumes that some of the rounds in a burst miss, but assumes that all missiles in a volley "hit". Lets remember that bullets tend to be kinetic imp actors and (Palladium Missiles) are basically explosive devices (as they all have a blast radius AFAIK). It could be that when a volley of missiles hits, it acts the same way as shooting down a missile volley with a successful roll (cause detonation to destroy the volley). Exploding bullets might qualify as "explosive device", but since you can't shoot them down they mechanically function as "bullets" and some are being assumed to miss.

[torjones]

Killer Cyborg nailed it. The rule about volleys of 4 or more, being undodgeable has always been about guided missle volleys, as the context makes clear in both the RMB and the RUE version of the statement (and in a section titled "Guided Missiles" in the RMB).

For some real fun, remember that those dumb-fired RMB era mini-missiles used to let you apply a bonus from a high PP to the strike roll as well as from the right WP. High PP characters shooting an unguided mini-missile could end up with a better chance to hit than using a guided version.

My guess about the retcon was that someone with KS's ear didn't like undodgeable missile volleys. By making guided missiles rare, undodgeable missile volleys become rare as well.

I don't think that's quite right.

ALL the missiles used by the Coalition and most other high-tech forces, are self-guided missiles.

and

It is possible to dodge one, two, or even three missiles. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles.

This is changed in RUE:

Note: Except for multi-warhead and long-range missiles (both rare), most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.

and

Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two, and even three guided missiles. The dodge rules are the same as always. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

As you can see, the two books treat missiles themselves differently. RMB says all missiles, except mini-missiles, are guided. RUE says almost no missiles are guided.

In all discernible cases, when the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, it specifies guided missiles. When the text is specifying guided and unguided missiles, it just says missiles. We must assume that the book says what it says and doesn't say what it doesn't say, and while I am in no way putting KS or PB's editing department in the same category as the framers of the US Constitution, it's still a fair position to hold. If they wanted to specify that it was only guided missiles that were impossible to dodge, they could have said so by simply inserting the word "guided" as in: "However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more guided missiles launched simultaneously." They chose not to. They also chose not to include any errata on the subject in spite of having more than a decade to do so. Since there is no errata on this issue, we must assume that they did, in fact, intend the text to be read as printed.

Fortunately, that means that, rules as printed, the effect of the text is, the change from missiles being guided to missiles being unguided, is irrelevant, and any missile volley of four or more missiles, guided or not, is impossible to dodge. This is further evidenced by the fact that it specifically states that "The dodge rules are the same as always." Meaning that they haven't changed, the way they worked in RMB and GMG is still the same way that they work in RUE.

[Killer Cyborg]

In all discernible cases, when the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, it specifies guided missiles.

You seem to have come to that conclusion only by discounting all cases where "guided" is not specified directly in the same sentence, which doesn't really work.
Basically, you're trying to use your conclusion as a premise to support itself.

I'd say that the case we're discussing is a prime example of "a discernible case where the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, but does NOT specify guided missiles."

Again, the fact that the context of the paragraph is guided missiles is made clear at the start; they don't need to restate "guided" before every use of the word "missiles" in order to maintain that context.

Since there is no errata on this issue, we must assume that they did, in fact, intend the text to be read as printed.

As printed, the statement is referring to the same guided missiles as mentioned earlier.
Otherwise, there would be no reason for the inclusion of the word "guided" in that first part.
Read the passage again:
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two, and even three guided missiles. The dodge rules are the same as always. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

You seem to be saying that the message Palladium intends for us is:
You can dodge up to three GUIDED missiles, but it's impossible to dodge 4+ UNGUIDED missiles.

Which makes no sense.

The only way the paragraph makes sense is as I've pointed out: the word "Guided" is there because the paragraph is talking about guided missiles specifically. If they were talking about missile in general, that word wouldn't make any sense there. If they were talking about unguided missiles, that word wouldn't make any sense there.
It only makes sense when translated as You can dodge up to 3 guided missiles, but not 4+.

[Zer0 Kay]

In all discernible cases, when the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, it specifies guided missiles.

You seem to have come to that conclusion only by discounting all cases where "guided" is not specified directly in the same sentence, which doesn't really work.
Basically, you're trying to use your conclusion as a premise to support itself.

I'd say that the case we're discussing is a prime example of "a discernible case where the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, but does NOT specify guided missiles."

Again, the fact that the context of the paragraph is guided missiles is made clear at the start; they don't need to restate "guided" before every use of the word "missiles" in order to maintain that context.

Since there is no errata on this issue, we must assume that they did, in fact, intend the text to be read as printed.

As printed, the statement is referring to the same guided missiles as mentioned earlier.
Otherwise, there would be no reason for the inclusion of the word "guided" in that first part.
Read the passage again:
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two, and even three guided missiles. The dodge rules are the same as always. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

You seem to be saying that the message Palladium intends of us is:
You can dodge up to three GUIDED missiles, but it's impossible to dodge 4+ UNGUIDED missiles.

Which makes no sense.

The only way the paragraph makes sense is as I've pointed out: the word "Guided" is there because the paragraph is talking about guided missiles specifically. If they were talking about missile in general, that word wouldn't make any sense there. If they were talking about unguided missiles, that word wouldn't make any sense there.
It only makes sense when translated as You can dodge up to 3 guided missiles, but not 4+.

All this is funny because although they copied and pasted most of the RUE missile rules to RT.. they added "and unguided" to the incriminating statement about 2 or three but not four or more guided missiles...

[Tiree]

I'm going to toss another tidbit to the topic:

Rifts Black Market: Page 147

From eye witness reports and battlefield footage, it is obvious that a mini-missile is not quite as effective as most soldiers believe. Beyond the obvious hazard of the mini-missile being shot down before it can strike its target, it has become clear that if a target is assaulted by one, two or even three mini-missiles, there is a chance that it can simply avoid or dodge the incoming warheads! While this may sound unbelievable, it's true. Bandito Arms has recovered pilot video after pilot video clearly showing the target simply sidestepping an incoming missile and letting it go sailing harmlessly past him. This has been witnessed being done by Juicers, Crazies and Cyber-Knights, as well as power armor, aircraft, dragons and monsters. But if the volley is comprised of four or more of mini-missiles, it appears the target is unable to avoid the volley. A four missile volley is the sweet spot, because five or more missiles don't seem to have any greater ratio of success. So Bandito Arms has created the MM-16 pepperbox mini-missile launcher that only fires in volleys of four
mini-missiles.

Now if I am not mistaken - Mini-Missiles have always been unguided.

[guardiandashi]

I'm going to toss another tidbit to the topic:

Rifts Black Market: Page 147

From eye witness reports and battlefield footage, it is obvious that a mini-missile is not quite as effective as most soldiers believe. Beyond the obvious hazard of the mini-missile being shot down before it can strike its target, it has become clear that if a target is assaulted by one, two or even three mini-missiles, there is a chance that it can simply avoid or dodge the incoming warheads! While this may sound unbelievable, it's true. Bandito Arms has recovered pilot video after pilot video clearly showing the target simply sidestepping an incoming missile and letting it go sailing harmlessly past him. This has been witnessed being done by Juicers, Crazies and Cyber-Knights, as well as power armor, aircraft, dragons and monsters. But if the volley is comprised of four or more of mini-missiles, it appears the target is unable to avoid the volley. A four missile volley is the sweet spot, because five or more missiles don't seem to have any greater ratio of success. So Bandito Arms has created the MM-16 pepperbox mini-missile launcher that only fires in volleys of four
mini-missiles.

Now if I am not mistaken - Mini-Missiles have always been unguided.

yes except for some specific exceptions Macross II, and some neruni or possibly phase world ones, its where the enhanced explosive upgrade for the tri hex or something (I don't remember the details) but I want to say it was the upgraded neruni missiles and explosives and gave an option for micro missiles

[Tiree]

True - but with Black Market, you not only have Unguided Missiles able to utilize the rule of an Automatic Hit at 4+ Missiles. You also have Mini-Missiles able utilize the rules as well. Which I believe before, was specifically stated that it was not allowed.

Editing? Pshaw!

[Blue_Lion]

True - but with Black Market, you not only have Unguided Missiles able to utilize the rule of an Automatic Hit at 4+ Missiles. You also have Mini-Missiles able utilize the rules as well. Which I believe before, was specifically stated that it was not allowed.

Editing? Pshaw!

Where was that stated?

[Blue_Lion]

I think the idea behind making most missile unguided is weapon manufactures in a apocalypse skimping on electronics when they could. Not a lack of tech, but people being cheep, as well as ensuring maximum capability.(less risk of incompatible guidance with the launcher.)

I find zero plausibility in the notion that Palladium put that much in-story thought behind the decision.

That really is not much thought and it does explain the change.

[torjones]

In all discernible cases, when the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, it specifies guided missiles.

You seem to have come to that conclusion only by discounting all cases where "guided" is not specified directly in the same sentence, which doesn't really work.
Basically, you're trying to use your conclusion as a premise to support itself.

I'd say that the case we're discussing is a prime example of "a discernible case where the text is referring specifically to guided missiles, but does NOT specify guided missiles."

Again, the fact that the context of the paragraph is guided missiles is made clear at the start; they don't need to restate "guided" before every use of the word "missiles" in order to maintain that context.

Since there is no errata on this issue, we must assume that they did, in fact, intend the text to be read as printed.

As printed, the statement is referring to the same guided missiles as mentioned earlier.
Otherwise, there would be no reason for the inclusion of the word "guided" in that first part.
Read the passage again:
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two, and even three guided missiles. The dodge rules are the same as always. However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

You seem to be saying that the message Palladium intends for us is:
You can dodge up to three GUIDED missiles, but it's impossible to dodge 4+ UNGUIDED missiles.

Which makes no sense.

The only way the paragraph makes sense is as I've pointed out: the word "Guided" is there because the paragraph is talking about guided missiles specifically. If they were talking about missile in general, that word wouldn't make any sense there. If they were talking about unguided missiles, that word wouldn't make any sense there.
It only makes sense when translated as You can dodge up to 3 guided missiles, but not 4+.

What I'm saying is that the rules haven't functionally changed. The wording may have become less clear to some, but in the end, the result is the same. You can dodge up to 3 missiles, but if there are 4 or more missiles, you can't dodge them, missiles being guided or not is irrelevant to your ability to dodge the volley. This is what those words mean when read as printed. It says it from 3 different angles, so you can tell quite clearly that that is the intended meaning. You are inferring a meaning where no inference is necessary, where, in fact, if you make the inference you suggest, you obfuscate the meaning of the entire paragraph. Occam's Razor. Read what's there, not what you think is meant to be there. If what is printed makes logically consistent sense as printed, then that is likely the correct interpretation of what is printed. What is printed is not only logically consistent, it also makes sense. It is also in keeping with previous editions of the rules. When taken all together, you are left at the inescapable conclusion that guidance doesn't matter to the capacity to dodge a missile volley.

[Killer Cyborg]

Occam's Razor. Read what's there, not what you think is meant to be there. If what is printed makes logically consistent sense as printed, then that is likely the correct interpretation of what is printed. What is printed is not only logically consistent, it also makes sense. It is also in keeping with previous editions of the rules. When taken all together, you are left at the inescapable conclusion that guidance doesn't matter to the capacity to dodge a missile volley.

Occam's Razor.
Your conclusion does NOT fit the fact that they included the word "Guided" in the part about dodging three missiles.
My conclusion does.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the idea behind making most missile unguided is weapon manufactures in a apocalypse skimping on electronics when they could. Not a lack of tech, but people being cheep, as well as ensuring maximum capability.(less risk of incompatible guidance with the launcher.)

I find zero plausibility in the notion that Palladium put that much in-story thought behind the decision.

That really is not much thought and it does explain the change.

It is WAY too much thought. It goes in-story for a game rule, and that's not Palladium's M/O.

[torjones]

Occam's Razor. Read what's there, not what you think is meant to be there. If what is printed makes logically consistent sense as printed, then that is likely the correct interpretation of what is printed. What is printed is not only logically consistent, it also makes sense. It is also in keeping with previous editions of the rules. When taken all together, you are left at the inescapable conclusion that guidance doesn't matter to the capacity to dodge a missile volley.

Occam's Razor.
Your conclusion does NOT fit the fact that they included the word "Guided" in the part about dodging three missiles.
My conclusion does.

Why would you take into account that which is irrelevant? You acknowledge that it's there, you acknowledge that it's not relevant, and move on to that which is relevant.

[Killer Cyborg]

Occam's Razor. Read what's there, not what you think is meant to be there. If what is printed makes logically consistent sense as printed, then that is likely the correct interpretation of what is printed. What is printed is not only logically consistent, it also makes sense. It is also in keeping with previous editions of the rules. When taken all together, you are left at the inescapable conclusion that guidance doesn't matter to the capacity to dodge a missile volley.

Occam's Razor.
Your conclusion does NOT fit the fact that they included the word "Guided" in the part about dodging three missiles.
My conclusion does.

Why would you take into account that which is irrelevant? You acknowledge that it's there, you acknowledge that it's not relevant, and move on to that which is relevant.

lol
Dismissing facts as irresistible the opposite of Occam’s Razor!
If you want to claim that it’s not relevant, give some evidence in support of that claim.
Otherwise, it’s just as I’ve said—it provides context for the paragraph.
That’s how paragraphs work.

[eliakon]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

That rule IS there, yes.
This does not mean that it’s s clarification; a lot of Palladium writers like to legislate from the bench, as it were.

If that book is the most recent discussion of the subject, I’d say that it establishes what the rules currently are—NOT what the rules in RUE or other previous books were.

[Warshield73]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

Thanks I was looking for this. Black Market Book pg. 147.

I noticed this a few months ago when I was putting weapons together for a convention game. I was thinking of this as an instance of bad editing.
First, it talks about mini-missiles being shot down which I could swear it says someone they can not be shot down.
Second, it is the only mini-missile launcher, on vehicle or handheld, that says the four mini-missile volley can't be dodged.

No matter what we think of these rules or how they are written everyone has to admit that they are poorly written.

I have always treated unguided missiles in a simple way. If you can move out of the blast radius before they impact you can dodge. Guided missiles are different since they will track.

Yes it is a house rule, but since the rules are unclear I think that is all we can do.

[Zer0 Kay]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

Don't know why that is Now it is back to being stupid missile rules. What reason is there for four explosive devices that travel in a straight line to be undodgeable? Why aren't four grenades or four artillery shells or four bullets undodgeable, even if they are launched from a multi barreled system that shoots them simultaneously. The missiles are accurate enough that apparently the entire volley will strike a man sized target. So if they're that tight they should be dodgeable unlike an artillery barrage which deviates making the target area larger and less dodgeable.

[Zer0 Kay]

Occam's Razor. Read what's there, not what you think is meant to be there. If what is printed makes logically consistent sense as printed, then that is likely the correct interpretation of what is printed. What is printed is not only logically consistent, it also makes sense. It is also in keeping with previous editions of the rules. When taken all together, you are left at the inescapable conclusion that guidance doesn't matter to the capacity to dodge a missile volley.

Occam's Razor.
Your conclusion does NOT fit the fact that they included the word "Guided" in the part about dodging three missiles.
My conclusion does.

Why would you take into account that which is irrelevant? You acknowledge that it's there, you acknowledge that it's not relevant, and move on to that which is relevant.

lol
Dismissing facts as irresistible the opposite of Occam’s Razor!
If you want to claim that it’s not relevant, give some evidence in support of that claim.
Otherwise, it’s just as I’ve said—it provides context for the paragraph.
That’s how paragraphs work.

What? No they don't, they work by the reader picking and choosing what he wants to accept.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm going to toss another tidbit to the topic:

Rifts Black Market: Page 147

From eye witness reports and battlefield footage, it is obvious that a mini-missile is not quite as effective as most soldiers believe. Beyond the obvious hazard of the mini-missile being shot down before it can strike its target, it has become clear that if a target is assaulted by one, two or even three mini-missiles, there is a chance that it can simply avoid or dodge the incoming warheads! While this may sound unbelievable, it's true. Bandito Arms has recovered pilot video after pilot video clearly showing the target simply sidestepping an incoming missile and letting it go sailing harmlessly past him. This has been witnessed being done by Juicers, Crazies and Cyber-Knights, as well as power armor, aircraft, dragons and monsters. But if the volley is comprised of four or more of mini-missiles, it appears the target is unable to avoid the volley. A four missile volley is the sweet spot, because five or more missiles don't seem to have any greater ratio of success. So Bandito Arms has created the MM-16 pepperbox mini-missile launcher that only fires in volleys of four
mini-missiles.

Now if I am not mistaken - Mini-Missiles have always been unguided.

yes except for some specific exceptions Macross II, and some neruni or possibly phase world ones, its where the enhanced explosive upgrade for the tri hex or something (I don't remember the details) but I want to say it was the upgraded neruni missiles and explosives and gave an option for micro missiles

Micro Missiles are not Mini-Missiles

[dreicunan]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

I remember reading that and thinking, "Carmen clearly doesn't know how the missile rules work" and that he thought that mini-missiles were guided. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to be surprised that Juicers, Crazies, and cyber-knights can side-step dumb-fired missiles. I would never have thought that anyone would read that weapon and think that it was ret-conning the rule on missile volleys. That is especially because the weapon system says that it gives "a bonus of +3 to strike for the mini-missiles." If the mini-missiles get the bonus to strike, they must be making the strike roll, and that means they are guided, or at least were thought to be by Carmen when he wrote that section. (If this weapon was actually from Matthew or Kevin S, hopefully someone will let us know.)

The proof of that is on page 149, where we are told that Skyhammer mortar shells "lack a mini-missile's propellant reserves and guidance systems." So Black Market is most definitely not retconning the volley rule only applying to guided missiles. If it retconned anything it was making mini-missiles guided!

[Blue_Lion]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

That rule IS there, yes.
This does not mean that it’s s clarification; a lot of Palladium writers like to legislate from the bench, as it were.

If that book is the most recent discussion of the subject, I’d say that it establishes what the rules currently are—NOT what the rules in RUE or other previous books were.

Are we limited to discussing rules from one book or are we discussing currant cannon.
the question was about Rifts unguided missiles being unable to be dodge in volley of 4.
The counter presented was that rifts rules referred to guided.
The rule in Black market negates that counter.
So why that leads us back to why are unguided missiles volleys of 4 or greater undodgeable.
So it kind the point of the debate, not was the rule at X time but about how the rules are.

[Blue_Lion]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

That is especially because the weapon system says that it gives "a bonus of +3 to strike for the mini-missiles." If the mini-missiles get the bonus to strike, they must be making the strike roll, and that means they are guided, or at least were thought to be by Carmen when he wrote that section. (If this weapon was actually from Matthew or Kevin S, hopefully someone will let us know.)

Sorry but that statement does not prove they are guided. Dumb fire missiles can benefit from bonuses of the launcher.
That is like saying a wilks laser rifle gets a +1 so it the rifle making the strike roll, that means they are guided.
RUE 364
No Missile Bonus to Strike: Unless indicated otherwise in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle or launcher description, mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided and do not get a bonus to strike. Some launch systems or additional targeting system may provide a + 1 to +3 bonus to strike, but even that is rather uncommon.


That does describe the launcher giving a bonus to the missile, does not seam to be talking about guided missiles as there is no refence of guided missiles.

[dreicunan]

Just as an aside here...
... the rules are clarified in Black Market
We have the Black market 4tube mini-missile launcher that explicitly states that as it is a volley of 4 missiles it can not be dodged. And since Mini-Missiles are not guided it tells us flat out that 4 unguided missiles can not be dodged.

That is especially because the weapon system says that it gives "a bonus of +3 to strike for the mini-missiles." If the mini-missiles get the bonus to strike, they must be making the strike roll, and that means they are guided, or at least were thought to be by Carmen when he wrote that section. (If this weapon was actually from Matthew or Kevin S, hopefully someone will let us know.)

Sorry but that statement does not prove they are guided. Dumb fire missiles can benefit from bonuses of the launcher.
That is like saying a wilks laser rifle gets a +1 so it the rifle making the strike roll, that means they are guided.
RUE 364
No Missile Bonus to Strike: Unless indicated otherwise in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle or launcher description, mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided and do not get a bonus to strike. Some launch systems or additional targeting system may provide a + 1 to +3 bonus to strike, but even that is rather uncommon.


That does describe the launcher giving a bonus to the missile, does not seam to be talking about guided missiles as there is no refence of guided missiles.

First, wording matters. Wilks rifles provide a bonus to strike on an aimed shot. A quick review of that and others has turned up no references to granting a bonus to the laser blast to strike. Nor is there any context for that. We do, however, know that there are missiles out there that do roll to strike instead of the PC.

Second, finish reading my post for the proof that the weapons section in Rifts: Black Market was written by someone who thought that mini-missiles were guided.